Antievolution.org :: Antievolution.org Discussion Board The Critic's Resource on Antievolution

Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Miracles as an argument for theism

Pages: (6) < 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 >

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,12:52    BTW I find it inexplicably hilarious that Skeptic, on having his arse handed to him yet again, on the other thread, even to the extent of conceding that he had to give some ground to me (a miracle if ever there were one), he seeks to start the SAME shit on another thread in the hope that people will have forgotten he had his arse handed to him. Twat! Padded thread? I would suggest a tiled one. With mirrors, sinks, toilets and soap if my hint isn;t clear enough already! Louis -------------- Bye.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,13:26    First things first, there's about six books in the Bible relevant to the Babylonian exile so yes, that is much better addressed someplace else. Louis, you've gotten so convoluted that I think you've confused yourself.  If the only means that man can be said to be equal are subjective, unquantifiable measures are you really prepared to stick with the claim that men are equal in these ways.  Better yet to just back off and say that no man is equal in any real sense rather than risk making a fool of yourself or more likely wasting time in trying to justify areas that are not universally agreed upon. Now back to miracles.  If miracles really exist are the purposefully utilized by God to instill faith or are they human interpretations of supposed spiritual evens?  I for one lean towards the later.  Personally, some mornings I think it's a miracle I'm able to get out of bed.  Is that God telling me I should be thankful to be alive?  No, it's just me reflecting on how bad my back hurts. The question as to whether Jesus ever truely lived in order to die and live again can not be answered.  No proof of his non-existance is forthcoming and wouldn't persuade believers even if it did appear.  Likewise, proof or disproof of the Ressurection is also irrelevant in an objective sense.  In fact, it's not even the significance of the Ressurection that is important.  Take Lazzarus, he came back to life and no one worships him.  What is important is the message especially since the method that the message was delivered is beyond inspection. This is exactly why miracles are of no value in supporting or undermining theism.  They have no objective utility since it's not possible to attribute them directly to God and it's not even possible to prove that they actually exist.

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,13:27    Quote (EoRaptor013 @ Feb. 27 2008,12:50) Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,13:01) Raptor, *sigh*, alright go right ahead but don't say I didn't warn you. Before you go, weren't you going to show how advanced your understanding of the Bible is? Let's try a simple one: What effect did the Babylonian exile have on the development of Jewish, and ultimately Christian, theology? Please point to passages that support your view. Thanks. ETA: Is there a better thread for this discussion -- assuming there ends up being a discussion? Yeah, apoplectic there did get all high and mighty about the bible, didn't he? I'll bite, too. Since the subject of this thread is miracles, maybe apoplectic would care to enlighten those of us who are clearly scripturally challenged about the miracles of Jesus. Like, for instance, what passages in John point to the existence of a lost source, known as the Signs Gospel? What can we make of the interpretation of the miracles as "signs," and what were they signs of? Bonus points for discussion of the emphasis in Matthew and Luke on the Davidian geneology, why those two accounts might differ, and why the identification of Jesus with the house of David was significant to what groups of early Christians, and why? Or perhaps apoplectic would like to hold forth on how the pattern and order of the miracle stories in Matthew and Luke suggest that those two writers had Mark as a common source? We await your expertise, O enlightened one. Edited to add: A different thread would be fine by me as well, as I can see that skeptic would rather avoid questions rather than bestow upon us the glory of his scriptural wisdom. -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,13:32    C.J., it's quite obvious you know exactly what you're asking or you wouldn't have phrased it that manner.  But to be fair, if you're really interested in this discussion then you and I and Raptor can take this off to the side.  Otherwise, don't waste my time.

EoRaptor013 Posts: 45 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,13:32    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,14:26) First things first, there's about six books in the Bible relevant to the Babylonian exile so yes, that is much better addressed someplace else. <snip> Damn! Strategic error on my part; trying to be kind to my acquaintances here, I inadvertently gave septic a way out of answering my question! (Although his mention of six relevant books in the Bible probably demonstrates that he has no clue what I'm actually talking about.) Hint: note the word development. Oh well, I never was any good at playing chess.

EoRaptor013 Posts: 45 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,13:42    CJ, Were you the one who mentioned Bart Ehrman? I'd love to actually meet him, some day. I'm reading Misquoting Jesus right now. His Orthodox Corruption of Scripture is fascinating and revealing. Elaine Pagels's Beyond Belief is also very interesting. Oh, wait, there's a book thread, isn't there. <pushes keyboard away and runs> 0x1B

C.J.O'Brien Posts: 395 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,14:03    See you on the book thread. I've moved on to Crossan's The Historical Jesus. It's a terrific synthesis of cultural anthropology, archaeology, and exegesis. The one I picked up at the library by Ehrman is just called The New Testament. I've been looking for Misquoting Jesus, too, but it's new and so always checked out. The point is, skeptic, plenty of us are interested in and know a fair amount about scripture. High-handed attempts at intimidation on that score are just an invitation for us to pile on. -------------- The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand. --Joe G

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,14:04    *sigh*

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,14:33    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,19:26) First things first, there's about six books in the Bible relevant to the Babylonian exile so yes, that is much better addressed someplace else. Louis, you've gotten so convoluted that I think you've confused yourself.  If the only means that man can be said to be equal are subjective, unquantifiable measures are you really prepared to stick with the claim that men are equal in these ways.  Better yet to just back off and say that no man is equal in any real sense rather than risk making a fool of yourself or more likely wasting time in trying to justify areas that are not universally agreed upon. Now back to miracles.  If miracles really exist are the purposefully utilized by God to instill faith or are they human interpretations of supposed spiritual evens?  I for one lean towards the later.  Personally, some mornings I think it's a miracle I'm able to get out of bed.  Is that God telling me I should be thankful to be alive?  No, it's just me reflecting on how bad my back hurts. The question as to whether Jesus ever truely lived in order to die and live again can not be answered.  No proof of his non-existance is forthcoming and wouldn't persuade believers even if it did appear.  Likewise, proof or disproof of the Ressurection is also irrelevant in an objective sense.  In fact, it's not even the significance of the Ressurection that is important.  Take Lazzarus, he came back to life and no one worships him.  What is important is the message especially since the method that the message was delivered is beyond inspection. This is exactly why miracles are of no value in supporting or undermining theism.  They have no objective utility since it's not possible to attribute them directly to God and it's not even possible to prove that they actually exist. Translation: "I don't understand what you're saying Louis therefore you don't." Wonderful! Skeptic, occasionally it would be nice if you read what someone wrote. It might help make these threads into conversations. I explained what I meant by that statement, you can either a) accept that I meant what I said as I wrote it, or b) continue misreading and misunderstanding everyone and everything on this an other threads and simply carry on as you are bashing up straw men. Remember: your lack of understanding doesn;t equate to me bneing a fool. Oh and Skeptic, unlike you I have no fear of being wrong. Just demonstrate it rather than assert it would you. Louis -------------- Bye.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2008,15:27    Louis, I accept that you don't understand what you're saying and in all probability you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Let's make this very simple.  In the question of the equality of the value of every man, how would we address that?  First let's define the scope of value and the conditions under which this defined value is equal.  That also requires a few assumptions but in the end, viola! All men are of equal value! Or are they? Of course they're not.  All we've done is constructed an imaginary box within which lives equal man.  This box has no real relevance and your box and my box and 1000 other boxes may be completely different.  So can we say that equal value man actually exists...only in our own individual minds.  So taken in that CONTEXT there is still no such thing as equality. P.S. don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure using both the bolding and capitalization means my bat is bigger than yours. Ha!

Amadan Posts: 1337 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,03:49    I find it significant that all revealed religions seem to include miracles as part of their mythology. As I understand it, psychologists attribute this to an economy of mental processing: given a world-view that includes an actively interventionist supernatural power, the simplest explanation of counterintuitive events is to attribute them to supernatural causes. This works for both 'good' miracles ("I can see again!") and for 'bad' ones (e.g. plagues, tsunamis, and other ahem Acts of God). In the end it comes down to epistemology: are you prepared to count as true or factual a statement that is, on the available evidence, incapable of being falsified? If so, you are making an exception to the general rule of human conduct and discourse, and in my opinion you shift the burden of justification onto yourself. Not altogether facetiously, you could argue that some miracles are arguments against theism. I have read that the spontaneous appearance of particles from the quantum foam can be shown to occur. Does this not militate against the need for a Creator? There y'are, and €0.98 change. -------------- "People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011 JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,05:10    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,21:27) Louis, I accept that you don't understand what you're saying and in all probability you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Let's make this very simple.  In the question of the equality of the value of every man, how would we address that?  First let's define the scope of value and the conditions under which this defined value is equal.  That also requires a few assumptions but in the end, viola! All men are of equal value! Or are they? Of course they're not.  All we've done is constructed an imaginary box within which lives equal man.  This box has no real relevance and your box and my box and 1000 other boxes may be completely different.  So can we say that equal value man actually exists...only in our own individual minds.  So taken in that CONTEXT there is still no such thing as equality. P.S. don't quote me on this but I'm pretty sure using both the bolding and capitalization means my bat is bigger than yours. Ha! Skeptic, What am *I* disagreeing with? I made a statement with reference to your "there are other opinions out there" drivel and you have seized on your interpretation of it and are running that horse to death despite the fact that I have been clear about what I mean. Is the word "subjective" too complex for you? Do you think I am trying to priviledge one subjective idea over another (I'm not) or that I am some dogmatic egalitarian who demands all people are born equal regardless of the facts (I'm not)? As I have said so many times before, go back and read what I have actually written, not what you think I have written. It will make life so much simpler for all concerned. Incidentally I notice you are desperate to force the issue away from your own claims. Are all opinions equal Skeptic? Do people = opinions? You also noted that my disagreement with these notions is "crap", and yet you seem curiously eager to avoid explaining that, seeking as you usually do to try to distract from the fact that, equally as usual, you are merely trolling the boards and being an annoying ignoramus. Louis -------------- Bye.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,06:09    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,14:32) Otherwise, don't waste my time. Irony.  It's what's for dinner. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,07:04    Louis, the real problem is you need to go back and read what you've written.  Your first premise is wrong, i.e. that all men are equal.  Your continuing argument is unfounded as there is no connection between people and opinions and all in all it was a useless post.  Whether people are equal has no bearing on whether opinions are equal.  The fact that all opinions are not equal does not necessarily imply that people are not equal. It's all just an attempt to be cute and sound like the smartest guy in the room and in the end the whole post is drivel.  That's just the point that I'm trying to make.  Go back and try again.

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,07:13    I'd like to see this thread move back towards "Miracles as an argument for theism" before it strays too far into "Whatever 'Skeptic' decides to show his ignorance about this time". Enough de-railing of the threads, 'Skeptic'. -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,07:23    I think this board is a miracle.  Imagine all the SLoT violated around here per atheist-day.  It's amazing.  Although I'm not sure that Skeptic has actually violated any SLoT yet. -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Paul Flocken Posts: 290 Joined: Dec. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,07:58    Forgive me Lou, but I think I can see a possible answer for Louis and all men are equal. Skeptic, In the eyes of the god of hebrew literature are not all men created equal?  (Not to say that they stay equal, only that they are created equal.) eta: I promise not to digress again.   -------------- "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,08:17    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 28 2008,13:04) Louis, the real problem is you need to go back and read what you've written.  Your first premise is wrong, i.e. that all men are equal.  Your continuing argument is unfounded as there is no connection between people and opinions and all in all it was a useless post.  Whether people are equal has no bearing on whether opinions are equal.  The fact that all opinions are not equal does not necessarily imply that people are not equal. It's all just an attempt to be cute and sound like the smartest guy in the room and in the end the whole post is drivel.  That's just the point that I'm trying to make.  Go back and try again. It's not a premise, it's a light hearted throw away statement in a post about another topic. A topic incidentally that is one of your favourite concern trolls. Like I said Skeptic, I've clarified what I mean by it at least twice now. You STILL want to troll away bashing up straw men, so carry on, I can't stop you. Equally I've never said that all opinions not being equal implies anything about people Skeptic (or indeed any of the things you claim I've said in your fantasy world). In fact, as usual I've said the very opposite. The person and the opinion are not linked in any way that has to do with "validity" or " worth" in any sense. Do you know what the argumentum ad hominem is? Do you know why that fallacy works both ways? I do. Face it, you've seized on what you think is an error I've made. If you'd ever read and understood anything I've written on this a myriad other threads you'd know full well that what you think I've said is the polar opposite to what I've actually said. You've made some false equivalency as usual and are running with it because you are a troll. Not interested in discussion, just a pointless troll. Want proof? Easy: take your entire output on this thread alone as one example. In you come to the thread and what happens? Straight away you start accusing people of being idiots, not dealing with miracles and what have you as they *really* are (and yet are remarkably unforthcoming about this "reality" or answering questions) and amazingly several people mention to you that you are missing the point of what they are saying. When they try to clarify it for you you simply hand wave it away and carrry on regardless. This has been pointed out to you before by several people and every time it's been ignored. You can either start arguing with what people actually say, or you can continue arguing with the voices in your head. Either way it isn't any of us that end up looking like a moron. You should notice I am far from the only one who's point you've missed. Again. Wake up and smell the...well whatever medication it is that you desperately need to take. Louis P.S. Paul, thanks for the help but I seriously don't need it when dealing with Skeptic. He has a deep rooted habit of bashing up strawmen, the day he deals with an actual argument anyone makes is the day I fall over dead from shock. He is an infantile little troll who is only out to concern troll and annoy. It is occasionally fun to poke the muppet and see him froth but beyond that there's nothing worth bothering with. ETA: Apologies for further derailerisation. -------------- Bye.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,08:25    Quote (Amadan @ Feb. 28 2008,09:49) In the end it comes down to epistemology: are you prepared to count as true or factual a statement that is, on the available evidence, incapable of being falsified? If so, you are making an exception to the general rule of human conduct and discourse, and in my opinion you shift the burden of justification onto yourself. Bingo! It is an epistemological issue, and one that theists and believers of all stripes love to play fast and lose with. Personally I find it extremely hypocritical because in effect what they are doing is claiming one epoistemology is valid for their articles of faith and another is valid for the world around them. They preach the former but act on the latter. I've said it before and I'll say it again, believers want all the benefits of reason but none of the consequences they find unpleasant. You can see the same attitude at work in reference to their holy scriptures with the "God says X but what I think he meant was Y" interpretational shennanigans. "Miracles" are a great example of this. The variety of what a specific "miracle" "means" to various groups is enormous. Each insists it has the right "meaning". The question of how and why the claim this knowledge is an important epistemological question, the implicit claims it makes have consequences. Louis -------------- Bye.

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,08:53    Oooh Let Me Do ONe: Epistemology is so boring.  I'm much more interested in how we know things. it's all just opinions anyway?  when you get down to it I know the bible better than you anyway.   Jesus not only rose from the dead but makes flowers open up in time for pollinators to visit them.  Does it every. single. day.  It's not important at all if this is true, the meaning of the story is enough.  Therefore it means something.  You do the math.   You guys are mean.  I never said that.  When I said that I meant something different.  Its just your opinion. Ok Who Am I?  No peeking.  Trick question, maybe!  maybe not! -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,10:56    Well as much as i love getting my balls stomped on by a pointytoed high heeled boot (or in Kates case, a commando all terrain species of footwear, I thought I was on topic.  Since we are talking about miracles, i consider it a minor* miracle that it is rather hard to distinguish between FtK arguments and Skeptic arguments.  Note the *sigh* upthread.  DOES THAT QUALLIFIE FOR TEH MIRRICUL? -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,14:49    Paul, that is actually the case I was alluding to but it is debatable and subject to belief. Sorry, Louis, I guess I'm still not able to discern when you're being flippant or just plain stupid. But to put things back on topic and restate my opinion simply, I don't think miracles can be used in either sense, to support or refute theism.  Anything beyond that is just justification for that belief and I'll leave it at that so as not to get accused of derailing the thread.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,14:51    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 28 2008,14:49) Paul, that is actually the case I was alluding to but it is debatable and subject to belief. Sorry, Louis, I guess I'm still not able to discern when you're being flippant or just plain stupid. But to put things back on topic and restate my opinion simply, I don't think miracles can be used in either sense, to support or refute theism.  Anything beyond that is just justification for that belief and I'll leave it at that so as not to get accused of derailing the thread. Respectfully disagree. They are used top bolster a very week argument. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Lou FCD Posts: 5455 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,16:38    -------------- “Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas? Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,18:32    If they are used in that way I would call that a misunderstanding of theology and a lack of faith...but I think you pointed that out, didn't you?

Erasmus, FCD Posts: 6349 Joined: June 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,18:44    Quote But to put things back on topic and restate my opinion simply, I don't think miracles can be used in either sense, to support or refute theism.  Anything beyond that is just justification for that belief and I'll leave it at that so as not to get accused of derailing the thread. Let me be first back on topic. Yes, I agree with you.  Please note that this reduces the truth value of the virgin birth, the sun standing still, god's existence in general and also the sum of all the special pleadings of both testaments to be equivalent to the claim that, this very morning on my very own street, I saw the image of the baby jesus in the pattern of flies that were attacking a particularly nasty and huge piece of elephant dung. And it is also notable that your claim not only reduces claims about miracles but ANY OBSERVATIONAL CLAIM to the same ontological status. And that means that I can point at the sky and say 'LOOK, FOOL' so then you look and I slap you with the intestines of a great whale, and then you say 'What did you do, damn you' and I say 'What?'.  And you have no warrant for saying that I did any god damn thing because there is no way to tell whether or not such a thing happened or 'twas a miracle. Opinions and say-so, skeptic.  That's what your epistemology boils down to.  That's fine and dandy, if you would be satisfied with the fruits of your laboring.  But you wish to move goalposts.  That's what gets most of us bent out of shape, not only with you but with the arguments from Hoo-Doo as evidence for the existence of Satan or what-have-you.  Regular Old Dishonest God-Damned Inconsistency.  That's all. toodles -------------- You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,18:59    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 28 2008,18:32) If they are used in that way I would call that a misunderstanding of theology and a lack of faith...but I think you pointed that out, didn't you? The need for "faith" rather than "reason" is equally damning. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

EoRaptor013 Posts: 45 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,22:11    Quote (EoRaptor013 @ Feb. 27 2008,14:32)   Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 27 2008,14:26) First things first, there's about six books in the Bible relevant to the Babylonian exile so yes, that is much better addressed someplace else. <snip> Damn! Strategic error on my part; trying to be kind to my acquaintances here, I inadvertently gave septic a way out of answering my question! (Although his mention of six relevant books in the Bible probably demonstrates that he has no clue what I'm actually talking about.) Hint: note the word development. Oh well, I never was any good at playing chess. Well, I did foobar the situation by asking if another thread was more appropriate, nevertheless, I note that septic hasn't even provided a teaser answer to the questions CJ and I asked. And, of course, he hasn't shown the least sign of recognition that some of us Darwinistas might know as much, if not more, about the Bible than he does. Years to catch up, indeed.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,22:45    Sorry, Eramus, I think that's way off topic.  You've stepped beyond the question as to whether or not miracles can or should be used as proof for theism to condemnation of theism because of the claim of miracles.  At least that's how I read it, correct me if I'm wrong. Richard, I'm not sure you can have it both ways.  Either resorting to miracles to prop up faith is a sign of weakness or not needing miracles but relying on faith is a sign of weakness seems to be mutually exclusive. Raptor, no I was serious.  You want to have a serious discussion about the Bible with the hopes of learning something or teaching me (or whomever) something about the Bible then I'm all for it.  Fire up another thread and let's have at it.  But don't think that just because you read a book bashing the Bible that you know anything about what the Bible says.  From the comments I've seen on this board I'd have to rate over-all Bible literacy at a D (and that includes Ftk, Dave and Hero).

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2008,22:49    Quote (skeptic @ Feb. 28 2008,22:45) Richard, I'm not sure you can have it both ways.  Either resorting to miracles to prop up faith is a sign of weakness or not needing miracles but relying on faith is a sign of weakness seems to be mutually exclusive. false dilemma.. My point is that a logical, complete message should be enough. No miracles required. No faith required. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Pages: (6) < 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 >

Track this topic	Email this topic	Print this topic

© 2002-2009 Antievolution.org Powered by Ikonboard 3.0.2a © 2001 Ikonboard