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  Topic: Sharks, and why some of us are interested in them.< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,16:55   

Ok, a couple of folks have asked me to make a post about sharks, what I did with them and why.  This has taken a while to post, partly because the machine I originally composed it on crashed, and partly because I was trying to find some of my original photos (all on slides it turns out, unfortunately).

I'm not going to go into the current status of research on shark evolution and cladistics, as that has been covered in other places, and it was never my focus anyway.

you can get a brief overview of that subject here:

http://www.elasmo-research.org/educati....yst.htm

...and an old paleo friend of mine from Berkeley days specialized in this area as well, so if you're curious about that particular aspect, I can try to track down where he's at these days, or you can yourself (he's a nice guy, I swear!):

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/vertebrates/Doug/doug.html

For a few years, back in the early-mid 90's, I worked as the Science Director for an NGO that was primarily oriented towards researching shark behavior and migration patterns.  It still exists (such as it is), in fact, and you can visit the website here:

http://www.pelagic.org/

However, at the same time, I would rather recommend its inevitable replacement:

http://psrc.mlml.calstate.edu/neweve.htm

which contains much more complete references, and many that will give a good start to anyone thinking about this issue (check the recommended reading link).

Here, I'm going to go into why we were looking at migration patterns, and a bit about the biology of sharks that's relevant to the issue.

In case you want to bypass all my text and just look at the pictures, you can grab an excellent in depth explanation of why there is interest in studying shark populations for later perusal in this report:

Branstetter, S. (ed.). 1993. Conservation biology of elasmobranchs. NOAA Technical Report NMFS, U.S. Department of Commerce, no. 115, 99 pp.

which, IIRC, you can either grab directly or order from here:

http://spo.nwr.noaa.gov/trlist.htm

Let's start with some of the fun stuff:



This is a pic of one of the most common pelagic (open ocean) sharks in the Pacific, the blue shark (Prionace glauca ).

It's a great species to work with for tagging studies, as it is quite common and often caught as a bycatch of the longline and gillnet fisheries.

So why bother to tag them?

Well, a number of reasons really.  One is that pelagic sharks like blues are far ranging, and often follow important species of food fish that are also pelagic (like tunas), so it is good to know where they cross over national boundaries.  Different countries have different fishing regulations, but they may affect the same populations if those populations range widely.  So, it's important to know which specific fisheries the sharks are subject to, as this gives us important information in figuring out how best to conserve them.  It would be nice to think that just changing fishing regulations in this country would solve population problems in any given fishery, but studying the blue shark (and tuna too), suggests this is not the case for such far ranging animals, and the data gained from tags recovered from captured animals indicates which countries must be included in an overal species conservation plan.

Another reason is that blues, like most large pelagic sharks, are essentially apex predators in the systems they are found in.  As such, their role in maintaining the biodiversity of any given system should logically play a significant role.  Rough estimates of population sizes and migratory patterns garnered from tag data is at least a start in objectively examining what relative impacts they may have, which areas they are likely to have an impact on, as well as what might be the effects of significant removals.

Why sharks though?  

One thing that sharks in particular are noted for, is that they are typically slow breeders.  For example, in blue sharks gestation is takes 8-10 months, and it often takes a dozen or more years to reach maturity.  As such, fishing pressures that would normally be sustainable in faster breeding species are entirely unsustainable in sharks.  A great case on point was the opening of the Angel Shark fishery in CA by CA Fish and Game in the early-mid 80's.  Data on how rockfish responded to various levels of fishing pressure were not applicable at all to the newly opened fishery for angel sharks, and the populations quickly collapsed under the pressure.

In addition, sharks are fairly unique as targets of the fishing industry in that there is a market for mere pieces of them (namely, fins for shark fin soup and for the cartilage market - which is huge).  What this does is allow a fishing fleet to concentrate on storage of the most profitable bits of the sharks, and thus take many, many, more individuals than they normally would be able to if they had to take the whole animal.  We often see fishing fleets simply slicing the fins from live sharks, and dumping the rest of the animal back into the water.  This of course puts even heavier pressure on shark populations than would be normal for a standard food fish.

Being an apex level predator, sharks are also of interest in the study of how introduced toxins bioaccumulate, and we also were involved in taking many, many blood samples for analysis.  PCB's, Metals, and other pollutants are carried in the sharks blood. The samples collected from pelagic blue sharks can be compared with samples taken from benthic sharks and estuarine sharks to analyze differences in the levels of contamination, as well as giving clues as to what toxins are being accumulated in any given ecosystem.

We also worked with estuarine sharks like leopard sharks ( Triakis semifasciatus ) and grey smoothounds ( Mustelus californicus ), deepwater sharks like sixgill sharks ( Hexanchus griseus ), and "coastal" sharks like the white ( Carcharodon carcharias ); even spent time looking at basking sharks ( Cetorhinus maximus ), but by the time i really got rolling there, basking sharks had become inordinately hard to find.  I'm still unsure if this was due to some particularly heavy fishing pressure (we did find basking shark fins for sale in some markets in San Francisco), or whether something else has changed in the distribution of their favored prey items that simply means they hadn't come around much in several years.  Populations around the UK have show fluctuations as well, but not nearly as dramatic as those observed in CA.

We typically did the tag/release studies and took blood samples from ALL the species we looked at, but other studies varied from species to species.  For example, I was primarily focused on analyzing severe sex ratio bias in the populations of grey smoothhounds captured in the Elkhorn Slough area, while others were focused on researching habitat utilization patterns in populations of white sharks around areas north of Santa Cruz, and at the Faralon Islands (near San Francisco).  Still others were working on analyzing tissue samples to examine population genetics (Giacomo Bernardi for example: http://bio.research.ucsc.edu/people/bernardi/Bernardi/ ), and again for use in toxicology studies.

When tagging the sharks, we typically used standard CA Fish and Game tags (commonly known as "spagheti" tags) that we placed typically at the base of the dorsal fin.

here's an example (also known as a Floy tag):



though the ones we used are of course larger, heavier, and with stainless steel anchors instead.

I'm going to cut this off at this point, and just answer specific questions, otherwise I'll just ramble on and on.  I wish I had more perty piktures, but all my stuff is still in slide form, and my scanner broke ages ago.  a lot of it is on the psrf site, and there are far better photographs available than that ones I had anyway (Callaghan Fritz-Cope took most of the pics you see there)

I would suggest that anybody interested in shark conservation, population biology, or just anything having to do with sharks in general start with an email to Greg Caillet at Moss Landing Marine Station near Monterey, CA.  To get an idea of the kind of work that started much of the interest in elasmobranch conservation biology, you might try locating this paper:

Caillet, G. M. (1982). Age and growth of pelagic sharks: Management information for California's emerging fisheries, Sea Grant Report.

please feel free to post questions if you have any.  I'm more than happy to answer any I can.

cheers

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,19:18   

Thanks for all that, Ich.  Do continue.

I was about ten when I saw Jaws at the drive in movies.  That sucker was huge.

With that permanent scarring in mind, here's my thing about sharks...

Sharks come in two basic flavors:

Hammerheads, which look really cool but want to eat me for lunch.

All the Rest.

The "All the Rest" flavor can be broken down into two subflavors...

The kinds that want to eat me.

and

The other kinds that want to eat me.

They are very cool to look at as long as they're behind the aquarium glass, but in case I haven't made it clear, I'm afeared o' sharks.  They want to eat me.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,19:43   

actually, very few species of sharks are considered at all dangerous.

there are only about 15 species that have ever been confirmed to attack humans, out of about 500 or so.

they range in size from the pygmy shark, at around 8-10", to the whale shark, which is by far and away the largest fish in the ocean at over 40'.

even if you are hanging in waters where dangerous species are relatively common, your chances of being attacked are about the same as being struck by lightning during a standard rainstorm (VERY low).

moreover, fatalities are extremely rare, even among those that have been attacked.

there is no evidence that sharks regularly hunt humans for food; typically most attacks are either:

defensive (reef sharks will sometimes attack divers or snorkelers that encroach on their territories)

mistaken identity (sharks often hunt in turbid waters, which helps hide them from their prey, but also makes visibility poor for the shark)

investigation (sharks appear to often be curious about uncommon objects in their environment, and much of their sensory equipment is in and around their mouths; they don't have hands and fingers, after all.  But then, even human babies like to put things in their mouths to investigate).

If you are interested, you can get great information on shark attack statistics (and how best to avoid being a statistic) on George Burgess' site:

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/sharks/isaf/isafabout.htm

just be aware that the statistics don't support the level of hysteria associated with sharks, as an order of magnitude more people are killed each year by bees, for example.

I've logged thousands of hours in and under waters where even whites are relatively common (they really aren't all that common anywhere), as have many of my acquaintances, and over 25 years of diving, and tens of thousands of hours logged between myself and all of my acquaintances, I only count ONE instance of a shark attack in that whole time.

that guy was riding an underwater scooter (bright yellow, no less), in an area he had been warned earlier a white shark had been sighted.

He must have looked like a giant bass plug!

end result:

the scars he received vastly improved his sex life.

:)

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,19:59   

Thanks Ichthyic.  I've actually been told most all of that before by other folks who also know what they're talking about.

I really appreciate your efforts, but my fear of sharks has nothing whatever to do with reality or reason.  I'm perfectly aware of that, as well.  They still want to eat me, though.  I can see it in their soulless black eyes.

 
Quote
Sometimes that shark he looks right into ya. Right into your eyes. And, you know, the thing about a shark... he's got lifeless eyes. Black eyes. Like a doll's eyes.

When he comes at ya, doesn't seem to be living... until he bites ya, and those black eyes roll over white and then... ah then you hear that terrible high-pitched screamin'. The ocean turns red, and despite all the poundin' and the hollerin', they all come in and they... rip you to pieces.

You know by the end of that first dawn, lost a hundred men. I don't know how many sharks, maybe a thousand.

I know how many men, they averaged six an hour.

On Thursday morning, Chief, I bumped into a friend of mine, Herbie Robinson from Cleveland. Baseball player. Boatswain's mate. I thought he was asleep. I reached over to wake him up. Bobbed up, down in the water just like a kinda top. Upended. Well, he'd been bitten in half below the waist.

Noon, the fifth day, Mr. Hooper, a Lockheed Ventura saw us. He swung in low and he saw us... he was a young pilot, a lot younger than Mr. Hooper. Anyway, he saw us and he come in low and three hours later a big fat PBY comes down and starts to pick us up.

You know that was the time I was most frightened... waitin' for my turn. I'll never put on a lifejacket again. So, eleven hundred men went in the water; 316 men come out and the sharks took the rest, June the 29th, 1945


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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,20:02   

Remember that scene in Jaws, when Quint was describing the fate of the crew of the Indianapolis?  Yeah.  I thought so; one of the best scenes in the movie.  

From the Jaws Trivia Page:
Quint's tale of the USS Indianapolis was conceived by playwright Howard Sackler, lengthened by screenwriter John Milius and rewritten by Robert Shaw following a disagreement between screenwriters Peter Benchley and Carl Gottlieb. Shaw presented his text, and Benchley and Gottlieb agreed that this was exactly what was needed. Whoever was responsible, Quint got the date of the sinking wrong, claiming it was June 29, 1945, when in reality it was 12:14 am on July 30th, 1945. Universal has toyed with the idea of making the "Indianapolis" incident into a film, using a young Quint as the lead, ever since. Note that June 29, however, is the date (in the film) that the young boy was eaten by the shark, as can be seen in the hand-written "reward" notice.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Albatrossity2



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Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,20:15   

Sharks are pretty cool, but sadly missing (for at least the past 60 million years or so) from my part of the galaxy. But I did have the pleasure of graduating from the same Biology department as Leonard Compagno, who went on to become a famous shark biologist. I think he is now at some shark research institute in South Africa. He probably still has the dubious record of being the graduate student who took longest to get his doctoral degree in Stanford Biology (starting in the mid 1960's sometime and finishing in 1979), due in no small measure to the difficulty of the dissertation topic. That would be shark demographics, tag and release and wait for the data to come in... I wish I had been around to hear his dissertation defense, but I was already at a post-doc and never had the chance.

Shark fear is an interesting and perhaps primal fear, if my youngest daughter is any indication. When she was about 2 years old, I attended a Biophysical Society meeting in Baltimore. We had a chance to visit the then-new Baltimore Aquarium, which has a large circular tank with sharks and a spiral ramp down the middle of the tank. So the sharks basically circle you in the tank as you walk along. My daughter was excited about most of the interesting fish that swam by, but would recoil and cling to me every time a big shark came by. I always wondered if anyone knew any more about this sort of reaction.  When (at what age) does it kick in?  Is it universal?  Who knows?

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,20:17   

Quote (J-Dog @ June 11 2007,20:02)
Remember that scene in Jaws, when Quint was describing the fate of the crew of the Indianapolis?  Yeah.  I thought so; one of the best scenes in the movie.  

From the Jaws Trivia Page:
Quint's tale of the USS Indianapolis was conceived by playwright Howard Sackler, lengthened by screenwriter John Milius and rewritten by Robert Shaw following a disagreement between screenwriters Peter Benchley and Carl Gottlieb. Shaw presented his text, and Benchley and Gottlieb agreed that this was exactly what was needed. Whoever was responsible, Quint got the date of the sinking wrong, claiming it was June 29, 1945, when in reality it was 12:14 am on July 30th, 1945. Universal has toyed with the idea of making the "Indianapolis" incident into a film, using a young Quint as the lead, ever since. Note that June 29, however, is the date (in the film) that the young boy was eaten by the shark, as can be seen in the hand-written "reward" notice.

Heh, I was just reading a web page about the real story.  Interesting stuff.

And I'd say that that's one of the best scenes in movie history.  Shaw did an awesome job with that.  Oddly enough, Jaws is one of my favorite movies EVAH.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,20:22   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ June 11 2007,20:15)
Shark fear is an interesting and perhaps primal fear, if my youngest daughter is any indication. When she was about 2 years old, I attended a Biophysical Society meeting in Baltimore. We had a chance to visit the then-new Baltimore Aquarium, which has a large circular tank with sharks and a spiral ramp down the middle of the tank. So the sharks basically circle you in the tank as you walk along. My daughter was excited about most of the interesting fish that swam by, but would recoil and cling to me every time a big shark came by. I always wondered if anyone knew any more about this sort of reaction.  When (at what age) does it kick in?  Is it universal?  Who knows?

Very cool, though.  There's a tank with sharks at the aquarium in Wilmington (just south of here), and last time I was there there were two divers in the tank.  Their scuba gear was wired up so they were giving a talk to some elementary school kids who were all sitting on the carpet in rapt attention.

I had to stop and listen, and the kids got to ask some questions of the divers.  Really good questions, too.  It was neat.

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,20:23   

Compagno helped pioneer the study of shark population biology that Greg Caillet ended up becoming likely the current world's leading expert on.

Greg is about done, however, sorry to say.  Poor guy has had a heart attack, and STILL juggles three major research related functions.  I can't imagine he'll keep that up much longer.

I'm at a loss to say who will be considered the next generation's leading shark expert.

any guesses?

here's where Leonard is now, btw:

http://www.amonline.net.au/fishes/about/visitors/compagno.htm

actually, even that's dated.

hmm, then i would try here:

http://www.iziko.org.za/nh/research/src/index.html

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,21:08   

Ichy, I'm going to have to take back everything I ever said or thought about you.  This is the most content and substance I've ever seen you post.  To be honest I didn't think you were capable and I'm pleased to be wrong.  Great stuff, thanks for the post.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 11 2007,21:12   

sorry to say it, but this isn't even the work that I published on my thesis that I put up here a while back.

you keep seeming to think that my responses to YOU are indicative of anything other than what they are:

responses to YOU.

that said, did you actually HAVE a question?

otherwise, I'm not particularly partial to backhanded compliments.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,00:41   

No, actually I just enjoyed reading.  I'm kinda partial to the subject after a few close encounters and I can see your passion in you're writing.  It's always enjoyable to read a topic that the writer really enjoys, much more incitful, I think.  No backhanded compliment there, just the honest truth.

  
khan



Posts: 1554
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,08:49   

Quote
just be aware that the statistics don't support the level of hysteria associated with sharks, as an order of magnitude more people are killed each year by bees, for example.


I recall reading something several years ago.  Some folks were all upset because two people had been killed by sharks off Hawaii.  It was then noted that more than 40 people had drowned in the same time frame and location.  If you want to save lives, close the beaches.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
skeptic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,09:03   

I think you can refer back to what Alba2 indicated.  There's something primal about the reaction and this far precedes Jaws.  Even in cultures where the shark is reverred it attains a near diety-like or supernatural position.

  
Lou FCD



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,10:42   

I think it's just all those nasty looking teeth.

And the fact that they're (for all intents and purposes) invisible... until they eat me.

I'm not so scared I don't go to the beach or swim in the ocean, but I'd have serious doubts about taking a swim from a boat on the ocean, even if I could see the shore line.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,14:39   

Quote (khan @ June 12 2007,08:49)
Quote
just be aware that the statistics don't support the level of hysteria associated with sharks, as an order of magnitude more people are killed each year by bees, for example.


I recall reading something several years ago.  Some folks were all upset because two people had been killed by sharks off Hawaii.  It was then noted that more than 40 people had drowned in the same time frame and location.  If you want to save lives, close the beaches.

there's a very interesting addition to that story actually.

turns out that the attack you are thinking about (or one similar) happened quite some time ago (late 80's, IIRC).  There was indeed a mass hysteria that happened after that, with many islanders insisting that there be a massive hunt for all sharks around the islands (especially tiger sharks).  

In the 10 or so intervening years between that and the next fatal shark attack, biologists (OK, Ichthyologists) at the University of Hawaii had been able to conclusively show how the sharks were extremely important in maintaining populations of important food fishes around the islands (I can probably dig up the reference, if anyone wants), and started an outreach program to inform people about the importance of sharks to the local environment.

Lo and behold, after that next fatal shark attack, people who wrote in to the local papers insisting that the sharks be hunted down were actually shouted down by the now vast majority who thought they should be left alone.

It's a great story of how good science CAN change people's attitudes drastically, as well as a rare positive story from the world of conservation biology.

All too infrequent, but things like that give hope that irrational attitudes and concepts can be overcome with solid information and outreach.  Provided, of course, that a direct impact on people can be demonstrated.

Same techniques are being tried to curb the "snake roundup" folks in the SW USA, who prey on people's irrational fear of snakes in order to turn a tidy profit and wipe out vast numbers of rattlesnakes in the process.

It also reminds that because of the importance of providing a direct "connection" to personal interests when trying to sway the way someone thinks, it should be no surprise to hear the DI utilizing people like Michael Egnor in order to try and minimize the importance of the ToE wrt to things people take a direct interest in, like their health.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,14:42   

I would like to ask a question. More about you Ichy than sharks really. Do you not get the feeling of fear when viewing them whilst in the water?

I have only ever encountered sharks twice while in their habitat (I am not counting seeing them in an "aquarium" here). Both times I experienced an irational fear that was a tad uncontrolable. I know they are unlikely to atack, I had a clue how the odds stacked, yet upon seing them I was afraid. Did they not "bother" you at all?

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here. They did look cool as Hell and I loved having seen them in the wild in retrospect. Just that at the time I was scared.

  
Ichthyic



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,14:48   

Quote
And the fact that they're (for all intents and purposes) invisible... until they eat me.


hmm, let me share something with you:

I learned to scuba dive when I was about 15.

I noticed an immediate difference in "comfort" levels between when I was underwater as opposed to on top of the water...

when you are snorkeling, you can only really look down, and with low visibility, you often can't see the bottom.

that can be unnerving;  the same can be said when you are in a boat - you can't see the bottom, so it's like being in the dark - you just don't "know" what could be down there.

However, when you are UNDER water, scuba diving, all that anxiety disappears, as just like on land, you are now able to see 360 all around, just by turning your head.  No more not knowing what is beneath you.

anywho, I would recommend if you want to rid yourself of a fear of sharks, you might actually want to take up scuba diving.

sounds counterintuitive on the surface, but it really does remove an awful lot of anxiety.

I have several stories of diving with sharks I could share, if you want.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,14:53   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,14:48)
I have several stories of diving with sharks I could share, if you want.

Please do..

As for scuba diving, I'm afraid that although I always wanted to take a proper course and take it up, I waited too long.

My spinal issues would never let me do that now.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
cogzoid



Posts: 234
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,14:59   

I have some questions about sharks as well.

My girlfriend is really afraid of sharks.  We like to surf.  You can already see the problem.  Most of the time she's fine, especially if the water is clear.  Knowing that she has a chance of spotting an approaching shark helps her cope.  But, she's always sort of afraid of sharks.  And we got to brainstorming about ways to diminish attacks.  I remember some "Discovery Channel fact" about sharks having a keen sensitivity to electricity in the water.  How sensitive are they?  Can they be driven away by an annoying amount of electrical signals?  Or will it just attract them?  I'm a pretty hands-on type of guy and I told her I'd be willing to put an electrical device into her surfboard if it'd help keep her mind at ease.  I just want to make sure that I won't turn her into shark bait in the process.

Thanks.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,15:10   

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ June 12 2007,14:42)
I would like to ask a question. More about you Ichy than sharks really. Do you not get the feeling of fear when viewing them whilst in the water?

I have only ever encountered sharks twice while in their habitat (I am not counting seeing them in an "aquarium" here). Both times I experienced an irational fear that was a tad uncontrolable. I know they are unlikely to atack, I had a clue how the odds stacked, yet upon seing them I was afraid. Did they not "bother" you at all?

EDIT: Don't get me wrong here. They did look cool as Hell and I loved having seen them in the wild in retrospect. Just that at the time I was scared.

there's really not a simple answer to that.

I've been diving right next to large reef sharks and blue sharks and hadn't the slightest bit of anxiety (well, other than occasional "jack in the box" moments where they seem to appear out of nowhere right next to you).

In fact, the more time you spend with them, the more you begin to accept, even at a "deep" level, that they simply have no interest in you whatsoever.

Example:

As a first year grad student at Berkeley, I spent my first field season (3 months) at the research station Berkeley owned on the island of Moorea, which is a short hop from Tahiti in French Polynesia.  

I was there to study damselfish (I posted a paper of mine I published on the topic here a couple years back), but spent a lot of time exploring the different reef systems around the island, often in the company of the equivalent French graduate students on the other side of the Island.

One day, they invited me to come with them on a specimen collecting mission for the Ichthyology museum on Tahiti.  We were doing a deep dive (110 feet) to collect a list of fish for their collection (not live).  So we were using spears to collect the fish specimens, then stuffing them into heavy plastic bags for storage until we were done.  

An interesting side-note is that fish blood looks chartreuse green at that depth, since there is functionally no red light left (or orange, for that matter).  However, the water is so clear that even at 100 feet, it's quite bright and easy to see.

Anyway, about 15 minutes into our collections, the speared fish started to attract the local reef sharks.  We were using "paralyzer" style pole spears (which means they kind of look like a trident, but instead the points are arranged into essentially a cone, widening as you get towards the tips).  Sometimes, a speared fish will manage to get itself off of the spear, and then you have to try and chase it down.

Well, one large surgeonfish i speared managed to do just that, and so I was closely following the trail of green and not paying much attention to anything else.  I stopped once and lifted my head up, and could see that the injured fish had hidden itself inside a coral head about 20 yards further on, as soon as i had done that, I saw a movement out of the corner of my eye, and turned my head right... to find out that a 7 foot gray reef shark was doing the EXACT same thing I was, and was basically no further than 2 feet away on my right.

the shark, just like myself, was totally oblivious to anything but following that green trail.

Well, I decided the shark should have "the right of way", so to speak, and it must have too, because it pulled right in front of me and proceeded straight to the coral head.

Shortly thereafter, there was a cloud of green and fish scales, and the shark moved off.

Other than the shock of seeing the shark right next to me, when I hadn't the slightest clue it was there, I had no feelings of trepidation or anxiety.  Really, it was obvious the shark had absolutely no interest in me whatsoever.  It only wanted the fish.

Nothing like direct experience to really gain an understanding.

At the same time, while the fear factor tends to die down with experience, you also start garnering a respect for them.

Just like any large predator, they can obviously cause serious damage under the wrong circumstances.

For example, I've looked eye to eye with a 16' white shark, and not felt any fear whatsoever.  But, I was on a boat at the time.  I wouldn't go diving with a white shark when it is in a habitat where it is hunting for seals, any more than I would jump into a bear cage during feeding time.

so I'd say it is more respect, than fear.

oh, btw, here is the white shark that gave me my "chumming from the back of the Orca" moment (for those of you who remember that scene with Roy Scheider from Jaws):



seriously, that shark was 16' long, and I was sitting on the transom of the boat, swapping a lens on my camera, and this girl stuck her head about 4 feet out of the water no less than 3 feet away from me, and just looked right at me.  Then started to slide over and fall back down (that's this shot).

They appear to be quite curious.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,15:41   

Quote (cogzoid @ June 12 2007,14:59)
I have some questions about sharks as well.

My girlfriend is really afraid of sharks.  We like to surf.  You can already see the problem.  Most of the time she's fine, especially if the water is clear.  Knowing that she has a chance of spotting an approaching shark helps her cope.  But, she's always sort of afraid of sharks.  And we got to brainstorming about ways to diminish attacks.  I remember some "Discovery Channel fact" about sharks having a keen sensitivity to electricity in the water.  How sensitive are they?  Can they be driven away by an annoying amount of electrical signals?  Or will it just attract them?  I'm a pretty hands-on type of guy and I told her I'd be willing to put an electrical device into her surfboard if it'd help keep her mind at ease.  I just want to make sure that I won't turn her into shark bait in the process.

Thanks.

Most of the time she's fine, especially if the water is clear.

yes, note what I was saying in the previous post; once you can see there is nothing "in the dark" that isn't there in the light, the anxiety tends to dissipate.

There is only one way to conquer that, and that is to know exactly what kinds of sharks are in the areas you like to surf, and how likely an attack REALLY is.  99.99% of the time, there really is no significant risk, but there are times and places where it just would not be advisable to shred some tasty waves...

going back to the white shark example, they often come close to shore to hunt pinnipeds in areas where they haul out (for example, the beaches a dozen or so miles north of Santa Cruz, CA).  Since the pinnipeds are only there in numbers at a certain time period (October through March), other times of the year, there is extremely low probability you will run into a white shark in these areas.

familarize yourself with the link to george burgess' site I put in the main post; it will give you the best available information on exactly what the real risks are in your area, and hopefully, armed with the real information, you can overcome any fears you might have.

I remember some "Discovery Channel fact" about sharks having a keen sensitivity to electricity in the water.  How sensitive are they?  Can they be driven away by an annoying amount of electrical signals?  Or will it just attract them?

yes, sharks have sense organs in small pits on their face known as ampulae of lorenzini which are used to detect very small changes in electrical fields typically generated by muscles in fish.  This helps them locate prey items when they are very close to the mouth, as they no longer can see them with their eyes.  Some benthic sharks and most rays also can use this to locate prey items buried in the sand.

There has been debatable success in producing various electronic devices that utilize electrical fields to drive away sharks.  They seem to both attract AND repel.  Sometimes, they will actually attract sharks from a distance, but then when they get closer, will work to repel them.

To the best of my knowledge, most of the sharks that work by ambush or quick-strike of large prey items (makos, whites, sometimes tigers) are not much affected by these things.  However, there is some evidence to indicate they might be effective for smaller species and reef sharks.

the units i examined a few years back were pretty bulky, and mostly designed for divers, not swimmers or surfers.  Mounting one on a surfboard is a novel idea, but the weight of it might tweak the characteristics of the board too much.

things might have changed since the last time I looked, though.  I think there is a link to one or two of the product developers on the wiki page i linked to above.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
PennyBright



Posts: 78
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,16:03   

I can remember seeing sharks at the boston aquarium when I was a tiny girl - I couldn't have been more then 5 years old.   What struck me most - I can still see it in my minds eye - is how "not fish" they looked.   Very very different then anything else I've ever seen.

It wasn't frightening, exactly -- just an intense awareness of difference.  And size -- even through the distortion of the window (curving slightly along the ramp).

Hmm.... googling in another tab, I find that what I remember as the boston aquarium is now called (maybe always was) the New England Aquarium.   And they've got a webcam, on which I have just watched a shark swim past.

http://www.neaq.org/webcams/gotcam.php  - the static cam I can use with my dinky dialup connection.

http://www.neaq.org/webcams/ - the static and streaming cams.

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Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. - Shakespeare (reputedly)

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,16:08   

Okee doke.  I have a few questions...

Is that blood hanging out of her nostril looking thing?  (And what is that structure?  Since they don't breathe air, it seems like there wouldn't be much need for a nostril per se, unless that's their super duper sniffer thing that lets them smell Lou FCDs in the water from miles away... in which case it would seem that sniffers evolved quite a little while ago, seeing as how they have them on the front of their face, just like us mammal types.)

That red stuff in between her teeth is suspiciously reminiscent of the mental picture I have of my own large intestine.  Is that chum or do they always look like they just ate somebody?

What's up with that bite mark looking thing back by where I would guess her gills are?  Is that normal looking, or is that some sort of injury?

How do you know she was a she?  Are reproductive organs that noticeable on sharks?  Or is there some other obvious characteristic of sharks that identifies gender?



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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,16:17   

Quote (PennyBright @ June 12 2007,16:03)
Hmm.... googling in another tab, I find that what I remember as the boston aquarium is now called (maybe always was) the New England Aquarium.   And they've got a webcam, on which I have just watched a shark swim past.

http://www.neaq.org/webcams/gotcam.php  - the static cam I can use with my dinky dialup connection.

http://www.neaq.org/webcams/ - the static and streaming cams.

Oh, thanks for that.  I just saw a shark, too!  Creepy.

I recommend broadband if for no other reason...

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,16:28   

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 12 2007,16:08)
Okee doke.  I have a few questions...

Is that blood hanging out of her nostril looking thing?  (And what is that structure?  Since they don't breathe air, it seems like there wouldn't be much need for a nostril per se, unless that's their super duper sniffer thing that lets them smell Lou FCDs in the water from miles away... in which case it would seem that sniffers evolved quite a little while ago, seeing as how they have them on the front of their face, just like us mammal types.)

That red stuff in between her teeth is suspiciously reminiscent of the mental picture I have of my own large intestine.  Is that chum or do they always look like they just ate somebody?

What's up with that bite mark looking thing back by where I would guess her gills are?  Is that normal looking, or is that some sort of injury?

How do you know she was a she?  Are reproductive organs that noticeable on sharks?  Or is there some other obvious characteristic of sharks that identifies gender?


Is that blood hanging out of her nostril looking thing?  (And what is that structure?

possibly, she recently fed so there might have been some "backwash"

:)

you are correct; sharks have nares (nostrils).  also one of the best senses of smell you're likely to find.  can 'smell' blood at the parts per million level.

as to why they are located where they are, it's very much like why you eyes are located on the front of your head; essentially they have "stereoscopic" smell, which allows for better directional location of source.


That red stuff in between her teeth is suspiciously reminiscent of the mental picture I have of my own large intestine.  Is that chum or do they always look like they just ate somebody?


this one had indeed recently just fed, as noted above.  they don't normally look like that.

What's up with that bite mark looking thing back by where I would guess her gills are?  Is that normal looking, or is that some sort of injury?

excellent observation.  It is indeed an injury.  The critters these guys commonly feed on (elephant seals), are rather large and nasty in and of themselves, and most white sharks have scars from where their prey items have managed to get a hit or two in (typically, you will see parallel lines where the claws from the seal dragged across the skin, or puncture marks near the jaw area from bites).

some of the scars are possibly also scars from other white sharks, either from rare scuffles, or mating scars from where males have bitten them to hang on (note that this has not been observed directly in white sharks, but it has for other species).

How do you know she was a she?  Are reproductive organs that noticeable on sharks?

yes, mature males have what are known as claspers:



which are modifications of the pelvic fins which act as essentially double-jointed penises.  they only use one at a time, however.

oh, btw, yeah, sharks all have internal ferilization, though there is quite a large variability in gestation styles amongst the different species.  some are oviparous (lay eggs), some are ovoviparous (hatch egs internally, and give birth to live young), and some are essentially viviparous, much like mammals, some even with what amounts to a placental system.

IIRC, white sharks are ovoviparous, and they also exhibit what is known as "intrauterine cannibalism", meaning that the embryos tend to munch on each other in the womb.

dog-eat-dog from the get-go, basically.

here's a blurb on it:

http://www.elasmo-research.org/educati....ism.htm

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,16:48   

Quote (PennyBright @ June 12 2007,16:03)
I can remember seeing sharks at the boston aquarium when I was a tiny girl - I couldn't have been more then 5 years old.   What struck me most - I can still see it in my minds eye - is how "not fish" they looked.   Very very different then anything else I've ever seen.

Speaking as a lay person (and expecting a slapping from Ichthyic if I've got this wrong):  "Fish" is not a very helpful term in taxonomy, and while cartilaginous fish like sharks and rays and bony fish like most of the others share a common ancestor, they've been separate groups for an awfully long time.  You and I are more closely related to a mackerel than Ichthy's toothy friend is.  So it's not surprising that sharks look so different.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,17:00   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
possibly, she recently fed so there might have been some "backwash"

:)

you are correct; sharks have nares (nostrils).  also one of the best senses of smell you're likely to find.  can 'smell' blood at the parts per million level.


I thought I had heard that somewhere, and wondered how accurate that was.


Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
as to why they are located where they are, it's very much like why you eyes are located on the front of your head; essentially they have "stereoscopic" smell, which allows for better directional location of source.


Well that makes sense (no pun intended).  So is that a trait passed down from our common ancestor, or is that something that we and they evolved in parallel?  (I can't put my finger on the real biology term at the moment.  Pain killers.)

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
this one had indeed recently just fed, as noted above.  they don't normally look like that.


I see.  After thinking about it, it also makes sense seeing as how they tend not to use napkins and such.  Barbarians.


Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
excellent observation.


Thanks.  **sticks chest out proudly**

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
It is indeed an injury.  The critters these guys commonly feed on (elephant seals), are rather large and nasty in and of themselves, and most white sharks have scars from where their prey items have managed to get a hit or two in (typically, you will see parallel lines where the claws from the seal dragged across the skin, or puncture marks near the jaw area from bites).


Oww.  It's a rough world out there, ain't it?

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
some of the scars are possibly also scars from other white sharks, either from rare scuffles, or mating scars from where males have bitten them to hang on (note that this has not been observed directly in white sharks, but it has for other species).


Geez, talk about rough sex...

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
yes, mature males have what are known as claspers:



which are modifications of the pelvic fins which act as essentially double-jointed penises.  they only use one at a time, however.


Y'know, if I... nevermind.

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,16:28)
oh, btw, yeah, sharks all have internal ferilization, though there is quite a large variability in gestation styles amongst the different species.  some are oviparous (lay eggs), some are ovoviparous (hatch egs internally, and give birth to live young), and some are essentially viviparous, much like mammals, some even with what amounts to a placental system.

IIRC, white sharks are ovoviparous, and they also exhibit what is known as "intrauterine cannibalism", meaning that the embryos tend to munch on each other in the womb.

dog-eat-dog from the get-go, basically.

here's a blurb on it:


Holy cannibalism, Batman!

Again, thanks for sharing.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,17:23   

Quote (JohnW @ June 12 2007,16:48)
 
Quote (PennyBright @ June 12 2007,16:03)
I can remember seeing sharks at the boston aquarium when I was a tiny girl - I couldn't have been more then 5 years old.   What struck me most - I can still see it in my minds eye - is how "not fish" they looked.   Very very different then anything else I've ever seen.

Speaking as a lay person (and expecting a slapping from Ichthyic if I've got this wrong):  "Fish" is not a very helpful term in taxonomy, and while cartilaginous fish like sharks and rays and bony fish like most of the others share a common ancestor, they've been separate groups for an awfully long time.  You and I are more closely related to a mackerel than Ichthy's toothy friend is.  So it's not surprising that sharks look so different.

yes and no.

even ichthyologists still group both chondrichthians (cartiliginous) and osteichthians (bony fish) under the greater heading of "fish".

but, yes, they did indeed separate hundreds of millions of years ago, and while sharks really haven't changed tremendously since (and not much at all in say, the last 140 million years or so), bony fish have tremendous radiation; around 30 thousand species worth at last count.

morphologically, a typical shark and a typical bony fish do share quite a number of features still, but you indeed could make a good argument that even morphologically, a human would be far closer to a bony fish than a cartilaginous one.

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"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 12 2007,17:31   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 12 2007,17:23)
but, yes, they did indeed separate hundreds of millions of years ago, and while sharks really haven't changed tremendously since (and not much at all in say, the last 140 million years or so),

Well, when you're at the top of the food chain in your ecosystem...

"Don't mess with success" and all that.

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“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
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