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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 5, Return To Teh Dingbat Buffet< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Tony M Nyphot



Posts: 491
Joined: June 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,18:09   

Quote (paragwinn @ Oct. 05 2014,15:03)
Now, is that pronounced "Arr-rington" or "Air-rington"?

Err-ington?

Erring-a-ton?

Edited by stevestory on Oct. 08 2014,09:45

--------------
"I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK

"You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

  
fusilier



Posts: 252
Joined: Feb. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,18:38   

Quote (Learned Hand @ Oct. 05 2014,01:40)
In his latest screed, Barry Arrington makes a few odd comments. First, he says that "Jeffrey Shallit and I have been discussing the differences between a random string of text and a designed string of text." It's hard to see his indignant series of invective and complaints as any kind of "discussion;" he would need to substantively respond to Shallit's arguments for that. Here, for example, he is essentially conceding that Shallit is right but complains that the mathematician used a mathematical definition of "random" rather than reading his mind and using a lay definition, which Arrington finds objectionable (even though, as Frank points out, the lay definition is useless in a design-detection context). That's not a conversation, it's an angry man looking for an excuse to be angry about something.

Second, Arrington claims that as a lawyer he has some relevant expertise: "lawyers bring training in logic, reasoning and the evaluation of evidence issues to the table, and as this exchange demonstrates, that training can be useful in dissecting the ramblings of fundamentalists like Shallit."

In a word, no. I've heard this kind of posturing since law school, and it simply isn't true. Lawyers aren't automatically competent, much less experts, in "logic, reasoning and the evaluation of evidence." Law school spends surprisingly little time on those things, and an attorney only builds experience with them in practice if he uses them. Arrington doesn't seem to.

That's not a dig at his practice. Maintaining a solo practice for any length of time is a respectable accomplishment, and I do respect it. I wouldn't want to try it. But Arrington's practice seems to be small-scale bankruptcy work, and (according to his website, which like all firm websites is probably inflated) a little litigation on the side. Mom-and-pop litigation doesn't make someone an expert in "logic, reasoning and the evaluation of evidence."

The proof is in the pudding. Arrington's bitter complaint is about Shallit's use of the second definition in his dictionary. But the one he wants to use is the one that, as Frank pointed out, is useless for design detection: it assumes the absence of "aim, reason, or pattern." An expert in logic would have predicted this point, or at least have been able to respond to it. (Such an expert might also have wondered whether the fact that he created the "random" string in order to illustrate a point means that it was, in fact, "made [with] definite aim, reason, or pattern.")

There's nothing logical or reasonable about Arrington's response. Shallit made an interesting and valid point. Arrington's only response is to shriek about the definitions in his layperson's dictionary, posturing as if Shallit has made some awful faux pas, rather than responding on point and with an eye to the context of the discussion. It's just an excuse to pile invective on Shallit, without bothering to have an actual discussion.

It's not hard to see the reasoning behind Arrington's bilious complaints. An actual conversation, in which he listened to and responded to substantive points rather than endlessly complaining, would probably not end well. Shallit is, after all, an expert. Arrington does not have the training, patience, mental flexibility or temper to have an actual "discussion" about randomness with him. So he falls back on his lawyerin' credentials and relies on the results-oriented thinking of his fellow travelers to prevent anyone but the critics from pointing out that the blog-emperor is naked as well as raving.

Isn't this Phillip Johnson's claim from "Darwin on Trial?"  

IANAL, but it has always seemed to me that lawyers are experts at including or excluding evidence, according to trial rules, not at the evidence itself.

Otherwise why have expert witnesses?

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fusilier
James 2:24

  
Learned Hand



Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2014,18:54   

Yes, Johnson said more or less the same thing. He was a law professor though, and I think a fairly well-regarded one (when he stuck to his areas of legitimate expertise). It might be fair to say that law professors are actually experts at critical thinking, logic, and argumentation; it's a significant part of their job description and day-to-day practice in a way that just isn't true of a commercial practice.

Of course, even law professors fall victim to Dunning-Kruger. I've been reading some of Johnson's work for a writing project, and he's neither knowledgeable about science nor realistic about the limits of his own knowledge.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,02:50   

Sig for sale:

Quote
...using observed functional specificity as a control dummy variable on cunting info,...


KF, NSFW Typo.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,03:28   

Quote (Learned Hand @ Oct. 05 2014,18:54)
Yes, Johnson said more or less the same thing. He was a law professor though, and I think a fairly well-regarded one (when he stuck to his areas of legitimate expertise). It might be fair to say that law professors are actually experts at critical thinking, logic, and argumentation; it's a significant part of their job description and day-to-day practice in a way that just isn't true of a commercial practice.

Of course, even law professors fall victim to Dunning-Kruger. I've been reading some of Johnson's work for a writing project, and he's neither knowledgeable about science nor realistic about the limits of his own knowledge.

That made me think of this Feynman quote and,  since Louis seems to have abandoned AtBC, to 'steal' his sig.

IMHO, the Wikiquote page for Richard Feynman contains so much wisdom that creationists might do both themselves and us - a favor by reading it. And seriously chew on what they read there.

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,16:45   

Quote
I don’t know to whom you are referring, but it is an objective fact that anyone who says a string from Hamlet is “random” in any meaningful sense of that word is stupid or insane.


The Barry Arrington rational argument style at its best. If you disagree with him it is glaringly obvious that you are stupid or insane. I wonder if he ever uses that line in court.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,17:16   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Oct. 06 2014,16:45)
Quote
I don’t know to whom you are referring, but it is an objective fact that anyone who says a string from Hamlet is “random” in any meaningful sense of that word is stupid or insane.


The Barry Arrington rational argument style at its best. If you disagree with him it is glaringly obvious that you are stupid or insane. I wonder if he ever uses that line in court.

http://www.languageandlit.org/langlit....01-2014

Quote
We will do a random passage from Hamlet for commentary practice today.


Oh Barry, if you were only as remotely smart as you are angry...

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,17:35   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 06 2014,15:16)
Oh Barry, if you were only as remotely smart as you are angry...

It offends me to the soul to hear a robustious periwig-pated fellow tear a passion to tatters, to very rags.
- Shakespeare, Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 2

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 06 2014,18:06   

The death knell of an intelligent UD comment:

Quote
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

  
Learned Hand



Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,00:08   

Arrington: "If a string has absolutely no randomness, how can it be 'more random' than any other string?"

In other words, the math that proves that string has some randomness is stupid or insane!

Of course, Arrington demands that we use his lay definition of "random," which makes both strings non-random since both were created for a purpose.

But has anyone pointed out that even if we use that definition, the Shakespeare string is at least partially random? Even though Shakespeare chose the order of the words, he didn't determine their spelling. (Arrington bizarrely says that "Shakespeare carefully arranged every single letter in string #2," but that's not true; he selected the words and may have chosen how to spell a few of them, but he had little choice about how to spell "death," "die," "sleep" or "dreams.")

In other words, in order to communicate any complex thought, Shakespeare incorporated the random arrangement of letters that have come by convention to represent component concepts. A shorter excerpt, or one using a smaller lexicon, would have included fewer arrangements of letters and thus, I think, less randomness.

Of course, like Arrington I know almost nothing about the mathematics involved. I could be way off base.

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,02:55   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Oct. 06 2014,22:45)
Quote
I don’t know to whom you are referring, but it is an objective fact that anyone who says a string from Hamlet is “random” in any meaningful sense of that word is stupid or insane.


The Barry Arrington rational argument style at its best. If you disagree with him it is glaringly obvious that you are stupid or insane. I wonder if he ever uses that line in court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki.......domness

Barry's dictionary has eccentric entries for 'insane', 'stupid', 'meaningful', 'objective' and 'fact', and only one definition for 'random'. Funnily enough, Kolmogorov comes up regularly when IDers are trying to appear clever.

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SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,06:59   

Oh dear, Barry...
Quote
I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that he would consider Hamlet to be completely non-random.  ... Randomness can only be established in relation to patterns. Take any string (which Dembski calls the “candidate space”). We compare the candidate space with a selected “pattern space.” If a given candidate space violates all of the patterns in the pattern space, then the candidate space is random. If the pattern space is “meaningful English text” then obviously the candidate space (i.e., Hamlet) does not violate all of the patterns in the pattern space. It is, therefore, not random.

And if the pattern space is "meaningful Danish text...?" Then Hamlet is, according to this definition, random. Which means something can be both random and non-random at the same time.

The problem is that you have to define the pattern space in some way which avoids this problem. I think that could only be done by making assumptions about purpose (after all, Hamlet is pretty cruddy Danish), which then makes "random" relative to this definition, so the statement "Hamlet is not random" doesn't make sense without a strong qualifier.

It might be that there is another way out of this problem, but I can't see it. Anyone care to help Barry and Bill?

It might be better to define randomness in terms of a process being random, rather than the pattern: a 'random pattern' is then one produced by a random process. Mind you, this has problems too, as the string AAAAAAAA can also be produced by a random process.

I think I'll retreat into a Bayesian epistemology and equate randomness with uncertainty.

(edits to remove extra u)

Edited by Bob O'H on Oct. 07 2014,08:37

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,12:46   

Does Barry think that the text of Hamlet came to WS fully formed, a spontaneous act of genius? At best he believes that every revision was made in full cognisance of the whole.

In reality, muses don't exist and Shakespeare was as capable of incorporating the random as any artist. Some of the revisions were in-jokes based on whatever was happening in the actors' lives,  some would have been based on ad libs, some by looking out the window,  some due to a word or phrase overheard at that moment, some due to the vicissitudes of memory, and so on.

Would Barry claim that I Am The Walrus is not random in any meaningful sense? We could work back from there and find the Arrington line, that boundary at which an artwork becomes fully non-random. Ay there's the point.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,13:47   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Oct. 07 2014,12:59)
Oh dear, Barry...
 
Quote
I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that he would consider Hamlet to be completely non-random.  ... Randomness can only be established in relation to patterns. Take any string (which Dembski calls the “candidate space”). We compare the candidate space with a selected “pattern space.” If a given candidate space violates all of the patterns in the pattern space, then the candidate space is random. If the pattern space is “meaningful English text” then obviously the candidate space (i.e., Hamlet) does not violate all of the patterns in the pattern space. It is, therefore, not random.

And if the pattern space is "meaningful Danish text...?" Then Hamlet is, according to this definition, random. Which means something can be both random and non-random at the same time.

The problem is that you have to define the pattern space in some way which avoids this problem. I think that could only be done by making assumptions about purpose (after all, Hamlet is pretty cruddy Danish), which then makes "random" relative to this definition, so the statement "Hamlet is not random" doesn't make sense without a strong qualifier.

It might be that there is another way out of this problem, but I can't see it. Anyone care to help Barry and Bill?

It might be better to define randomness in terms of a process being random, rather than the pattern: a 'random pattern' is then one produced by a random process. Mind you, this has problems too, as the string AAAAAAAA can also be produced by a random process.

I think I'll retreat into a Bayesian epistemology and equate randomness with uncertainty.

(edits to remove extra u)

Looks like Barry's moving on to set theory now. A sentence is random if it is not in a particular set. Quick, Joe, help Barry out!

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SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,13:56   

Are choices from the several texts of Hamlet pre-determined, to the extent that a performer (or reader, or student, or adapter) has no discretion as to which they may use? Within those choices, must only entire sets of text be chosen, or may one mix-n-match?

How would Barry account mathematically for any variations between these?

Speaking (typing?) as a recovering lawyer, Barry is - to use a technical term from 13th Century Common Law pleadings - implebitur merda.

Edited by Amadan on Oct. 07 2014,19:57

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,14:54   

Quote (Amadan @ Oct. 07 2014,11:56)
Are choices from the several texts of Hamlet pre-determined, to the extent that a performer (or reader, or student, or adapter) has no discretion as to which they may use? Within those choices, must only entire sets of text be chosen, or may one mix-n-match?

How would Barry account mathematically for any variations between these?

Speaking (typing?) as a recovering lawyer, Barry is - to use a technical term from 13th Century Common Law pleadings - implebitur merda.

Speaking as an unrecovering Yorkshireman, Barry is - to use a technical term from 20th Century Gran rantings - as much use as a chocolate teapot.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,15:25   

Completely off topic: my brother's boss, referring to a colleague who arrived in a severely sub-meteorological state:

"Will ya look at him - face like a dropped trifle"

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"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
KevinB



Posts: 525
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,16:29   

Quote (JohnW @ Oct. 07 2014,14:54)
Quote (Amadan @ Oct. 07 2014,11:56)
Are choices from the several texts of Hamlet pre-determined, to the extent that a performer (or reader, or student, or adapter) has no discretion as to which they may use? Within those choices, must only entire sets of text be chosen, or may one mix-n-match?

How would Barry account mathematically for any variations between these?

Speaking (typing?) as a recovering lawyer, Barry is - to use a technical term from 13th Century Common Law pleadings - implebitur merda.

Speaking as an unrecovering Yorkshireman, Barry is - to use a technical term from 20th Century Gran rantings - as much use as a chocolate teapot.

Technology moves on.

People will now have to use the phrase "Less useful than a chocolate teapot."

Completely (tea)potty

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,17:25   

Quote (Driver @ Oct. 07 2014,10:46)
Ay there's the point.

You insane randomizer, you. Introducing randomness where none should abide, absolutely none!!eleventy!!

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,17:32   

Somewhere in my still-unpacked boxes, I have a perfectly legible copy of Dembski's thesis on randomness. If I were to locate it, I suspect from my recall I'd find some verbiage in that that would irritate Arrington if he encountered it from a dismissable source at the moment.

Dembski's troubles with "random" go on and on. Something relevant to the current brouhaha is that Dembski's ex cathedra pronouncements of "non-random" (or blessing, if you prefer) stand contrary to Dembski's own arguments. In another case where Dembski's discusses messages in English, he explicitly gives the sort of argument stated earlier in this thread, that certain perturbations can occur and the message can still be recognized. Jeff Shallit and I critiqued Dembski's argument on his analysis of the Gettysburg Address, but the argument is still recognizable and should give Arrington fits.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,18:13   

Joe says something:  
Quote
The sad part about this random debate is if you know how to do the calculation Jeffrey did then it is a given that you would know that sequence 2 was designed and as such shouldn’t even have been attempted to be compressed.

People whining about prior knowledge when in fact it takes prior knowledge in order to do the calculations.

Maybe it's because I havent had my morning coffee this afternoon, but I feel like there's something worth responding to but I cant wrap my head around it. I feel like an idiot because it seems so obvious, so apparent, so unrandom-like. Prior knowledge of Joe's thinking has clouded my own.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 07 2014,19:56   

Quote (paragwinn @ Oct. 07 2014,18:13)
Joe says something:      
Quote
The sad part about this random debate is if you know how to do the calculation Jeffrey did then it is a given that you would know that sequence 2 was designed and as such shouldn’t even have been attempted to be compressed.

People whining about prior knowledge when in fact it takes prior knowledge in order to do the calculations.

Maybe it's because I havent had my morning coffee this afternoon, but I feel like there's something worth responding to but I cant wrap my head around it. I feel like an idiot because it seems so obvious, so apparent, so unrandom-like. Prior knowledge of Joe's thinking has clouded my own.

If we go back to Barry Arrington deploying those two strings, here's what he says:

 
Quote

Your thesis is that the first string is less complex than the second string. Now is your chance to defend that thesis.


Arrington asked for a quantification of complexity between the two strings, and is annoyed that it was provided. Joe G.? Apparently clueless about even the context in which this discussion was happening.

Measuring complexity via compressibility is precisely what algorithmic information theory accomplishes. If Arrington or Joe G. want to provide a compressor that when applied to both strings (1) yields higher compression than Jeff's use of "compress" * and (2) shows string 2 having a smaller compressed size than string 1, they could defend *their* thesis. Until then, they are blowing smoke.

* Why? Because in algorithmic information theory the complexity of a string is uncomputable, so smaller compression results displace larger ones as estimates of complexity of a string, but a larger compression result cannot displace a smaller one as an estimate of complexity. Jeff is using standard compression tools as an empirical starting point for complexity estimation, but that is always open to someone showing *better* results. Showing *worse* results, on the other hand, says precisely nothing about complexity, even relatively.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Quack



Posts: 1961
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,02:17   

That makes a lot of sense even to poor old me... How could it be otherwise?

I read somewere that curiosity is like a prerequisite to learning; but 'they' never express any interest in learning, they just go straight to criticism and rejection as if they already know what's right.

Added in edit: How curiosity changes the brain to enhance learning

Edited by Quack on Oct. 08 2014,02:23

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Rocks have no biology.
              Robert Byers.

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,02:41   

It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent.

BA finally posts a video worth watching, though it could not be more off-topic (perhaps he is being post-modernly random?): Danny MacAskill's mountain bike traverse of the Skye ridge. I'd have grumbled like hell if I'd encountered him up there, but it's beautifully shot.

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SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,02:50   

Quote (Soapy Sam @ Oct. 08 2014,02:41)
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent.

Thanks for the new sig! I think that sums up UD watching for a lot of us.

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
k.e..



Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,09:24   

What about Dembski's random vacillations on "DA Flud" ™? When his future looked tenuous at the fundy bible school? He quickly fell over a non random bibliophile line in the vestry carpet. If he can flip flop on such matters so easily any other statements he makes are purely optional visavis  belief.   Clearly that was designed for minimum outlay and maximum return. Who say's there's no free lunch?

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,10:14   

as a general heuristic, anything that comes after "I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that ..." can pretty much be tossed in the dumpster. :-D

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,10:34   

I've seen a million Barrys. They operate on the ironclad rule that if something doesn't make sense to them, it's ipso facto wrong. They don't understand that they can be 100% wrong about something.

Long before I found PT or AtBC, I was running into locals who couldn't possibly see how evolution could work, so all the scientists must be lying or dumb or something. No other possibility....

   
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,11:58   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2014,16:34)
I've seen a million Barrys. They operate on the ironclad rule that if something doesn't make sense to them, it's ipso facto wrong. They don't understand that they can be 100% wrong about something.

Long before I found PT or AtBC, I was running into locals who couldn't possibly see how evolution could work, so all the scientists must be lying or dumb or something. No other possibility....

A fatlad in my local pub was holding forth recently - "I know for a fact evolution can't be true, 'cos no-one can explain the cuckoo". Nope. No possible evolutionary advantage to brood parasitism or egg mimicry. No sirree.

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SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 08 2014,13:10   

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 08 2014,10:14)
as a general heuristic, anything that comes after "I have communicated with Dembski, and he assures me that ..." can pretty much be tossed in the dumpster. :-D

Dembski's default seems to be thinking that whatever he looks at is the first time anyone has ever considered the topic. Like his production of one formulation of Renyi information, when the math had been published in the year of his birth. When Dembski started going on about the Gettysburg Address and "perturbational tolerance" in "No Free Lunch", he completely ignored or was ignorant of the work Shannon did on entropy of English text. It's like having an insistence on reinventing the candle.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
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