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RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:02   

So I'm wrong, Guts?

I thought you weren't attempting to avoid specificity, but you really are?

Calling someone a moron for not addressing arguments, but then not saying what the arguments are - well, that's just calling someone a moron. Is that the reason you're claiming this thread is all about insults, because that's all you're prepared to contribute?

Come on, just one thing that's not a personal insult, that people of good intent can debate.

R

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:03   

Wel I offered my writings and even showed where you can find them, but through it all, and you look back through all these pages, all you find is deception on the part of the denizens of AE, not a single one refutes anything I have written on TT. Tell me how does that not show that you are all stupid? I mean come on.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:04   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:56)
I'm hotter than that actually.

But your position, as articulated here, has no more substance.

I don't follow TT, Guts, have never read your posts nor your blogs, and have no familiarity with your stance in this debate. So I won't comment on any of that.

I can say, as a meta comment based upon the sample of the last few pages: you come across as an asshole.

Why not assert something with substance? Then we're off to the races.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1556
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:06   

Quote (Frostman @ July 06 2008,02:53)
Quote (Alan Fox @ July 06 2008,06:24)
Ah I think Nelson/Guts is attempting the debating tactic of provoking a banning, sometimes referred to as "death by Cop", I believe.

This is all very illuminating, Sir.

(Edited for spelling)

If I may be so immodest, I would guess that Guts/Nelson's steady stream of ridiculous outbursts are a reaction to his dishonest character being buck-naked exposed by yours truly in the email correspondence I just posted (Nelson Alonso).  It's a devastating blow to him personally.  He is embarrassed, and he gropes frantically for some way, any way, to respond.  If it was not already common knowledge that his real name is Nelson Alonso, that would add to the impact.  He is unable to address his own unethical behavior shown in that correspondence, so he seeks some way to distract himself and others.

Or perhaps it is my wishful thinking that I could provoke such a funny response.  In any case, carry on, young fool!  You are the wind beneath my wings.

Thanks, the problem is there's a demonstration of Camargais bullfighting (the bull survives, some human participants may not!) in the local town just starting, and i did rather want to see it.

@Guts,

When you decide to enlighten us with an example of your best work, let me know.

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:08   

So I'm the one that comes across as an asshole, how stupid is that. Pages and pages of false accusations , no one even knows my position, no one can refute any of my technical blogs, and yet I'm still the one that comes across as an asshole. Waves and waves of trolls come to my blog to harrass us not with arguments but with retarded tactics, and yet I'm the one who comes across as an asshole.

I call shenanigans.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:09   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,09:08)
So I'm the one that comes across as an asshole, how stupid is that. Pages and pages of false accusations , no one even knows my position, no one can refute any of my technical blogs, and yet I'm still the one that comes across as an asshole. Waves and waves of trolls come to my blog to harrass us not with arguments but with retarded tactics, and yet I'm the one who comes across as an asshole.

Yep.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:12   

Look in the mirror to see the asshole, look in the mirror.

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:13   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,09:12)
Look in the mirror to see the asshole, look in the mirror.

Maybe so.

But just sayin', Guts.

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:14   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,07:45)
Based on the fact that he can't even take a single one of my technical blog posts and rip it apart.

Link to one then.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:18   

Quote
So I'm the one that comes across as an asshole, how stupid is that.

You've been the best evidence for that.
Quote
Pages and pages of false accusations

Name one.
Quote
no one even knows my position

Or nobody cares.
Quote
no one can refute any of my technical blogs

"technical blogs"? is that something you made up yourself? Aww, pretending to be a scientist now are you, how sweet! Link to an example please.
Quote
and yet I'm still the one that comes across as an asshole

ting is as ting is.
Quote
Waves and waves of trolls come to my blog to harrass us not with arguments but with retarded tactics

And you tell the difference between them and your target audience how exactly?
Quote
and yet I'm the one who comes across as an asshole.

ting is as ting is.
Quote
I call shenanigans.

Perhaps that has some meaning where you can edit history but your behaviour and refusal to support any of your points is plain over the last couple of pages.

You are making yourself look foolish far better then anybody else is.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:20   

It's very simple, go to TT , click on my name ( not on the sidebar like Alan Faux did, click on my name on a blog i've written) and then refute it. It's very simple, I'm surprised actually that no one has done so yet, it's actually quite laughable.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:22   

Could somebody PM me if

1) gutless runs out of insults, or

2) gutless provides a link to a peer-reviewed paper it authored, or

3) gutless provides a link to a blog where it authored a substantive argument, or

4) gutless answers oldman's questions, or

5) gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion.

Thanks

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:22   

Quote

Name one


My pleasure.

Frostman wrote this:

Quote

Incidentally, anon9 is me.  I'd have spoken sooner had I been following things.  I made the comment way-back-when and then promptly forgot about it.  I follow neither Telic Thoughts nor this site.  I did not have any reservations about attempting to raise consciousness at what has proven to be an unethical blog.  Nor did I try to disguise myself or my intentions, since I mentioned the name Frostman and gave links to my posts here.



This is quite false. In fact anon9/frostman posted this on TT:

Quote

Many have been banned for this kind of confrontational style. One banned participant named Frostman documented his experience at Telic Thoughts


Again this is just a sample of the level of deception here.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:23   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:22)
Quote

Name one


My pleasure.

Frostman wrote this:

Quote

Incidentally, anon9 is me.  I'd have spoken sooner had I been following things.  I made the comment way-back-when and then promptly forgot about it.  I follow neither Telic Thoughts nor this site.  I did not have any reservations about attempting to raise consciousness at what has proven to be an unethical blog.  Nor did I try to disguise myself or my intentions, since I mentioned the name Frostman and gave links to my posts here.



This is quite false. In fact anon9/frostman posted this on TT:

Quote

Many have been banned for this kind of confrontational style. One banned participant named Frostman documented his experience at Telic Thoughts


Again this is just a sample of the level of deception here.

Congratulations. That's how you do it. Say something then support it with evidence.

Now, there are several other questions, not least your changing position on the EF pending.

Get going.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:23   

Quote

gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion


lol, you're in the wrong place. This is a turd throwing fest, if you want meaningful discussion, go elsewhere. AE isn't called "the swamp" by pretty much everyone for nothing.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:26   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,07:24)
     
Quote

But when I was on Telic Thoughts and I asked you for your position, you said "I've stated it many times already, it's all here" and refused to be specific.

People who press you on the point get banned.

More lies. In fact no one has asked me for my position, much less have been banned for it. When will the lies stop?

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.

For the record, I have asked for your position on the 3….2….1….”Rabbit Thread. I crosslinked back here—with a warning.

Quote
Zachriel: By the way, I just noticed the discussion on AtBC's Telic Thoughts thread (Warning PG13: juvenile taunts, sexual innuendo, crude language, some partial nudity, and persistent bad taste).

Crude language: "your" damn this board sucks.

Juvenile taunts: My position is that you're a moron.

Sexual innuendo: I'm hotter than that actually.

Some partial nudity: I found it:

Persistent bad taste: No thats me conceding that you're a retard.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:27   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:23)
Quote

gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion


lol, you're in the wrong place. This is a turd throwing fest, if you want meaningful discussion, go elsewhere. AE isn't called "the swamp" by pretty much everyone for nothing.

Yet here you are, and you appear to be throwing the most turds.

I guess you must like throwing turds instead of having a worthwhile discussion.

Your "technical blogs" appear to support that position.

If you want meaningful discussion, please pick a topic. There will be some who will oblige, no doubt, on any topic you choose to pick.

Do it, or are you a coward? All mouth? Any trouser there?

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Guts



Posts: 226
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:29   

Zachriel writes:
Quote

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.


Zach, your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence, otherwise you wouldn't write such tripe. In fact, if you would look at the memory hole, you'll see your thread derailing post in all it's glory. How sad :(

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:33   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:29)
your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence,

You've yet to prove otherwise yourself, failing to raise yourself above the level of a angry 10 year old throwing insults about.

Pick a topic.

Have a debate.

Forget for a moment that you are an internet sensation, consider the fact that many people have no idea who you are and their first impression of you is from this thread. I imagine the number of actual real life scientists is considerably higher here then you are used to and if you play your cards right you might even learn something.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:36   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:03)
Wel I offered my writings and even showed where you can find them, but through it all, and you look back through all these pages, all you find is deception on the part of the denizens of AE, not a single one refutes anything I have written on TT. Tell me how does that not show that you are all stupid? I mean come on.

Quote
all you find is deception on the part of the denizens of AE, not a single one refutes anything I have written on TT.

And you think that people will believe that solely on the basis of your say-so do you?

Sure, you call it deception, I call it shining a light onto your tactics.

I can see why you might like it to stop and how it's been needling you for a while now until it's got to this point.

Are you drunk Guts? Will you regret this in the morning?

No edit button for you!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,08:42   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:23)
Quote

gutless otherwise provides evidence that it can carry on a worthwhile discussion


lol, you're in the wrong place. This is a turd throwing fest, if you want meaningful discussion, go elsewhere. AE isn't called "the swamp" by pretty much everyone for nothing.

Well, then you win. You seem to be the owner/producer of the largest pile of turds here. And you haven't even linked to your "many technical blogs" yet!

Next.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:26   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,08:29)
Zachriel writes:
   
Quote

But have they been "barred"? I guess the Memory Hole is inoperative or people could see the dastardly post that led to my being banned barred from the thread.

Zach, your problem is that you can't handle logic and evidence, otherwise you wouldn't write such tripe. In fact, if you would look at the memory hole, you'll see your thread derailing post in all it's glory. How sad :(

 
Quote
Zachriel: I looked for a link on the main page called "Memory Hole" and it was empty.

I appreciate that. Now, everyone can determine for themselves that there was nothing in my comment that deserved banning barring, by any reasonable reading.

Guts: But this is what you do Zach everytime you are proven wrong, you back peddle.

This statement just tickles me. Heaven forbid someone admit error or try to clarify a misstatement.

I'm still smarting from when Hermagoras smacked me down for mixing my Greek and Latin roots.



--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:30   

Quote
Raevmo Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:33 pm Guts:

Why do anti-ID activists here, like Raevmo, feel the need to act like spoiled retarded children? It blows my mind.

Excuse me? I just mentioned that Shubin's claim to fame was his discovery of Tiktaalik. I see you have deleted that post. Why is that?


Comment by Raevmo — July 5, 2008 @ 7:33 pm
Guts Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:36 pm I just went through this with Zachriel. I already provided a link to that, the topic is not Shubin's discovery, the topic is well beyond Shubin's discovery.


Comment by Guts — July 5, 2008 @ 7:36 pm
steve Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:44 pm Speaking of Zachriel, why was he covertly banned? That kind of behavior flies at Uncommon Descent, but I thought people here had some ethics.


Comment by steve — July 5, 2008 @ 7:44 pm
Guts Says:
July 5th, 2008 at 7:47 pm he wasn't banned. he was barred from this thread.


Comment by Guts — July 5, 2008 @ 7:47 pm


--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,09:38   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,02:23)
I'll post another example of deception, this time from steve:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y110698

He claims that we moderated his comment, and yet here it is on the live site:

http://telicthoughts.com/aiguys-computer/#comment-193776

When one goes to that link here on AtBC, one finds Steve saying that his comment was in a moderation queue, meaning it did not simply appear on the site as and when submitted. It does not claim that the comment was never published, so showing the comment was published is precisely irrelevant to Steve's comment.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:01   

Quote
Guts: I didnt ban you at all, I simply sent an off topic comment to the memory hole. And prevented you from doing it again. This is regularly done here and needs no explanation.


All my scribbling about handwaving and netiquette and handwaving and respect and chronicling, and more handwaving and how to make an argument and why. Dozens of comments, hours of work (well minutes anyway). All summarized by a master in a handful of poetic words.

Quote
olegt: "Shut up," he explained.




--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
RupertG



Posts: 80
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:06   

I have been back through TT's list of Guts' postings. Quiet Sunday afternoon here.

The fact that he refuses to point to any of his 'technical blogs' for discussion about how they support ID is that none of them do. There's stuff snipped from elsewhere and a "How about that then!", and plenty of "If this supports x, it's interesting". Rarely is any connection explicitly made, rarely is there anything that can be argued about without asking for more information.

When he does dare to actually make a statement, for example that snake venom evolution is clearly "not standard", and then backs it up with "Huh? Do you have any questions? feel free to ask.", he gets Nick Matzke asking "How is venom evolution far from 'standard'?". Guts' answer: "Read the links."

The thread's still there for anyone who wants to see how it develops, although -- spoiler -- it won't take a path unfamiliar to anyone who's read this far on this one.

Elsewhere, hrun comes a cropper when he asks why convergent evolution is better evidence for front-loading than it is for standard evolutionary biology. Guts having refused to answer the question three times except by saying "It's all answered elsewhere", (hrun gallantly tries to ascertain where and how, thus using up the rest of his lives), he finally deals with the question thusly:"I explained it , twice, in the misconceptions thread, in my first post and linked to an essay about it. You ignored all three attempts. All you're doing is repeating yourself. It doesn't seem like you're actually asking questions, it seems like you're trolling."

To be fair, guts isn't the only one who likes to argue through unexplained co-option where inference is unclear and implications arguable. His use of multiple layers of indirection and wooly definitions, treating those who attempt to clarify his position as idiots and trolls, is also familiar. Although I do think he has a useful innovation in his 'three strikes and you're out' policy; it's rather like the early moves in Minesweeper, but on a board entirely populated by single-mine squares.

Entire academic careers have built on such things (I'm looking at you, po-mo). They never amount to much. They're cancerous growths whose principle purpose is to consume resources, resist attack and grow without care for good or harm done to the rest of the organism. While science has a rather iffy immune system in the short term and on the small scale, it operates very effectively over periods of generations and in the larger context.

Unless it's made illegal.

R

--------------
Uncle Joe and Aunty Mabel
Fainted at the breakfast table
Children, let this be a warning
Never do it in the morning -- Ralph Vaughan Williams

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:25   



You'll need those Guts, you've been served.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Frostman



Posts: 29
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:25   

Nelson Alonso aka Guts:
Quote
Again this is just a sample of the level of deception here.

I see nothing unethical about James Randi sending in posers to expose huckster faith healers like Peter Popoff and his ilk.  Popoff might claim, "But they deceived me, it is they who are unethical!"  I'll let you decide that one: do you support the public's right to be informed of fraud, or do you support Popoff's right to not be deceived?  Considering that he takes millions from the poor, the elderly, and the sick, the answer should be clear.

Likewise I support individuals misrepresenting themselves to a self-proclaimed psychic in order to expose the psychic as a fraud.  The public's right to be informed trumps the con artist's right to not be conned.

Nelson Alonso, I have plainly documented your unethical behavior at Telic Thoughts on this forum, notably here and in lengthy detail here: Nelson Alonso.  Your conduct shown therein is indefensible, and indeed you have not defended it.  My last post to Telic Thoughts was not mere random turd-throwing, as you are want to do here.  It had a purpose: to expose you.  In it I gave links to my posts here.  The public has a right to be informed of the unethical conduct flourishing at Telic Thoughts.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,10:51   

Quote (Guts @ July 06 2008,05:10)
I'll debate any of you any time any day, I've been doing it for years. Notice how steve stays clear away from any of my technical blogs. It's because he's scientifically illiterate.

What I look for in a moderator is an ability to deal with people socially using the written word.

Steve has that.

And, having interacted with for years and having met Steve in person, I can testify that the claim of "scientific illiteracy" is a bogus canard, too.

"Doing it for years"... I had a look back at the archives, and found this terminal post in an exchange of ours from 2000.

As for scientific acumen, one should not confuse scientific knowledge with an inability to take a point and copious amounts of spare time to endlessly reply repeating the initial confusion.

 
Quote

Argumentum ad Assertion Repetitio ad Nauseam
   (np) 1. Argument premised on the basis that any assertion repeated often enough is, perforce, true. This rhetorical mode is a frequent companion of Argumentum ad CAPSLOCK, or denigrations of correspondents. There exists great variability in the frequency and timing of the repetitions.


Discussions should have beginnings, middles, and ends. Someone who declares victory simply because they do not tire of repeating themselves isn't proving anything except the possibility of a perseverative disorder.

 
Quote

Continuous perseveration (inappropriate prolonged continuation and repetition of a current behaviour)


Nelson might ask why I am not a participant at his "technical blogs". I'll take the complementary position to that Nelson laid out back in 2000 about me:

 
Quote

When you have responded to the same criticism over and over again, and when they refuse to respond to other IDers , but just respond to Dembski, then you kinda get the feeling that there is something more going on. Let Wesley and Rich publish their material in the forums Dembski provided, then they will be taken seriously. Otherwise, their motivation is obvious.


Since then, I have been published in the peer-reviewed journal Biology and Philosophy and have two book chapters to my credit on IDC. A further paper should be out in another journal within the year. Since Nelson claimed I was ignorable until published, I'll treat him to a helping of the same standard.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 06 2008,12:00   

Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ July 06 2008,06:04)
I don't follow TT, Guts, have never read your posts nor your blogs, and have no familiarity with your stance in this debate. So I won't comment on any of that.

I can say, as a meta comment based upon the sample of the last few pages: you come across as an asshole.

As someone who has followed TT for a couple of years, I can say that RB's impression of Guts is quite accurate.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
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