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Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,11:13   

Quote
[SNIP]

HE MIGHT BE ONE BUT YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE

What for this time? Have you been drinking exotic hallucinogens from penis gourds again?

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,19:15   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 17 2009,18:15)
     
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,20:26)
The mechanism for said change is the unsettled point.

Good. Time to describe your mechanism.

By the way, "saltation" isn't a mechanism. It is a proposed description of the rate of change (very rapid, even single step) in evolution. It calls for explanation in the form of a mechanism.

Describe your proposed mechanism for saltation. Provide us with an illustration of it operating in a specific instance. The example of chimps and bonobos emerging from a common ancestor will do as an example, although you may prefer another. Your proposed mechanism should offer an explanation for the timing of the saltational events, including divergence of a single population into separate species, the distribution of features among the daughter species, their progressive differentiation, the fact of their adaptation to changing environmental circumstances, and so forth.

Ready, set, GO!

Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles  
Quote
Our study provides, to our knowledge, the first phylogenetic-
based comparative support for saltational changes in the evolution of aggregation pheromones. It therefore raises the question of how these changes come about.


As for chimps/bonobos, that'll have to wait until I have more time.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,19:31   

you moron you are just being dishonest.

why in the bloody hell would you expect gradual evolution of the constituents of pheromones?  You wouldn't.  You would have no expectation, if you were honest (you are not).

if you fucking READ that paper you will find that there is still a phylogenetic signal in pheromone constituents, but that minor changes to those physiological pathways produce large effects in the ultimate pheromone chemistry.  considering changes in pheromone ratios as equal weight to changes in chemistry doesn't seem very reasonable does it?

if you are honest (You Are Not) you will ask yourself what the null hypothesis would be.  Denial, in other words (I know your sorry preaching ass doesn't have a clue what a null hypothesis is) "What is the expected distribution of pheromones within a clade of insects?".  Answer:  Who Fucking Knows.

You win another Gross Misuse of The Concept of Gradualism award, to go with all the others.  Dumb bastard.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,19:34   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 18 2009,20:15)
Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles      
Quote
Our study provides, to our knowledge, the first phylogenetic-
based comparative support for saltational changes in the evolution of aggregation pheromones. It therefore raises the question of how these changes come about.


As for chimps/bonobos, that'll have to wait until I have more time.

Oh brother.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,19:49   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,19:29)
Quote (FrankH @ Feb. 17 2009,08:23)
Daniel,


How many designers are there?  What are some of the characteristics of these designers?


Thanks in advance

Go back and read my previous posts.

I don't try to hide the fact that my designer is the Christian God.

Good.  You admit it and that is what I'm looking for here.

So, what evidence do you have that it is the Xian god that did it?

Could there be more than one designer?

Could the designers be malicious, negligent, incompetent or worse?

How do you reconcile "less than optimal designs"?  The artery feeding the human heart, easily clogged, small and our eyes, blind spot, etc, come to mind.

Why did the designer have many different eye designs?

There are more but if you want to have ID taken seriously not only are you going to show what is designed and what is ad-hoc but you are going to have to answer all of those questions and more.

So how do you even know your god even exists and is not a projection of your own fears cobbled from bronze age superstitions?

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,19:51   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 18 2009,19:15)
Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 17 2009,18:15)
       
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,20:26)
The mechanism for said change is the unsettled point.

Good. Time to describe your mechanism.

By the way, "saltation" isn't a mechanism. It is a proposed description of the rate of change (very rapid, even single step) in evolution. It calls for explanation in the form of a mechanism.

Describe your proposed mechanism for saltation. Provide us with an illustration of it operating in a specific instance. The example of chimps and bonobos emerging from a common ancestor will do as an example, although you may prefer another. Your proposed mechanism should offer an explanation for the timing of the saltational events, including divergence of a single population into separate species, the distribution of features among the daughter species, their progressive differentiation, the fact of their adaptation to changing environmental circumstances, and so forth.

Ready, set, GO!

Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles    
Quote
Our study provides, to our knowledge, the first phylogenetic-
based comparative support for saltational changes in the evolution of aggregation pheromones. It therefore raises the question of how these changes come about.


As for chimps/bonobos, that'll have to wait until I have more time.

How do you reconcile gradual evolution with designed creation?

Where does your designers stop designing and allow for changes, what is "front loaded" and where does gradual evolution begin and end?

It seems that you invoke the idea that your designer can do anything without explaining itself which as we know means it really explains nothing at all.

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,20:41   

Quote
Could the designers be malicious, negligent, incompetent or worse?


All of the above.

I refuse to worship anything that caused the frakkin pain.

--------------
"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,21:08   

Daniel

Hope you hurry back; you missed your chance to answer this (again).

If you are "only concerned about mechanisms", why have you consistently failed to give us the mechanisms behind your "god theory"? How many steps does it take, using think-poof, to get from Lucy to you?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 18 2009,21:24   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 19 2009,04:41)
Quote
Could the designers be malicious, negligent, incompetent or worse?


All of the above.

I refuse to worship anything that caused the frakkin pain.

Well you would wouldn't you?

That's why the old nomadic cattle rustlers who wrote out all the other gods in their hagiography of the one true cattle rustler and origin of the world made sure you were to blame for that pain!

By the way those old scoundrels could have as many wifes as they liked just so you lot couldn't get a leg up and biff them one unless you liked banishment and eating sand.

Monotheism is great if you have a dick.....especially the worshipping part.

--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,07:26   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 18 2009,20:41)
Quote
Could the designers be malicious, negligent, incompetent or worse?


All of the above.

I refuse to worship anything that caused the frakkin pain.

What I can not understand is why their god needs to be worshiped.  So this god got lonely and needed to create petty beings so beneath it to worship it for why again?  Hell I got lonely so I just went to a bar!

My favorite of course is the negligent parent, this god of theirs, putting temptation in front of two people who were children and truly ignorant (hey they had no knowledge right so how in the hell can they know what is right and wrong?) and now because of the "fall" everything is going to hell.

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,11:24   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 18 2009,17:15)
   
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,20:26)

Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles

The Symonds and Elgar paper on bark beetle pheromone evolution describes an observed pattern (that is, a phylogenetic anticorrelation in pheromone blends), and does NOT specifically detail a mechanism for the evolution of same.

From the paper:
   
Quote
Our results, for Dendroctonus at least, suggest that sibling species may be more different from each other than would be expected even by chance. The trend is weak and, we caution, the standard errors are large, but within Dendroctonus the highest levels of phenotypic difference are between sibling species (phylogenetic distance of one).
In other words, there may be additional selective pressures at work during speciation events that force one pheromone blend to become substantially different from the other.


The authors do speculate about a mechanism to account for this observation. They suggest that the same mechanisms operating during allopatric speciation (which favors reinforcement of differences between similar species--see Coyne & Orr 1997) may be functioning here.

To the extent that this paper illustrates a mechanism for saltational evolution, it does so purely in the context of well-known selective mechanisms.

I haven't yet looked at the other papers you've offered as examples. Maybe you could double-check to make sure that you're not also misinterpreting them?

--------------
-Tom Ames

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,16:04   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 18 2009,19:31)
you moron you are just being dishonest.

why in the bloody hell would you expect gradual evolution of the constituents of pheromones?  You wouldn't.  You would have no expectation, if you were honest (you are not).

if you fucking READ that paper you will find that there is still a phylogenetic signal in pheromone constituents, but that minor changes to those physiological pathways produce large effects in the ultimate pheromone chemistry.  considering changes in pheromone ratios as equal weight to changes in chemistry doesn't seem very reasonable does it?

if you are honest (You Are Not) you will ask yourself what the null hypothesis would be.  Denial, in other words (I know your sorry preaching ass doesn't have a clue what a null hypothesis is) "What is the expected distribution of pheromones within a clade of insects?".  Answer:  Who Fucking Knows.

You win another Gross Misuse of The Concept of Gradualism award, to go with all the others.  Dumb bastard.

so it's been a while since I read this paper, but I was once excited by it also, just not for the fallacious reasons that Denial brought it up.  Pheromones are understudied in most insects and they must be crucial in speciation.

Having slept some since reading it, I note that they don't actually look at changes in blends, just presence or absence of some pheromone compounds.  so my comment above was off the mark.

BUT it's not clear from the paper whether or not the tree is ultrametric.  counting nodes for phylogenetic distance is a really shitty metric, particularly if there is not full taxon sampling (there doesn't seem to be).  if branch lengths are different, then there are different null expectations for the distribution of potential alternative states.

it's not clear to me why they chose the method they did, when there are better comparative methods out there.  lo, there is a veritable cottage industry of comparative methods, but they don't cite any of it

Quote
Bjorklund, M.  1997.  Are 'comparative methods' always necessary?.  Oikos 80:  707-612


haven't read that one, but I think the answer is brutally obvious to anyone who has been nailed by Felsenstein.

anyone out there clear this up for me?

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,16:05   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 19 2009,11:24)
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 18 2009,17:15)
   
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,20:26)

Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles

The Symonds and Elgar paper on bark beetle pheromone evolution describes an observed pattern (that is, a phylogenetic anticorrelation in pheromone blends), and does NOT specifically detail a mechanism for the evolution of same.

From the paper:
   
Quote
Our results, for Dendroctonus at least, suggest that sibling species may be more different from each other than would be expected even by chance. The trend is weak and, we caution, the standard errors are large, but within Dendroctonus the highest levels of phenotypic difference are between sibling species (phylogenetic distance of one).
In other words, there may be additional selective pressures at work during speciation events that force one pheromone blend to become substantially different from the other.


The authors do speculate about a mechanism to account for this observation. They suggest that the same mechanisms operating during allopatric speciation (which favors reinforcement of differences between similar species--see Coyne & Orr 1997) may be functioning here.

To the extent that this paper illustrates a mechanism for saltational evolution, it does so purely in the context of well-known selective mechanisms.

I haven't yet looked at the other papers you've offered as examples. Maybe you could double-check to make sure that you're not also misinterpreting them?

Tom they even go on about pheromones being products of secondary metabolites that could shift with host plant preference.  This doesn't say what Denial thinks it does.

He sees "saltation" and gets his panties in a wad.  Read the damn papers, son.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,16:36   

Quote
 Phylogenetic analyses of the correlated evolution of continuous characters:  A simulation study.  EP Martins and T Garland Jr 1991.  Evolution 45(3) 534-557
 
Quote
A second conclusion from our simulations is that the minimum evolution method that uses only the changes between most recent nodes and tips... never performs better and often performs considerably worse than does [a model] which uses changes between inferred nodes as well as changes between nodes and tips.  We conclude that neither [non-phylogenetic methods] nor [the minimum evolution method] should be seriously considered for analyzing comparative data




 
Quote
The mode of evolution of aggregation pheromones in Drosophila species
Symonds MRE, Wertheim B.  2005. JOURNAL OF EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY 18(5): 1253-1263    
 
Quote
Abstract: Aggregation pheromones are used by fruit flies of the genus Drosophila to assemble on breeding substrates, where they feed, mate and oviposit communally. These pheromones consist of species-specific blends of chemicals. Here, using a phylogenetic framework, we examine how differences among species in these pheromone blends have evolved. Theoretical predictions, genetic evidence, and previous empirical analysis of bark beetle species, suggest that aggregation pheromones do not evolve gradually, but via major, saltational shifts in chemical composition. Using pheromone data for 28 species of Drosophila we show that, unlike with bark beetles, the distribution of chemical components among species is highly congruent with their phylogeny, with closely related species being more similar in their pheromone blends than are distantly related species. This pattern is also strong within the melanogaster species group, but less so within the virilis species group. Our analysis strongly suggests that the aggregation pheromones of Drosophila exhibit a gradual, not saltational, mode of evolution. We propose that these findings reflect the function of the pheromones in the ecology of Drosophila, which does not hinge on species specificity of aggregation pheromones as signals.


same authors.  haven't read it.  even if there is questionable method selection, it doesn't say what you want it to say.

STFU Denial

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:06   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Feb. 17 2009,18:18)
 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,19:16)
As for your question, we know the precursor, we know the mechanism in a general sense, let's see if they ever figure out how the two genomes combined to make the new morphological feature.  I'm betting that it will be non-randomly.

That's not my question.

Here it is again.

If you are "only concerned about mechanisms", why have you consistently failed to give us the mechanisms behind your "god theory"? How many steps does it take, using think-poof, to get from Lucy to you? Since you admit that I've "met one of your challenges", how about meeting this one for me?

From my Argument from Impossibility:  
Quote
I propose that the ultimate origins of life on this planet will forever be impossible to fully explain. I propose that this impossibility is a consequence of the infinite intelligence of the creator of life: if a God of infinite intelligence created something, we will never be able to explain its origins by natural means. We may be able to hazard a guess, or propose a natural pathway, but when looked at closely, such explanations will always be found to be unsatisfactorily incomplete. The reason for this is simple: you cannot explain something that cannot happen. It's impossible to explain the impossible. What's more, even if we concede Intelligent Design, we will still be unable to fully explain most of these things. We will not be able to decipher all of the engineering, physics, mathematics or chemistry that went into the actual planning of such systems. It will be as far above our level of intelligence as the ends of the universe are above our heads. This "Argument from Impossibility" is a necessary consequence of the chasm between an infinite mind and our limited human understandings. In short - God's ways are unfathomable.


I'm just being consistent.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:13   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 19 2009,22:05)
[SNIP]

Tom they even go on about pheromones being products of secondary metabolites that could shift with host plant preference.  This doesn't say what Denial thinks it does.

He sees "saltation" and gets his panties in a wad.  Read the damn papers, son.

Bolding mine.

Whuuuu? Secondary metabolites? I'm gonna read me some paper dammit! That just piqued my interest.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:14   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 18 2009,02:17)
You can learn all you want from Schindewolf, or anyone you like, up to and including Paley, Aristotle,  and the girls from Bananarama (all of whom have very different ideas about evolutionary biology). You'll find no complaint from me (in fact you'll find encouragement). I'll also encourage you to read MORE than these people's works. In fact I think I might have done so. One of the problems you have Denial is a common one: you project your own biases onto others. There is no orthodoxy for me, the fact that you misunderstand that is....well hilarious, but also telling.

While the books I've read have mostly been written by skeptics of Darwinism (with a few exceptions), when it comes to papers, I almost exclusively read papers by "orthodox" evolutionists.

Have you read Berg, Schindewolf, Goldschmidt, Grasse, Bateson or any of the others who have not embraced Darwinist principles?

Or am I the only one who has to read the works of "others"?

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:19   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 20 2009,00:14)
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 18 2009,02:17)
You can learn all you want from Schindewolf, or anyone you like, up to and including Paley, Aristotle,  and the girls from Bananarama (all of whom have very different ideas about evolutionary biology). You'll find no complaint from me (in fact you'll find encouragement). I'll also encourage you to read MORE than these people's works. In fact I think I might have done so. One of the problems you have Denial is a common one: you project your own biases onto others. There is no orthodoxy for me, the fact that you misunderstand that is....well hilarious, but also telling.

While the books I've read have mostly been written by skeptics of Darwinism (with a few exceptions), when it comes to papers, I almost exclusively read papers by "orthodox" evolutionists.

Have you read Berg, Schindewolf, Goldschmidt, Grasse, Bateson or any of the others who have not embraced Darwinist principles?

Or am I the only one who has to read the works of "others"?

1) There is no such thing as orthodox science

2) Reagarding you and reading anything, I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

3) You might be surprised at what I read/have read, but then since (as noted before) all you care about is dick waving and gainsaying your "enemies", I decline to play your infantile games with lists. Stop posturing and projecting.

Louis

Edits for clarity. Hey it's midnight here. I need sleepy time.

--------------
Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:20   

Quote (Louis @ Feb. 19 2009,18:13)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 19 2009,22:05)
[SNIP]

Tom they even go on about pheromones being products of secondary metabolites that could shift with host plant preference.  This doesn't say what Denial thinks it does.

He sees "saltation" and gets his panties in a wad.  Read the damn papers, son.

Bolding mine.

Whuuuu? Secondary metabolites? I'm gonna read me some paper dammit! That just piqued my interest.

Louis

it's just an offhand comment.  i think it cites some more pertinent work.  you can chemo-nerd all over it.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:25   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 20 2009,00:20)
Quote (Louis @ Feb. 19 2009,18:13)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 19 2009,22:05)
[SNIP]

Tom they even go on about pheromones being products of secondary metabolites that could shift with host plant preference.  This doesn't say what Denial thinks it does.

He sees "saltation" and gets his panties in a wad.  Read the damn papers, son.

Bolding mine.

Whuuuu? Secondary metabolites? I'm gonna read me some paper dammit! That just piqued my interest.

Louis

it's just an offhand comment.  i think it cites some more pertinent work.  you can chemo-nerd all over it.

But I wanted metabolites!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

I'm going to sulk in bed. So there!

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:28   

Quote (mitschlag @ Feb. 18 2009,04:00)
       
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,19:26)
Read Schindewolf's Basic Questions in Paleontology for an eye opening experience.

It is a losing gambit for Daniel to play the Schindewolf card.

I have read Grundfragen, and I can testify that it was an eye-closing experience.

Schindewolf musters artificial selection of data and tortuous argumentation to support preconceived notions of front-loading (orthogenesis) in evolution.

Remember Daniel's thread arguing that the evolution of the horse was a problem for modern evolutionary theory, and how Daniel bailed out of the discussion when Schindewolf's errors and omissions were pointed out to him, as in George  Gaylord Simpson's  The Major Features of Evolution?

I don't remember it like you do.  Schindewolf's data was never impeached - only his interpretation - which is understandable given the makeup of this group.

I repeatedly reminded all of you that horse evolution was one of Schindewolf's examples of gradualism, in fact he called it one of the most well documented cases of gradual evolution in paleontology, (You must've missed that part when you "read" the book), yet you all kept arguing that because horse evolution was gradual - Schindewolf was wrong.

My reason for discussing horse evolution in the first place was because of the toes - that's it.  But you all read the thread title and jumped to unfounded conclusions, and then congratulated yourselves for "dismantling" them.

Classic strawman.

--------------
"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Daniel Smith



Posts: 970
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:33   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 19 2009,14:05)
 
Quote (Tom Ames @ Feb. 19 2009,11:24)
 
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 18 2009,17:15)
       
Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 17 2009,20:26)

Here's one proposed mechanism.

Here's the one we've been discussing.

Another possibility.

Another.

Saltational evolution in Bark Beetles

The Symonds and Elgar paper on bark beetle pheromone evolution describes an observed pattern (that is, a phylogenetic anticorrelation in pheromone blends), and does NOT specifically detail a mechanism for the evolution of same.

From the paper:
       
Quote
Our results, for Dendroctonus at least, suggest that sibling species may be more different from each other than would be expected even by chance. The trend is weak and, we caution, the standard errors are large, but within Dendroctonus the highest levels of phenotypic difference are between sibling species (phylogenetic distance of one).
In other words, there may be additional selective pressures at work during speciation events that force one pheromone blend to become substantially different from the other.


The authors do speculate about a mechanism to account for this observation. They suggest that the same mechanisms operating during allopatric speciation (which favors reinforcement of differences between similar species--see Coyne & Orr 1997) may be functioning here.

To the extent that this paper illustrates a mechanism for saltational evolution, it does so purely in the context of well-known selective mechanisms.

I haven't yet looked at the other papers you've offered as examples. Maybe you could double-check to make sure that you're not also misinterpreting them?

Tom they even go on about pheromones being products of secondary metabolites that could shift with host plant preference.  This doesn't say what Denial thinks it does.

He sees "saltation" and gets his panties in a wad.  Read the damn papers, son.

You're right.

I posted the last few papers in that list in a rush.  I was in the process of making up a list of relevant papers and I stumbled upon those and browsed through them.  Then my daughter needed to use the computer so I just posted it.

I should have just deleted it instead.  I stand by Davison's semi-meiosis and the Soltis and Soltis paper.  The rest are not vetted.

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"If we all worked on the assumption that what is accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance."  Orville Wright

"The presence or absence of a creative super-intelligence is unequivocally a scientific question."  Richard Dawkins

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,18:38   

bwaha

you're a fraud denial.  there is interesting science in that paper but you wanna blather about crap

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,19:04   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 19 2009,18:06)
I'm just being consistent.

Maybe you can buy a dictionary someday as well. Being a hypocrite is not "being consistent".

Demanding detailed mechanisms, precursors and pathways from others. while allowing yourself to indulge in a mechanism-free, precursor-free and pathway-free exercise in goalpost tectonics is hypocrisy.

But you are, for certain, consistently hypocritical.

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,19:12   

Quote
goalpost tectonics


I LIKE that!

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"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,19:15   

Quote (Daniel Smith @ Feb. 19 2009,19:33)
You're right.

I posted the last few papers in that list in a rush.  I was in the process of making up a list of relevant papers and I stumbled upon those and browsed through them.  Then my daughter needed to use the computer so I just posted it.

I should have just deleted it instead.  I stand by Davison's semi-meiosis and the Soltis and Soltis paper.  The rest are not vetted.

Your papers are ALL non-responsive to my (and Albatrossity's) question.

You said "mechanism is the unsettled point." You reject current mechanisms and claim an alternative. What I want to see is YOUR understanding of that alternative.

Don't point us to papers that present differing mechanisms that have nothing to do with each other nor anything to do with the example at hand (chimps and bonobos from a common ancestor). That's throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks. Write up YOUR understanding of the mechanism you are advancing as superior to current theory.

Your proposed mechanism should offer an explanation for the timing of saltational events, including divergence of a single population into separate species, the distribution of features among the daughter species, their progressive differentiation, the fact of their adaptation to changing environmental circumstances, and so forth.

Just a sketch.

So far as I am concerned, if you can't articulate an argument, you don't understand it.

With respect to human evolution, you have argued that properties like speech, language, redundancy, culture, powerful learning abilities and design are evidence that human beings arose through special creation. Why is that? After all, for months you have argued that complex biological systems cannot arise by means of selection and instead must have arisen through processes like the saltational triggering of supernaturally frontloaded design - processes that compel the conclusion of common descent.

Why does the emergence of human speech, culture, learning ability, etc. require an even greater leap (relative to the ancestor we share with chimps and bonobos), than, say, your favorite example of a complex system, the Krebs cycle? A leap that requires rejection of even those processes you have so tediously argued to date - e.g., supernatural frontloading, saltation, etc. - and demands a separate, superdupernatural special creation?

(Even more edits for clarity)

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,19:24   

Quote

You're right.


does this mean he can't be AfDave?

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 19 2009,20:38   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ Feb. 19 2009,20:24)
Quote

You're right.


does this mean he can't be AfDave?

Are they not both lying creo shits?

Is there some way to distinguish?

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2009,09:53   

Quote (khan @ Feb. 19 2009,20:38)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,Feb. 19 2009,20:24)
Quote

You're right.


does this mean he can't be AfDave?

Are they not both lying creo shits?

Is there some way to distinguish?

Maybe we could build/design a filter.....

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
American Saddlebred



Posts: 111
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 20 2009,10:28   

Daniel maintains his composure, AFDave never even tried to.

I dun think they are the same person.

   
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