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  Topic: From "LUCA" thread, Paley's Ghost can back up his assertions< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2005,11:10   

I just realized that I made a mistake.  I was talking about dark energy when I said "Why do you jump to the conclusion that your quintessence balls are described by Bose-Einstien statistics instead of Fermi-Dirac statistics, or an entirely different set of statistics all together?"  But, when Paley said: "Be careful about dichotomizing the universe into Apollonian baryons and Dionysian dark matter." I should've pointed out his error, instead of saying this "I didn't dichotomize between the two.  I asked whether your dark matter is made of baryons or fermions or something new."

Now, let me describe the error.  Dark Matter is most definitely NOT Dark Energy.  They are completely different beasts with completely different effects on our universe.  Despite the fact that E=mc^2, even.  Dark Matter is a kludge to properly accomodate for the dispersion of rotational velocities of galaxies.  The stars on the fringe of the galaxy are moving way too fast, if the visible matter is all there is.  Of course, there was a recent paper about this problem being solved by a complete usage of GR in the calculation.  The basic idea is that the Newtonian approximations weren't good enough, afterall.  I'm not sure of how this paper has been accepted yet.  Dark Energy, on the other hand, is another kludge, but on a universal scale.  Dark Energy is used to explain why the universe seems to still be accelerating in it's expansion rate.  Until recent data showed otherwise, we assumed we were in a universe that was slowing down it's expansion, as gravitational forces took their toll.  Now it seems that not only is our universe not slowing down, but it's speeding up.  This surely won't help our future star travel prospects.  Paley, confused Dark Energy and Dark Matter.  I did too.  I hope this fixes any confusion.

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A wavefunction describing superfluidity in a perfect crystal.   Zhai/Wu, 2005. Journal of Statistical Mechanics.

   This should also give the Cogzser something to chew over. More later.
This paper, once again, has nothing to do with quintessence.  It describes more about our friend, super-fluid Helium.

I think you are under the impression that because you use the same words as they do that they are supporting your argument.  But, you made an assumption: that there is a sphere of supersolid, crystalline quintessence.  These people are writing papers about supersolid, superfluid Helium.  Now you have to connect the two, before you claim any evidence for your theory.  Surely, you can claim that your theory relies on these supersolid theories.  But until you demonstrate some evidence of the nature of your quintessence, these Helium experiments and theories don't support your theory at all.  As an example, you can make a theory that requires the earth to be hollow.  But until you demonstrate that it is, theories about how basketballs are hollow do not support your theory.  I'm not sure what logical fallacy this is, but it's a big one, and I hope you stop using it, now that I've pointed it out to you.

Cheers,
Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2005,11:31   

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Don't hide behind obfuscating language, Paley.  What does "baryonic in structure" mean?  Either the balls display Bose-Einstein statistics, or they don't.

 I was just mimicking the loose language used on this board. Are you trying to ask, "Is the condensate composed of fermions, bosons, or fermions mediated by bosons?" Or are you asking me to which type of fermion the condensate belongs? I realise that the condensate cannot obey the Pauli exclusion principle, so scientists would normally classify it as boson-like. But as recent research reveals, neither God nor Nature obey man's dictates.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2005,12:09   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 06 2005,13:38)
My condensate aether, while baryonic in structure, possesses many properties that founder Darwin. For example, my condensate can slow light, fiddle with refractive indices, and thwart friction: these properties prevent your feeble attempts at pigeonholing.

I don't know, Bill. How are these properties different from any superfluid? Any crystal (e.g., table salt) can "slow light, fiddle with refractive indices..." And any superfluid (e.g., helium II) flows without friction.

Doesn't sound all that impressive to me...

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 06 2005,14:22   

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I was just mimicking the loose language used on this board.
You really should hold yourself to higher standards.

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Are you trying to ask, "Is the condensate composed of fermions, bosons, or fermions mediated by bosons?" Or are you asking me to which type of fermion the condensate belongs?
I'm asking you to concisely describe your crystalline quintessence.  You lead, I'll follow.

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I realise that the condensate cannot obey the Pauli exclusion principle, so scientists would normally classify it as boson-like. But as recent research reveals, neither God nor Nature obey man's dictates.
Sigh.  I guess I'll never get a straight answer out of you.  I'm not asking you to divulge info about someone else's thoery.  I'm asking you about your own, Paley.  Are you afraid of somehow being wrong?

So, I'll help you out.  Let me know what part of this I have wrong, if any.  Then you can correct that part.

Ether is made up of a crystal of quintessence particles.  Each little particle is differential in size and behaves like a boson.  Together they form a super-solid crystal that can flow without friction, much like the recently discovered Bose-Einstein Condensates and the recent work on Solid He4.

Now, you still have plenty more questions to answer.

Can I hold a solid piece of ether in my hand?
What forces does quintessence interact with?  Gravity, Strong, Electro-Magnetic, Weak?
If the ether interacts with different forces, how do we know that the 1976 paper applies to it?  
If it is made of baryonic material, then can we make some in our particle accelerators?  
What is the characteristic length scale of this crystal? (differential is the size of the "atoms" but how far away are they from each other?)
Wouldn't the axes of this crystal change as we pan our telescopes across the sky?
How do the stars get trapped in it?
Are the stars even made out of baryonic matter?  
Are there any independant tests we can make to see or demonstrate this ether?

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,08:41   

I'll try to fill in the details later tonight, but here are a few answers to Cogzoid's questions:
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Can I hold a solid piece of ether in my hand?

 Certainly not, it doesn't have the requisite quark structure.
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What forces does quintessence interact with?  Gravity, Strong, Electro-Magnetic, Weak?

 The quintessence interacts with the strong force, but not like a typical fermion. The strong force and gravity combine to align the quarks in a single direction (more on this later). Since the quintessence conducts electricity, it also interacts with the electroweak force (of course of course)  ;)
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If the ether interacts with different forces, how do we know that the 1976 paper applies to it?

 Since you haven't seen the model yet, we don't know how it all fits together. But later we will.
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If it is made of baryonic material, then can we make some in our particle accelerators?

 See above. The quark structure is different, so no, not at present. Don't worry, I'll propose some tests along with the model.
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What is the characteristic length scale of this crystal? (differential is the size of the "atoms" but how far away are they from each other?)
Wouldn't the axes of this crystal change as we pan our telescopes across the sky?

 "Infinitesimal" and "no", respectively. Remember, bosonic materials don't obey Pauli. And the quark alignment (along with the unique optical properties present in most condensates) would be impossible to detect with a telescope. Once again, I'll propose some tests later.

 Eric - don't worry, I'll give your questions due consideration tonight (hopefully). I just think it's important to answer the primary structure questions before hitting the secondary and tertiary structure of my model.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,08:47   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 07 2005,14:41)
Eric - don't worry, I'll give your questions due consideration tonight (hopefully). I just think it's important to answer the primary structure questions before hitting the secondary and tertiary structure of my model.

Seems like a lotta work just to show that the sun goes around the earth. :-)

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,10:52   

As I thought, already way over your head, Paley.

Can you hold it in your hand?
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Certainly not, it doesn't have the requisite quark structure.

What forces does quintessence interact with?
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Since the quintessence conducts electricity, it also interacts with the electroweak force (of course of course)


Apparently, you don't understand what allows us to hold things in our hand.  The atoms that make up your skin push on each other.  It is not the nucleus that does this pushing, but the spinning electron clouds that are interacting.  The electro-weak force is the force that keeps the ground below our feet "solid".  Quarks have nothing to do with it.  In one sentence you say I can't touch it.  Then you say that it reacts to the electro-weak forces.  Which is it?  I hope you can see how you making such a simple and basic mistake undermines your future endeavors in my mind.  Already your understanding is inconsistent with small things.  How can you be trusted to come up with a consistent grand unified theory?

-Dan

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,11:28   

Quote (cogzoid @ Dec. 07 2005,16:52)
Already your understanding is inconsistent with small things.  How can you be trusted to come up with a consistent grand unified theory?

-Dan

And I can't wait to see the answers to my questions. :-)

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,12:14   

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As I thought, already way over your head, Paley.

 Now, now, your mamma taught you better than that, Cogzie. Besides, there was a gentleman here who once warned me of the dangers of self-aggrandizement, so be careful lest he admonish you as well. :p
Quote
Apparently, you don't understand what allows us to hold things in our hand.  The atoms that make up your skin push on each other.  It is not the nucleus that does this pushing, but the spinning electron clouds that are interacting.

  Wow, Cogzie, you're such a good tutor that I find myself understanding your points before you even make them. Now if only my skills would let me return the favor, or at least allow you to understand me in the present. Instead, I must repeat myself:
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The quintessence interacts with the strong force, but not like a typical fermion. The strong force and gravity combine to align the quarks in a single direction (more on this later). Since the quintessence conducts electricity, it also interacts with the electroweak force (of course of course)

 Like, perhaps, a photon.

How are photons classified, Cogzie?

  More later.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,13:22   

One more thing: I didn't mean to imply that photons carry both the weak and electromagnetic forces. It takes leptons or heavier particles to do that, of course. This also explains this comment:
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The quintessence interacts with the strong force, but not like a typical fermion. The strong force and gravity combine to align the quarks in a single direction (more on this later).

 Hadrons are not the building blocks of quintessence, so something else must explain its interaction with the strong force.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Ved



Posts: 398
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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,14:11   

Sounds like this stuff can do it all, a kind of goo of the gaps.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,14:41   

Paley, you almost make a good point.  Photons react with the electro-weak force.  But we can't hold photons!  What gives?!

Photons, however, still react with our atoms.  Put your hand between the screen and your eyes to demonstrate.  One can't "hold" the photons for a number of reasons.  Firstly, they get absorbed by the atoms.  Secondly, they go the speed of light, so they would need to be trapped some how.  A trap, maybe like the lattice of some magic crystal, would suffice.

You still failed to understand that there is no "requisite quark structure" to hold something in your hand.  It's all electric.

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Now, now, your mamma taught you better than that, Cogzie. Besides, there was a gentleman here who once warned me of the dangers of self-aggrandizement, so be careful lest he admonish you as well.
Maybe you should look up self-aggrandizing.  Saying that you are over your head when you demonstrate lack of understanding of fundamental physics while attempting to formulate a GUT doesn't seem like a ridiculous comment to me.

Quote
Wow, Cogzie, you're such a good tutor that I find myself understanding your points before you even make them. Now if only my skills would let me return the favor, or at least allow you to understand me in the present.
I'm also teaching the non-physicists that are reading this thread, Paley.  Your sarcasm is unwarranted.

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It takes leptons or heavier particles to do that, of course.
Particle physics not a strong point, eh Paley.  Looking at your website it's apparent that leptons DO NOT carry the electro-weak force.  Photons and W and Z Bosons do that.  First paragraph, too.  I'm dissappointed, Paley.

But, please, don't let these details slow you down.  I'm still waiting for the next installment with bated breath.

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,15:56   

Quote
Particle physics not a strong point, eh Paley.  Looking at your website it's apparent that leptons DO NOT carry the electro-weak force.  Photons and W and Z Bosons do that.  First paragraph, too.  I'm dissappointed, Paley.

Sloppy wording on my part, yes. W and Z bosons mediate the weak force, but they can only act on leptons or heavier particles (for the most part, at least. Neutrinos are an exception). By the way, are you implying that photons carry the weak force? Or is it just the massive gauge bosons?
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You still failed to understand that there is no "requisite quark structure" to hold something in your hand.  It's all electric.

Gee, I've really been misinformed:
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Hadrons are defined as strongly interacting composite particles. Hadrons are either bosons (named: mesons), or fermions (named: baryons)
Ordinary baryons contain three valence quarks or three valence antiquarks each.
Nucleons are the proton and the neutron, the fermionic constituents of normal atomic nuclei.
Hyperons such as the Ä, Ë, Î and Ù particles are generally short-lived and heavier than nucleons. They do not normally appear in atomic nuclei.
Ordinary mesons contain a valence quark and a valence antiquark, and include the pions, the kaons and many other types of mesons. In quantum hadrodynamic models the strong force between nucleons is mediated by mesons.
Exotic baryons have been discovered only recently.
Pentaquarks consist of four valence quarks and one valence antiquark.
Exotic mesons are predicted by new theories.
Tetraquarks consist of two valence quarks and two valence antiquarks.
Glueballs are bound states of two or more real gluons.
Hybrid s consist of one or more valence quark-antiquark pairs and one or more real gluons.

Yep, those quarks sure are unrelated to a particle's structure.....

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 07 2005,18:31   

Quote
Sloppy wording on my part, yes.
It's not just sloppy wording.  It's incorrect language.  And it speaks volumes.

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Gee, I've really been misinformed:
Nope, you just are unable to read.  I didn't say that quarks are unrelated to a particle's structure (a completely different point).  I said that there is no "requisite quark structure" for one to be able to "hold" something (apparently you disagree).  Unfortunately, your source says nothing about this, but offers great definitions for your future discourse.  And you demonstrate that you still fail to understand the (important!) subtleties.  And do you still have to rely on tired sarcasm?  *sigh*

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leptons or heavier particles (for the most part, at least. Neutrinos are an exception)
And just so no one reading this gets confused: Neutrinos ARE leptons.  I don't know why Paley seems to imply otherwise (more sloppiness?).

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



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Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,09:44   

Cogzoid, you are priceless; you're not just a peach, you're an Evopeach! With your permission, I'd like to dub thee "Roshi" - you've certainly earned the title. But I digress.

   Let's back up and take stock of the situation. Apparently, Roshi-san finds me a rather dull student who needs polishing before being permitted to share knowledge with the other daiya no genseki. Clothed with this conviction, Roshi-san's yuurei journeys to a shadow world in which he sees ignorance in a bad choice of words, fear in a mote of expression. Since I am not blessed with Roshi-san's insight, I will use the humble methods available to gaijin.

 1) Did Paley confuse dark matter with dark energy?
 Not really. Paley was just following the train of Cogzoid's thought. Since we were discussing matter at the time, Paley correctly divined Cogzoid's real meaning. Since Cogzoid owned up to this gaffe, the discussion wasn't harmed.

2) Was Paley wrong when he used the phrase, "requisite quark structure"?
 As Cogzoid so elegantly explained, electrostatic forces govern intermolecular attraction. These range from weak London forces to stronger dipole-dipole forces, which result from partial charge separation in the molecule. One particularly strong force is hydrogen bonding, which results from a positive hydrogen atom in one molecule being tugged to molecules containing lone pairs of negative electrons (they are called lone pairs because they don't participate in the covalent bonds between valence, or outer shell, electrons). Molecules with flourine, nitrogen or oxygen atoms are particularly prone to this attraction.
  What about intramolecular forces? Electrons play a big role here as well. Recall that the atom is composed of three particles: electrons, neutrons, and protons. Neutrons and protons reside in the nucleus, while electrons inhabit "concentric" shells that surround the nucleus. Complex probability density equations describe the regions where electrons may be found in these shells, while other equations govern the movement of electrons between shells. Much to Cogzoid's probable displeasure, I will ignore them, as well as the accompanying jargon, in favor of a common and very loose analogy.
  Think of the nucleus as being a small village in the center of concentric, circular towns. Or imagine the conventional model of the solar system. Let's say a villager wishes to locate an electron in a surrounding town. One might start by finding which town, or orbit, the electron inhabits. Then one would locate the hotel at which the hotel rests. Then one calls the hotel clerk to find the room number. With this information, one goes to the room, opens the door, and finds the electron sleeping on the left side of the bed. We've accomplished our goal at last! This represents the heart of quantum numbers and electron configurations.
  Why is this important? Because electrical interactions govern bonding as well as the structure of the atom. The problem is, they are in turn influenced by the nucleus. After all, without the nucleus, there is no atom; without the atom, no baryonic matter (you know, the stuff of Cogzoid's dreams). And what is the nucleus made of? Quarks, of course (with a little help from gluons).
 In fact, there is a specific quark blueprint that determines whether or not a particle will be a proton or neutron. Recall that a proton possesses a +1 charge. Why? Because protons are composed of three quarks - two up quarks, each with a +2/3 charge, and a down quark, with a -1/3 charge. Neutrons reverse this scheme, with two down quarks and only one up quark. If you sum the charges, you'll see why neutrons are, well, neutral.
 Now here's the interesting part. A particle isn't necessarily frozen in one identity: a neutron, for example, can decay into a proton, electron, and antineutrino during beta decay (in this case, beta - decay). But if you check a Feynman diagram, you will see that there is an intermediate step in which the neutron emits a proton and W-boson, which in turn splits into the electron/antineutrino lepton/antilepton pair.
 How does this transformation happen? By a down quark "flipping" into an up quark! Although electrons themselves are considered point particles, they can be created by a quark flavor change, which in turn changes the identity of the matter in question. Of course, there are other examples, but this will suffice for now. For more detail, check here.

 In other words, I stand behind my statement. :D

3) Was Paley's lepton comment appropriate?
 In a word, no. Although literally true - "heavier particles" such as the gauge W / Z bosons do carry the weak force - the statement, despite the insertion of the word "or", clearly implies that leptons carry the weak force. But in gloating over this error, Cogzoid made a mistake of his own in implying that protons carry the electromagnetic and weak forces:
Quote
Looking at your website it's apparent that leptons DO NOT carry the electro-weak force.  Photons and W and Z Bosons do that.  First paragraph, too.  I'm dissappointed, Paley.

 So if my mistake constitutes an impeachable sin, how should we interpret Cogzoid's blunder? Being charitable, I will pass it off as sloppy wording. Notice, however, that I corrected my mistake, while Cogzoid snipped around his. Don't worry Cogzie, I forgive you. :)

4) Finally, do I imply that neutrinos aren't leptons?
Perhaps, but if you check the structure of the offending sentence, you'll see that I was attempting to contrast the neutrino's small rest mass with the mass of W/Z gauge bosons. In other words, I created an objection by attempting to thwart another. Oh well.
 
 I hope this helps.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,10:13   

Based on the length of this discussion and the disagreements on quantum-mechanical minutiae, I'm estimating we'll get to discussion of using Cepheids to come to an agreement on the value of Hubbell's constant in, oh, 2016.

By the way, have we cleared up misunderstandings regarding the consensus phylogenetic tree, or is that still on the menu (to be discussed starting in the fall of 2025)?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,10:51   

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Cogzoid, you are priceless; you're not just a peach, you're an Evopeach! With your permission, I'd like to dub thee "Roshi" - you've certainly earned the title. But I digress.
And now name calling?  C'mon, Paley, let's keep this civil.

Quote
1) Did Paley confuse dark matter with dark energy?
Not really. Paley was just following the train of Cogzoid's thought. Since we were discussing matter at the time, Paley correctly divined Cogzoid's real meaning. Since Cogzoid owned up to this gaffe, the discussion wasn't harmed.
A careful re-reading of the posts at hand will reveal that indeed Paley was the first to refer to dark matter.  Specifically "Dionysian dark matter".

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2) Was Paley wrong when he used the phrase, "requisite quark structure"?
As Cogzoid so elegantly explained, electrostatic forces govern intermolecular attraction...
Yes, quark structure is sufficient.  But it is not necessary.  One could hold Positronium in your hand, although for an exceedingly short amount of time.  You can see that muonium could also be held, and for longer (a couple of microseconds).  Look, ma!  No quarks!  So no, "requisite quark structure" isn't required for exotic materials to be held in one's hand.  One could imagine an even more stable material that could be held in one's hand for longer.  Also, let's not be fooled.  Electrons aren't required for something to be held in one's hand, either.  The only thing that is "requisite" is that the material reacts with the electroweak force.  Something that Paley's material does.  It was a fair question, and it recieved an answer that demonstrated a lack of understanding on Paley's part.

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But in gloating over this error, Cogzoid made a mistake of his own in implying that protons carry the electromagnetic and weak forces:
Electromagnetic and Weak forces are one in the same.  No mistake on my part, no need for forgiveness on yours.

Please, continue with the theory.  I'm genuinely curious where it will lead.

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,12:27   

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And now name calling?  C'mon, Paley, let's keep this civil.

Name calling????
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A careful re-reading of the posts at hand will reveal that indeed Paley was the first to refer to dark matter.  Specifically "Dionysian dark matter".

 At best, this proves we conflated the same concepts.
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Yes, quark structure is sufficient.

Apology accepted. ;)
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But it is not necessary.  One could hold Positronium in your hand, although for an exceedingly short amount of time.  You can see that muonium could also be held, and for longer (a couple of microseconds).  Look, ma!  No quarks!  So no, "requisite quark structure" isn't required for exotic materials to be held in one's hand.

 Cogzie, you were born too late: you would have made one #### of a scholastic philosopher. :D
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It was a fair question, and it recieved an answer that demonstrated a lack of understanding on Paley's part.

I demonstrated my understanding in the previous post. Unless you really believe that I learned all that within a day. Gee, mebbe ah hain't sech a bad student aftuh all.
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Electromagnetic and Weak forces are one in the same.  No mistake on my part, no need for forgiveness on yours.

 You don't realise it, but you just won a bet for me. But I can't let you slide on this one. From your source:
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Although these two forces appear very different at everyday low energies, the theory models them as two different aspects of the same force. Above the unification energy, on the order of 102 GeV, they would merge into a single electroweak force.

Mathematically, the unification is accomplished under an SU(2) × U(1) gauge group. The corresponding gauge bosons are the photon of electromagnetism and the W and Z bosons of the weak force. [my emphasis]

 At the very least, your statement was misleading. Why can't you just say, "Sorry, bad wording guys"? Typos and awkward phrases happen; check out my last post, for example:
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But in gloating over this error, Cogzoid made a mistake of his own in implying that protons carry the electromagnetic and weak forces:

 Boy that dumb Paley, what with him mixin' up his photons and protons and all.......

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Based on the length of this discussion and the disagreements on quantum-mechanical minutiae, I'm estimating we'll get to discussion of using Cepheids to come to an agreement on the value of Hubbell's constant in, oh, 2016.

By the way, have we cleared up misunderstandings regarding the consensus phylogenetic tree, or is that still on the menu (to be discussed starting in the fall of 2025)?

 You know, I remember that Stephen King once claimed that he had to stop writing The Stand for a while because the book had turned into his personal Vietnam. I didn't understand him then, but I think I do now. But I'll muddle on anyway.........

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,12:51   

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At the very least, your statement was misleading. Why can't you just say, "Sorry, bad wording guys"?


I said:
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it's apparent that leptons DO NOT carry the electro-weak force.  Photons and W and Z Bosons do that.
I fail to see what I need to apologize for.  It's a simple fact.  And it's 100% correct.  Typos and awkard phrases happen.  (And yes, I saw your pRoton typo, and let it slide, because I know what you meant.)  However, this is not a typo or awkward phrase.  It's a correct phrase and you're still complaining.  Stop stalling and get on with the theory.

-Dan

  
ericmurphy



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,13:36   

Forget the Cepheid variables; I wonder when gravity will enter the discussion. We've only gotten through two (or is it one?) of four forces. And from what I've understood from Bill so far (which admittedly isn't much), I'm beginning to wonder if gravity even figures into GOP's TOE at all.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,13:37   

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I fail to see what I need to apologize for.  It's a simple fact.  And it's 100% correct.

    Just like my lepton statement, taken literally, was 100% correct. But the two statements are still misleading. Why do you think I asked this question in the very next post?
Quote
By the way, are you implying that photons carry the weak force? Or is it just the massive gauge bosons?

 You didn't respond, although it would have given you a perfect opportunity to justify your choice of words.

  I know, I know, you think I'm making a lot out of nothing, and you're probably correct. But this stubborness, this inability to admit the dreaded amateur might have a valid point to make, is symptomatic of the gulf between scientists and the public (not that I'm pinning this on you; you seem like a reasonable enough fellow to me). Let's return to one of Mr. Cordova's comments:
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Darwinists are perennially distasteful when they're trying to defend their theory, not really very well humored....

   You may not understand his meaning, but talk to the average American and I bet he'd give you an earful. If you guys would only listen to him, you just might make some headway.
   Well, that's enough of that. You don't have to respond, but I'd appreciate if some of you would think about this issue. Anyway, back to the fun, and keep those questions flowing.......

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,14:01   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 08 2005,19:37)
Let's return to one of Mr. Cordova's comments:
Quote
Darwinists are perennially distasteful when they're trying to defend their theory, not really very well humored....

   You may not understand his meaning, but talk to the average American and I bet he'd give you an earful. If you guys would only listen to him, you just might make some headway.
   Well, that's enough of that. You don't have to respond, but I'd appreciate if some of you would think about this issue. Anyway, back to the fun, and keep those questions flowing.......

Not being a scientist, and hence never having had to defend my life's work against sniping from those manifestly unqualified to have an opinion on the subject at hand, I can nevertheless understand why evolutionary biologists might become short-tempered when going over the same old ground with someone who insists he or she "isn't descended from monkeys," who insists "there's no evidence for evolution," "there are no examples of traditional life forms," "no one can say evolution happened because no one was there to witness it," etc. It can't be very much fun. Particle physicists don't have to go through it, cosmologists don't (for the most part, YECs notwithstanding), chemists, don't. If I were a practicing "Darwinist," or evolutionary biologist, I'd probably be feeling rather peeved and humorless these days. Given that IDists are only slightly less hostile to their work than your average garden-variety YEC, I can also see why many biologists fail to make what in their eyes is no doubt a distinction without a difference.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 08 2005,15:11   

Quote
Just like my lepton statement, taken literally, was 100% correct. But the two statements are still misleading. Why do you think I asked this question in the very next post?
I am not held to answering all of your questions, Paley.  I was clear in my original wording.  Your misunderstanding of a simple statement is not my fault.

Quote
I know, I know, you think I'm making a lot out of nothing, and you're probably correct. But this stubborness, this inability to admit the dreaded amateur might have a valid point to make, is symptomatic of the gulf between scientists and the public
Hey, buddy, I'm listening to your theory.  I'm not dismissing it outright.  I'm just asking questions and pointing out some small inconsistencies in your language.  But, at the moment we're discussing some fundamental physics which you are not contending.  Hence, we are both accepting the standard model.  The standard model doesn't have alot of flexibility.  Don't pretend that you're making some grandiose strides in electroweak theory, and that I'm upturning my nose.  You've made some mistakes and I'm correcting you.  Keep in mind who is challenging who, regarding your developing of this theory.

-Dan

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2005,07:48   



 A lesson on appearances versus reality:

The above fellow obtained a Bachelor's Degree in mathematics and a Master's in education from the University of Cincinnati, taught high-school math before pursuing another career, but still tutors at-risk youth in his spare time. What does he do for a living? The first person with the correct answer doesn't win anything except the respect of cool people everywhere.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
celtic_elk



Posts: 11
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2005,08:01   

Quote
The above fellow obtained a Bachelor's Degree in mathematics and a Master's in education from the University of Cincinnati, taught high-school math before pursuing another career, but still tutors at-risk youth in his spare time. What does he do for a living? The first person with the correct answer doesn't win anything except the respect of cool people everywhere.


He's a professional athlete, probably from a team based in or near Atlantic City.   I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with this question.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 09 2005,08:59   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Dec. 09 2005,13:48)
A lesson on appearances versus reality:

The above fellow obtained a Bachelor's Degree in mathematics...

Doesn't this post belong in the "State of Denial" thread? I'd like to get past quarks, hadrons, nuclei, and maybe even molecules sometime before the end of the decade...

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 10 2005,05:33   

Quote
He's a professional athlete, probably from a team based in or near Atlantic City.   I'm not sure exactly what point you're trying to make with this question.

  Yes, the sign provides a few clues, but shouldn't be taken at face value. Hopefully, the point will become clearer when his identity is revealed.

Quote
Doesn't this post belong in the "State of Denial" thread? I'd like to get past quarks, hadrons, nuclei, and maybe even molecules sometime before the end of the decade...

I'm working on it, I'm working on it. You won't be disappointed; it's a Duesy, I tells ya.......Come on guys, don't let me down. Surely one of you must know....Sir Toejam? Cogzie?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 10 2005,23:42   

Nope, no guess from me.  I'm not good at celebrity spotting in general.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2005,10:11   

Well guys, I have to admit I'm a little surprised. Then again, he's not exactly a household name, and an appreciation for this man's talent is usually scarce on g-loaded fora like this one. But your intellects should be able to divine my point after seeing this page. (You may have to click past an annoying ad to get where you want).

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2005,18:12   

An athlete who is educated and a good person.  He sounds like a fine role model.  It's too bad that there aren't more like him.  But, what's your point, Paley?

  
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