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  Topic: A Separate Thread for Gary Gaulin, As big as the poop that does not look< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2016,22:52   

Some of the latest:
uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-needs-to-do-some-more-reading/#comment-598576

And I'm a grandfather of a number 5 granddaughter!

Also ironically (or not) making great progress on summing up family life of alligators and crocodiles! This time though there are no sticks on her head it had to be her cute babies riding around on top. It has been via email project with ironically a Katie at alligatorfarm.com

Just so N.Wells knows progress is being made, we are now at:
 
Quote
Motherly alligators and crocodiles carry their well guarded hatchlings to the water. If the babies are scared then they will call and she will be quick to come to their aid. Her children even get to have have fun riding on top of her head as she teaches them what they need to know for them to succeed in life. Dad may at time get jealous of all the attention she gives them but he is usually fatherly enough to successfully learn how to become part of the family.


I'm now awaiting her response his revision, but that's more or less the shape of things to come. The pdf of the theory already has a previous version of the above where sticks on her head and scurrying into her mouth are gone. It was the result of seeking professional help. Are you happy now?

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 25 2016,23:20   

I think we are all happy you've sought professional help, Gary.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2016,17:16   

Quote
I think we are all happy you've sought professional help, Gary.


Now all you have to do, Gaulin, is show your "theory" to a professional. They will tell you to bin it and you can get on with your life and look after your family.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 26 2016,17:42   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 25 2016,22:52)
Some of the latest:
uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/larry-moran-needs-to-do-some-more-reading/#comment-598576

And I'm a grandfather of a number 5 granddaughter!

Also ironically (or not) making great progress on summing up family life of alligators and crocodiles! This time though there are no sticks on her head it had to be her cute babies riding around on top. It has been via email project with ironically a Katie at alligatorfarm.com

Just so N.Wells knows progress is being made, we are now at:
       
Quote
Motherly alligators and crocodiles carry their well guarded hatchlings to the water. If the babies are scared then they will call and she will be quick to come to their aid. Her children even get to have have fun riding on top of her head as she teaches them what they need to know for them to succeed in life. Dad may at time get jealous of all the attention she gives them but he is usually fatherly enough to successfully learn how to become part of the family.


I'm now awaiting her response his revision, but that's more or less the shape of things to come. The pdf of the theory already has a previous version of the above where sticks on her head and scurrying into her mouth are gone. It was the result of seeking professional help. Are you happy now?

So, so far, that's not progress for you, because you are showing that I was right and that you weren't.  The point under contention is your claim about
Quote
offspring who scurry into the safety of her mouth when in danger
.  I said that mother crocs can pick up their babies and carry them from the nest to the water (but the babies do not climb into or scurry into the mother's mouth).  I said that the young will sometimes climb up onto the mother and stay there while the mother wanders around, but as far as I can find out that is not a response to danger: the babies do not climb on when threatened or scurry into her mouth (the mother charges the threat and snaps at it, so any babies on board or in her mouth would likely get accidentally killed in the process).  As far I can find out she never carries the entire pod in one go or to one destination except for the initial trips from nest to pond (it wouldn't be especially surprising if they did, but I just can't find any documentation that they do that).  I agreed that mother crocodilians come to the aid of young when they give a distress call, but (once again and as far as I can find out) the young do not scurry into the mother's mouth in the face of danger. That sort of behavior is certainly possible for animals, but it is just inconsistent with how crocodiles operate.  

One moral of all this is that if you want to make assertions, then provide some documentation at the same time, rather than having to be hounded for it for ages afterward.  

You just aren't good at this.  Spend more time with your family: you, they, and the world will all be the better for it.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,00:46   

I found that their offspring do sometimes scurry back into her mouth. I was correct.

The problem with the statement was it is not normal behavior, though not getting eaten for doing so indicates that their moms are at least that motherly.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,01:32   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,00:46)
I found that their offspring do sometimes scurry back into her mouth. I was correct.

The problem with the statement was it is not normal behavior, though not getting eaten for doing so indicates that their moms are at least that motherly.

Evidence please.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,01:49   

Quote (N.Wells @ Feb. 27 2016,01:32)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,00:46)
I found that their offspring do sometimes scurry back into her mouth. I was correct.

The problem with the statement was it is not normal behavior, though not getting eaten for doing so indicates that their moms are at least that motherly.

Evidence please.

Katie wrote:

Quote
It has been seen where the babies will go back into the mothers mouth but typically after that initial time of the mother carrying the babies to the water, it does not happen.


--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,06:55   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,01:49)
     
Quote (N.Wells @ Feb. 27 2016,01:32)
     
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,00:46)
I found that their offspring do sometimes scurry back into her mouth. I was correct.

The problem with the statement was it is not normal behavior, though not getting eaten for doing so indicates that their moms are at least that motherly.

Evidence please.

Katie wrote:

     
Quote
It has been seen where the babies will go back into the mothers mouth but typically after that initial time of the mother carrying the babies to the water, it does not happen.

That infant crocs will occasionally climb all over the mother is not in dispute.  "Typically [going back into the mother's mouth] does not happen" might allow for one once in a while to clamber through the mother's open jaws, but "does not happen" means that this is not a standard response to danger, otherwise they would do it a lot, and in groups.  So, your characterization of crocodilian behavior as offspring "who scurry into the safety of her mouth when in danger" is not correct, and it is misrepresentation verging on lying to claim that your croc expert supports your assertion.

For clarity, ask your expert whether the young ever "scurry" there, and whether that ever happens in response to danger (whether the young use the mother's mouth as a refuge in times of danger), and whether multiple youngsters are ever seen in the mother's mouth together, after the initial trip from the nest.

Note that research has increasingly discovered that much crocodilian behaviour is instinctive rather than learned:
[URL=http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/charles-darwin-university-researcher-matthew-brien-finds-baby-crocodiles-develop-killer-in


stinct-within-a-week/story-fnihsrf2-1226689565097?nk=403d5a5034a38cc666322740eb5aea82-1456583157]http://www.couriermail.com.au/news....6583157[/URL]
http://www.stuff.co.nz/science....stincts
Also, parenting skills in crocodilians are reported to be instinctive.

Your larger point is still silly: you cite "even crocodiles" as supportive of the universality (or at least abundance) of parental devotion.  While it is true that female crocodilians do show parenting skills, this is not true of tortoises, lizards, and almost all snakes.  

Paternal behavior is variable.  One male can try to control reproductive access to several females, but a single clutch from one female may contain eggs fertilized by several different fathers.  Mostly, the mothers keep the fathers away from the young, who are little involved in parenting and may even eat the infants.

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1208
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,11:28   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,01:49)
Quote (N.Wells @ Feb. 27 2016,01:32)
Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,00:46)
I found that their offspring do sometimes scurry back into her mouth. I was correct.

The problem with the statement was it is not normal behavior, though not getting eaten for doing so indicates that their moms are at least that motherly.

Evidence please.

Katie wrote:

Quote
It has been seen where the babies will go back into the mothers mouth but typically after that initial time of the mother carrying the babies to the water, it does not happen.

You make a spurious claim and then scramble to justify it when taken to task.  I suppose that's another wonderful feature of real-science.  You make unsupported assertions, then do the research only if someone suggests you might be wrong.  It so much simpler that way.

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Woodbine



Posts: 1218
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,14:24   

Sadly, Gary will interpret Katie's response as evidence of his theory 'doing well in science'.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,15:28   

Quote (Woodbine @ Feb. 27 2016,14:24)
Sadly, Gary will interpret Katie's response as evidence of his theory 'doing well in science'.

Gary would also interpret her telling him he's a raving nutjob as his theory "doing well in science".  He gets that from the waitress that asks if he wants more water and the UPS guy asking for his signature, too.

All sensory input Gary experiences is interpreted as his theory "doing well in science".

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 27 2016,21:52   

I put the information to cover "motherly" that was ready to go into the text of the theory. The "fatherly" contribution is (so far) at least learning not to try eating their food or else mom gets angry, and normally does not eat the babies. That part though is under construction. Which left this:

Quote
Motherly alligators and crocodiles gently carry their well guarded hatchlings to the water. If the babies are scared then they will call and she will be quick to come to their aid and let them ride on her head and body, as they learn what they need to know to succeed in life.


It was possible to shorten the two sentences in a way that helped remove somewhat anecdotal type statements. Word flow better goes with the rest of the theory. And the first sentence leaves off with hatchlings being carried to the water, where they don't all have to rush out at once. At that moment in their life her mouth is their safety. If at first the water scares them then they can without being eaten scurry right back in. I can still include that part.  Going without it left a place it belongs but is now no longer there. The sentence it's in needed more detail to indicate exactly when the (either way) cute moment occurs.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,03:20   

Quote (Texas Teach @ Feb. 27 2016,15:28)
Quote (Woodbine @ Feb. 27 2016,14:24)
Sadly, Gary will interpret Katie's response as evidence of his theory 'doing well in science'.

Gary would also interpret her telling him he's a raving nutjob as his theory "doing well in science".  He gets that from the waitress that asks if he wants more water and the UPS guy asking for his signature, too.

All sensory input Gary experiences is interpreted as his theory "doing well in science".

What you wrote is certainly a good example of a raving nutjob in action.

Trolls like this make this whole forum a useless toilet. It's impossible to seriously discuss anything, without sadistic shitheads like you butting in.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,05:02   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 28 2016,04:20)
Quote (Texas Teach @ Feb. 27 2016,15:28)
 
Quote (Woodbine @ Feb. 27 2016,14:24)
Sadly, Gary will interpret Katie's response as evidence of his theory 'doing well in science'.

Gary would also interpret her telling him he's a raving nutjob as his theory "doing well in science".  He gets that from the waitress that asks if he wants more water and the UPS guy asking for his signature, too.

All sensory input Gary experiences is interpreted as his theory "doing well in science".

What you wrote is certainly a good example of a raving nutjob in action.

Trolls like this make this whole forum a useless toilet. It's impossible to seriously discuss anything, without sadistic shitheads like you butting in.

Which accounts for your 4500+ post count and your use of this site as your primary venue.

You're not just stupid and insane, you're contemptible.
You're getting exactly the response you're looking for.  Your own "theory" can provide no other explanation.

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,07:26   

Quote (GaryGaulin @ Feb. 27 2016,21:52)
I put the information to cover "motherly" that was ready to go into the text of the theory. The "fatherly" contribution is (so far) at least learning not to try eating their food or else mom gets angry, and normally does not eat the babies. That part though is under construction. Which left this:

   
Quote
Motherly alligators and crocodiles gently carry their well guarded hatchlings to the water. If the babies are scared then they will call and she will be quick to come to their aid and let them ride on her head and body, as they learn what they need to know to succeed in life.


It was possible to shorten the two sentences in a way that helped remove somewhat anecdotal type statements. Word flow better goes with the rest of the theory. And the first sentence leaves off with hatchlings being carried to the water, where they don't all have to rush out at once. At that moment in their life her mouth is their safety. If at first the water scares them then they can without being eaten scurry right back in. I can still include that part.  Going without it left a place it belongs but is now no longer there. The sentence it's in needed more detail to indicate exactly when the (either way) cute moment occurs.

You still have a high content of imaginary nonsense there.  

The fathers are not "learning not to eat the infants' food".  Unlike most birds, parent crocodilians do not feed their young*, so the adults, being big, are eating large prey that the babies cannot obtain, so they are not competing with the young for food.  (*The mothers alert their babies to the presence of food, but, as far as I know, do not catch food for them or rip animals up for them.)  Again, document your claims, and present arguments that are logical and which are supported by evidence.

Your text implies that mothers let babies ride on them as a result of the babies being scared are calling, which is wrong.  Babies clamber on mothers during quiet times - at times of danger mothers charge to the rescue and attack the threat.

You are implying that crocodilian babies are learning from their mother.  This would seem reasonable, except that as researchers learn more about crocodilians, it is becoming clear that more and more of crocodilian behavior is turning out to be instinctive, rather than learned, so crocodilian childhood is looking to be a lot more about growing bigger than growing smarter, which means that the picture you are painting of crocodilian life remains misleading.

"If at first the water scares them then they can without being eaten scurry right back in. I can still include that part."  Well, no.  You still haven't shown that the infants "scurry back in".  A) The mother picks them up for the trip, rather than they climb in, and B) for all but the last baby out of ten to fifty, the mother will have left to return to the nest in order to collect another baby (the mothers seem to carry their babies individually or, less commonly, in twos, not as a group).  Safety involves being near the mother (so that the mother can attack the threat), not being on the mother or in her mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....QQ9_ZmI

"in a way that helped remove somewhat anecdotal type statements".  That is truly pitiful attempt at damage control.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,07:36   

In Gary-land, instincts are learned.  Just like molecular bindings are.  
If it weren't for errors, misrepresentations and contradictions, Gary would have nothing.  (But you knew that.)

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,07:36   

Quote
Trolls like this make this whole forum a useless toilet. It's impossible to seriously discuss anything, without sadistic shitheads like you butting in.


Instead of correcting the massive mistakes and errors in your "not-a-science theory. Instead of providing evidence to back up your wild assertions. Instead of defining the terms you use in eccentric ways. Instead of listening to scientific criticisms of your inanities. Instead of correcting your appalling English usage. You call people with better knowledge and reason "shitheads".

Yet "It's all about the science".

Seek help with your obsessions, Gaulin, before they damage you and your family further.

  
NoName



Posts: 2729
Joined: Mar. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 28 2016,08:58   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Feb. 28 2016,08:36)
Quote
Trolls like this make this whole forum a useless toilet. It's impossible to seriously discuss anything, without sadistic shitheads like you butting in.


Instead of correcting the massive mistakes and errors in your "not-a-science theory. Instead of providing evidence to back up your wild assertions. Instead of defining the terms you use in eccentric ways. Instead of listening to scientific criticisms of your inanities. Instead of correcting your appalling English usage. You call people with better knowledge and reason "shitheads".

Yet "It's all about the science".

Seek help with your obsessions, Gaulin, before they damage you and your family further.

I'm pretty sure he can't even see 'before' in the rear-view mirror.
He seems to be a complete and total failure at life.  He certainly fails at anything requiring basic language skills.

  
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2016,15:34   

Quote
I'm pretty sure he can't even see 'before' in the rear-view mirror.
He seems to be a complete and total failure at life.  He certainly fails at anything requiring basic language skills.


Judging by the paucity of the recent posts it looks as though we are getting through to him that his "theory" is a waste of electrons.

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2016,16:11   

Electrons are mostly reusable, so they aren't really wasted.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2016,16:14   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Mar. 03 2016,13:34)
Quote
I'm pretty sure he can't even see 'before' in the rear-view mirror.
He seems to be a complete and total failure at life.  He certainly fails at anything requiring basic language skills.


Judging by the paucity of the recent posts it looks as though we are getting through to him that his "theory" is a waste of electrons.

Don't get your hopes up.  Gary has a habit of wandering off for a few days, usually to spout the same old nonsense elsewhere.  He'll be back sooner or later, probably with links to whoever is kicking his arse right now.


eta: He's currently wittering away on UD.  They deserve him.  He deserves them.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2016,21:53   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 03 2016,16:14)
Quote (ChemiCat @ Mar. 03 2016,13:34)
 
Quote
I'm pretty sure he can't even see 'before' in the rear-view mirror.
He seems to be a complete and total failure at life.  He certainly fails at anything requiring basic language skills.


Judging by the paucity of the recent posts it looks as though we are getting through to him that his "theory" is a waste of electrons.

Don't get your hopes up.  Gary has a habit of wandering off for a few days, usually to spout the same old nonsense elsewhere.  He'll be back sooner or later, probably with links to whoever is kicking his arse right now.


eta: He's currently wittering away on UD.  They deserve him.  He deserves them.

As you can see from comment 78 I'm having my feet warmed, and did earlier get out and did well with Methodist leaders and followers who wanted to know what all the fuss is over:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/philoso....-599103

It's usually a matter of being at the right place at the right time for what is said to live on on it's own after that. As in the days of old scientific ideas that the Methodist minded bring to life end up via SMU and other academic places in science anyway. In this case the DI did such a great job of challenging the leadership's way of reconciling science and religion the conflict received a historic amount of top level attention, which in turn makes it a very major event in church history. Especially where it ended up having a happy ending where all concerned made the right decisions then reason prevailed.

Comment 93 of the same thread shows that all this even fulfills a prophecy long ago foretold by Dire Straits:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/philoso....-599183

There is though this upcoming event, I can in a way talk to here:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/philoso....ference

It does not seem scientists would be interested in sitting through all of their discussions. But many I know would like to know what these philosophers are all together saying as it relates to science. More later..

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2016,07:04   

Quote
Don't get your hopes up.  Gary has a habit of wandering off for a few days, usually to spout the same old nonsense elsewhere.  He'll be back sooner or later, probably with links to whoever is kicking his arse right now.


You nailed it JohnW.

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2016,12:04   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Mar. 04 2016,05:04)
Quote
Don't get your hopes up.  Gary has a habit of wandering off for a few days, usually to spout the same old nonsense elsewhere.  He'll be back sooner or later, probably with links to whoever is kicking his arse right now.


You nailed it JohnW.

It's not like I was short of data points.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1100
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2016,15:17   

Not that hypocrisy isn't the rule for ID, but I do think that especially poignant is Dense's whine about bad peer review alongside VJT's and DLH's whine that anyone should apply standards to ID.

Dense:

   
Quote
It’s more a problem of what counts nowadays as peer review. But the good thing is, groups like Retraction Watch are starting to get some sunlight on the problem.


DLH, in repsonse to the ID-sounding language of the hand article:

   
Quote
How are these actions by evolutionists, Bolton, Nature, and PLOSOne any different from book burning, anti-scientific inquisition, and Lysenkoism?


Or indeed, how is it different from imposing the standards of Retraction Watch that Dense is praising?

VJT on the same paper:

   
Quote
However, the main issue in this ongoing saga is not whether the authors actually intended to allude to a “Creator,” or but the clear evidence (manifested in readers’ comments) of a bias against publishing ID-friendly views in the mainstream literature."


Why yes, there does seem to be a bias against publishing stupid evidence-free lies in science journals.  How good of VJT to notice.

Stupid unscientific garbage should never be published in journals, and any slip-up calls science as a whole into question.  Unless it's their stupid anti-science garbage.  Whenever that's kept out it's a matter of censorship.

Glen Davidson

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2016,22:28   

I'm honestly not sure what to make of the paper:  
Quote
The explicit functional link indicates that the biomechanical characteristic of tendinous connective architecture between muscles and articulations is the proper design by the Creator to perform a multitude of daily tasks in a comfortable way.

I am though more amused, than am angered by it.

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2016,09:39   

Quote
I'm honestly not sure what to make of the paper:  
Quote
The explicit functional link indicates that the biomechanical characteristic of tendinous connective architecture between muscles and articulations is the proper design by the Creator to perform a multitude of daily tasks in a comfortable way.

I am though more amused, than am angered by it.


Of course you are not sure. It sounds too much like science and ID combined. That's why your "theory" is such a mess.

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2016,23:14   

Arbor Ministries?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/philoso....-599362

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
ChemiCat



Posts: 532
Joined: Nov. 2013

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2016,03:09   

Quote
Arbor Ministries?


So what?

  
GaryGaulin



Posts: 5385
Joined: Oct. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2016,13:08   

Quote (ChemiCat @ Mar. 06 2016,03:09)
Quote
Arbor Ministries?


So what?

Any info?

--------------
The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

   
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