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oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2007,04:48    I know they've been around a long time and the UK goverment has come out against ID and Creationism in the classroom but some of their proposed "lesson" plans are simply unbelievable. Natural Selection   Quote Carry out a simulation of selection. Use red and green plastic cocktail sticks - a hundred of each colour will be required. Randomly distribute the sticks in a 15 x 15 m square of grass before the lesson. In groups of 6 learners, ask pupils to act as ‘song thrushes’ predating the red and green ‘Cepaea snails’. They are allowed to predate for 30 sec’s to collect as many snails as possible. Results are scored individually. Repeat a number of times and total the number of ‘snails’ predated for each of the ‘birds’. The selective advantage of the green snails should be evident. Provide some real (second-hand) data to confirm this. Emphasize that this particular example does not involve the formation of any new species and note that this is not proper evidence for Darwin’s hypothesis of universal common ancestry From a fossil "lesson plan"   Quote Occasionally, fake fossils have been artificially produced. Examples include ‘Piltdown man’ and some Chinese fossils. How have the fakes been detected? What motivated the fakers? Has anyone ever mistaken a genuine fossil for a fake? Research and write a 200 word essay. Homology   Quote Homologous structures - such as the vertebrate gut – can arise from very different developmental pathways. How does this contradict predictions arising from common ancestry? IC Quote Irreducible complexity has sometimes been illustrated using a mousetrap. Research this on the internet and write 150 words summarising arguments for and against. The website claims ID is being treated "unfairly" but uses language like this Quote By contrasting molecules-to-man evolution with a view of species fixity which is impossible to hold scientifically, textbooks misrepresent the choice faced by pupils in their beliefs about their own origins. Very FTK. Their conclusion is Quote The ways in which some textbooks present evolution and its alternatives are neither fair nor scientific. Rather than teaching pupils to think critically,  these textbooks are indoctrinating them using poor arguments. School children should be given the opportunity to properly understand different views on our origins, so that they can come to well informed conclusions about this important issue. If all of the above was honestly followed, children would laugh IDC out of the classroom. -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2007,06:46    Chris Hyland would, I suspect, be blogging about this more if the UK still had anything to fear from Andy MacIntosh et al. OT: you must be as bored as I am, Oldman...

Venus Mousetrap Posts: 201 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2007,08:00    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 08 2007,04:48) I know they've been around a long time and the UK goverment has come out against ID and Creationism in the classroom but some of their proposed "lesson" plans are simply unbelievable. Natural Selection     Quote Carry out a simulation of selection. Use red and green plastic cocktail sticks - a hundred of each colour will be required. Randomly distribute the sticks in a 15 x 15 m square of grass before the lesson. In groups of 6 learners, ask pupils to act as ‘song thrushes’ predating the red and green ‘Cepaea snails’. They are allowed to predate for 30 sec’s to collect as many snails as possible. Results are scored individually. Repeat a number of times and total the number of ‘snails’ predated for each of the ‘birds’. The selective advantage of the green snails should be evident. Provide some real (second-hand) data to confirm this. Emphasize that this particular example does not involve the formation of any new species and note that this is not proper evidence for Darwin’s hypothesis of universal common ancestry From a fossil "lesson plan"   Homology IC   Quote Irreducible complexity has sometimes been illustrated using a mousetrap. Research this on the internet and write 150 words summarising arguments for and against. The website claims ID is being treated "unfairly" but uses language like this   Quote By contrasting molecules-to-man evolution with a view of species fixity which is impossible to hold scientifically, textbooks misrepresent the choice faced by pupils in their beliefs about their own origins. Very FTK. Their conclusion is   Quote The ways in which some textbooks present evolution and its alternatives are neither fair nor scientific. Rather than teaching pupils to think critically,  these textbooks are indoctrinating them using poor arguments. School children should be given the opportunity to properly understand different views on our origins, so that they can come to well informed conclusions about this important issue. If all of the above was honestly followed, children would laugh IDC out of the classroom. These people make me feel so ill inside. That they have the gall to accuse the honest side of what they are doing appalls me. And you'd think I'd be accustomed to it after two years. Quote Carry out a simulation of selection. Use red and green plastic cocktail sticks - a hundred of each colour will be required. Randomly distribute the sticks in a 15 x 15 m square of grass before the lesson. In groups of 6 learners, ask pupils to act as ‘song thrushes’ predating the red and green ‘Cepaea snails’. They are allowed to predate for 30 sec’s to collect as many snails as possible. Results are scored individually. Repeat a number of times and total the number of ‘snails’ predated for each of the ‘birds’. The selective advantage of the green snails should be evident. Provide some real (second-hand) data to confirm this. Emphasize that this particular example does not involve the formation of any new species and note that this is not proper evidence for Darwin’s hypothesis of universal common ancestry This is especially greasy. And I can do this too: In groups of six, have pupils design mousetraps. Emphasize that this particular example does not involve the creation of any new species and note that this is not proper evidence for Dembski's hypothesis of intelligent design. Quote Occasionally, fake fossils have been artificially produced. Examples include ‘Piltdown man’ and some Chinese fossils. How have the fakes been detected? What motivated the fakers? Has anyone ever mistaken a genuine fossil for a fake? Research and write a 200 word essay. SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY, YOU SHITS. You want kids to think that maybe scientists are wrong about everything? Say it, cowards! The church seriously needs to crack down on these wankers, or Jesus won't have any credibility left.

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2007,08:49    Can I play too? Quote Occasionally, fake science has been artificially produced. Examples include ‘Darwin's Black Box’ and some farty noises. How have the fakes been detected? What motivated the fakers? Has anyone ever mistaken genuine science for a fart? Research and write a 200 word essay. I was an undergrad in Leeds, where McIntosh is a professor.  Luckily I didn't do chemistry. My impression is that thee guys haven't gained any traction - there isn't the support on the ground that there is in the US, so when they sent their crap round to schools, I suspect most teachers just laughed at them over coffee. Bob -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 08 2007,16:05    I am ashamed to say that Northern Ireland is an absolute hotbed of young Earth creationism. It's probably worse here than in the US. Every evangelical denomination (and I do mean all of them......the Brethren movement, Baptist, Elim, Congregational, Congregational Reformed, Free Presbyterian, Reformed Presbyterian, Evangelical Presbyterian, Free Methodist, Independant Methodist etc. etc. etc.) is heavily promoting YECism. It's even found it's way into the largest Protestant denomination in the province, the Presbyterian church in Ireland. A number of it's congregations are the venues for Monty White's (CEO of AiG UK) tour in the province next month. One of these is Belfast Central Mission, the church's outreach arm. When Ken Ham spoke in Belfast in March 2005 he attracted almost 2,000 people. It was the largest creation meeting in the whole of Europe, according to Ham. Monty White will also speak at the Crescent church (in the heart of Belfast's University area). The meeting will be attended by nearly a thousand (mostly young i.e. 20/30's) people. One lay preacher at the Crescent is Professor Norman Nevin. Nevin is also a highly respected UK geneticist: http://www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/genetics/gtac/proceedings2001.htm     Quote Biographies of the Speakers: Professor Norman Nevin: Norman C. Nevin is Professor of Medical Genetics, Queen's University of Belfast and Head of the Northern Regional Genetics Service. He has held the positions of secretary, vice-president and president of the UK Clinical Genetics Society as well as serving on various national and international committees notably the Human Genetics Advisory Commission. He is a member of the European Concerted Action for congenital abnormalities. Professor Nevin was a founder member of the UK Gene Therapy Advisory Committee (GTAC) and is currently its' chairman. His research interests have resulted in over 300 peer reviewed publications on various aspects of genetics, especially single gene disorders and congenital abnormalities. Nevin has apparently backed Truth in Science: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs...._1.html It seems that young Earth creationism (in the guise of Truth in Science), for some strange reason, is attracting some very highly qualified and talented scientists !

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,02:41    That is worrying, Peter. Your link to that blog had some interesting comments. Well done, Guthrie.

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,05:00    I find it disturbing Alan, that so many churches in the province are now YEC and I didn't even mention the independant ones like Glenabbey fellowship (where Philip Johnstone has spoken) or the Iron Hall. Only the Methodist church in Ireland, The Church of Ireland (Anglican), and the Roman Catholic appear to be immune from the phenomenon, although, that is not to say there are YEC's among those denominations as well. The YEC's seem to be being being driven by a somewhat obscure organisation called the Caleb foundation: http://www.calebfoundation.org/index.htm which I'd never heard of until Roger Stanyard of the BCSE drew my attention to it: http://bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/CalebFoundation I've been going on about YECism in the Province for some time now and I am at a loss as to what to do. None of the church leaders here have condemned it. I may have a go at writing to the Belfast Telegraph in response to an article they did on the creation museum a few weeks ago : http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/feature....017.ece So far it's provoked one letter: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/letters/article2912182.ece but the reader seems somewhat naive of YECism (Ham can answer most of the questions raised !) I'm disappointed at both Nevin and DeGroot though. I've always had a lot of respect for Nevin both as a preacher and a scientist. He's done a great deal of work in the field of genetics here, especially in working with abnormalities in children and during pregnancy. He always took a more understanding/liberal line on the question of abortion for example. Mart DeGroot was a highly respected astronomer in the province. He wrote a monthly "night sky" column in the Belfast Telegraph (which I always read) for many years, and didn't give any indication he was a YEC. He's apparently a prominent member of the Seventh Day Adventist Church here. As readers of this blog probably already know, this denomination is one of those that founded the modern YEC movement. George McCready Price was a member.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,11:13    Quote but the reader seems somewhat naive of YECism This may be a good thing. Maybe creationism in NI is still flying below the political radar. If it is to gain a political foothold, it will have to be more visible, and I (naively?) can't believe that there are not enough politically-aware people to see this movement for what it is. At least there is the US example to point them to. Lenny Flank might be your man for practical advice.

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,14:26    Actually, if someone has a flareup, the National Center for Science Education does provide advice and assistance for people in other countries, and have helped folks deal with antievolution stuff in Italy, the UK, Canada, and Poland, IIRC. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 09 2007,20:35    maybe it's some kind of weird nationalistic movement.  The monk that formulated the 6000 yr old Earth was an Irishman, unfortunately.

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,08:01    Quote (Peter Henderson @ Sep. 08 2007,16:05) I am ashamed to say that Northern Ireland is an absolute hotbed of young Earth creationism. It's probably worse here than in the US. Every evangelical denomination (and I do mean all of them......the Brethren movement, Baptist, Elim, Congregational, Congregational Reformed, Free Presbyterian, Reformed Presbyterian, Evangelical Presbyterian, Free Methodist, Independant Methodist etc. etc. etc.) is heavily promoting YECism. It's even found it's way into the largest Protestant denomination in the province, the Presbyterian church in Ireland. That's very worrying.  It still doesn't seem to have made much progress south of the border.  But with the increase in evangelicals here due to the big increases in immigration and with the decline of the Catholic church, there might be soon. Has it become political yet, do you know?  Have the DUP (Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party, for those who don't read Irish alphabet soup) shown any interest in promoting creationism?

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,16:32    Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 09 2007,02:41) That is worrying, Peter. Your link to that blog had some interesting comments. Well done, Guthrie. CHeers.   But it always amazes me how people try and warp science etc.  That was rather a long knock down and drag out fight, and I was annoyed throughout it.

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 10 2007,17:08    Quote That's very worrying.  It still doesn't seem to have made much progress south of the border.  But with the increase in evangelicals here due to the big increases in immigration and with the decline of the Catholic church, there might be soon. Has it become political yet, do you know?  Have the DUP (Ian Paisley's Democratic Unionist Party, for those who don't read Irish alphabet soup) shown any interest in promoting creationism? Although it doesn't seem to be as widespread in the ROI George, I seem to remember Ham saying that he had a good turnout when he spoke there (I think the venue was Cork) in 2005. Paisley has never spoken publicly on the subject, to my knowledge, but the religious shools being run by his church are teaching it as science. Several of his congregations are hosting AiG speakers both this month (Paul Taylor) and in October (Monty White). Taylor has gained access to a school in Lisburn, although it's outside school hours, so it's probably a case of AiG renting out the premises. The contact name at that event is the same as the one at Hillsborough Free Presbyterian. I think there seems to be a lot of ignorance as to the nature of AiG in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland though. Some ministers, realising the controversial nature of creation, ignore the subject altogether, while others that I've spoken to haven't a clue about AiG's teachings. This means that the YEC ministers can promote the doctrine with little apparent resistance. The church hierarchy appear not to care about what is happening and don't see it as a serious threat. Because we have a national curriculum, it probably isn't the same as in the US. However, it's my view that academic selection at 11 in the province, appears to have contributed to a large number of people leaving school with little or no qualifications at all. Something is obviously wrong with the system when so many are prepared to accept such an outdated view of science. But then again, maybe the situation is the same as that in the Southern  Baptist states. This type of mindset has probably always been there. The YECs are merely tapping into it. Quote But it always amazes me how people try and warp science etc.  That was rather a long knock down and drag out fight, and I was annoyed throughout it. Crawley seems to be the only one who is exposing it for what it is Guthrie. There's a very good interview with Ham in his archives which is well worth a listen. Still, I admire you for having a go. YEC's are very difficult to debate, even though the science is so wrong. You have to be well "genned-up" with the claims

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2007,07:24    IIRC, most of the claims on that thread were more into metaphysics and so on.   Then another example is that "Exiled from Groggs" chap, who is linked to on various ID friendly websites.  Corkscrew did a good job on him, and a few of the rest of us chipped in.  Once he'd been worn down enough to admit that his problem with evolution was that he believed that science was not enough for anything like this, you needed religion, that was great.  He was admitting the limits of what he believed and knew, and it cleared the air somewhat.  Of course not all ID supporters are as honest.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2007,12:14    I have got to know a couple recently moved here from Belfast. ( The husband remembers Prof. Nevin from his days at Queens). I had naively assumed my English experience of a gently fading religious aspect would be the same in NI. They have corrected my misapprehension. It appears NI is quite a hotbed of religious fundamentalism, and perhaps there is a real possibility of US-style creationism getting a foothold. At least there is the US experience to learn from. Have any schools started to use the "Truth in Science" packs? Maybe there is mileage in a legal challenge, if so.

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2007,13:12    Quote (Peter Henderson @ Sep. 10 2007,17:08) But then again, maybe the situation is the same as that in the Southern  Baptist states. This type of mindset has probably always been there. The YECs are merely tapping into it. I'm originally from Tennessee, and from what you describe, it sound similar to the Southern Baptist situation.  What seemed most prevalent there is a few ringleader types selling the "evolution is atheism, evolution is evil" line to those who don't know any better.  They accept the lines fed by their leaders without questioning much.   Or maybe susceptibility to creationism has a genetic component?  They say that a lot of the white settlers in east Tennessee and the Appalachians were from Ulster.  Can I get a grant to study the possibility of an "I ain't no monkey" gene, do you reckon?

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2007,13:32    Quote (Alan Fox @ Sep. 11 2007,12:14) At least there is the US experience to learn from. Have any schools started to use the "Truth in Science" packs? Maybe there is mileage in a legal challenge, if so. Oddly enough, Truthiness in science don't seem to want to identify the schools.

Peter Henderson Posts: 298 Joined: Aug. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 11 2007,14:41    Quote I have got to know a couple recently moved here from Belfast. ( The husband remembers Prof. Nevin from his days at Queens). I had naively assumed my English experience of a gently fading religious aspect would be the same in NI. Church attendance is still fairly high in the province Alan. However, there are a wide range of views, even though the Fundamentalists often shout the loudest. The fact that all the evangelical denominations are YEC is not that dissimilar from the situation in the rest of the UK. It's just that there are less people in England Scotland and Wales that attend these denominations. For example, if you read Ham's blog on his visit to Scotland it seems that things didn't go as well as he had hoped. 300 people in a city 3 times the size of Belfast is a dissapointing turnout for such a major figure in the world of young Earth creationism. He was also complaining that people weren't buying his DVDs/books etc. blaming this on the cost of living in the UK. Nonsense in my opinion.   Quote Have any schools started to use the "Truth in Science" packs? Maybe there is mileage in a legal challenge, if so. Apparently there are several schools here where the pupils (seriously !) have asked for ID to be taught as science as an alternative to evolution : http://www.calebfoundation.org/page6.htm     Quote Cases of persecution of students who openly espouse Creationist views by teachers have been reported to the Council. One sixth-form female student, studying for GCSE’s in a School in Craigavon was bold enough to speak out in class, and to testify that she believed in a Divine Creator, who made the world. The girl, then 15, was openly mocked by the teacher, and afterwards subjected to weeks of open ridicule in class. The girl’s parents complained to the Head Teacher, and threatened to instigate a disciplinary action, whereupon the teacher was forced to apologise, and to back down. How often does this happen, and we don’t hear about it? Together we can make a stand against anti-Creationist bigotry in our schools, and force CCEA to treat us with equity. David McConaghie, who often appears on Sunday Sequence along with McIntosh, is aggresivly anti-science. A couple of years ago Ronald Numbers along with a leading UK biologist, attempted to debate the pair. They were both "shouted down", so to speak, such was the nature of McConaghie and McIntosh's debating skills. Numbers was speaking at QUB at the time so I'm sorry I missed his visit. On a slightly different note, my brother has a fairly senior position in the Department of education here. Although he attends a large Baptist church, he tells me the pastor has never mentioned creation (the church did advertise Ham's visit on their website though) . He is not a YEC, and would hold a similar position to myself (TE). He tells me that he's aware of ID and the parliamentary questions tabled in the House of Commons. I've tried to encourage him to watch Ken Miller's talk on Youtube (still available), which gives an excellent insight into the Dover case.   George: am I right in thinking that modern creationism (YEC's) began with the Seventh Day Adeventists and in particular Ellen G. White ? I think prior to George McCready Price and the Scopes trial, many Evangelicals were OEC's. You may be correct about the Ulster Scots connection though. The Andrew Jackson homestead is just a few miles down the road from here, near the village of Eden !.

steveastrouk Posts: 2 Joined: July 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2007,00:32    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Sep. 08 2007,04:48) Quote Carry out a simulation of selection. Use red and green plastic cocktail sticks - a hundred of each colour will be required. Randomly distribute the sticks in a 15 x 15 m square of grass before the lesson. In groups of 6 learners, ask pupils to act as ‘song thrushes’ predating the red and green ‘Cepaea snails’. They are allowed to predate for 30 sec’s to collect as many snails as possible. Results are scored individually. Repeat a number of times and total the number of ‘snails’ predated for each of the ‘birds’. The selective advantage of the green snails should be evident. Is there a way of making a simple classroom demonstration of natural selection work properly, by using some statistics ? Just curious. Steve

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2007,10:00    Quote David McConaghie, who often appears on Sunday Sequence along with McIntosh, is aggresivly anti-science. What is "Sunday Sequence"? Never mind.

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2007,10:16    Apparently Fuller is appearing on the Crawley radio show next week some time.  It will be mildly amusing to see what he says.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 13 2007,11:00    Quote (guthrie @ Sep. 13 2007,05:16) Apparently Fuller is appearing on the Crawley radio show next week some time.  It will be mildly amusing to see what he says. Well, I reckon Fuller is a great asset for the evolutionary side. Long may he keep pontificating

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