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  Topic: Dembski's Baptist Seminary Replacement hired, He's a Young Earth Creationist< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 16 2006,22:09   

Just when you thought it couldn't get any worse:
Quote
A Young Earth creationist will be replacing a leading intelligent design (ID) proponent as director of the Center for Theology and Science at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.

The new center will be led by Dr. Kurt Wise, who recently directed the Center for Origins Research at Bryan College, a school located in Dayton, Tennessee, home of the famous Scopes evolution trial in 1925.

This man has no time for scientists:
Quote
As a creationist who holds a master's degree and a doctorate in paleontology, Wise contends that scripture provides what is by far the best evidence for creation. "I'm very interested in the specific claims the Bible makes about science," he notes, "and I'm less interested in the secular world's response to those things."

And poor Steven Jay Gould will be spinning in his grave:
Quote
Interestingly, the new head of the Center for Theology and Science received his doctoral degree in paleontology at Harvard under the advisement of famous evolutionist Dr. Stephen Jay Gould.


There's more: Southern Baptist Seminary Appoints Creationist to Head Center for Theology and Science

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,00:36   

I take it you're surprised ...

I keep telling you guys ... we're taking over!  

But it's not too late to get off "The Darwinic"

www.dissentfromdarwin.org






(For you slow ones, that's a take off on the Titanic ... get it?)

--------------
A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,00:56   

Dave,

1. You ain't taking over. Wishful thinking on your part is not evidence.

2. A measly baptist seminary? Oh please. Get serious.

3. Reality cannot be bargained with or wished away. The evidence is in, has been for some time, and will simply never go away. Just because you don't know about it, or don't like it, it doesn't mean that evolution never happened.

4. The majority of people who identify as christian world wide disagree with you. Perhaps you should ask why. Evolutionary biology and science are not your enemies. You have been led astray. Acquire a more modern and mature faith.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,01:00   

No thanks Afdave, I value logic and reason more than ignorance and superstition :-p

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,01:20   

Oh my god!  Creationism is taking over religious institutions!  ALL IS LOST!

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,02:13   

Dawkins on Wise, an honest creationist:  
Quote
Wise stands out among young earth creationists not only for his impeccable education, but because he displays a modicum of scientific honesty and integrity. I have seen a published letter in which he comments on alleged “human bones” in Carboniferous coal deposits. If authenticated as human, these “bones” would blow the theory of evolution out of the water (incidentally giving lie to the canard that evolution is unfalsifiable and therefore unscientific: J. B. S. Haldane, asked by an overzealous Popperian what empirical finding might falsify evolution, famously growled, “Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian!”). Most creationists would not go out of their way to debunk a promising story of human remains in the Pennsylvanian Coal Measures. Yet Wise patiently and seriously examined the specimens as a trained paleontologist, and concluded unequivocally that they were “inorganically precipitated iron siderite nodules and not fossil material at all.” Unusually among the motley denizens of the “big tent” of creationism and intelligent design, he seems to accept that God needs no help from false witness.

All the more interesting, then, to read his personal testimony in In Six Days. It is actually quite moving, in a pathetic kind of way. He begins with his childhood ambition. Where other boys wanted to be astronauts or firemen, the young Kurt touchingly dreamed of getting a Ph.D. from Harvard and teaching science at a major university. He achieved the first part of his goal, but became increasingly uneasy as his scientific learning conflicted with his religious faith. When he could bear the strain no longer, he clinched the matter with a Bible and a pair of scissors. He went right through from Genesis 1 to Revelations 22, literally cutting out every verse that would have to go if the scientific worldview were true. At the end of this exercise, there was so little left of his Bible that

. . . try as I might, and even with the benefit of intact margins throughout the pages of Scripture, I found it impossible to pick up the Bible without it being rent in two. I had to make a decision between evolution and Scripture. Either the Scripture was true and evolution was wrong or evolution was true and I must toss out the Bible. . . . It was there that night that I accepted the Word of God and rejected all that would ever counter it, including evolution. With that, in great sorrow, I tossed into the fire all my dreams and hopes in science.

See what I mean about pathetic? Most revealing of all is Wise’s concluding paragraph:

Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate. Here I must stand.

Full article.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,02:29   

Thanks for that Chris. It really does give some insight on how the creos think. In the light of this, it becomes more easy to understand Afdave, Larry, Gop, Heddle, Carol, Blast etc.

It also shows it is useless to argue with them, and one can therefore understand why Lenny (and others) treats them like he does.

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,02:42   

And...and I don't have a problem with someone like that.  He accepts creationism and a young earth as a matter of faith, rather than deluding himself and lying to others about it being something that can be backed up with science.  Faith is an amazingly powerful thing, and more power to Wise.  If you believe, if you truely believe, that's the get out of jail free card, and no one can touch you.

It's only when people start to try to contort the physical world around them into their beliefs that problems start.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:00   

Exactly I used to know someone like that who was doing a PhD in phylogenetics of all things, and they didn't believe in evolution at all but they would at least admit that the science didn't back up their beliefs.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:17   

Quote
He accepts creationism and a young earth as a matter of faith, rather than deluding himself and lying to others about it being something that can be backed up with science.


Eh, what about this line?

Quote
Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young-age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture.


Scientific reasons to accept a young earth.... hmmm. I must be ignorant, I have not heard/read one.

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:21   

Guess I missed that line the first time 'round.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:25   

But, I do agree that he seems moderate and more in touch with reality than some local Trolls, for instance.

  
thurdl01



Posts: 99
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:33   

...whom I'm sure will have a difficult time understanding why they're different from Wise.

  
Renier



Posts: 276
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,03:39   

Imagine a world where all YECers are like Wise.

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:01   

OK, I must have missed something. I thought Dembski didn't actually leave Baylor until less than a year ago, and his position at the seminary was very recent. He's leaving already? Where is he going?

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:09   

Is Wise a racist?  Meaning has he ever used the term Asian American?

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:24   

Quote (Flint @ May 17 2006,10:01)
OK, I must have missed something. I thought Dembski didn't actually leave Baylor until less than a year ago, and his position at the seminary was very recent. He's leaving already? Where is he going?

Dembski left to move back to Texas. He now works at the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.  (Same difference, really).

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:34   

I believe it is Southern...and not Southwestern, no?

Anyhow, I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Kentucky branch where Dembski used to teach and Wise now does.  The biggest difference between Wise and Dembski (that I can tell) is that Wise is not dishonest nor is he trying to con or manipulate people.  Dembski makes a charade of science to justify his beliefs, whereas Wise honestly says he simply rejects much of science that conflicts with the bible.  I appreciate his honesty and the fact that he does not seem to be portraying retarded ideas as science but instead just rejects what he finds distastefull.  Not my cup of tea but it beats the con man approach that IDC takes.

I suspect many of Dembski's former students will find Wise to be a breath of fresh air.

*update, I just found this noteworthy tidbit:

Quote
In actuality, Wise asserts, science is not a product and should never have come to be understood as being "the answers," collectively, to the questions people ask. "Science is the way we find the answers to the questions people are asking," he insists. "It's a process."

And until science is taught that way in the classroom -- as a process rather than a finite product, the Christian paleontologist adds, "I don't think we have any business being in there or trying to get a creationist or an ID theory in there."


So Wise is not advocating we teach the controversy?  Hmmm...The con men of the DI will not like that.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:41   

Quote (afdave @ May 17 2006,05:36)
I take it you're surprised ...

I keep telling you guys ... we're taking over!

We're not surprised at all.  The antiscience, fundamentalist conservatives forced out all the moderates and took over the Southern Baptist Convention several years ago.  This is just one move of many that's been dragging the SBC down a long dark road back to the Dark Ages.

Kurt Wise will fit right in.

  
tacitus



Posts: 118
Joined: May 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,05:50   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ May 17 2006,10:34)
I believe it is Southern...and not Southwestern, no?

 
Quote
In actuality, Wise asserts, science is not a product and should never have come to be understood as being "the answers," collectively, to the questions people ask. "Science is the way we find the answers to the questions people are asking," he insists. "It's a process."

And until science is taught that way in the classroom -- as a process rather than a finite product, the Christian paleontologist adds, "I don't think we have any business being in there or trying to get a creationist or an ID theory in there."


So Wise is not advocating we teach the controversy?  Hmmm...The con men of the DI will not like that.

I believe this is the institution he's moving to:

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary

Regarding Wise's take on science education... don't they already teach that science is a process in schools? (What the #### does saying that science is a "finite product" mean anyway?)

What he really means is that once we manage to subvert the teaching of that pesky little thing called the scientific process, the kids will be ready to swallow ID and creationism hook, line, and sinker.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,06:14   

Quote (thurdl01 @ May 17 2006,07:42)
And...and I don't have a problem with someone like that.  He accepts creationism and a young earth as a matter of faith, rather than deluding himself and lying to others about it being something that can be backed up with science.  Faith is an amazingly powerful thing, and more power to Wise.  If you believe, if you truely believe, that's the get out of jail free card, and no one can touch you.

It's only when people start to try to contort the physical world around them into their beliefs that problems start.

Agreed. If all Wise is saying is 'I believe the Earth is young because I have to believe the bible, but I acknowledge that there's mountains of scientific evidence that makes this difficult', I find that a lot less offensive than someone who also believes in YEC but who cloaks it in a pseudoscientific disguise and lies about it.

For example:

 
Quote
Most creationists would not go out of their way to debunk a promising story of human remains in the Pennsylvanian Coal Measures. Yet Wise patiently and seriously examined the specimens as a trained paleontologist, and concluded unequivocally that they were “inorganically precipitated iron siderite nodules and not fossil material at all.” Unusually among the motley denizens of the “big tent” of creationism and intelligent design, he seems to accept that God needs no help from false witness.


This speaks fairly well of him. If he was Hovind or Dembski, he'd just make shit up or lie about this. He sounds like he at least knows enough science to know that if he claims these really were human bones, his claim would be ripped to shreds in the scientific literature for years to come and 'his side' would be made to look just that much more ignorant and foolish. And he also seems to know he'd be lying.

That said, people like Wise who've deliberately decided to turn off half their brain seldom do any meaningful research. But he could be behaving much worse.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,09:46   

Quote (afdave @ May 17 2006,05:36)
I take it you're surprised ...

I keep telling you guys ... we're taking over!  

But it's not too late to get off "The Darwinic"

www.dissentfromdarwin.org






(For you slow ones, that's a take off on the Titanic ... get it?)

Surprised that an educated person had a mid-life crisis and "got religion"? Not at all.

Dave, we're not even slightly worried about Creationists "taking over" the science, because they're not doing science. We are worried about them taking over government and banning the teaching of evolution, because that's a distinct possibility.

But scientists aren't even slightly worried about losing a scientific argument to Creationists. Creationists don't do science.

--------------
2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
Flint



Posts: 478
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,10:13   

Quote
Regarding Wise's take on science education... don't they already teach that science is a process in schools? (What the #### does saying that science is a "finite product" mean anyway?)

I think I understand this. Most science in secondary schools is presented as a laundry list of facts to be memorized. The delivery is basically "here's what science says. Memorize and regurgitate." Even the theory of evolution is presented in this manner: Here is the theory of evolution. Learn it. I know my own education never presented science as a process. It was simply a daunting mountain of what science says is true.

My reading of Wise is, he's saying that we already know what's true, scripture specifies it beyond doubt. Scripture is a "finite product", an exposition of God's Word. Science is the process by which mortal men can relate the world around us to God's Word, to know that it IS the Truth. This process is obviously only getting started, and our best guesstimates using this process have a very long way to go before we start to narrow in on God's Truth, but at least knowing the answers, we can unambiguously indentify those areas where the scientific process has gone seriously astray.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 17 2006,11:56   

Quote
(What the #### does saying that science is a "finite product" mean anyway?)


If you've ever seen a few of Carol the Zionist Clouser's posts, I think she spells it out more clearly.

It's the idea that science is extremely limited in the scope of answers it can provide.

...wheras psuedoscience based on the supernatural provides limitless answers, because you don't need to test the assumptions or implications!

grand, eh?

It still pains me whenever somebody doesn't catch that Carol is no different than Dave Scott.

reallly.

  
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