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ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,10:29   

Quote (thordaddy @ May 02 2006,15:10)
ericmurphy asks,

Quote
Do you suppose that erroneous belief can be ascribed to liberal bias in the media?


Yes... the "liberal" media has shown the utmost reluctance to describe who it is exactly that we are at war with, namely, Muslim fanatics.

So the "liberal" media is responsible for getting the American public to back a war of aggression against a country that posed no threat to the U.S. or its allies, based on false allegations of involvement with the September 11 attacks, and false allegations of WMDs, including nuclear weapons?

Well, the "media" sure is. But the "liberal" media? What are you, smoking crack?

Did we start a war with Iraq because Iraq was a hotbed of "Muslim fanatics"? Funny, I haven't seen any hesitation on the part of the "liberal" media to reinforce the notion that all Muslims are "fanatics."

Thordaddy, do you have a different definition of "liberal" from the one the rest of us have?

As usual, your posts are reinforcing my impression of your vacuity.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,10:47   

Quote
OK, even though it wasn't a deliberate attempt to quote-mine, I apologise for snipping out some of the author's explanations. Whatever the intentions, I distorted the author's meaning. I'm sorry. Now, will you address my earlier points?


In deed I will, again. Here goes:

Quote
1)  Race plays a role in media crime coverage

Sadly, yes.
Quote
2)  The media create a racial panic which they then exploit financially

Seems extremely likely.
Quote
3)  Their drive to maximise profit only partly explains the discrepancy in news coverage, since the media create some of the sensationalism in the first place

Er... No? I think? I'm not sure what you mean here... I believe that both exploitation of sensationlism in racial issues and creation of it by the media is done for high audience rates and subsequent profit. As is with every other kind of "panic" the media often exploit -even blow out of proportion. That does not mean the issues behind them are not real; it means the media try to squeeze even the last dime out of them.

Quote
So even if you agree with their unevidenced speculations

neither of us know whether it's "unevidenced", since we don't have access to their data. Like I said, I also wanted to see their reasoning in comparing and examining the data in some cases that do not seem equal- as potential for media coverage is concerned- but there's no way to know.
Quote
you must concede the basic point: the media cover crimes in a racially biased way.

To that, I wholeheartedly agree. Like I did 30 posts ago.
Here is what I said when I read your source:

Quote
But I can assume they did alright. Now, what was demonstrated? that the media's eye gets a glint whenever racism rears its ugly head. Of course, racism sells: Living in Greece, I know that firsthand. How does that demonstrate a liberal bias, That's for you to explain.

[Tell you what: Go back to your Google search, only this time, instead of looking how many of the media stood out by referring to all the less-covered police brutality incidents, check out what kind of media (newspapers, magazines, sites) they were (and I mean actually report the incidents, not use them in retrospect to argue for biased media).
...See? Now that's liberal.]


So... I guess it's back to you?


PS. I edited this to prevent multiple posts and I know I'm repeating myself now, but here goes:
Quote
Well, let's take the Diallo shooting for instance. Would it have killed the media to also report the Haggerty case? If nothing else, the Haggerty story shows that Diallo-like overreactions are possible even if the suspect and cop belong to the same race.

That is unfortunately true. But, like I said, The media that reported this case more vigorously were the most liberal ones: Most of those argued that police brutality and authority abuse has no color, and attention should be drawn to that by the mainstream media, not to the race of the policemen to take advantage of the people's sensitivity in racial issues.
So, once again, how does undermining that incident by the mainstream media constitute a liberal bias?
(Oh and, btw, I couldn't find any conservative media, site or blog that did not refer to this case, not to report it, but in retrospect, to argue for a liberal bias. But it's true I was not that motivated in my search...)

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,10:47   

ericmurphy,

My definition of a "liberal" is you.  Everything you've said has been the mantra of the international "liberal" media for some 3 years now.  "No WMDs," and "No ties to Al Qaida" are the "liberal" talking points that we have heard endlessly for years.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:10   

Quote (thordaddy @ May 02 2006,15:47)
ericmurphy,

My definition of a "liberal" is you.  Everything you've said has been the mantra of the international "liberal" media for some 3 years now.  "No WMDs," and "No ties to Al Qaida" are the "liberal" talking points that we have heard endlessly for years.

Except when we heard, "lots of WMDs, lots of ties to al Qaeda, lots of flowers for our troops when we invade their country and occupy their cities."

Where did we hear that, Thordaddy? We heard it from the media. The "liberal" media.

I, personally, was saying there were no WMDs (or at least no evidence of their existence) and no ties to al Qaeda long before it was showing up in the media, "liberal" or otherwise.

We're hearing the same thing now from the media, Thordaddy, because it's true. You can call that a "mantra" if you want, but presumably you expect the media to report the truth, even if the truth is "liberal," don't you?

You could claim that I personally am liberal, and you'd be right. (You could also admit that I was right when I said those things, and you'd be right to admit it).

But you'd be wrong to say there's a consistent, systemic "liberal" bias to the media, because it ain't there.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:16   

Quote
Well, let's take the Diallo shooting for instance. Would it have killed the media to also report the Haggerty case?
OK. Let's.
From your favorite reliable and non-agenda driven source "FrontPage Magazine":
Quote
According to one account from the March 18, 2000 Chicago Sun-Times:

“Haggerty… was riding with Raymond Smith when partners Williams and Daniels stopped Smith's car…after he double-parked to talk to friends.

Smith suddenly drove off, and the chase paused at 95th and Cottage Grove, where Daniels, Williams and Wilson fired at Smith's Oldsmobile Cutlass.

Daniels told the police board she was standing on the side of the car when she saw a "silvery object" rise slowly as Haggerty talked on a cell phone. Smith already was out of the car and Daniels said she yelled at Haggerty to exit. Daniels said she fired when she saw Haggerty turn toward her. A padlock — the silvery object — was found on the floor.


Diallo: man on foot cornered by four cops in an apartment lobby.
Haggerty: woman - one of two suspects being approached by two cops after a car chase - a car chase the suspects led the cops on even after the cops shot at the car, suggesting they should be taken seriously.

Diallo: object mistaken for gun - wallet.
Haggerty: object mistaken for gun - "silvery" padlock.

Diallo: shot 41 times
Haggerty: shot once, so far as I can tell

All in all, I don't think these cases are all that comparable.

Quote
If nothing else, the Haggerty story shows that Diallo-like overreactions are possible even if the suspect and cop belong to the same race.
I don't believe the degree of overreaction is demonstrated. In fact, in light of the facts, I'm not sure the Chicago officers' actions could be called an overreaction at all.
Quote
I can't see how a halfway responsible media would give the Diallo case saturation coverage, with inflammatory editorials about "racist" cops, when they have evidence that paints a different picture.
Well, I'd have to see the editorials you're complaining about before forming an opinion. Also, we're trying to maintain a distinction, are we not? between editorials and coverage. Editorials are supposed to be opinion. But aside from that, what evidence are you referring to? The fact that police shot Haggerty? What evidence helps us understand why 41 shots need to be fired?  I can't see a halfway responsible medium not posing that question.


P.S. I'm going to ignore Thormoron here. I suggest others do the same.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:27   

Quote

But you'd be wrong to say there's a consistent, systemic "liberal" bias to the media, because it ain't there.
I'd say there's a slight liberal bias to the media. But so what? As you can see from Ghost in the Shell's other posts, he imagines hysterical effects from insignificant causes. Among people like Ghost, gays and the media are humongous wrecking crews, covering America in destruction and ruin. I even saw one Ghost-type, at ProfessorBainbridge's site, blame Hurricane Katrina on the media. The media, you see, had failed to warn people as aggressively as it should have. They're people wearing religious and political blinders, who will refuse to see your point, and it's stupid to argue with them.

   
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:33   

stevestory,

I commend you for at least a smidgeon of honesty.  No one can actually argue that a 70-plus % of journalists self-identifying as "liberals" is evidence of "nothing" in the media.  Afterall, these same people will argue that a 48% representation of woman in college sports or a 2% representation of blacks in CEO positions is a clear-cut indication of sexism and racism, respectively.

Looks like the bean-counters aren't being very consistent.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:41   

Quote (thordaddy @ May 02 2006,16:33)
stevestory,

I commend you for at least a smidgeon of honesty.  No one can actually argue that a 70-plus % of journalists self-identifying as "liberals" is evidence of "nothing" in the media.

At risk of ignoring salutory advice, I'm going to respond to Thordaddy anyway, in hopes that I won't hear this stupid 70% statistic repeated over and over again.

Thordaddy, are you of the opinion that any journalist who says he or she is either liberal or conservative is incapable of objective reporting? I asked this question days ago, and you failed to respond.  Merely stating that 70% of the journalists out there self-report themselves as liberal does not equate to 70% of the reporting being liberally-biased.

There's no connection between the proportion of journalists who claim to be "liberal" and the African-American representation among Fortune 500 companies, unless you assume that a journalist is incapable of objective reporting.

I've been over this with you before, but of course that didn't matter. You act like I never said anything about it. Imagine my surprise.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:42   

Quote
They're people wearing religious and political blinders, who will refuse to see your point, and it's stupid to argue with them.
True enough, if the point is to persuade them, or get them to see the error or their ways. But some of us enjoy the sport of exposing the flaws in the argument. I compare it to the the pleasure of solving sudoku puzzles in the daily newspaper.

(Engaging Thormoron, on the other hand, would be more equivalent to solving puzzles in "Highlights for Children")

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,11:50   

yeah, I should have specified I meant it was stupid to argue with them for the purpose of convincing them. I understand there are other reasons one might do so.

   
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,12:31   

Faid:
First, thanks for giving me a straight answer. This helps the discussion enormously.
Quote
That is unfortunately true. But, like I said, The media that reported this case more vigorously were the most liberal ones: Most of those argued that police brutality and authority abuse has no color, and attention should be drawn to that by the mainstream media, not to the race of the policemen to take advantage of the people's sensitivity in racial issues.

I have to admit that I'm confused here. The only media that reported the Haggerty case, to my knowledge, were the local Chicago outlets. (Although there were probably scattered stories in some national newspapers). Which liberal media are you discussing?
Quote
So, once again, how does undermining that incident by the mainstream media constitute a liberal bias?
(Oh and, btw, I couldn't find any conservative media, site or blog that did not refer to this case, not to report it, but in retrospect, to argue for a liberal bias. But it's true I was not that motivated in my search...)

Once again, I am arguing for a multicultural bias, which overlaps imperfectly with a liberal bias. So I expect Faux News to undercover as well.

Russell:
Quote
Diallo: man on foot cornered by four cops in an apartment lobby.
Haggerty: woman - one of two suspects being approached by two cops after a car chase - a car chase the suspects led the cops on even after the cops shot at the car, suggesting they should be taken seriously.

Diallo: object mistaken for gun - wallet.
Haggerty: object mistaken for gun - "silvery" padlock.

Diallo: shot 41 times
Haggerty: shot once, so far as I can tell

All in all, I don't think these cases are all that comparable.

When you're right, you're right:

Diallo: The cops claimed that they believed one of their partners had been shot.

Quote
The officers claimed that they loudly identified themselves as NYPD officers and that Diallo ran up the outside steps toward his apartment house doorway at their approach, ignoring their orders to stop and "show his hands." As the suspect reached into his jacket, Officer Carroll believed Diallo was drawing a firearm and yelled "Gun!" to alert his colleagues. The officers opened fire on Diallo and during the burst Officer McMellon fell down the steps, appearing to be shot. The four officers fired forty-one shots, hitting Diallo nineteen times. Investigation found no weapons on Diallo's body; the item he had pulled out of his jacket was not a gun, but a wallet. McMellon had not been shot, but had merely tripped while backing down the stairs.

Haggerty: The cops made no such claim.

Diallo: Didn't respond to the officer's command and reached into his jacket (not that it's his fault - but how were the cops supposed to know he couldn't speak English?)
Haggerty: Raised hand slowly in air with cell-phone in hand (the "shiny padlock" defense was disputed by several witnesses)

Diallo: Resembled a serial rapist
Haggerty:Did not resemble a rapist

Diallo: Immigrant (shouldn't matter to readers, but does)
Haggerty: 100% Amurican

and last but not least:

Diallo: Everyone knows how many times he got shot, down to the last blank
Haggerty: Nobody outside of Chicago knew that she even got shot

We can go on like this forever. No cases are ever precisely alike, but the fact remains that Diallo got saturation coverage while Haggerty didn't get much, if any, national coverage. But if you're going to argue that Haggerty didn't deserve coverage due to extenuating circumstances, then may I submit the Rodney King case for inspection. I mean, you got a criminal, possibly high on angel dust, leading cops on a high-speed chase, violently resisting arrest, tossing officers like rag dolls, eating a taser shot like cornflakes, and who......is still with us, unlike Haggerty. Gee, with the 60+ murders every day, and with cops shooting people left and right, how ever did the national media find time in their precious schedule to saturate-cover a beating, even a savage one? I mean, it's not like anyone died, so by your "reasoning" it shouldn't have even made the national press, krrrect?
Quote
I don't believe the degree of overreaction is demonstrated. In fact, in light of the facts, I'm not sure the Chicago officers' actions could be called an overreaction at all.

Some would beg to differ witcha. And unlike you, they'd be willing to put their money where their mouth is.*


*And before anyone argues about Chicago "hedging" against the $100 million lawsuit, it's unlikely that the amount would have survived a trial & appeal even if she won, which according to Russell probably wouldn't happen anyway.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,13:02   

ericmurphy:
Quote
Okay, Bill. One more time: what are the social consequences of the racially-biased "liberal" media's failure to give equal time to minority-on-majority crime? We know what the remedy would be, but the question is, what is it a remedy for?

What failure? According to your response.....
Quote
Here's the problem with such a concession, Bill. If I conceded that the media under-report min-on-maj crime, I'd have to know that there is min-on-maj crime out there that is actually not reported. How would I know that? Even if it's true that there are more stories of maj-on-min crime than vice versa, couldn't it be the case that there simply is less min-on-maj crime to report in the first place?

Look: it may be true that the media under-report min-on-maj crime. You certainly haven't established that, but even if you had, I'd still maintain that the reasons for that may have nothing to do with racial discrimination (remember the Nazi-Jew/Israeli-Palestinian thing?) It's almost certainly true that the media emphasize maj-on-min crime, but the reasons for that seem to be good and proper to me. That the reasons may be "due to race" seems irrelevant, unless you equate being aware of the existence of race with being racist. I mean, I don't think anyone's contending that race doesn't exist.

.....there is no failure (oh, except for a wee little overemphasis now and again).  ;) You want me to discuss the ramifications of an event that you deny? Thanks, but no thanks. It's hard enough to get everyone to agree on the facts. ("Paley - define 'facts'. Then, define 'agree'. And what was your argument again? Oh, and before you tell us, please support your argument. But not with the internet - that's a breach of etiquette. And not with any books and journals that would force us to get off of our fat a$$es and check your sources. So support it. Not with that guy - he's a nut. We can't argue with his facts - but he's a nut. No, dummy, that study is overrturned because the authors explained it with evidence that they didn't put in their report. Gee, quit being dishonest. So what was your argument again? And remember, it's against liberalism only. I don't care what you said in another thread and what you contine to claim, we made up a thread title that has the word "liberal" in it, so by God you'll stick to the argument we made just for you, you ungrateful troll. Which you didn't even support. And was...... what, again?")

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

And people wonder why conservatives are so angry......

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,13:20   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 02 2006,18<!--emo&:0)
What failure? According to your response.....
.....there is no failure (oh, except for a wee little overemphasis now and again).

And people wonder why conservatives are so angry......

What's so hard about this question, Bill: If you're right, and there is a "multicultural" bias in the media, which leads to under-reporting of minority-on-majority crime, why is this something we should be concerned about? Why does this particular fault of the media need to be remedied, when so many other vastly more destructive shortcomings evidently don't?

Are you saying you can't tell me why you think this problem is serious until I admit there's a problem?

I have no particular problem with accepting that the media may over-emphasize majority-on-minority crime, and I've already given you a reason why this would be so. But you still haven't told me why this is so important to you.

Okay, I guess the only way I'm going to get an answer to my question is this way: "Okay, Bill. I accept your claim that the media under-reports minority-on-majority crime, and the reason is 'due to race' (whatever that means)."

Now, will you mind telling me why I should be alarmed by this development?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,13:24   

Quote (ericmurphy @ May 02 2006,16:10)
...
I, personally, was saying there were no WMDs (or at least no evidence of their existence) and no ties to al Qaeda long before it was showing up in the media, "liberal" or otherwise...

Can't say I agree with that particular point.

Iraq had used WMDs several times in the past. Chemical weapons were used by Iraq in the war with Iran and against Iraqi uprisings both in the north and south of Iraq.

UNSCOM was met with repeated non-cooperation in doing it's job.

I do agree that links between Iraq and the 911 atacks was very dodgy.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,13:44   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ May 02 2006,18:24)
Can't say I agree with that particular point.

Iraq had used WMDs several times in the past. Chemical weapons were used by Iraq in the war with Iran and against Iraqi uprisings both in the north and south of Iraq.

UNSCOM was met with repeated non-cooperation in doing it's job.

Long before 2002 (when the Bush administration started really pushing the idea of invading Iraq) or even early 2001 (when the Bush administration started exploring the possibility of invading Iraq), there were no appreciable amounts of WMDs in Iraq. According to Scott Ritter, who was actually in Iraq, who worked with UNSCOM in verifying Iraq's disarmament, 90% or more of Iraq's unconventional weapons capability had been destroyed by 1995. Kamel Hussein had also informed the CIA that he had personally ordered the destruction of Iraq's unconventional weapons capability in 1995.

No one denies that Iraq once possessed WMDs. No one denied that Iraq was interested in obtaining WMDs. But that's not what the administration was arguing. The administration was arguing that Iraq was in actual possession, in 2003, of not just unconventional weapons, but of nuclear weapons, and the "liberal" media not only did not contradict this position, but actively supported it, via reporters like Judith Miller who, lest it be forgot, worked for the New York Times.

In 2003, George Bush claimed, to universal astonishment, that Saddam Hussein had refused to allow UNMOVIC inspectors into the country in late 2002. Walter Pincus, of the Washington Post, noted that this statement "appeared to be contradicted" by the fact that UNMOVIC inspectors had entered Iraq in 2002, and were still there in March 2003, when the Bush administration advised them to evacuate in anticipation of the onset of armed hostilities.

Does that sound like liberal bias in the media to you?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,13:53   

Ya know, Ghosty, if you don't start reading with a little more comprehension than Thordudy, I'm going to have to consign you the same bin: too stupid to argue with. Here's what I mean.
Quote
... the fact remains that Diallo got saturation coverage while Haggerty didn't get much, if any
How often do you suppose people get shot when, after resisting arrest by leading cops on a car chase, the cop mistakes an unwise move for reaching for a gun? What fraction of those cases do you suppose you hear about? Suppose Diallo had been shot once by one cop, when the cop mistook reaching for a wallet for reaching for a gun. Do you suppose that would have been national news? I'm guessing no.

But, just for the record, I don't think the fact that the victim was black and the cops all white was immaterial to the story. Do you?

Quote
But if you're going to argue that Haggerty didn't deserve coverage due to extenuating circumstances, then may I submit the Rodney King case for inspection.
First of all, the Rodney King story would not be a story at all if there were not an extremely disturbing videotape recording of it. That pretty much lays to rest any relevance of the comparison right there. If there were a videotape of the Haggerty incident, I don't know, but I suspect it would look a lot more like a cop making the kinds of snap judgment call that comes with the job than the Rodney King incident did. And again, you seem to be ignoring the point that I keep making: the Rodney King incident is a classic example of a media-public positive feedback loop. Do you really wonder why the public reaction to the Haggerty incident is less? Do you think that's the fault of the news media?

Quote
I mean, it's not like anyone died, so by your "reasoning" it shouldn't have even made the national press, krrrect?
So, you have deduced from what I've written, that I think nothing less than a homicide merits newsworthiness? Pardon my saying so, but that would require your either being really dumb, or intentionally misreading.

Now, here's an example of really obnoxious arguing. I wrote:
Quote
I don't believe the degree of overreaction is demonstrated. In fact, in light of the facts, I'm not sure the Chicago officers' actions could be called an overreaction at all.
to which the GhostMan responded:
Quote
Some would beg to differ witcha. And unlike you, they'd be willing to put their money where their mouth is.
Look, dipwad*, when I say "I'm not sure" it reflects the fact that there's not a whole lot of information I have to go on here. You seem to be implying that I'm making the case that the police actions in this incident were entirely by the book and beyond question. And that not "putting my money where my mouth is" (or isn't as the case may be) is somehow pusillanimous.
Quote
...it's unlikely that the amount would have survived a trial & appeal even if she won, which according to Russell probably wouldn't happen anyway.
Why don't you restrict yourself to addressing what I actually write? Why do you find it necessary to invent fictional opinions to argue against?

*It's with some hesitation that I devolve to this kind of personal insult. But not without reason. I don't believe the kind of misreading documented here can be taken as benign sloppiness, and I want to communicate that that really pisses me off. If that's your goal - great. But I think you make yourself look pretty bad in the process.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,14:12   

Russell:
Quote
How often do you suppose people get shot when, after resisting arrest by leading cops on a car chase, the cop mistakes an unwise move for reaching for a gun? What fraction of those cases do you suppose you hear about? Suppose Diallo had been shot once by one cop, when the cop mistook reaching for a wallet for reaching for a gun. Do you suppose that would have been national news? I'm guessing no.

Funny, that sounds a lot like the Diallo shooting, except in the Diallo shooting, one of the cops shouted, "Gun!" That might explain the overkill. Oh yes, and seeing one of their buddies staggering backwards might have also unnerved them a little. As far as the Rodney King videotape, the Charles Baum beating was taped by a NBC news affiliate. Didn't do him much good, did it? Oh yes, there was the Post's 177 words. And remember, this was last year, or after the media saw the public was "hungry" for police brutality cases. So what happened?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,14:56   

Russell:
Quote
But, just for the record, I don't think the fact that the victim was black and the cops all white was immaterial to the story. Do you?

No, I think it's relevant and newsworthy. So what about Charles Baum?
Quote
And again, you seem to be ignoring the point that I keep making: the Rodney King incident is a classic example of a media-public positive feedback loop. Do you really wonder why the public reaction to the Haggerty incident is less? Do you think that's the fault of the news media?

So are you agreeing that minority-on-majority violence is more emphasized than the converse? Or not? Because if you argue that it isn't, your hypothesis makes no sense.
Quote
So, you have deduced from what I've written, that I think nothing less than a homicide merits newsworthiness? Pardon my saying so, but that would require your either being really dumb, or intentionally misreading.

You were the one emphasizing that this or that story wasn't good enough because it wasn't a murder:
Quote
Not sure what this one's all about. Is the mob one race and the victim another? I don't know. In any case, the report was on the local CBS nightly news. If the worker had not managed to get up and walk back to his cart, perhaps we would have heard more about it. But like I say, with dozens of lethal crimes in the country every day, there's a bit of competition for news coverage.

Quote
Exhibit EQuote  
Mall slay seen as hate crime
The slaying of a law-firm receptionist at a Westchester mall will be prosecuted as a hate crime because the ex-con charged with the crime confessed "he wanted to kill a white person," District Attorney Jeanine Pirro said yesterday.  
Well, now. Here's an actual murder. But guess what? There are dozens of murders in the country every day. All of them are horrible. A lot of them involving crazies, like this guy. Do you think every one of them involving a white murderer and a nonwhite victim is national news?

Now later, and much to your credit, you did admit that a non-lethal crime could find its way to the national media. But these earlier comments imply that you were judging crimes primarily on their lethality. But now I don't know - somtimes it's the seriousness of the injury; sometimes it's whether or not it was videotaped; other times, you count the number of bullets and/or shooters and make that the criterion. You've always got an excuse, though. Even when I gave you a lexis-nexis search on five similar cases, it still wasn't enough. But spin it like a spinning top, Russie-Russ; I'm enjoying the show. Now deal with this:
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An obvious example of the media’s preoccupation with race is evident in the cases of Thomas Jones and Rodney King. They suffered similar crimes yet received considerably different media attention.   In 1991 King was videotaped being beaten by several Los Angeles police officers. Images of Rodney King flashed on every television screen across America and throughout the world. The heinous incident drew considerable media coverage, not only from the actual broadcasting of the scene on television, but from the newspapers as well. The world was outraged at the seeming injustice and inhumanity that the police officers inflicted on King and the news responded by spreading the truth. During the first six months after the violent beating, major newspaper throughout the United States wrote 368 articles on King. With unprecedented media coverage given to the subject, King became a benchmark for police brutality. But what made his case unique was not the fact that police were abusing their power, rather its uniqueness was that it was videotaped. After all, police brutality is not a new phenomenon. Many have known only too well the evils that abuse of power can unleash on innocent victims but their voices have gone unheard. King’s videotape put a face on the victim and tyrant uniforms on the police. The March 12, 1991 edition of USA Today expressed the same sentiment when Ira Glasser, Executive Director of the ACLU and Dewey Stokes, President of the Fraternal Order of Police, stated that “the difference between this case and others is that this time they got caught; its on tape…The videotape is what made it sensational, got it on television and made it a national news story.”    Thankfully, Rodney King’s case brought the subject of police brutality to America’s conscience.   As Glassner and Stokes suggest, it would seem logical that any future videotaped episode of police brutality or abuse of power, would most likely receive massive media attention and public outrage.

   Media coverage of the following case defied logic. Recently in Philadelphia, Thomas Jones, a black male was severely beaten by police. A television helicopter caught the scene on tape.   Police fired fifty shots at him, grabbed him out of his car and beat him. The beating was all too familiar and reminiscent of the King incident.[except it might have been even worse! - Paley] The Washington Post expressed a sense of deja vu on July 14, 2000 stating , “what was shown on tape…was enough to bring to some minds the 1991 beating by Los Angeles Police of Rodney King, an incident that has become a rallying point against police brutality.”   If the media’s responses to Rodney King’s beating were unprecedented, and the sensationalized video became a rallying point against police brutality, attention drawn to the recently taped Jones beating would be insurmountable. Analysis of his coverage, however, tells a different story. His did not follow the same path in major newspapers that King’s had. During the first six months after each respective episode, newspapers wrote over 1000 articles on Rodney King and only 161 on Thomas Jones. In order to get a clearer understanding of the issue, a Lexis Nexis search for articles containing each victim’s name and police brutality showed the same disparity. The first six months revealed only seventy-six articles on Jones and 368 documents on King.

   As both cases had almost identical circumstances, including the race of the victims, what could the difference be between these cases?   The difference lies in the race of the police officers.   White officers beat Rodney King, while those who beat and shot Thomas Jones were both black and white. Perhaps the media chose to ignore Thomas Jones because his attackers could not be categorized as white and racist.An editorial in the July 16, 2000 edition of Newsday exemplifies the media’s discretional coverage of racially motivated violence, “Of the 59 blows, three officers delivered the most: 17 by a black plainclothes officer, 14 by a white plainclothesman and 10 by an uniformed black officer. His was an equal-opportunity stomping.”   It would not have been an equal opportunity ‘stomping’ had all white officers perpetrated it or even if they constituted half of the total blows delivered to Jones. Race seems to be a central issue in this case and we can see that it was mentioned several times but in the context of excusing the act. Their cases appear similar since they were both taped and broadcast worldwide, however a major difference noted in The Washington Post of July 17, 2000 states, “One key difference between the cases...is the racial configuration of the players. In Los Angeles, the officers who beat King with nightsticks all were white, while he was black. But in Philadelphia, the both white and black officers hit Jones, a black man.”  So the fact that there were more black officers beating on Jones was a key issue.   Papers were not as eager to report on Jones as they had been on previous police violence against minority victims.    Since the media is only interested in racial scandal, and not brutality, the Jones’ beating had to be justified since it didn’t fit the criteria for the stereotypical minority victim of a white despotic police force.   Accordingly, Mr. Jones’ story quickly disappeared.

[all emphases mine]

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Some would beg to differ witcha. And unlike you, they'd be willing to put their money where their mouth is.

Look, dipwad*, when I say "I'm not sure" it reflects the fact that there's not a whole lot of information I have to go on here. You seem to be implying that I'm making the case that the police actions in this incident were entirely by the book and beyond question. And that not "putting my money where my mouth is" (or isn't as the case may be) is somehow pusillanimous.
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...it's unlikely that the amount would have survived a trial & appeal even if she won, which according to Russell probably wouldn't happen anyway.
Why don't you restrict yourself to addressing what I actually write? Why do you find it necessary to invent fictional opinions to argue against?

Just one question: why not let the public read about these cases and judge for themselves? Seems reasonable to me. But liberals find the concept pretty scary, apparently.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
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(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,15:07   

Well little evos, you've bought yourself another day; my heaviest hitter is still in the basement. But I couldn't resist leaving you with a parting shot. Enjoy.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,15:44   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 02 2006,20<!--emo&:0)
Well little evos, you've bought yourself another day; my heaviest hitter is still in the basement. But I couldn't resist leaving you with a parting shot. Enjoy.

Okay, Bill. I'm batting zero with my question here. But maybe I'll try to phrase it somewhat differently:

"What do you suppose the media are trying to accomplish by stifling stories of minority-on-majority crime, and emphasizing majority-on-minority crime?"

In other words, what's the motivation?

You've got the media in the stock here, accused of racial bias. Now: presumably you've got a motive in mind. Would you care to share that motive with us? Perhaps the media are trying to precipitate a race war? Well, that would certainly be good for business. But since the majority of the owners and shareholders of large media companies are white, it seems strange they'd want to start a race war with themselves on the losing end of it. Maybe they're counting on numerical superiority to assure an annihilation of the bad guys they don't like to report about?

I've gotta admit: I'm kind of stymied here, wondering what you think the motivation is. Faid's theory makes sense. I guess I won't know whether your theory makes sense until I hear it.

Also, what does any of this have to do with evolution? I can see you having a bone to pick with "liberals," but I'm not sure where evolutionary biologists fit into the picture…

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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,15:48   

Whoops - forgot Eric's question:
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What's so hard about this question, Bill: If you're right, and there is a "multicultural" bias in the media, which leads to under-reporting of minority-on-majority crime, why is this something we should be concerned about? Why does this particular fault of the media need to be remedied, when so many other vastly more destructive shortcomings evidently don't?

Maybe not so important now, but I think it will become more important over time as immigration trends continue. And I just hate coverups. (By the way, I agree that the press kisses Bush's a$$. Their coverage of his administration is a sad joke. But I'm preaching to the choir on this issue).
[edit: this response will have to suffice for tonight, Eric]

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Russell



Posts: 1082
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(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,16:33   

Look. Here are three specific questions directed at you, Ghostface:
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How often do you suppose people get shot when, after resisting arrest by leading cops on a car chase, the cop mistakes an unwise move for reaching for a gun? What fraction of those cases do you suppose you hear about? Suppose Diallo had been shot once by one cop, when the cop mistook reaching for a wallet for reaching for a gun. Do you suppose that would have been national news?
Is this your idea of an answer:
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Funny, that sounds a lot like the Diallo shooting, except in the Diallo shooting, one of the cops shouted, "Gun!" That might explain the overkill. Oh yes, and seeing one of their buddies staggering backwards might have also unnerved them a little.
Maybe if I ask them one at a time, I'll have better luck. Let's just go with this: do you suppose that if Diallo had been shot by one or two cops, once or twice, because they mistakenly thought he was reaching for a gun, that would have been national news? That would be one (1) "Yes or No" question.
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As far as the Rodney King videotape, the Charles Baum beating was taped by a NBC news affiliate. Didn't do him much good, did it?
Is there a point here, somewhere? First you brought up Rodney King to show how skewed the (non)coverage of the Haggerty incident was. Well, that really didn't work. So now you're substituting the Baum case. First of all, no one is denying that the Rodney King case was all about - real or perceived - racism. Did you have the impression that someone was? Do you think that's inappropriate?  Secondly, setting aside the question of race just for a moment and for the sake of discussion, were the two beatings, or more to the point, the two tapes similarly brutal? I seem to recall several incidents of bad police behavior caught on videotape, but the only victim whose name I remember is Rodney King. I suggest two reasons why that might be (1) it was particularly vicious, and (2) there was that media-public positive feedback loop I keep trying to get you to acknowledge. (We'll consider the fact that the cop/victim ratio was 4/1 and 1/1 in the King and Baum cases, respectively, as part of reason #1). The Baum case certainly does sound like police misconduct. But, regrettably, police misconduct - even the white on black kind - is not necessarily national news. Baum was "struck" 8 times - after being handcuffed. No doubt about it; that's not good. But what does that mean? Have you seen the Baum videotape, Ghost? Can you tell us whether the brutality of the assault, or seriousness of the injuries, was comparable to the Rodney King case? Or does that not matter?
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(Russell: ) But, just for the record, I don't think the fact that the victim was black and the cops all white was immaterial to the story. Do you?
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(GoP: ) No, I think it's relevant and newsworthy.
Good. I'm glad we got that out of the way.
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So what about Charles Baum?
Much less so. Minority on majority police brutality is not going to set off alarms about oppression, triggering that all-important media-public positive feedback loop I keep telling you about.
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So are you agreeing that minority-on-majority violence is more emphasized than the converse? Or not? Because if you argue that it isn't, your hypothesis makes no sense.
Huh? Agreeing with whom? What hypothesis? Is there a typo or something in there, the correction of which would render this sensible?
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But these earlier comments imply that you were judging crimes primarily on their lethality
Geez, Ghosty. You're really getting desperate here; either that or your reading comprehension issues are more serious than I thought.

Let me try to break this down for you. Crimes - whether or not a racial angle is involved - come in a huge range of brutality. There are far too many crimes on a daily basis to be covered by the national press. Now, you can be pretty sure that disorderly conduct, including, say, hurling racial epithets, is not going to make national news. One factor that increases the newsworthiness of a crime is its brutality. All murders are brutal (at least the way I see it). But not all egregious brutality is murder. Can you grasp that? Moreover, as I've said all along, there are other factors, too, beyond brutality that influence the newsworthiness of a crime. One of those would be racial implications. Now, do you really think you can defend your characterization that I claimed nothing short of murder was newsworthy?
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But now I don't know - somtimes it's the seriousness of the injury; sometimes it's whether or not it was videotaped; other times, you count the number of bullets and/or shooters and make that the criterion.
I doubt that I need to point out to anyone reading this how lame this is. All of these things contribute to the newsworthiness of an incident. As does, sometimes, the racial disposition of perpetrators and victims. Now here's another direct question for you, Ghosty: Which of these factors that I've brought up do you think should not contribute to the newsworthiness of the incident in question?
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You've always got an excuse, though. Even when I gave you a lexis-nexis search on five similar cases, it still wasn't enough.
Wasn't enough for what? What do you think your lexis-nexis revelations proved?
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But spin it like a spinning top, Russie-Russ; I'm enjoying the show.
I'm so glad. Just think how much you'd enjoy it if you actually understood it. But I'm afraid that, unless you show some effort and/or ability in that direction, the show's over.

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Eldin



Posts: 12
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,16:41   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 02 2006,20:48)

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Maybe not so important now, but I think it will become more important over time as immigration trends continue. And I just hate coverups.


You will note that this is not an answer. You 'think' it will become 'important', but fail to specify why. We are none the wiser, Ghost.

Also, you should note that majority on minority is overreported for a reason as has been specified before. But what about minority on majority?

A little anecdote. Here in Holland, tensions are building ever since some rampant queer took hold of the elections, became a populist succes by demonising his running mates (mudslinging) then accused his opponents of that same tactic. He was subsequently killed by a dutch enviromentalist and since then we are living in a state of perpetual fear. The minority (eastern-europeans, Arabs, Turks, Blacks) is now considered a problem due to his preachings, and every time something is done by a member of those communities it will be reported. Good minority on majority coverage!

But what's the result? The climate in the Netherlands is becoming increasingly grim, with an increasing amount of minorities stating they are given less chance which leads to them becoming frustrated and hateful, which in term serves to make the majority more paranoid, which then makes the minorities more militant, etc. etc.

That is not to say that these things shouldn't be reported, but it just makes me very mad when I see something like 'Man kills family for the love of Polish prostitute' (which was big news here). The article would not have suffered in content if the adjective 'Polish' had been left out. All it is doing in there is making us distrust Poles.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,04:21   

Russell:
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Maybe if I ask them one at a time, I'll have better luck. Let's just go with this: do you suppose that if Diallo had been shot by one or two cops, once or twice, because they mistakenly thought he was reaching for a gun, that would have been national news? That would be one (1) "Yes or No" question.

Actually, yes. Would it have received as much coverage? No. But I do think it would have gotten more attention than Gideon Busch:
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If Gideon Busch’s story had followed the trajectory of Amadou Diallo, it would have been a national outrage, with coverage matching or exceeding the more than 1000 stories on the Diallo case. Revealingly, Gideon Busch’s coverage paled in comparison to Diallo. The mainstream media ignored Busch. In the northeast, forty-six articles were written, two in the southeast, zero in the west, and zero in the midwest. The first month’s forty-eight national articles were less than what Amadou had received in the southeast alone. And a majority of the articles came from local newspapers such as The Daily News and The New York Post.

   The United States was not alone in minimally covering Busch. Worldwide he received minor attention in the first month after his death. Canada and South America didn’t write any articles on him. They wrote forty-seven for Diallo, thirty for Dorismond, and twenty-one for Thomas. Busch inspired only two articles in Europe. Lexis-Nexis revealed the grand total for the first month of each victim’s international coverage, including Europe, Asia/Pacific regions, Africa and the Mideast, and North/South America. Amadou had 109 articles, Dorismond sixty-nine, Thomas 101, compared to Busch’s paltry four. Patrick Dorismond, shot a year after Busch, received more media attention abroad than Busch received in the United States and the world combined.

      Busch’s less than stellar attention abroad might be attributed to the fact that he was armed. But such an explanation for the media’s silence presumes that the Busch story was understood as a legitimate police response to an armed assailant, rather than an episode of police brutality. When in fact, many of the Busch news accounts that covered the episode alluded to Busch’s death being an example of police violence.

   While mainstream media ignored Busch, it would be easy to assume that he’d receive more attention in ethnic and religious newspapers. Suprisingly, Busch, a Hasidic Jew received less publicity in Jewish newspapers than did Diallo. The Jewish Week wrote six articles on Busch – nine on Diallo. Forward, another Jewish newspaper wrote seven articles on Busch and fourteen on Diallo. The Jewish Advocate wrote one article on Diallo but did not advocate for Gideon. New Jersey Jewish News published six articles on Diallo- zero on Busch. Was that because he was not from Jersey? It is unlikely, as Diallo was not either. Other papers from the New York region are guilty of the same offense. El Diario/La Prensa, the largest circulation Spanish newspaper in the area, wrote sixty-five articles on Diallo and a measly five on Busch. The disproportion is evident in other ethnic papers as well such as Filipino Reporter, The Italian Voice, and Irish Voice, all of which published between one and five articles each on Diallo but did not follow suit for Busch. Perhaps both mainstream and ethnic newspapers find matters that don’t sensationalize racism as arbitrary or unnewsworthy. Media gives more publicity and attention to police brutality cases that can be attributed to racism. Cases such as Busch’s are essentially ignored.

    In order to understand the media’s negligent reporting on Mr. Busch, it is necessary to understand the difference between him and the other police victims. The fact that Busch is white, while the other victims are black might be the reason for the media’s unenthusiastic portrayal of police brutality versus the apparent hype of racism. The media has exhibited a determined obsession with over emphasizing police violence as racially motivated. Could the media be exploiting America’s struggle with racism in order to create a crisis that generates news?

    The media’s compulsive chase after white on black police violence reveals the beginning of what can arguably be a racial panic. The media’s creation of a racial panic is best shown through a former moral panic created by the media in regards to drugs.
Philip Jenkins’ research published in Justice Quarterly reprinted in The American Drug Scene, shows the influence that the media has in creating a drug epidemic. He warns that a moral panic regarding a particular drug actually advertises it to many Americans. In other words, the media has the capacity to create a problem that may not be as problematic as the coverage maintains it to be. For example, Jenkins suggests that in the 1980s, “Newspapers assigned journalists to cover such stories as their sole responsibility, …the papers had a vested interest in the constant generation of newsworthy items in the area.”  Journalists worked solely to cover drug stories. They pursued and covered the so-called drug epidemic. Newspapers were purposely over extending their coverage on particular drugs, sensationalizing an epidemic, which resulted in a moral panic and increased drug use.   Could the media be exploiting America’s struggle with racism in order to create a crisis that generates news?    Jenkins’ research demonstrated another interesting media trend, the disappearance of a crisis. The media had created a methamphetamine, or ice, national crisis. Unfortunately for the media, “the ice danger did not materialize as a national crisis, and the prospective ‘plague’ faded rapidly in early 1990”.  If a real epidemic does not result from the coverage, the issue is quickly dropped. The media then moves on to another topic that it can manipulate.

[my emp]

Oh, and by the way, ol' Gideon was shot twelve times by four police officers arranged in a semicircle. Yes, he lunged with a weapon - a &*^$ing hammer. A hammer. And he was mentally ill....don't you think the media could have spun that aspect of the story? I can see the headlines: "Four cops pump 12 bullets into mental patient armed with hammer!!!" But Gideon never got the chance outside of mostly local coverage.......

By the way, I notice you misplaced the part where my source contrasts the Thomas Jones and Rodney King cases, you know, where they note:
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Media coverage of the following case defied logic. Recently in Philadelphia, Thomas Jones, a black male was severely beaten by police. A television helicopter caught the scene on tape.   Police fired fifty shots at him, grabbed him out of his car and beat him. The beating was all too familiar and reminiscent of the King incident. The Washington Post expressed a sense of deja vu on July 14, 2000 stating , “what was shown on tape…was enough to bring to some minds the 1991 beating by Los Angeles Police of Rodney King, an incident that has become a rallying point against police brutality.”   If the media’s responses to Rodney King’s beating were unprecedented, and the sensationalized video became a rallying point against police brutality, attention drawn to the recently taped Jones beating would be insurmountable. Analysis of his coverage, however, tells a different story. His did not follow the same path in major newspapers that King’s had. During the first six months after each respective episode, newspapers wrote over 1000 articles on Rodney King and only 161 on Thomas Jones. In order to get a clearer understanding of the issue, a Lexis Nexis search for articles containing each victim’s name and police brutality showed the same disparity. The first six months revealed only seventy-six articles on Jones and 368 documents on King.

   As both cases had almost identical circumstances, including the race of the victims, what could the difference be between these cases?   The difference lies in the race of the police officers.   White officers beat Rodney King, while those who beat and shot Thomas Jones were both black and white. Perhaps the media chose to ignore Thomas Jones because his attackers could not be categorized as white and racist. An editorial in the July 16, 2000 edition of Newsday exemplifies the media’s discretional coverage of racially motivated violence, “Of the 59 blows, three officers delivered the most: 17 by a black plainclothes officer, 14 by a white plainclothesman and 10 by an uniformed black officer. His was an equal-opportunity stomping.”   It would not have been an equal opportunity ‘stomping’ had all white officers perpetrated it or even if they constituted half of the total blows delivered to Jones. Race seems to be a central issue in this case and we can see that it was mentioned several times but in the context of excusing the act. Their cases appear similar since they were both taped and broadcast worldwide, however a major difference noted in The Washington Post of July 17, 2000 states, “One key difference between the cases...is the racial configuration of the players. In Los Angeles, the officers who beat King with nightsticks all were white, while he was black. But in Philadelphia, the both white and black officers hit Jones, a black man.”  So the fact that there were more black officers beating on Jones was a key issue.   Papers were not as eager to report on Jones as they had been on previous police violence against minority victims.    Since the media is only interested in racial scandal, and not brutality, the Jones’ beating had to be justified since it didn’t fit the criteria for the stereotypical minority victim of a white despotic police force.   Accordingly, Mr. Jones’ story quickly disappeared.

Not up to your standards?  ???

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,05:10   

Lots of pasting; still no point.

No source listed for those last two dumps. I assume they came from the usual impeccable bastions of impartiality. Still, the responsible thing to do would be to acknowledge your source.

That way, maybe we could learn enough about the Gideon Busch story, for instance, to form some basis for comparison. As it is, we don't know nearly enough, like why he attracted the attention of the police in the first place.

Rodney King: a story that ignites a media-public positive feedback firestorm because of real or perceived racial animus

Thomas Jones: a story with similar brutality, but missing any credible racial animus, gets national coverage, but less. It fails to ignite that all-important media-public positive feedback loop. Is this unfair? Was the King coverage excessive? Was the press negligent in covering the Jones case?

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Not up to your standards?
No. It's not. Is it up to yours?

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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,06:31   

Russell:
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Lots of pasting; still no point.

Especially if you've closed your mind to one....
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No source listed for those last two dumps. I assume they came from the usual impeccable bastions of impartiality. Still, the responsible thing to do would be to acknowledge your source.

:0  :0  :0  :(  :(  :D  :D  :D

Russell, you loon, this is the same source we've been arguing about for over two pages now! You know, the one that I've been "quote-mining" from! The one that "supports" your feedback loop hypothesis! Kids, liberalism rots the brain.....Exhibit A: Posters on Panda's Thumb.

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That way, maybe we could learn enough about the Gideon Busch story, for instance, to form some basis for comparison. As it is, we don't know nearly enough, like why he attracted the attention of the police in the first place.

Rodney King: a story that ignites a media-public positive feedback firestorm because of real or perceived racial animus

Thomas Jones: a story with similar brutality, but missing any credible racial animus, gets national coverage, but less. It fails to ignite that all-important media-public positive feedback loop. Is this unfair? Was the King coverage excessive? Was the press negligent in covering the Jones case?

In other words, you do concede that the media covers minority-on majority crimes/ brutality cases differently from the converse, correct? I realise that we ascribe different motives to the media's actions, but please answer this question:

Does the media emphasize majority-on-minority crime, and de-emphasize minority-on-majority crime? Just yes or no, please.

Yes or no. Then we'll talk motive.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,06:58   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ May 03 2006,11:31)
Kids, liberalism rots the brain.....Exhibit A: Posters on Panda's Thumb.

I consider myself to be liberal, Dave. Do you consider my brain to be "rotten"?

Quote
Does the media emphasize majority-on-minority crime, and de-emphasize minority-on-majority crime? Just yes or no, please.

Yes or no. Then we'll talk motive.


Actually, you mean "Yes. Then we'll talk about motive." If we don't admit your premise, we can't even discuss your conclusion.

My point is, even if your premise is valid, it's hard to picture what your conclusion would be.

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

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Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,07:31   

Quote
this is the same source we've been arguing about for over two pages now! You know, the one that I've been "quote-mining" from! The one that "supports" your feedback loop hypothesis! Kids, liberalism rots the brain.....Exhibit A: Posters on Panda's Thumb.
Oh, really? Go back over your posts and see when the last time you acknowledged that source. You quoted from it extensively yesterday, again without acknowledging it. In the last two pages, I see a Wikipedia quote cited, and before that, a FrontPage article. Regrettably, I have to use my admittedly limited memory capacity for purposes other than keeping track of your quotes from dozens of posts back. Now, I might be tempted to draw conclusions about how poor scholarship and attention to details like acknowledging sources correlates with troglodyte politics, but that would be wrong.
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In other words, you do concede that the media covers minority-on majority crimes/ brutality cases differently from the converse, correct?
Oh, was that not clear? I thought I had gone over that about a dozen times while explaining the whole media-public positive feedback loop to you. Yes. There are differences in the coverage of the two groups. Majority-on-minority crime - all other things being equal - merits a bit more newsworthiness than the reverse.
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Does the media emphasize majority-on-minority crime, and de-emphasize minority-on-majority crime? Just yes or no, please.
You'll have to make do with the answer I just gave, unless you define what "emphasis" is relative to. Relative to the coverage you think is appropriate? Relative to the coverage you'd expect in the absence of any racial component?

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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,07:37   

Eric:
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I consider myself to be liberal, Dave.

OK, you out-zinged me. Who's Dave?????
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Do you consider my brain to be "rotten"?

Naaah, yer one of the lads, Eric. And to your credit, you have conceded the basic facts, although you disagree with me over how to interpret them, or even whether they're even worth interpreting. But Russell seems to want to have it both ways:
1) He denies that the media is underemphasizing minority-on-majority crimes
2) Then he turns around and argues his loop hypothesis, which, to be coherent, must assume that this underemphasis takes place

Plus, he just forgot the existence of a source, the same source Faid and I have been arguing over for the past two pages, despite the fact that Faid and I have probably quoted every word of it during our debate. Look, Russ, I'm sorry I called you a loon and implied yer brain was rotten. But stop making bone-headed arguments, will ya?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 03 2006,07:46   

edit

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
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