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Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,09:57    On the next thread, he's telling me why evolution didn't happen. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Badger3k Posts: 861 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,10:02    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,09:57) On the next thread, he's telling me why evolution didn't happen. All I can think of is to borrow a phrase from 2001 (if memory serves): "It's full of idiots." -------------- "Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,10:05    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,09:57) On the next thread, he's telling me why evolution didn't happen. Because there's no such thing as accumulated small teaspoons, I guess. Joe:   Quote I am talking about plain ole black & white information that humans (in general) use on a daily basis. Then why refer to "information"? Are you saying that a definition of a word isn't information? WTF? Oh, JHC. Kristine:   Quote No, Joe, that is not what I am saying. Calm down. I am saying that you are conflating different defintions and therefore making a fallacious argument. The definition of a word as you use it here (plain use) has nothing to do with the amount of information in the word in Shannon's terms. You're confusing the two. Anyway, look at a recipe and see if t and T are not in fact different amounts of baking soda. (t = teaspoon, T = tablespoon) I'm doing you a favor, you see? Joe's putting on his wife-beater t-shirt and stomping to the kitchen, I suspect. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,10:18    Joe G = Walter Mitty http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y141082 -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,10:23    Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 26 2009,10:05) Oh, JHC. Kristine:   Quote No, Joe, that is not what I am saying. Calm down. I am saying that you are conflating different defintions and therefore making a fallacious argument. The definition of a word as you use it here (plain use) has nothing to do with the amount of information in the word in Shannon's terms. You're confusing the two. Anyway, look at a recipe and see if t and T are not in fact different amounts of baking soda. (t = teaspoon, T = tablespoon) I'm doing you a favor, you see? Joe's putting on his wife-beater t-shirt and stomping to the kitchen, I suspect. Ah, but 2T = 6t and, by Joe's methodology, 2t and 6t have the same amount of information.  Therefore, his point stands. -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

olegt Posts: 1405 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,11:06    Joe comes as close as he ever will to conceding the elusive nature of CSI:   Quote One final note- the point of CSI is to know whether or not it is present. Its presence is a signal of intentional design. Getting an exact number, although good for parlor games, may or may not be of any use scientifically. Shorter CSI: we just know it's designed. -------------- If you are not: Galapagos Finch please Logout »

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,11:21    Quote (olegt @ Mar. 26 2009,11:06) Joe comes as close as he ever will to conceding the elusive nature of CSI:       Quote One final note- the point of CSI is to know whether or not it is present. Its presence is a signal of intentional design. Getting an exact number, although good for parlor games, may or may not be of any use scientifically. Shorter CSI: we just know it's designed. Present in what way? Animals engage in sexual selection. It's not intelligent design in the way Joe means, but it's not random. Shall we redefine intelligence as any nonrandom selection, or as a strategy involving an instinct? Because that's what he's doing! Do they really want to make, say, ducks the Designer? -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,11:49    Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 26 2009,10:21) Do they really want to make, say, ducks the Designer? Sounds like a Daffy idea.

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,16:24    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 26 2009,09:57) On the next thread, he's telling me why evolution didn't happen. Well, here. Quote "The model of punctuated equilibria does not maintain that nothing occurs gradually at any level of evolution. It is a theory about speciation and its deployment in the fossil record. It claims that an important pattern, continuous at higher levels—the 'classic' macroevolutionary trend—is a consequence of punctuation in the evolution of species. It does not deny that allopatric speciation occurs gradually in ecological time (though it might not—see Carson, 1975), but only asserts that this scale is a geological microsecond." Gould and Eldredge. (1977). "Invalid claims of gradualism made at the wrong scale." p.121. We’ll see if this falls into a hole. Joe must be thinking really hard about what I said about teaspoons and Tablespoons. Yeah that must be it. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

clamboy Posts: 299 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,18:35    I find it hard to believe that no one...NO ONE, I say...has pointed out that Joe G's cake recipe calls for: 1) adding the WET ingredients to the DRY ingredients AND.....(dear lord! *choke*)..... 2) adding them ONE  AT  A  TIME!!!!! This is supposed to be a cake! A CAKE, DAMN YOUR EYES!!! NOT.....MUFFINS!!!!!!!

Hermagoras Posts: 1260 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,21:51    There is so much quotable stupidity in this cake argument.  It's just rich and delicious, slice after slice.   They're like little tard koans.  Observe: Quote The recipe itself carries with it all the definitions of the words it contains. And again: Quote The more information it takes the farher it is away from being reducible to matter, energy, chance and necessity. Et voilà! Quote So if you really wanted to know the SI of a something all you have to do is to figure out how to make one, write down the instructions, and count the bits. That's right folks.  Write down the instructions.  Count the bits.  Measure SI!  Or the CSI.  Whatevs. Quote Does the information content change if the letters are capitalized? IOW would the definition change? No. Are you feeling stupid yet?   Quote My point is the cake that is baked contains all the information that was used in baking it. A little Dr. Seussy there, huh?   Quote Each cake contains the information required to make it. What if it's only half-baked? -------------- "I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

olegt Posts: 1405 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,22:07    You can have your CSI and eat it, too. -------------- If you are not: Galapagos Finch please Logout »

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,22:55    which one of you guys is joe again? lenny? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2009,23:22    Quote I will say it again- the ONLY reason to ask for the CSI of something is you question how it came to be that way. ALL SCIENCE SO FAR Quote One final note- the point of CSI is to know whether or not it is present. Its presence is a signal of intentional design. Getting an exact number, although good for parlor games, may or may not be of any use scientifically. 'exact number' not being different from zero not a problem Tom Ames has good intentions but these are parlor games remember Quote Actually, an important chunk of the information that goes into the development of, say, a Drosophila embryo comes from gradients in the egg that are determined by the mother. The information arising from these "maternal effects" are not necessarily encoded anywhere in the offspring's genome. KF, plato, cave, sadly always linked etc.  great windup, Tom, I was eagerly awaiting Joes response.  not disappointed Quote So what? Does that mean the offspring does not contain that information? SO!!!??  WHAT???!!!! I would offer here using 'information' as an abstraction for the processes that generate phenotypes is not helpful.  Joe already demonstrates a Pavlovian response to the term and his glaze over, he takes it literally as a property of matter.  And has resisted thinking it through, clearly. 'the offspring', he says, contains that phenotype as 'information'.  Tom refers to the influence of external factors on the development of a phenotype, factors that recursive nonlinear processes.  Joe appears to be under the notion that information is some sort of essential property but has delusions that it may be measured somehow although it is not important but he can do it and you are stupid because you want to see behind the curtain but he will show you because he is a swell guy.  and then doesn't. maybe i'm wrong.  i don't know what the fuck he is on about. oleg can't resist punching the pinata Quote If I make two cakes from the same recipe, do they contain twice as much information? that has bearing on the rambling above.  i can't wait to see his answer.  that's what makes this good tard. Quote Each cake contains the information rtequired in making it. That is it. Period. "Twice as much information" is irrelevant" to the point being made. Do you understand the point- that designed objects contain the information used in making them? Quote Now if you took a recipe and doubled it to make one BIG cake, then that big cake would contain all the information required to make it. WHATEVER that information was. I mean shit you people don't understand that yet? roflmao.  WHAT?  It's irrelevant, just forget you saw it.  You saw nothing.  Look over there. Oleg says "look sugar we need to measure this stuff if we are going to use it.  help us out, pretty please" or something like that.  this is good Quote You NEED to know? NEED? I don't believe you. What do you need it for? BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAA oleg tries one more time to get the point across. Quote If your information is contained in a cake, then I would say that it should be additive. ever seen that dog on americas funniest home videos that keeps attacking its feet? Quote It isn't "my" information. Do you understand the point? Yes or No. The point being that a designed object contains the information required to make it. Do you agree or disagree? If you agree then fine we have nothing left to discuss in this thread. If you disagree fine also. Just demonstrate that a cake can arise without agency involvement. agree with WHAT?  do you agree that seven jumped over anger while malevolence did the moonwalk? Demonstrating why Richard T Hughes is one of my favorite tard warriors Quote Why isn't this Front Page at UD? hahaha it might as well be, these days. you guys are too good to that poor fool.  what a great read. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,00:06    Quote I would offer here using 'information' as an abstraction for the processes that generate phenotypes is not helpful.  Joe already demonstrates a Pavlovian response to the term and his glaze over, he takes it literally as a property of matter. And has resisted thinking it through, clearly. Nice one 'Ras but clearly you are over crediting his ...erm  'thinking'. In Joe's case .....resistance truly is futile. Don't worry Joe you'll never work that one out. -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,00:34    I did done if for you, Rasser. Pavlova response? Glaze.. Cake, Sponge and Icing... -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,00:37    "Copy this sentence" Self-replication well under the UPB...   -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,00:55    But... but... Joe! I'm confused! What about the info added by the frosting? If dingleberry doesn't make my comments appear, I might bake a cake, write down all the instructions, get my bingo club together, go out to his place and ring his doorbell, and throw the damn cake along with the stupid "information" (after I tear it into bits) at his head. -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

carlsonjok Posts: 3326 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,04:03    Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 27 2009,00:55) If dingleberry doesn't make my comments appear, I might bake a cake, write down all the instructions, get my bingo club together, go out to his place and ring his doorbell, and throw the damn cake along with the stupid "information" (after I tear it into bits) at his head. Oh noes!!1!1!1!! -------------- It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,07:48    looks like he is riding the New Scientist tard train now. joe is too dumb to talk to.  i really enjoy when you guys play with him.  i don't have the patience.  i would however like to see him and KF fight to the death with ball point pens. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

olegt Posts: 1405 Joined: Dec. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,08:04    Here is my latest reply to Joe, in which I prove that the CSI of a cake is zero.  The proof is based on Joe's own length-of-recipe definition and common assumptions about information and entropy (e.g. additivity).         Quote Ya see oleg it is AS I HAVE STATED: A designed object contains all the information that went into making it. Yes or no- Do you understand that point? Before I can agree or disagree with a statement I need to have a clear understanding of it. You have steadfastly refused to define your terms, so I will have to fill in the blanks as best I can. On the basis of what you have said and by using what little I know about information and statistics I am forced to conclude that the information content of a cake is zero. Others in this thread and at AtBC have hinted at this outcome, but here is my simple proof. Here are my assumptions. First, I assume along with you that the amount of CSI X in a cake is determined by the number of letters in the recipe. I further assume that CSI, like Shannon information and entropy, is an additive quantity. The third and final assumption is that CSI, like entropy, is a function of state: if two cakes are the same in size and taste, they contain equal amounts of CSI. It does not matter how they were prepared. It follows from these assumptions that the amount of CSI in a cake X=0. To see why this is so, note that the amount of CSI in 2 cakes of the same size is X+X because CSI is additive. On the other hand, a recipe for preparing two cakes can be obtained from a recipe for one by appending the single-word sentence Repeat. It follows that the amount of CSI in the second cake X is based on the number of letters in the sentence Repeat. While that already is a pretty minimal amount of information, we can shrink it a bit further. 4 cakes can be made by appending to the modified recipe another single-word sentence Repeat. The amount of CSI contained in the two new cakes, 2X, is again based on the number of letters in the sentence Repeat. Thus 2X = X, which means X = 0. Q.E.D. I hope this answers your question, Joe. ETA: edited for clarity. -------------- If you are not: Galapagos Finch please Logout »

Kristine Posts: 3061 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,09:30    Quote (carlsonjok @ Mar. 27 2009,04:03)   Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 27 2009,00:55) If dingleberry doesn't make my comments appear, I might bake a cake, write down all the instructions, get my bingo club together, go out to his place and ring his doorbell, and throw the damn cake along with the stupid "information" (after I tear it into bits) at his head. Oh noes!!1!1!1!! I'm not that old, Carsonjok.;) Joe blows:   Quote Kristine, Someone should tell Dawkins about PE. He dedicates a chapter to destroying it (an attempt anyway) in his book "The Blind Watchmaker", because it gores against gradualism- according to him. Me:   Quote Joe, if Dawkins devoted a chapter to PE, I don't have to tell him about it, do I? As a matter of fact, he and I had a discussion about it. It's not the devastation of ToE that creationists think it is. Sorry, but you're harkening back to the old "equal time for creation science" arguments, and as much as I miss the 1970s, I really don't relish this dredged up again. edited to enable emote.:) Edited by Kristine on Mar. 27 2009,09:31 -------------- Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip? AtBC Poet Laureate "I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive "Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

khan Posts: 1554 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,09:33    Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 27 2009,01:55) But... but... Joe! I'm confused! What about the info added by the frosting? If dingleberry doesn't make my comments appear, I might bake a cake, write down all the instructions, get my bingo club together, go out to his place and ring his doorbell, and throw the damn cake along with the stupid "information" (after I tear it into bits) at his head. Theme song for UD (youtube) -------------- "It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad Frequency is just the plural of wavelength... -JoeG

George Posts: 316 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,09:43    Quote (clamboy @ Mar. 26 2009,18:35) I find it hard to believe that no one...NO ONE, I say...has pointed out that Joe G's cake recipe calls for: 1) adding the WET ingredients to the DRY ingredients AND.....(dear lord! *choke*)..... 2) adding them ONE  AT  A  TIME!!!!! This is supposed to be a cake! A CAKE, DAMN YOUR EYES!!! NOT.....MUFFINS!!!!!!! Excellent point.  Joe's no cakeboy.  He's... the Muffin Man!  Hard at work in the laboratory of his Unintelligent Muffin Research Kitchen. "Girl you thought he was a man But he was a muffin He hung around till you found That he didnt know nuthin" - F. Zappa

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,09:47    Or maybe this? TEH CAEK IS A LIE! -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Badger3k Posts: 861 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,09:55    Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Mar. 27 2009,07:48) looks like he is riding the New Scientist tard train now. joe is too dumb to talk to.  i really enjoy when you guys play with him.  i don't have the patience.  i would however like to see him and KF fight to the death with ball point pens. I can hear the Star Trek fight music now.... On the other hand, has anybody tried to figure the CSI of Soylent Cakes? -------------- "Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,10:01    Don't you have to follow all the sub-ingredients down until you have to make matter? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

keiths Posts: 2195 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,10:27    The beautiful thing about Joe is that he won't let it go.  He proves that tard is not a conserved quantity; it contains no CSI and can therefore be produced without limit. -------------- And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

AmandaHuginKiss Posts: 150 Joined: Dec. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,10:28    Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 28 2009,03:01) Don't you have to follow all the sub-ingredients down until you have to make matter? Not only that you need to develop the recipe in such a way that aliens can interpret it otherwise it is just some random gibberish

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 27 2009,10:36    Quote (AmandaHuginKiss @ Mar. 27 2009,10:28) Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 28 2009,03:01) Don't you have to follow all the sub-ingredients down until you have to make matter? Not only that you need to develop the recipe in such a way that aliens can interpret it otherwise it is just some random gibberish TEH_DESIGNER IS A MASTERBAKER. Joe is one mutation of "K" away from the designer. He's also a mass-debater. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

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