Antievolution.org - Antievolution.org Discussion Board -Topic::Uncommonly Dense Thread 5

Posted: Nov. 30 2014,08:14

We've been accused of a "literature bluff" — by bornagain77.

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You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

midwifetoad

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Posted: Nov. 30 2014,14:26

Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 30 2014,08:14)

We've been accused of a "literature bluff" — by bornagain77.

You have to admit that BA77 should be an expert on literature bluff.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Zachriel

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Joined: Sep. 2006

Posted: Nov. 30 2014,16:05

Quote (midwifetoad @ Nov. 30 2014,14:26)

Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 30 2014,08:14)

We've been accused of a "literature bluff" — by bornagain77.

You have to admit that BA77 should be an expert on literature bluff.

You do have a point.

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You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

timothya

Posts: 280
Joined: April 2013

Posted: Dec. 01 2014,06:21

Barry Arrington's website statement:

Quote

Being a Christian gives me a standard of integrity far beyond what the world requires.

admits of four possible states, by his own analysis (meaning what he says about the ethical basis of his legal practice):
1. Barry meets and exceeds the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
2. Barry meets but does not exceed the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
3. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, but does (presumably) meet the world-required standard of integrity
4. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, and also fails (presumably) to meet the world-required standard of integrity

Since we have no information about what is required of Barry in the way of integrity, we are unable to decide which category of claim he is making.

Except, of course, that we can use the evidence of UD to decide.

Note that there is no evidence that Christian standards of integrity are higher than secular standards.

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"In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Anatole France

k.e..

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Joined: May 2007

Posted: Dec. 01 2014,07:06

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 01 2014,14:21)

Barry Arrington's website statement:

Quote

Being a Christian gives me a standard of integrity far beyond what the world requires.

admits of four possible states, by his own analysis (meaning what he says about the ethical basis of his legal practice):
1. Barry meets and exceeds the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
2. Barry meets but does not exceed the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
3. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, but does (presumably) meet the world-required standard of integrity
4. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, and also fails (presumably) to meet the world-required standard of integrity

Since we have no information about what is required of Barry in the way of integrity, we are unable to decide which category of claim he is making.

Except, of course, that we can use the evidence of UD to decide.

Note that there is no evidence that Christian standards of integrity are higher than secular standards.

I see the problem bully has used the word integrity the same way he uses honesty.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his ~~clown~~ DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

midwifetoad

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Posted: Dec. 01 2014,09:25

Number 4 seems likely. Having a standard does not entail meeting or exceeding it.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Acartia_Bogart

Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

Posted: Dec. 01 2014,10:19

Quote (k.e.. @ Dec. 01 2014,07:06)

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 01 2014,14:21)

Barry Arrington's website statement:

Quote

Being a Christian gives me a standard of integrity far beyond what the world requires.

admits of four possible states, by his own analysis (meaning what he says about the ethical basis of his legal practice):
1. Barry meets and exceeds the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
2. Barry meets but does not exceed the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
3. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, but does (presumably) meet the world-required standard of integrity
4. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, and also fails (presumably) to meet the world-required standard of integrity

Since we have no information about what is required of Barry in the way of integrity, we are unable to decide which category of claim he is making.

Except, of course, that we can use the evidence of UD to decide.

Note that there is no evidence that Christian standards of integrity are higher than secular standards.

I see the problem bully has used the word integrity the same way he uses honesty.

You mean, like banning someone and then denying that he ever did that. Or like Mullings claiming that he doesn't have the "authority" to ban someone, but does have the "capability" to ban someone?

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Joined: June 2011

Posted: Dec. 01 2014,10:58

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 01 2014,11:21)

Barry Arrington's website statement:

Quote

Being a Christian gives me a standard of integrity far beyond what the world requires.

admits of four possible states, by his own analysis (meaning what he says about the ethical basis of his legal practice):
1. Barry meets and exceeds the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
2. Barry meets but does not exceed the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
3. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, but does (presumably) meet the world-required standard of integrity
4. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, and also fails (presumably) to meet the world-required standard of integrity

5. Barry has an unearthly standard. He is a Liar for Jesus*.

Hint: It's 5. Pick 5.

*Where WWJD presumes Jesus is a Republican theocrat and biblical fundamentalist reading the Bible naively in English translation as an infallibly true text, and failing to have any understanding of (or even the curiosity to understand) context.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Acartia_Bogart

Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

Posted: Dec. 01 2014,23:00

Starting at about comment 287 (or387, I got confused) Gary and BA77 started debating ID theory. Frankly, I don't have the imagination to make this shit up.

Blind leading the blind

CeilingCat

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Joined: Dec. 2007

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,00:06

fifthmonarchyman:

It seems that the probability of Shakespeare being an alien is a least .5

Bob O'H

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Posted: Dec. 02 2014,03:15

Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 02 2014,00:06)

fifthmonarchyman:

It seems that the probability of Shakespeare being an alien is a least .5

He may not be so far out (read to the end).

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Dr.GH

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Posted: Dec. 02 2014,04:11

Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 30 2014,06:14)

We've been accused of a "literature bluff" — by bornagain77.

I remember that the attack gerbil Casey accused me of this over 10 years ago.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

k.e..

Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,07:54

Quote (Dr.GH @ Dec. 02 2014,12:11)

Quote (Zachriel @ Nov. 30 2014,06:14)

We've been accused of a "literature bluff" — by bornagain77.

I remember that the attack gerbil Casey accused me of this over 10 years ago.

Is that where you bet about a mil of the Thomas Moore Foundation's money on Behe vs a stack of biology books and some guy with an oxycontin habit?

I'd like to see batshit77 bluff his way out of a bible bust in North Korea.

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his ~~clown~~ DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Acartia_Bogart

Posts: 2927
Joined: Sep. 2014

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,09:01

Quote (timothya @ Dec. 01 2014,06:21)

Barry Arrington's website statement:

Quote

Being a Christian gives me a standard of integrity far beyond what the world requires.

admits of four possible states, by his own analysis (meaning what he says about the ethical basis of his legal practice):
1. Barry meets and exceeds the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
2. Barry meets but does not exceed the Christian standard of integrity, and also (presumably) exceeds the world-required standard of integrity
3. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, but does (presumably) meet the world-required standard of integrity
4. Barry fails to meet the Christian standard of integrity, and also fails (presumably) to meet the world-required standard of integrity

Since we have no information about what is required of Barry in the way of integrity, we are unable to decide which category of claim he is making.

Except, of course, that we can use the evidence of UD to decide.

Note that there is no evidence that Christian standards of integrity are higher than secular standards.

I always thought that always paying your debts is a demonstration of integrity. I wonder what taking money from people to help them avoid paying their debts is called.

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Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,12:08

debt collectors pay pennies on the dollar for your debts, then call and mail and harrass you into giving them way more money than they paid, if possible. It should be called Debt Profiteering.

Learned Hand

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Posted: Dec. 02 2014,12:36

This has been on my reading list for a while, since hearing the NPR piece:

http://www.npr.org/2014....lection

OgreMkV

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Joined: Oct. 2009

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,13:07

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,12:08)

debt collectors pay pennies on the dollar for your debts, then call and mail and harrass you into giving them way more money than they paid, if possible. It should be called Debt Profiteering.

It's pretty trivial to get out of it, if you know the rules.

With an unscrupulous debt collector, it's possible to actually make money from debt collectors.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

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Posted: Dec. 02 2014,14:53

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 02 2014,14:07)

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,12:08)

debt collectors pay pennies on the dollar for your debts, then call and mail and harrass you into giving them way more money than they paid, if possible. It should be called Debt Profiteering.

It's pretty trivial to get out of it, if you know the rules.

With an unscrupulous debt collector, it's possible to actually make money from debt collectors.

lemme guess--you run up a $10,000 bill, default, get a collector to buy it for $1k, and you give him $2k?

Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,15:22

A piece of News that is quintessentially Dense. O'Leary par excellence:

Quote

A reader kindly writes to say that his high school guitar teacher told him that one can find the golden ratio in guitar solos that sneak into songs

Granted, this could be interesting. Or it could turn out to be trivial. In any case, it is the conclusion that showcases a special talent:

Quote

Design? Chance? Chance only if there are a zillion universes that don’t have anything like this. So the evidence for their existence is… ? Uh, right.
Chances are, today’s art establishment won’t take the golden ratio seriously unless it helps chimps fling poop at each other. That’s art too, didn’t you know? Well, it will be if some project gets funded.

See also: The multiverse: Where everything turns out to be true, except philosophy and religion
and
Human origins: The war of trivial explanations

If that isn't great journalism then Denyse O'Leary has never written a decent article in her life.

ETA: link

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

OgreMkV

Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,15:39

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,14:53)

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 02 2014,14:07)

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,12:08)

debt collectors pay pennies on the dollar for your debts, then call and mail and harrass you into giving them way more money than they paid, if possible. It should be called Debt Profiteering.

It's pretty trivial to get out of it, if you know the rules.

With an unscrupulous debt collector, it's possible to actually make money from debt collectors.

lemme guess--you run up a $10,000 bill, default, get a collector to buy it for $1k, and you give him $2k?

Naw, you send them a letter that says not to contact you except by mail, then you take them to small claims court every time they call you. Since they are breaking the Fair Debt Collections practice law, it's $1000 every time they call you (minus court costs).

For credit cards, you never have to actually pay (though it does hurt you credit score). One of the requirements of the Fair debt Collection law is that they have to produce the original agreement. Since they just by lists of names and amounts owed, they don't have that. Since they can't provide that information, you never have to pay them.

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Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,15:57

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 02 2014,16:39)

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,14:53)

Quote (OgreMkV @ Dec. 02 2014,14:07)

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 02 2014,12:08)

debt collectors pay pennies on the dollar for your debts, then call and mail and harrass you into giving them way more money than they paid, if possible. It should be called Debt Profiteering.

It's pretty trivial to get out of it, if you know the rules.

With an unscrupulous debt collector, it's possible to actually make money from debt collectors.

lemme guess--you run up a $10,000 bill, default, get a collector to buy it for $1k, and you give him $2k?

Naw, you send them a letter that says not to contact you except by mail, then you take them to small claims court every time they call you. Since they are breaking the Fair Debt Collections practice law, it's $1000 every time they call you (minus court costs).

For credit cards, you never have to actually pay (though it does hurt you credit score). One of the requirements of the Fair debt Collection law is that they have to produce the original agreement. Since they just by lists of names and amounts owed, they don't have that. Since they can't provide that information, you never have to pay them.

I didn't do any research when i moved into a certain apt complex in Durham. I later found out all the reviews were along the lines of 'OMG STAY AWAY FROM THESE PREDATORS". well, they lied me into signing a long-term lease renewal a month before i lost my job. Then when i couldn't pay, they locked me out, didn't rent my apt out for the entire rest of the contract, and then sent me a bill for all those months, which is somehow legal in NC, plus various fines and on top of that, $2000 for throwing everything i owned in the world away. and even told me the wrong day to appear in court--they got the judgement on a prior date when i didn't show.

Yeah not a surprise I developed a bit of a drinking problem for a few years.

So anyway, for the first time in my life i said 'fuck it, i don't care about the consequences, i'm not giving those criminals a dime.' and i didn't, and i learned that eventually that stuff must go away, because after 4-5 years of harrassing phone calls, it's all dried up. That was 2006 IIRC.

I later had a roommate who told me some of the tricks of the trade--he'd gone to a seminar once where a multi-millionare debt-collector explained how the system works.

Edited by stevestory on Dec. 02 2014,17:01

paragwinn

Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,19:18

Mapou explains the difference between micro- and macro-evolution:

Quote

Farmers and hunters have known about micro-evolution for thousands of years. This is how they know how to breed both animals and plants to get healthier and bigger specimens. Micro-evolution has nothing to do with Darwinian evolution because it does not involve any kind of random mutations. It’s all about controlling the expression and/or silencing of various existing genes. It is controlled by epigenetics, which is a genetic program that is used by all living species to adapt to their environments. Animals would not survive without it. To claim that this is the same process that gives us new taxa flies in the face of logic and reveals your “science” to be just a me-too religion in disguise.

Alright, farmers and hunters, no mutations to see here, move along.

expression of the boldness gene mine via epi-html.

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All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

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Joined: June 2011

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,20:31

Quote (paragwinn @ Dec. 03 2014,00:18)

expression of the boldness gene mine via epi-html.

Ha! No new information. Checkmate, Darwinist.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,21:03

Shhh. Quest is allegedly with a celebrity friend :

Quote

You can propose all the ancestors you want… even the ones that supposedly or must have existed as it HAD TO BE THE CASE OF ENDOSYMBIOSIS…This is a joke because I’m having a few drinks with one of the most respected scientists in this field… He tells me to back off… I wish I could put his name here…

Who could it be, he? One of the least respected scientists even in his own department? Shame the great man declines to make a statement.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

sparc

Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,22:52

Quote (Driver @ Dec. 02 2014,15:22)

A piece of News that is quintessentially Dense. O'Leary par excellence:

Quote

A reader kindly writes to say that his high school guitar teacher told him that one can find the golden ratio in guitar solos that sneak into songs

Granted, this could be interesting. Or it could turn out to be trivial. In any case, it is the conclusion that showcases a special talent:

Quote

Design? Chance? Chance only if there are a zillion universes that don’t have anything like this. So the evidence for their existence is… ? Uh, right.
Chances are, today’s art establishment won’t take the golden ratio seriously unless it helps chimps fling poop at each other. That’s art too, didn’t you know? Well, it will be if some project gets funded.

See also: The multiverse: Where everything turns out to be true, except philosophy and religion
and
Human origins: The war of trivial explanations

If that isn't great journalism then Denyse O'Leary has never written a decent article in her life.

ETA: link

You are laughing about poor Denyse now. But you should be aware that her writings could be the basis of a new religion - in a few hundred years. Alternatively, her articles and posts will be discussed as art. Something like Dada.

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

sparc

Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

Posted: Dec. 02 2014,23:09

Quote (Driver @ Dec. 02 2014,15:22)

A piece of News that is quintessentially Dense. O'Leary par excellence:

Quote

A reader kindly writes to say that his high school guitar teacher told him that one can find the golden ratio in guitar solos that sneak into songs

Illustrating an article that refers to guitar solos with a video still of a grand piano is just another example of the intellectual depth of Denyse's art.

Edited by sparc on Dec. 02 2014,23:10

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"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

k.e..

Posts: 5432
Joined: May 2007

Posted: Dec. 03 2014,06:53

Quote (sparc @ Dec. 03 2014,07:09)

Quote (Driver @ Dec. 02 2014,15:22)

A piece of News that is quintessentially Dense. O'Leary par excellence:

Quote

A reader kindly writes to say that his high school guitar teacher told him that one can find the golden ratio in guitar solos that sneak into songs

Illustrating an article that refers to guitar solos with a video still of a grand piano is just another example of the intellectual depth of Denyse's art.

Perhaps she likes her music quiet....

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his ~~clown~~ DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Learned Hand

Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

Posted: Dec. 03 2014,11:09

Quote

Naw, you send them a letter that says not to contact you except by mail, then you take them to small claims court every time they call you. Since they are breaking the Fair Debt Collections practice law, it's $1000 every time they call you (minus court costs).

I've heard of people trying this, but never seen any evidence that it actually works. Probably the kind of unscrupulous/small time debt collectors who would get into serious FDCPA trouble are also too unscrupulous/small time to pay such fines. But that's just a guess.

Learned Hand

Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

Posted: Dec. 03 2014,11:11

Quote

I later had a roommate who told me some of the tricks of the trade--he'd gone to a seminar once where a multi-millionare debt-collector explained how the system works.

Like a lot of predatory systems, the only way to really get ahead is to be at the top of the chain. Probably the best way to become a millionaire debt collector (maybe the only practical way) is to sell seminar tickets, strategies, and franchises to suckers.

Sorry to hear about your experience--sounds awful.

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