Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Discussing "Explore Evolution"

Posted: Jan. 22 2008,08:33

My work network blocks access to image hosting sites, so I can't post the evidence, but our ol' buddy Paul was here again this morning. And the Explore Evolution debate page is still empty.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

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Posted: Jan. 22 2008,20:10

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ Jan. 22 2008,09:33)

My work network blocks access to image hosting sites, so I can't post the evidence, but our ol' buddy Paul was here again this morning. And the Explore Evolution debate page is still empty.

I don't get much time to check in here anymore. I show up, take a few shots, and I'm out the door. But I do click on the link to the main page and see who's visiting. Haven't seen Paul yet. It's a trophy I have missed.

It's kind of sad. Paul knows we've got his number, can't think of anything to say, but also can't give up the stupid beliefs that got him in this situation to begin with. Poor guy. Too bad we can't give him a backbone transplant, so he has the resilience to deal with reality.

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Posted: Jan. 31 2008,10:40

Woot!!!!eleventyleven1111

Paul Nelson sighting!

Quote

36 guests, 8 Public Members and 3 Anonymous Members [ View Complete List ]
>Albatrossity2 >JAM >J-Dog >creeky belly >Paul Nelson >Jake >Richardthughes >olegt

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
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As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Wesley R. Elsberry

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Posted: Jan. 31 2008,14:50

Some time ago, Paul suggested that there be a competition to try out "design detection" procedures. He talked about setting up strings of various sorts that would either be designed or random.

Ian Musgrave has something of the sort going now.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

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Posted: Jan. 31 2008,20:25

a few years ago i think i suggested a challenge to the IDers. I'd supply 10 strings of 10 digits, and Salvador could tell me which ones were designed and which were random. It would be great because they would fail utterly, but they'd excuse themselves by saying that by selecting the strings I'd designed them all, and they only said some weren't designed because they got false negatives of the kind they've admitted to before.

Paul Nelson

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,08:12

I sent the design detection experiment proposal to Jeff Shallit, and he said it wasn't worth doing. �I think I also sent the proposal to Wesley. �The idea was to have a large archive of bitstrings, of varying lengths, identified only by curation tags, and to ask people to pick out which strings were intelligently caused, and how they discovered that. �(I'd be happy to send the original proposal, as a pdf, to anyone who's interested: contact me at [EMAIL=nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu.]nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu.[/EMAIL]) �Jeff's reasons for debunking the idea struck me as pretty good, although right now I can't remember which was the most compelling.

Since then, some friends have come up with a much better design detection experiment idea -- one that might actually teach us something. �One of Jeff's objections to the bitstring proposal was that the experiment would do little to move the ID debate along. �We're refining the new proposal, and then I'll send it along to Jeff for critique.

Since this is the Explore Evolution (EE) thread, here's an update. �I got no nibbles at Discovery for my suggestion, late last summer, of a moderation-free, or moderation-light, forum to discuss EE. �I've been stopping in here periodically to see if new critiques of EE have been posted, but mostly, the thread is comments about me stopping by, which -- although providing entertainment for ATBC readers -- doesn't help me much as an EE author. �But, after a very busy fall 2007 travel & lecture schedule, I've got some time in my Chicago office, so [ta da] am starting my own webpage and blog.

Yes, I know -- just what the world needs, another blog. �I'll have a sub-page there for EE discussion. �The second edition of EE should be out fairly soon, with corrections, revisions, etc.

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,09:04

Quote

I've been stopping in here periodically to see if new critiques of EE have been posted, but mostly, the thread is comments about me stopping by, which -- although providing entertainment for ATBC readers -- doesn't help me much as an EE author. But, after a very busy fall 2007 travel & lecture schedule, I've got some time in my Chicago office, so [ta da] am starting my own webpage and blog.

Yes, I know -- just what the world needs, another blog. I'll have a sub-page there for EE discussion. The second edition of EE should be out fairly soon, with corrections, revisions, etc.

Paul

Sorry to hear that you were disappointed in the quality of the questions on this thread, and that they were not helpful to you as an author. However, it is likely that the dearth of new topics/questions here was due to the fact that you hadn't yet managed to reply to the backlog of old topics/questions here. If you had managed to do that during your stops here, it would have been appreciated (and maybe even helpful).

So here is an older question. Can you tell us if the misleading characterization of toxicologist Paul Chien as a "marine paleobiologist" has been corrected in the second edition?

thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Erasmus, FCD

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,10:41

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 01 2008,08:12)

I sent the design detection experiment proposal to Jeff Shallit, and he said it wasn't worth doing. �I think I also sent the proposal to Wesley. �The idea was to have a large archive of bitstrings, of varying lengths, identified only by curation tags, and to ask people to pick out which strings were intelligently caused, and how they discovered that. �(I'd be happy to send the original proposal, as a pdf, to anyone who's interested: contact me at [EMAIL=nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu.]nelsonpa@alumni.uchicago.edu.[/EMAIL]) �Jeff's reasons for debunking the idea struck me as pretty good, although right now I can't remember which was the most compelling.

Since then, some friends have come up with a much better design detection experiment idea -- one that might actually teach us something. �One of Jeff's objections to the bitstring proposal was that the experiment would do little to move the ID debate along. �We're refining the new proposal, and then I'll send it along to Jeff for critique.

Since this is the Explore Evolution (EE) thread, here's an update. �I got no nibbles at Discovery for my suggestion, late last summer, of a moderation-free, or moderation-light, forum to discuss EE. �I've been stopping in here periodically to see if new critiques of EE have been posted, but mostly, the thread is comments about me stopping by, which -- although providing entertainment for ATBC readers -- doesn't help me much as an EE author. �But, after a very busy fall 2007 travel & lecture schedule, I've got some time in my Chicago office, so [ta da] am starting my own webpage and blog.

Yes, I know -- just what the world needs, another blog. �I'll have a sub-page there for EE discussion. �The second edition of EE should be out fairly soon, with corrections, revisions, etc.

Oh Paul, I suppose while you were stopping in here periodically and checking for critiques you didn't notice that Lenny Flank tore the EE rag apart just a few pages ago. You have yet to respond to any of that criticism.

You can't just start over. Lenny isn't around here anymore, or at least quit posting, but does that exonerate your inability to meet that criticism?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell.�Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

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I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Wesley R. Elsberry

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,10:47

The second edition should be simple to produce. Picking the right font and size for, "Never mind", would be about the extent of it.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,11:56

Well, despite Paul's good intentions, somehow he managed to lurk here again for 15-20 minutes this morning without leaving a single comment or answering a simple question.

Maybe he will answer them on his new blog. I wonder if it will be "moderation-free", or if it will conform to the standard DI model of bannination and thread removal.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

J. O'Donnell

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,12:06

Quote

Since this is the Explore Evolution (EE) thread, here's an update. I got no nibbles at Discovery for my suggestion, late last summer, of a moderation-free, or moderation-light, forum to discuss EE.

I for one am deeply shocked and surprised by this.

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My blog: Animacules

hooligans

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Posted: Feb. 01 2008,21:15

Paul,

How come there is no discussion of EE at the webpage? I thought the whole point was for the book to foster debate. How is that teacher from Tacoma doing using the new text? How come his students are not posting questions and debating on the website? Are any other public schools using the text? Why is the second edition already in the works?

Paul Nelson

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Posted: Feb. 04 2008,08:43

Hi Alb, and others,

Chien's description has been changed to "biologist."

The second edition corrects errors in the first, updates the bibliography, etc. Every book contains mistakes, and EE is no exception (I hear you tittering back there).

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Posted: Feb. 04 2008,08:54

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 04 2008,08:43)

Hi Alb, and others,

Chien's description has been changed to "biologist."

Paul

Since the original statement in EE read thusly

Quote

This point has been further emphasized by a recent Precambrian fossil find near Chengjiang, China. Scientists there recently discovered incredibly preserved microscopic fossils of sponge embryos. (Sponges are obviously soft-bodied. Their embryos are small and soft-bodied, too�other than their tiny spicules.) Paul Chien, a marine paleobiologist at the University of San Francisco argues that this discovery poses a grave difficulty for the artifact hypothesis.

and since Paul Chien has NO credentials in paleontology, how is this new wording any less misleading?

Why didn't you change it to "Paul Chien, a toxicologist..."?

Or does Paul suddenly have a bunch of peer-reviewed publications in the field of paleontology? I looked in the web of science, and I didn't find any. Perhaps you can point me to those.

thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

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Posted: Feb. 05 2008,14:15

Even though Paul has appeared here at least a couple of times since I posted my last question about the peer-reviewed paleontology papers of Paul Chien, toxicologist and DI Fellow, he appears to be unable to generate an answer. So perhaps it is time to remind him of a few more questions about EE, in the hopes that he can address them soon.

Here are a few favorites from Steviepinhead's list, dated July 20, 2007, just before Nelson went to Rome and dropped off the radar screen here. Click on the link above to see lots more.

stevestory:

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Paul, is Exploring Evolution going to contain a single new argument we haven't seen in previous creationist 'textbooks'?

Lenny:

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Paul, since creationism is already illegal to teach in public schools, what utility do you see for your, uh, "science textbook" . . . ?

Wesley R. Elsberry:

Quote

Let's ask the Wikipedia question: is Moneymaker's status as an author of science curricula verifiable?

if you could start with those, Paul, it would be greatly appreciated. Or you can talk about Chien's credentials as an expert in pre-Cambrian fossils...

[chirp chirp]

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

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Posted: Feb. 06 2008,00:41

Ahhh! I didn't get the Paul Nelson sighting. I'm so pissed off! I've been drinking green tea all goddam day....

Lou FCD

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Posted: Feb. 06 2008,08:07

Quote

29 guests, 12 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members [ View Complete List ]
>Lou FCD >Shirley Knott >keiths >Tracy P. Hamilton >Mister DNA >Paul Nelson >Jkrebs >Richard Simons >olegt >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >MillstoneCam >Nuackance

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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Venus Mousetrap

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Posted: Feb. 07 2008,07:20

Paul Nelson sighting! on the Panda's Thumb, with added irony!

Quote

Dan Brooks wrote, about my talk:

Quote

Nelson replied that you �cannot presuppose Mom� in order to provide an evolutionary explanation for ontogeny.

Which is true. Brooks explains how the maternal environment (MOM) establishes the conditions necessary for normal development in C. elegans � but that was exactly my point at the Boston meeting. An adult nematode is required to specify a nematode embryo. So whence the adult nematode?

Another nematode, via development. Eventually, in evolutionary (phylogenetic) time, the ontogeny that specifies the form of C. elegans, or any other metazoan, must be constructed de novo. Natural selection cannot do that, for reasons having to do with the logic of selection itself.

I hope Dan Brooks will respond.

my emphasis.

EDIT: to add URL

Timothy McDougald

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Posted: Feb. 07 2008,18:19

Quote (afarensis @ July 17 2007,18:43)

Quote (Paul Nelson @ July 17 2007,05:23)

Afarensis,

Do you have a copy of EE? The passage in question refers not to any claim about linear increase in size, but to the practice of depicting fossil taxa on the same scale (in illustrations), without informing the reader that the actual specimens vary considerably in size.

Yeah, up until you actually read it. The change in scale would be a pointless criticism of the reptile/mammal transition - unless one thinks the transition was based on an increase in size. The piece I quoted implies that this is the case, particularly the part about "...features appear closer in size than they really are, and creates the impression of a close genealogical relationship..." This is false. Traits characterizing the reptile/mammal transition are not based on similarity in size. Rather the reptile mammal transition is based on things like the evolution of the secondary palate, evolution of the mammalian ear from the reptilian jaw, evolution of the incisors, canines and check teeth -along with specific patterns of occlusion- , evolution of a bony skull from a skull mainly formed by cartilage, changes in the pectoral and pelvic girdles towards more upright posture, etc. So the question is what does the fact the scientists produce a few pictures in different scales (which even EE admits is clearly indicated by the folks producing the pictures) have to do with, well, anything?

I am still waiting for Paul to answer the question above. I'm hoping the answer will be more meaningful than:

Quote

An adult nematode is required to specify a nematode embryo. So whence the adult nematode?

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Posted: Feb. 09 2008,13:33

Paul was slumming here again today.

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>Albatrossity2 >MillstoneCam >Louis >Richardthughes >Mister DNA >J-Dog >Paul Nelson >JAM >Daniel Smith >Doc Bill >Jkrebs

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

slpage

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Posted: Feb. 10 2008,14:47

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 04 2008,08:54)

Quote (Paul Nelson @ Feb. 04 2008,08:43)

Hi Alb, and others,

Chien's description has been changed to "biologist."

Paul

Since the original statement in EE read thusly � �

Quote

This point has been further emphasized by a recent Precambrian fossil find near Chengjiang, China. Scientists there recently discovered incredibly preserved microscopic fossils of sponge embryos. (Sponges are obviously soft-bodied. Their embryos are small and soft-bodied, too�other than their tiny spicules.) Paul Chien, a marine paleobiologist at the University of San Francisco argues that this discovery poses a grave difficulty for the artifact hypothesis.

and since Paul Chien has NO credentials in paleontology, how is this new wording any less misleading?

Why didn't you change it to "Paul Chien, a toxicologist..."?

Or does Paul suddenly have a bunch of peer-reviewed publications in the field of paleontology? I looked in the web of science, and I didn't find any. Perhaps you can point me to those.

thanks

It seems sort of like referring to Wells as either an 'embryologist' or a 'molecular biologist' depending on which one will get more traction, while neither ir really all that accurate.

Creationists of all stripes have a long and sordid history of embellishing their credentials to make their commentary seem more relevant.

I wasn't aware of Chien's mischaracterization. Must have just been a little editorial mistake - like Paul Nelson said, all texts have them. But it is odd that this editorial mistake in a text has been used in several other venues. Hmmmm....

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Posted: Feb. 11 2008,12:52

Another drive-by without an answer.

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>Albatrossity2 >Henry J >JAM >Mister DNA >keiths >Erasmus, FCD >SpeedDemon >bfish >ppb >Paul Nelson >Raevmo >PTET >Mr_Christopher >Richardthughes >mitschlag >MillstoneCam >Paul Flocken

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

hooligans

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Posted: Feb. 16 2008,17:16

Quote

27 guests, 9 Public Members and 1 Anonymous Members � [ View Complete List ]
>hooligans >keiths >Advocatus Diaboli >Lou FCD >Paul Nelson >olegt >Henry J >kbck >oldmanintheskydidntdoit

Jasper

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Posted: Feb. 16 2008,18:36

Some advice for Paul:

Henry J

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Posted: Feb. 18 2008,11:37

I'm not sure that "log out" would take one's name off the list of those who've been active in the last 15 minutes.

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Posted: Feb. 23 2008,08:43

Quote

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>Albatrossity2 >rhmc >fusilier >Paul Nelson >Maya >Louis >mikedr >oldmanintheskydidntdoit

Paul, this is getting boring. If you are here, why don't you answer questions?

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
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As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

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Posted: Feb. 27 2008,03:13

Paul, since you're reading this, we kind of want to know, why haven't there been mass firings at the Discovery Institute? You'd think at some point, whoever is signing the checks over there would realize he's throwing good money after bad. Will 2008 be the year? I mean, I wouldn't say the wheels have come off the ID wagon...I'd say the wheels came off, then the wagon caught on fire, and the horse fell down the Grand Canyon. Time to get rid of the deadwood and get some better fake scientists in there.

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Posted: Feb. 27 2008,08:05

Another drive-by, about 7 this morning.

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>Albatrossity2 >olegt >JonF >Louis >hereoisreal >lkeithlu >Richard Simons >Paul Nelson >ERV >oldmanintheskydidntdoit >Lou FCD >Reciprocating Bill >snorkild

Y'know, Paul, if you'd just take on one question each time you visited, you might at least start to whittle down that pile of questions. If you keep up this uncommunicative pattern, pretty soon the pile might seem insurmountable...

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
� � � � � � � � � � � � - Pattiann Rogers

Lou FCD

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