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Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,21:00   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Feb. 27 2008,20:25)
     
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The stuff from Dave is so confused I don't really know where to begin!

Thankyou, Louis, for trying anyway.  You did actually tell me what I needed to know.

I think I can follow on.  DT is reducing all of chemistry to statistical mechanics, a radical and unjustified oversimplification, as exemplified by his statement here
       
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Obviously you have no understanding of the hierarchy in science. Biology is explained by chemistry. Chemistry is explained by physics. Physics is explained by law and statistical mechanics.

Atoms don't just combine in completely random ways.  If they did chemistry would probably not be possible.  Chemistry is more than the random tumbling of atoms; atoms bond only in definite(though many and varied) ways.  Though statistical mechanics may determine when atoms have the chance to get together (and the thermo of the situation the energy available before the reactions) once together they follow laws that are far more dominant than the stat/mech that brought them together.  Of course if DT gives up that stat/mech is dominant then he will have to give up that complex molecule are impossible.


Equilibrium statistical mechanics actually determines the "laws" as well.  Equilibrium assumes that the colliding around has gone on so long that everything that can happen, with probability X%, has happened X% of the time.  The most likely configuration of atoms and molecules, complete with how the energy is partitioned, is equal to the time average, so that is what is computed instead.

   
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When I read this piece of Dave's my first thought is that Dave knows nothing about the physics or chemistry he pontificates upon.

After almost nine hundred pages you didn't know this yet? :p

 That you still have correct.

       
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The Wikipedia article you quote is bang on in one sense.


Quote


I wouldn't read to much into that line from wiki.  It was dangerously close to a quote mine.  I really happened on it by chance.  I only wanted to refresh myself on the stat/mech as I only thought of it as the science that subsumed the kinetic theory of gases.



That is a pretty good way of looking at it.

 
Quote


 Unlike DT I know what I don't know. I ran over that line and it almost seemed too perfect a statement in isolation.  Especially since DT seems to be fond of the words "'polymeric amino and nucleic acids".  Your explanation on cyclisation placed it in context far better than the wiki article did.


If DT would think about it, proteins have to "overcome" the massive number of ways it can be folded to find the one actual structure.  Obviously this does not violate the SLOT, since it happens with regularity.  Protein folding is a hot area of research, you would think that ID should be out there clamoring that we shouldn't study it, because uniquely folded proteins are so unlikely.  Perhaps a "Folding at Home - NOT!" project?

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Tracy P. Hamilton,
       
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Is this a request for a stat thermo lecture?

Umm, no.  But I am all ears if you are game.  I knew DT was using stat/mech in an illegitimate manner, but did not know how to state it well.  I may still not be doing so, but I thank the two of you for your effort.
       
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Pierre deGennes got the nobel prize for that work.

REAL SCIENCE!  Amazing what real science looks like when contrasted to the tard.


You asked for it!  The calculation of thermodynamics for molecules is based on the fact that atoms and molecules have quantized energy levels.  The bonding energy is calculated by solving the electronic Schrodinger equation for E(el).  Even at zero degrees Kelvin, there is vibrational energy, computed by the quantum harmonic oscillator problem.  Add that to E(el) to get E(0). At finite temperatures, other energy levels get populated, the ratio of a particular excited state to the ground state is given by the Boltzmann distribution. The energy levels are for the translational energy (particle in a box quantum problem), vibrational energy (harmonic oscillator already mentioned), and rotoational energy levels (rigid rotor approximation - spherical harmonic quantum problem).  One creates an ensemble of all possible ways to partition a fixed total E in a fixed volume V with a fixed number of particles N.  This is called the microcanonical ensemble.  (Other ensembles exist, for example the canonical exist where total E is replaced by the average energy, characterized by temperature T).  The probabilites of each microstate is given by the partition function, which is then related to thermodynamic variables.

See wikipedia for some of the terms for equations.

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
jeffox



Posts: 671
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,21:30   

Woo hoo!!   It's Schroedinger's ceiling cat!!!   :)  :)

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,23:53   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Feb. 27 2008,22:00)
Quote
When I read this piece of Dave's my first thought is that Dave knows nothing about the physics or chemistry he pontificates upon.

After almost nine hundred pages you didn't know this yet? :p

I had to scroll up and verify that this was true. Wow. 900 pages of AtBC Uncommonly Dense thread. It's been a hell of a time. I remember years ago, when I would go over there and just post their top topics here, to try to get discussion going. I'm happy to see that my baby has turned into a monster.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,11:37   

Quote
Wow. 900 pages of AtBC Uncommonly Dense thread.


It's like the Energizer Bunny, it just keeps going and going and going...

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,12:29   

A response concerning Stan Ulam and SciCre

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,13:03   

dacook thinks he knows how to intelligently design animals

   
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She has a housecat, (felis-catus) named Chester of whom she is very fond. He seemed a good starting point. We designed several adaptations to Chester to enable him to thrive in the arctic tundra. First, and most obviously, we made him all white to blend into the snow.

Duh.  They thought of that all by themselves.

   
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Then we regressed his legs to vestigial stumps


Cats are carnivores and therefore predators.  There are already animals in the arctic that are missing their original quadrupedal legs.  They are called seals.  And from the point of view of arctic predators they have another name.  Prey.  Any animal that can't outrun predators is toast.  Some predator this cat will be.

   
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and flattened him out dramatically so he could hug the ground and better avoid being picked off by predators,


There is a well known relationship between internal volume, surface area, and heat loss.  Making your vol/s.a. ratio as large as possible is a good thing as it conserves heat.  Making your cat broad and flat lowers the ratio and increases heat loss.  Making him flat to the ground with a large contact patch also increases heat loss as air is a better insulator than the ground the cat would be in contact with.  Not mentioned is if the cat has belly fur, but never mind as fur is a better insulator if it is fluffy and full of air instead of flat between the cat and the ground with all the air crushed out of it.

   
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as well as stay low out of the wind. His species is therefore felis-flatus. (That’s “flatus” as in flat to the ground, rhymes with “catus” not the other meaning which my son already had fun with.)


Polar bears and arctic foxes don't seem to mind the wind much.  Must not be that much of a problem.  Of course they really are adapted to the cold.

   
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For locomotion we gave his edges the ability to undulate, like a Manta ray’s. So he gets around by flapping along the ground.


This sounds like suspiciously like flying.  Lots of energy expended to heave oneself into the air only to fall by to the ground.  Well maybe not flying.  I think Mr Cook is remembering something else:  Barbarella's skiing manta ray.


   
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This action also helps him clear snow from the burrows of his prey. He doesn’t have to be fast as he can’t outrun predators anyway, and his own prey is small rodents that live in the ground.


Funny, arctic foxes dig with their claws.

   
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To extract them he positions himself over their burrows and runs his very long (heavily modified) tongue down the hole, wraps it around their little necks, and pulls them into his mouth.


Has anybody yet found an aardvark in the arctic?

   
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When it’s very cold he can roll up into a tube to conserve heat, with his soft belly deep inside a cocoon of fluffy insulating fur.


Ah, so that is how he stays warm.  Of course, he won't be doing much hunting when he is rolled into a crepe.  And how does he stay warm when he is hunting?


   
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My daughter thought he should be able to fight back if attacked, rather than just huddle up, and so added spikes to his tail, so he can whip it up and clobber anything that steps on him or tries to bite him.


Arctic animals either have a minimal tail to conserve heat or a large fluffy, bushy tail to serve as a blanket.  This tail would be a source of heat loss(spikes of horn, bone, or keratin), and would also serve to entangle the cat in any vegetation he tried to pass through.  Why is vegetation important?  Because anyplace where small animals burrow(this cat's intended prey) will by necessity not be in permafrost or ice covered areas(no burrows possible) and vegetation would be a norm.  Arctic vegetation that comes to mind is normally low to the ground, perfect for snagging spikes.  Spikes would also be limited in size so something as small as a cat flapping on the ground could move them.  Polar bears would probably think of them as appetizers.

Now granted this was a school exercise by a child, no doubt intended to foster creativity and imagination as opposed to critical thought about whether the adaptations make sense.  But if the entirety of the biosphere is allegedly created by intelligence then why do we not see these adaptations already?  Why is this nothing more than a proud father showing off his lack of critical thought?

A cool school exercise I ran over where there is an actual experiment, not simply thought exercises about what must be(the essence of IDC).
http://library.thinkquest.org/3500/Activities.html#adapt

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,13:21   

Quote
Polar bears and arctic foxes don't seem to mind the wind much.  Must not be that much of a problem.  Of course they really are adapted to the cold.

I posted there and suggested that they should look at how animals like stoats and weasels adapt to the cold climes and a similar prey (essentially voles).  It was disappeared (I think because he didn't recognise the tongue-in-cheek tone of my second post).

Their biology's crap, but who cares? It was a fun post, and I thought it would be nice to prod them into finding out about real biology.  And who could resist the link I gave to cycling lemmings?

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,13:51   

Arkwright's favourite nephew is back:

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My essay  “How Evolution will be Taught Someday” approaches the debate by saying, ok, maybe evolution does give the appearance of natural causes, and we’ll even let you call it a “natural” process, as long as you don’t claim you know what those natural causes are. Then what?

Conclude Goddidit?

EDIT: because FtK might return

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,13:59   



Phhwooooar!

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,16:48   



Moved a couple comments from this morning to the BW.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,17:17   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 28 2008,13:21)
It was a fun post,...

It was indeed a fun post, but I want to know how a child's school exercise somehow supports the intelligent design in the universe assertion.  Where's the beef?

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,17:29   

Quote (Paul Flocken @ Feb. 28 2008,13:03)
dacook thinks he knows how to intelligently design animals

Ha!  Check the name of the sockpuppet with the first comment.  

He'll see your arctic pussy and raise you a folkface.

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,18:03   

BarryA comes so close.

Quote
The important evidence does not appear to be in conflict. The issue is not whether it is warmer or cooler in any particular place (such as your back yard). The issue is whether on average across the globe temps are dropping. As to this issue, there is no conflict. On average across the globe temps are dropping.


It isn't just averages across geographical space but also across time.  As Turncoat said in another thread:  one data point does not a trend make.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,04:56   

Granville Sewell opines:  
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In any debate, it is always good strategy to acknowledge your opponent’s strongest points up front, effectively taking those points off the table.


Good idea!  Here's ID's strongest points:  
Quote





Now that they're off the table ...

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,05:23   

Is Underwhelming Evidence completely dead?  The last twenty three posts were authored by Denise OLeary.  Two of them have a single response and one has eight.  The rest?  Nada.  What gives?

Most interesting title for a post: "And so what if Grandma was an ape?", asks the "Toronto-based journalist; grandmother; Roman Catholic Christian."  Interestingly, she puts down Chuck Norris with her reply.

  
steve_h



Posts: 544
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,05:48   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 29 2008,11:23)
Is Underwhelming Evidence completely dead?  The last twenty three posts were authored by Denise OLeary.  

It's a link farm. Its only role now (now?) is to lead the gullible to the many places where they can buy her book(s).

edit: moved apostrophe from "It's" to "Its"

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,11:37   

A voice crying in the wilderness.
I think it is legitimate to ask who really is the "Isaac Newton of Information Theory" : DO'L is close to 1000 points at Overwhelmingboredom while the WMAD is still at -15.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,12:50   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 29 2008,11:37)
A voice crying in the wilderness.
I think it is legitimate to ask who really is the "Isaac Newton of Information Theory" : DO'L is close to 1000 points at Overwhelmingboredom while the WMAD is still at -15.

Is there a person famous X for link farming?  We could call Denyse the "X of ID theory".

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"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,13:53   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Feb. 29 2008,12:50)
Quote (sparc @ Feb. 29 2008,11:37)
A voice crying in the wilderness.
I think it is legitimate to ask who really is the "Isaac Newton of Information Theory" : DO'L is close to 1000 points at Overwhelmingboredom while the WMAD is still at -15.

Is there a person famous X for link farming?  We could call Denyse the "X of ID theory".

I think PTET's icon is famous for having something to do with crosses....

It's actually quite telling that you were able to link to Denyse to a cross, as she is, like all ID Fellows, a martyr... just ask them.  

Personally, I disagree with her being characterized as a martyr.  IMO, she SHOULD be crucified for her many and continuous crimes against the English Language.

Look what just happened to William F Buckley... he just couldn't take her posting anymore.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:00   

I don't know why but I assiciate DO'L with dead fish rather than with a cross.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:17   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 29 2008,14:00)
I don't know why but I assiciate DO'L with dead fish rather than with a cross.

Denyse = Dead Fish On A Cross?

Her Usual Arguments = Jello On A Cross?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:27   

Quote (sparc @ Feb. 29 2008,12:00)
I don't know why but I assiciate DO'L with dead fish rather than with a cross.

I associate her with baby Jesus crying.  Because that's what happens every time she writes something.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
tsig



Posts: 339
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:39   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 29 2008,05:23)
Is Underwhelming Evidence completely dead?  The last twenty three posts were authored by Denise OLeary.  Two of them have a single response and one has eight.  The rest?  Nada.  What gives?

Most interesting title for a post: "And so what if Grandma was an ape?", asks the "Toronto-based journalist; grandmother; Roman Catholic Christian."  Interestingly, she puts down Chuck Norris with her reply.

I sense a split in the movement. Dave seems restless. How long will he allow his world shattering IQ be hidden under the Dr DR?

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:43   

Quote
I don't know why but I assiciate DO'L with dead fish rather than with a cross.
I guess this is the reason why: D'OL and dead fish.
BTW, does one have to capitalize fish in this context?

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,14:43   

Quote (tsig @ Feb. 29 2008,15:39)
I sense a split in the movement. Dave seems restless. How long will he allow his world shattering IQ be hidden under the Dr DR?

Hard to say.  Janie built him his own blog about a year and a half ago and offered to hand him the keys, but he turned it down.

He might enjoy being a "bottom".

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Mister DNA



Posts: 466
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,16:23   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Feb. 29 2008,12:50)
Quote (sparc @ Feb. 29 2008,11:37)
A voice crying in the wilderness.
I think it is legitimate to ask who really is the "Isaac Newton of Information Theory" : DO'L is close to 1000 points at Overwhelmingboredom while the WMAD is still at -15.

Is there a person famous X for link farming?  We could call Denyse the "X of ID theory".

Before my computer died on me, I was writing a post entitled "Denyse O'Leary: The Magenta Thompson of Intelligent Design".

Fans of the old In Living Color series might get the reference, but unfortunately, there's no examples on YouTube.

"Magenta Thompson's Acting School" was run by a never-was actress who berated who students and talked about what a great thespian she was. She would finish her class by showing a clip of her acting skills from a movie in which she had "starred". The scene would turn out to be from a slasher flick, with Magenta Thompson screaming while being chased by some hockey-masked maniac. When the slasher finally caught her, instead of killing her, he'd push her aside and say, "Outta my way, bitch!"

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CBEB's: The Church Burnin' Ebola Blog
Thank you, Dr. Dembski. You are without peer when it comes to The Argument Regarding Design. - vesf

    
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,17:41   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 29 2008,14:43)
 
Quote (tsig @ Feb. 29 2008,15:39)
I sense a split in the movement. Dave seems restless. How long will he allow his world shattering IQ be hidden under the Dr DR?

Hard to say.  Janie built him his own blog about a year and a half ago and offered to hand him the keys, but he turned it down.

He might enjoy being a "bottom".

This is how DaveTard wants others to see him:



He'll be a beta male the rest of his life.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,21:48   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 29 2008,17:41)
This is how DaveTard wants others to see him:


We have already had this discussion, Arden Chucklehead.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,22:14   

Quote (carlsonjok @ Feb. 29 2008,21:48)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Feb. 29 2008,17:41)
This is how DaveTard wants others to see him:


We have already had this discussion, Arden Chucklehead.

(You can remember an ATBC conversation from over a year ago. Therefore you have no life. Even Louis's cross-dressing and goat-bothering is more respectable than that.)

Yeah, but the first time I didn't post a picture of R. Lee Ermey, or use the phrase 'beta male'. This makes my post fresh and new.

"I'll bet you're the kind of guy that would fuck a person in the ass and not even have the goddam common courtesy to give him a reach-around! You're outta here!"

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 29 2008,22:51   

Man it's good to have you back, Arden.

Either that, or it's good to have you from behind.

...either way.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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