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  Topic: From "LUCA" thread, Paley's Ghost can back up his assertions< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 26 2006,16:04   

You can do it, Paley.  I'm rooting for ya.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,08:54   

Quote
Sure, as the star traveled in one direction, there would be our normal doppler red shift.  But, as the star traveled back (to complete the wobble) it would have a blue-shift.  But, the stars never change their red/blue-shift (except binary stars in small amounts), only an extremely tiny handful of stars are coming towards us, and they are in our galaxy.  So, it's almost as if the stars are all moving away from us, constantly, and never wobbling back.


You have forgotten to consider the vibrational frequency of the quintessence sphere.  This frequency is approximately 2 Pi/24000 years, and hence makes the period about four times the true age of the universe. At the moment of creation the intelligent designer compressed it, and then let it go. Hence, at this time in history the sphere is experiencing its maximum acceleration. One big hole in the big clang theory that even members of the cult of evolutionism have noticed is that the stars seem to be receding from us at an accelerated rate.  This requires a continuous force acting upon them the big clang does not provide. However, the quintessence sphere models this acceleration perfectly. The mathematics behind this is probably simple enough that it could even be taught to

some members of the ACLU! I have now conclusively proved my model and discredited the evolutionistic alternative.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,09:02   

Quote
Charge used as an infinite energy supplyl?!?!  Paley, you just may have solved all or our energy problems with a few strokes of your keyboard!!  Quick, tell us, how do we get energy out of electrons?!?!


Cogzie, check out this website for a good introduction on how this can work.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,09:46   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 27 2006,14:54)

You have forgotten to consider the vibrational frequency of the quintessence sphere.  This frequency is approximately 2 Pi/24000 years, and hence makes the period about four times the true age of the universe. At the moment of creation the intelligent designer compressed it, and then let it go. Hence, at this time in history the sphere is experiencing its maximum acceleration. One big hole in the big clang theory that even members of the cult of evolutionism have noticed is that the stars seem to be receding from us at an accelerated rate.  This requires a continuous force acting upon them the big clang does not provide. However, the quintessence sphere models this acceleration perfectly. The mathematics behind this is probably simple enough that it could even be taught to

some members of the ACLU! I have now conclusively proved my model and discredited the evolutionistic alternative.

Wait a minute. I know I'm not a mathematician, but what does a frequency of 2 Pi/24,000 years mean? That sounds more like a period to me. A frequency should be expressed in Hz, or cycles per minute/hour/year/century or whatever unit you want to deal with. What's the frequency or period in units we can use? A perriod of 2 PI/24,000 years is a lot less than a year; it's on the order of two hours.

And furthermore, where do you derive this frequency from in the first place? Where do you see observational evidence that the universe is in fact vibrating? If the period is, as you claim, greater than the age of the universe, then how do you know that there's even a period at all? What if current trends continue without ever reversing?

And how does this model explain differing recession rates? If everything is the same distance from the earth, shouldn't the recession frequencies be the same, and more to the point, all in the same direction? Why do we see some blueshifts?

Also, your claim that the observation that the universe seems to be expanding at an increasing rate is hardly a "big hole" in the inflationary big bang theory. Granted, it's not clear exactly what is driving the expansion, but it's not like the theory is in danger of being scrapped. For one thing, strong evidence in favor of increasing expansion is only 8 years old. But already several hypotheses are on the table accounting for observation, and none of them involve positing a crystalline sphere 4.5 ly in diamter comprising the entire universe.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Ved



Posts: 398
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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,10:05   

Quote
I have now conclusively proved my model and discredited the evolutionistic alternative.

Well I'm convinced (not), but WTF does it have to do with evolution?
Quote
The mathematics behind this...

What math? Where?
Quote
ACLU

F U

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,10:22   

Quote
I have now conclusively proved my model and discredited the evolutionistic alternative.
You haven't proved a single thing yet, Paley.  Where did this 2pi/24,000 year frequency come from?  Was there a measurement made to support this number?

Quote
One big hole in the big clang theory that even members of the cult of evolutionism have noticed is that the stars seem to be receding from us at an accelerated rate.  This requires a continuous force acting upon them the big clang does not provide.
Actually, Paley, the "big clang theory" allows for a cosmological constant, which takes the shape of Dark Energy.  This Dark Energy is sometimes called Quintessence.  So, you have the nerve to steal a concept from another theory, then claim that that theory doesn't contain your concept.  How could a strong Christian such as yourself be so dishonest?  You can take your bald faced lies and misrepresentations to more receptive sites.

Quote
The mathematics behind this is probably simple enough that it could even be taught to some members of the ACLU!
Well, I'm not a member of the ACLU, so you can give me a shot.  Where are these mathematics that you speak of?

Quote
Cogzie, check out this website for a good introduction on how this can work.
I don't understand crank-speak very well.  Can you translate?  I skimmed the site and couldn't find anything about electrons being an infinite source of energy.  Perhaps you can fill in the relevant details or highlight the parts of the theory that are relevant.

There are plenty of questions you haven't addressed in pages 40-41.

I must say, I'm perplexed at why it takes you so long to produce the maths that support your theories.  You've already reached your conclusions, you consider your theory proved, yet you can't produce the math to justify any of your claims?  Simply amazing.

-Dan

  
ericmurphy



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,11:42   

Bill, I was wondering if I could possibly, respectfully make some suggestions for your model. Generally, astronomy and cosmology are observational sciences. In other words, for the most part, astronomical and cosmological models are constrained by observation.

But so far, it doesn't seem that your model takes observation into account at all. I understand that you're trying to achieve mathematical consistency in your model, but the history of astronomy is littered with internally consistent models which fail to comport with observation.

It might be a good idea to leave off the math and physics sites for a while, and spend some time perusing the astronomical sites. Your latest post claims to have "conclusively proven" your model, and yet you have not yet accounted for a simple fact of observational life: many astronomical objects out there demonstrate blueshift. So far your model seems to have ignored this stumbling block. I don't think your model can progress (let alone be said to be "proven") until it overcomes this relatively glaring shortcoming.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,11:54   

The talkorigins site just added an article about the the Big Bang to its FAQ list.

Henry

  
Dean Morrison



Posts: 216
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,12:27   

Warning- practically content free post follows-

nice to see youve got yourself an Avatar sorted out Gop old boy - glad to see I've been an inspiration to you. Nice try at the 'Socratic Irony' but never mind; the Panda is cute anyway - and a picture of a bloke covered in a sheet could be open to misinterpretation I suppose.


Now tell me - do you think this stuff up when you're on: or off: the medication?

Quote
You have forgotten to consider the vibrational frequency of the quintessence sphere.


Perhaps these guys had 'forgotten to consider' this because they didn't know you were going to make it up at the time.?

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,13:58   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 27 2006,14:54)
One big hole in the big clang theory that even members of the cult of evolutionism have noticed is that the stars seem to be receding from us at an accelerated rate.  This requires a continuous force acting upon them the big clang does not provide.

I followed the link Henry provided, and came across the following:

Quote
Taking this as an indicator that this sort of energy exists, we can explore what effect this might have from a cosmological standpoint. Regardless of the expansion of the universe, the zero-point energy density remains constant and positive. This leads to the rather curious (and non-intuitive) conclusion that the pressure associated with dark energy is negative. If one plugs a component like this into the standard BBT equations, the effect of the negative pressure is larger than that of the positive energy density. As a result, in a universe driven by dark energy, the effect of its gravity is to accelerate the expansion of the universe, instead of slowing it down (as one would expect for a universe with just matter in it).


Seems the "evolutionists" have anticipated your problem with their theory, Bill.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 27 2006,18:53   

For those keeping track at home:

The good reverend's last substantive post before today's was on January 19th, eight days ago. The last substantive post before that was on January 9th, eighteen days ago. Given that so far we haven't been blessed with a coherent accounting for doppler blueshift, let alone cosmological redshift, it's going to be a long, long time before we get an actual coherent, well-integrated cosmological model.

I know it sounds like I'm harping, but I've never really believed the Rev. would be able to overturn 500 years of well-settled, thoroughly confirmed astrophysics and cosmology (to put it mildly). Nevetheless I'm dying to see what he comes up with. My guess is that I'll be able to throw up objections to his theory for basically the next 200 hundred years, if I live that long.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,10:19   

Cogzie wrote:
Quote
Actually, Paley, the "big clang theory" allows for a cosmological constant, which takes the shape of Dark Energy.  This Dark Energy is sometimes called Quintessence.  So, you have the nerve to steal a concept from another theory, then claim that that theory doesn't contain your concept.  How could a strong Christian such as yourself be so dishonest?  You can take your bald faced lies and misrepresentations to more receptive sites.

No dishonesty - just a lack of respect for the evidence supporting Dark Energy. After further review of the SDSS data confirming the integrated Sachs-Wolfe effect, I concede that researchers have found positive evidence for Dark Energy at last. I shouldn't have ignored this part of the Big Clang model and I apologise for my carelessness. However, my model will explain the source of Dark energy.

ericmurphy wrote:
Quote
Wait a minute. I know I'm not a mathematician, but what does a frequency of 2 Pi/24,000 years mean? That sounds more like a period to me. A frequency should be expressed in Hz, or cycles per minute/hour/year/century or whatever unit you want to deal with. What's the frequency or period in units we can use? A perriod of 2 PI/24,000 years is a lot less than a year; it's on the order of two hours.

The number should read: (2Pi)/(24,000 years). Sorry for not making this clear before. And yes, I will include the derivation of this figure in a future post. The equation is a simple ODE. I suspect you'll be disappointed Cogzie.

More later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Alan Fox



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,10:26   

Mr The Ghost of Paley wrote:

Quote
More later.


Would "more" involve guts and gametes, and would "later" suggest within my lifetime? :D

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,11:16   

Quote
Would "more" involve guts and gametes, and would "later" suggest within my lifetime?

But aren't you enjoying my debate with Mr. Brazeau? And I am contributing (albeit slowly) to my geocentric model. Actually, I'm happy about being wrong about the level of evidence for Dark Energy. Along with the Redshift, this is the first observation that my model will explain.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Alan Fox



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,11:23   

Too technical for me. And I am deaf to the music of the spheres. Biochemistry was my field, so I hope to be able to follow your argument better with HGT.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,12:32   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 28 2006,16:19)

The number should read: (2Pi)/(24,000 years). Sorry for not making this clear before. And yes, I will include the derivation of this figure in a future post. The equation is a simple ODE. I suspect you'll be disappointed Cogzie.

More later.

Yes. 2 Pi/24,000 years means to me the same thing as (2Pi)/(24,000 years). Which works out to approximately 2.29 hours. Unless it's supposed to be a frequency (which is what you implied in your original post), but a frequency is customarily expressed as so many oscillations per unit of time, e.g., 10.48 oscillations per day (which appears to be what (2Pi)/(24,000 years) is equal to).

In any event, period and frequency are essentially the same thing presented in different units. I can't think of how I would interpret (2Pi)/(24,000 years) as being anything other than a period of a bit less than two and a half hours, which I think we can all agree is quite a bit less than the true age of the universe, and not four times the age of the universe, which is what the Rev. stated in his earlier post.

That being the case, we wouldn't expect to see stars oscillating between redshift and blueshift every 24 hours; we'd expect to see it every couple of hours. Since this doesn't happen, I think we can essentially rule out Bill's model as contradicted by observation. Unless I'm completely misinterpreting Bill's language, but regardless of where he derives (2Pi)/(24,000 years), it doesn't appear he's any closer to accounting for doppler shift, or cosmological redshift, than he was back two and a half weeks ago.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,15:39   

Quote
2 Pi/24,000 years means to me the same thing as (2Pi)/(24,000 years). Which works out to approximately 2.29 hours.
Eric, you are quite wrong here.  1/time has the same meaning as a frequency.  You're getting confused because you're not realizing that the unit "years" is in the parentheses.  He left it in this form so it would be easy to see the period, which is, indeed, 24,000 years.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 28 2006,18:26   

Quote (cogzoid @ Jan. 28 2006,21:39)
Eric, you are quite wrong here.  1/time has the same meaning as a frequency.  You're getting confused because you're not realizing that the unit "years" is in the parentheses.  He left it in this form so it would be easy to see the period, which is, indeed, 24,000 years.

Okay, I guess I am confused. So is he saying that the unit is whatever one wants to call a slice of time of 24,000 years' duration? It's been a long time since pre-calculus, and longer since trig, but doesn't 2Pi basically mean one cycle? In which case he's saying one cycle per 24,000 years? I guess I still don't see how the period of oscillation is four times the true age of the universe, unless the good reverend thinks the universe is only 6,000 years old.

In any event, I'll leave the hard math questions to you, Dan, and I'll ask the easy non-math ones, like how does Bill believe astronomers are right about dark energy, but wrong about comparatively simple things like stars with a parallax of more than a parsec and a half or so, and where does parallax come from in the first place?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2006,09:31   

Quote
In any event, I'll leave the hard math questions to you, Dan, and I'll ask the easy non-math ones, like how does Bill believe astronomers are right about dark energy, but wrong about comparatively simple things like stars with a parallax of more than a parsec and a half or so, and where does parallax come from in the first place?
You're asking great questions, keep it up.  I just wanted to keep you from wrongly hammering on a point for too long.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2006,11:08   

In the future I'll rely more on standard units and less on dimensional analysis.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 29 2006,14:45   

Quote (cogzoid @ Jan. 29 2006,15:31)
You're asking great questions, keep it up.  I just wanted to keep you from wrongly hammering on a point for too long.

I appreciate the correction, Dan. But the funny thing is, despite being off by a factor of either ~16 orders of magnitude (for the real age of the universe) or ~8 orders of magnitude or so (for Bill's age of the universe), all my other objections stand.

So, Bill, where does the blueshift come from?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,05:19   

Re "where does the blueshift come from?"

Maybe it got washed with the jeans in hot water?

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,09:50   

Quote
What math? Where?
Quote  
ACLU

F U


My dear Ved,

Is the phrase "F U" part of the liturgy of the mother church of evolutionism referred to in my post? It wouldn't surprise me, for the linguistic performance of members of that group tends to be stunted at that vocabulary level.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,10:05   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 30 2006,15:50)
Quote
What math? Where?
Quote  
ACLU

F U


My dear Ved,

Is the phrase "F U" part of the liturgy of the mother church of evolutionism referred to in my post? It wouldn't surprise me, for the linguistic performance of members of that group tends to be stunted at that vocabulary level.

Bill, I'd be careful about slinging arrows at the scientific community, when doing so will provoke easy comparison to the linguistic performance of members of the various fundamentalist churches, especially those in the American "Bible Belt" (and I'm talking about English and other natural languages, not glossolalia).

Now, about them blueshifts...

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Ved



Posts: 398
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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,10:39   

Nah, me know other words.

Me just didn't feel the need to use any others. It seemed appropriate at the time (sorry mods) to counter yet another of your cheap shots. What more is there to say about it? You don't admire the elegant simplicity of my intelligently designed reply?

I'm starting to think that all of your so-called theories are nothing more than a springboard from which you can rail against all your percieved enemies. What kind of scientist mentions, in the middle of his discourse, that people in the ACLU are stupid? What on earth does the ACLU have to do with your quintessence sphere?

I'm not a scientist. I don't even pretend to be one. ;) But you don't find me on this board saying that cranks or conservatives or theists are stupid. Heck, I even like some of your prose, your way with words sometimes gives me a chuckle. Granted, it's usually because you're weaving insults into your theories... though the comment I was responding to was just dumb. Not your best work.

  
MDPotter



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,10:39   

GoP babbled:
Quote
In the future I'll rely more on standard units and less on delusional analysis.


Fixed that for ya.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,11:35   

Quote
Now, about them blueshifts...






Now, this equation governs the angle-independent motion of quintessence and explains the redshift. However, there are blueshift anomalies that need to be explained. They are explained by the fact that r(0) and r'(0) are functions of the polar and azimuthal angles of the sphere of the fixed stars. Hence, the entire sphere is not all vibrating simultaneously. Therefore, there are some stars that have blueshifts.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,12:25   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Jan. 30 2006,17:35)
Quote
Now, about them blueshifts...


Now, this equation governs the angle-independent motion of quintessence and explains the redshift. However, there are blueshift anomalies that need to be explained. They are explained by the fact that r(0) and r'(0) are functions of the polar and azimuthal angles of the sphere of the fixed stars. Hence, the entire sphere is not all vibrating simultaneously. Therefore, there are some stars that have blueshifts.

Okay, how does it explain differing redshifts, which range from z=~0 to z > 3? And how does it explain the fact that different ranges of redshifts also correspond to different categories of astronomical and cosmological objects? I.e., redshifts > 0.1 are rare for intragalactic objects, redshifts > 1 are rare for anything other than extremely energetic galaxies and quasars, and redshifts > 3 are almost unheard of for anything other than quasars.

And as for blueshifts, there is no obvious correspondence between azimuth/right ascension and approach/recession velocity. If the sphere is vibrating with harmonics (I'm assuming that's what you mean when you say it's not vibrating simultaneously), there should be some fairly straighforward pattern of red- and blueshifts.

The patterns of red- and blueshift, are well-accounted for, however, by reference to the dynamics of stellar orbits around the galaxy's center of mass and to the large-scale structure of the galaxy.

Further, extremely high blueshifts are extremely rare, but extremely high redshifts are extremely common. What up with that?

Also, your implied age of the cosmos (~6,000 years) is plainly wrong. The evidence that the earth is ~4.5 E 9 years old and that the universe is 1.37 E 10 years old is essentially unassailable. In other words, for you to be right about the age of the earth, we'd have to jettison virtually everything we know about astronomy, geology, chemistry, paleontology, biology, cosmology, relativity, and quantum physics. In other words, we'd have to jettison virtually all of science.

I think there's the same problem here there was with your misunderstandings of phylogentic relationships among taxa, Bill. You seem to have a blind spot when it comes to how evidence from very different and independent lines of reasoning can all converge on the same answers. You spent a lot of time arguing about discordant results obtained from gene and protein analysis, while completely disregarding an immense body of evidence derived from totally separate lines of inquiry, like morphological comparisons, the fossil record, plate tectonics, and cladistics.

I was recently reading this article on TalkOrigins about various YEC claims. One thing that jumped out at me was that the various methods the YECs used to estimate the age of the earth varied over an enormous range of dates, from ~100 years to about 260 million years. Didn't that give the YEC guys pause as to the validity of their methods? All the various methods--stratigraphy, paleontology, plate tectonics, radiometric dating, paleomagnetics, theories about planetary formation--converge on one value: ~4.5E9 years. The YECs' methods generated estimates all over the map. The only thing they had in common was that they were all at least an order of magnitude lower than the accepted value.

That should have set off some warning bells, I would have thought...

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,12:28   

Mr. Potty wrote:

Quote
GoP babbled:
Quote  
In the future I'll rely more on standard units and less on delusional analysis.


Fixed that for ya.


Mr. Potty appears highly skilled at the art of character interchange via keyboard. Perhaps we need to recruit him in a "man-vs.-machine" showdown against Dawkins' weasel program on who can write the works of Shakespeare the fastest. However, this might be too much trouble on a first try. Instead, he could compete with his perceived ancestors in a race for the holy grail of literary greatness via keyboard plonking.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Zardoz



Posts: 20
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 30 2006,13:08   

Quote



Also, your implied age of the cosmos (~6,000 years) is plainly wrong. The evidence that the earth is ~4.5 E 9 years old and that the universe is 1.37 E 10 years old is essentially unassailable.

http://www.cosmologystatement.org/
http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00subjectx.htm#Redshift
http://tinyurl.com/bo7a7

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When you die, if you get a choice between going to regular heaven or pie heaven, choose pie heaven. It might be a trick, but if it's not, mmmmmmm, boy. Once my friend told me that he had found Jesus. I thought to myself, "WooHoo, we're rich!" It turns out he meant something different. -Jack Handey

   
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