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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Uncommonly Dense Thread 2

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Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:32    Quote (dheddle @ July 29 2008,12:26) Actually, if I understand you correctly, you may be surprised that several if not most of the signatories to the Chicago statement would affirm, in the words of one of them (John Gerstner)       Quote The bible is a fallible collection of infallible books. That is, I think, your point. They acknowledge that scripture is inspired, but (and this is what may surprise you) that our collection of what we take to be the canon of scripture is not. Is this another, "Our method allows false negatives, but never a false positive!" type thing? -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

lcd Posts: 137 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:35    Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:39    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,11:35) Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive. Yeah, I think we kinda knew that there are people out there who think that. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:41    Okay, okay, we've heard what everyone else thinks on this subject,   Quote 58 guests, 15 Public Members and 2 Anonymous Members   [ View Complete List ] >Arden Chatfield >Roland Anderson >lcd >Reciprocating Bill >Reluctant Cannibal >Moorit >CheapCheapestViagraC >Tom Ames >Maya >dheddle >Gould >Alan Fox >Shirley Knott >Zachriel >Bob O'H But since he's logged in right now, I personally would like to hear CheapCheapestViagraC's opinion on all this. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:47    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:35) Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive. Lcd: What's your stance on that question? -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:53    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,07:21) Quote (Chayanov @ July 28 2008,23:49) Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 28 2008,23:06)   Quote What is at issue is telling kids, mine especially, tales that are "just so". I've asked many Creationists this, and never gotten a coherent answer: how is saying "the Biblical account of creation is true because the Bible says so" not a 'just-so story'? Because their pastor told them so. Hehe, good one. Actually, I can read.  I read what the Bible says on the subject.  As I trust in God, I trust in His Word.  That is the reason why I believe. I feel sorry for you if you don't or can't understand what a great feeling it is to know that God's love is with you when you follow His Word. Yes, you read, interpret the texts and beleive in thát. I talk to people on a regular basis who don't beleive in what you do.

dnmlthr Posts: 565 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,13:54    Quote (Assassinator @ July 29 2008,19:53) Yes, you read, interpret the texts and beleive in thát. I talk to people on a regular basis who don't beleive in what you do. In fact, some of us are atheists on a daily basis. -------------- Guess what? I don't give a flying f*ck how "science works" - Ftk

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:01    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 29 2008,13:32)       Quote (dheddle @ July 29 2008,12:26) Actually, if I understand you correctly, you may be surprised that several if not most of the signatories to the Chicago statement would affirm, in the words of one of them (John Gerstner)               Quote The bible is a fallible collection of infallible books. That is, I think, your point. They acknowledge that scripture is inspired, but (and this is what may surprise you) that our collection of what we take to be the canon of scripture is not. Is this another, "Our method allows false negatives, but never a false positive!" type thing? Puh-leeze! Gerstner, Sproul, Schaeffer, and Packer (and a few others) are personal heroes of mine. One simply cannot liken their honesty to the Nixplanatory Filter without causing spasms of projectile vomiting. But, in a word, no. I think they would acknowledge both the slim possibility of a false positive (Maybe like, hey, Jude doesn't really belong) and the (probably slimmer but nonzero) possibility of false negative (maybe 1st Clement does---just like Clemente belongs in Cooperstown) Edited to improve fallible word choices. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

lcd Posts: 137 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:08    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ July 29 2008,13:47) Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:35) Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive. Lcd: What's your stance on that question? There are liars everywhere. The worst to me are not the ones like PZ Meyers or Gould.  I think they believed, at least while one lived, what they said.  The ones who I feel show that they are the worst of the worst are those that lie to make money. That can be the stereo-typical TV-evangelist who is actually a self-absorbed showman who rides in limos and takes private jets to the Bahamas with somebody other than their spouse or it can be the college professor who knows that something isn't right but have a vested interest in keeping their mouths shut. For the record I believe you guys, like me, are here to learn and teach.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:11    Quote (dnmlthr @ July 29 2008,13:54) Quote (Assassinator @ July 29 2008,19:53) Yes, you read, interpret the texts and beleive in thát. I talk to people on a regular basis who don't beleive in what you do. In fact, some of us are atheists on a daily basis. Or the tons of other Christian splinter-groups, or the thousands of other religions in the world. Quote For the record I believe you guys, like me, are here to learn and teach. Nope, that's not what this site is about, it's just about mocking tards actually. Although occasionally, something usefull and smart comes through.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:17    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,15:08)     Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ July 29 2008,13:47)     Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:35) Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive. Lcd: What's your stance on that question? There are liars everywhere. The worst to me are not the ones like PZ Meyers or Gould.  I think they believed, at least while one lived, what they said.   Which is to say that you don't believe that Myers is, or Gould was, dishonest or deceptive. So, not only are they not the worst - they aren't exemplars at all.     Quote The ones who I feel show that they are the worst of the worst are those that lie to make money. Can you specify who, operating from within the context of evolutionary biology, meets this description? If so, would you identify assertions they have made that you believe to be dishonest?   Quote ...it can be the college professor who knows that something isn't right but have a vested interest in keeping their mouths shut. Who? -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:51    yeah i wanna know who. hey arden i have never seen lenny since that fiasco, anywhere on the boobz.  what's he up to? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

lcd Posts: 137 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:58    I don't know but I have no doubt they are out there.

lcd Posts: 137 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,14:59    Can I get an edit button?  I promise not to abuse it. By "they" I mean both sides.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:06    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,15:58) I don't know but I have no doubt they are out there. Of course, "there are liars everywhere." But here is a crucial difference: Science is public. Assertions in science stand and fall not on the authority of those making them, but on their public display, replication, and confirmation. Scientists may lie (and at times do), but ultimately the public nature of science results in the frequent detection of dishonest assertions, because the experimental/investigative procedures and the results they yield are are open to inspection and reproduction, and subject to the scrutiny of scientific peers. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Mr_Christopher Posts: 1238 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:08    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,13:30) Those who believe in God's Word have nothing to fear. Then why do you folks act like terrified little children? -------------- Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:15    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 29 2008,12:51) hey arden i have never seen lenny since that fiasco, anywhere on the boobz.  what's he up to? No idea. I haven't seen him in ages. He seems to have quit posting on the internets entirely. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

lcd Posts: 137 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:15    Quote (Mr_Christopher @ July 29 2008,15:08) Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,13:30) Those who believe in God's Word have nothing to fear. Then why do you folks act like terrified little children? You'll have to ask someone else.  I'm not afraid. Before you ask, "Ok Ed, where do you live, what's the wife's name, kids, etc.", I'm not foolish either.

Nerull Posts: 317 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:19    Yes, those horrible college professors, out to make money. That is quite possibly the funniest thing I've ever read. Lcd, take my advice. Go outside. Open your eyes. Look around. Stop forcing yourself to be blind and stupid. Then you won't say things like how college professors are out to make money. You might have some idea of what they actually make. -------------- To rebut creationism you pretty much have to be a biologist, chemist, geologist, philosopher, lawyer and historian all rolled into one. While to advocate creationism, you just have to be an idiot. -- tommorris

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,15:19    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,15:15)  I'm not afraid. If you are not afraid then respond to Bill's point. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

swbarnes2 Posts: 78 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,16:17    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:08) it can be the college professor who knows that something isn't right but have a vested interest in keeping their mouths shut. Okay, so what did you have in mind, exactly? It's really easy.  You just need to: 1) Tell us exactly what claim you think those dishonest, frightened professors are making 2) Show us evidence that they are in fact teaching it.  A quote from a mainstream textbook would do. 3) Explain why the claim is factually wrong 4) Prove that it is wrong with reference to actual scientific facts, preferably ones found in peer-reviewed literature. For instance, you could be thinking that professors are wrongly teaching that Haekel's conclusions are scientifically accurate, and you would be right that they aren't, but you would fail on step 2, because no one teaches that they are. Now certainly, there are a lot of biological facts and concepts that just aren't appropriate for high school science, or even intro undergrad classes.  I'd be flabbergasted if you were to name one such accurate fact that you thought that professors were for whatever reason "keeping their mouth shut" about.

lkeithlu Posts: 321 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,16:25    Quote (swbarnes2 @ July 29 2008,16:17) Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:08) it can be the college professor who knows that something isn't right but have a vested interest in keeping their mouths shut. Okay, so what did you have in mind, exactly? It's really easy.  You just need to: 1) Tell us exactly what claim you think those dishonest, frightened professors are making 2) Show us evidence that they are in fact teaching it.  A quote from a mainstream textbook would do. 3) Explain why the claim is factually wrong 4) Prove that it is wrong with reference to actual scientific facts, preferably ones found in peer-reviewed literature. For instance, you could be thinking that professors are wrongly teaching that Haekel's conclusions are scientifically accurate, and you would be right that they aren't, but you would fail on step 2, because no one teaches that they are. Now certainly, there are a lot of biological facts and concepts that just aren't appropriate for high school science, or even intro undergrad classes.  I'd be flabbergasted if you were to name one such accurate fact that you thought that professors were for whatever reason "keeping their mouth shut" about. My spouse is a college professor who teaches animal behavior from an evolutionary perspective. I've never known him to keep his mouth shut out of fear. Oh, and yeah, we are raking in the dough...can't spend it fast enough.

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,16:29    I'm a college professor and I never talk about Bill Buckner. Nobody on campus ever talks about Bill Buckner. It's a dirty little secret, but there you have it. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Chayanov Posts: 289 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,16:39    Quote ... it can be the college professor who knows that something isn't right but have a vested interest in keeping their mouths shut. That's flimsy even by strawman standards. You won't support this assertion, of course, because you can't. You're just firing random shots and hoping to see what sticks. I wish you and ftk could sit in on my Human Origins class. I think you would be very surprised at how I teach evolution. One common complaint the students make is how many times qualifiers get used ("The evidence suggests..." for example). They want me to say, "This is how it is," and I have to remind them that science doesn't work that way. I point out where the gaps are in our knowledge of the past, and I explain some of the reasons for those gaps (the difficult process of fossilization being one of those). I list the pros and cons of various hypotheses, for example why hominins became bipedal. I developed the curriculum for this class, I selected the textbook, I assign the topics. Nobody is standing behind me telling me what I should teach or how I should present it. My only vested interest is in teaching students how to learn, how to approach a topic critically, and to undo the damage caused by people like you who got at them when they were younger. Keep your beliefs at the door. In class, we're all about the evidence. -------------- Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

dvunkannon Posts: 1377 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,17:00    Quote (dheddle @ July 29 2008,17:29) I'm a college professor and I never talk about Bill Buckner. Nobody on campus ever talks about Bill Buckner. It's a dirty little secret, but there you have it. Why conceal evidence that miracles DO occur? -------------- I’m referring to evolution, not changes in allele frequencies. - Cornelius Hunter I’m not an evolutionist, I’m a change in allele frequentist! - Nakashima

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,17:27    I was a college professor, and I might be one again someday. If I could show even a medium scale miracle, say water into grapejuice, I would never need to work again. If I could show that evolution was bunkum, or that the earth was merely 6,000 years old- I would never need to work again. This "cover-up" tale is such bullshit that it is hard to imagine people actually using it. But that is what the creationists do everyday. -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,17:44    Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 29 2008,15:15) Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,July 29 2008,12:51) hey arden i have never seen lenny since that fiasco, anywhere on the boobz.  what's he up to? No idea. I haven't seen him in ages. He seems to have quit posting on the internets entirely. He was posting to talk.origins as recently as last week (July 25th). The newsgroup had an outage, so he may simply not have noticed it is back up yet. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

JonF Posts: 634 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,17:59    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,08:21) Actually, I can read.  I read what the Bible says on the subject.  As I trust in God, I trust in His Word.  That is the reason why I believe. God wrote the rocks. Man wrote the Bible. Where they conflict I go with what God wrote. Quote I feel sorry for you if you don't or can't understand what a great feeling it is to know that God's love is with you when you follow His Word. Why do you assume that the people who post here do not know that feeling? Awfully arrogant of you.

Chayanov Posts: 289 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,18:15    Quote I feel sorry for you if you don't or can't understand what a great feeling it is to know that God's love is with you when you follow His Word. Thanks but I already know the love of real people. I don't have to make up imaginary friends to love me. As for the bolded part, I already got out of one abusive relationship. I don't need another one. -------------- Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: July 29 2008,19:16    Quote (lcd @ July 29 2008,14:35) Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that Evolutionists are dishonest and deceptive. Ummm, Many people I know who feel Evolution is evil incarnate and deceptive believe that it is only the Evolutionist's side that is dishonest and deceptive. I was interested in this as well, Lcd: What is your stance on the notion that "evolution is evil incarnate?" And what does that even mean? -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

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