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  Topic: Philo 4483: Christian Faith and Science, Honest questions from Dembski's students< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,09:29   

Quote (cdanner @ Mar. 25 2010,14:04)
My, my, the rhetoric is facinating! As I have been placed in so many categories, let's begin with my "hissy." There is no malice, just observations. As far as "tone trolling" being pathetic, that is your opinion and it is not the tone that is facinating, but the unwillingness to understand another's point of view. I grant you that not all are so closed-minded, and frankly, Dr. Dembski is not closed-minded either, especially after reading his latest work. However, everyone comes to the table with preconceptions, whether you believe those come from some evolutionary extension, or from experiences from your relationship with God, and all should be able to express themselves concerning their beliefs without being "people like you."

I certainly do not mind being called "ignorant" for I probably am deficient in many areas (and I surely have been called worse). But I suppose we all have plusses and minuses that God has given us. See there, that is a statement of what I believe, but it does not require that you believe it. Perhaps it would make things easier, but I guess if I believed or felt or understood (whatever you want to call it) as you do, then it would be easier, as well. Anyway, Dr. Dembski does not seem to think in binary, and he even includes evolutionary possiblilities in his latest book. I only see what I see, and apply that to my presuppositions. Some of you might consider other options out there in this great universe that might not conform to you own preconceived notions. The Talmud states, "You do not see the world as it is. You see it as you are." I think that applys in all situations. And, believe it or not, in some form or fashion, we are all works in progress. Thanks for allowing the ramble. I appreciate the kindness in many of your replys.

So no response to the substance? Okie dokie. I'm patient, I'll wait.

The problem you face with me at least, CDanner, is not that I don't understand your (or merely another's) point of view, but that I do. You might find that this goes for quite a few people.

No one is trying to stop you expressing youself. Please stop bringing up irrelevances. Have you anything of substance to offer or will there be more complaints regarding tone, supposed (unevidenced) closemindedness and sundry accusations, and other general symptoms of your persecution complex?

Any time you're ready to deal with the serious questions, I'll be waiting. Have a super day.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,09:34   

BTW:

Aside to All: Thus far I see good datapoints for the idea that "you cannot reason someone out of what they haven't reasoned themselves into". This just is not about the science for the latest new guests.

Aside to Wes: IP addresses for our latest rash of new chums (CDanner, BJRay and whoever the other one was), would they, by any remote chance, be remarkably similar? Maybe my overactive sockpuppet gland is going haywire, but I smell morphy sockpuppetry and funster activity.

Louis

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Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,10:15   

Quote (cdanner @ Mar. 25 2010,09:04)
I appreciate the kindness in many of your replys.

You might, but as you've not actually addressed any of the specific points raised in those reply's then why should anybody think you are anything but a concern troll?

Quote
Perhaps it would make things easier, but I guess if I believed or felt or understood (whatever you want to call it) as you do, then it would be easier, as well.


Educate yourself. Then perhaps you can make for yourself some of the decisions that you've allowed Dembski etc to make for you up till now.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,10:50   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,07:34)
Aside to Wes: IP addresses for our latest rash of new chums (CDanner, BJRay and whoever the other one was), would they, by any remote chance, be remarkably similar? Maybe my overactive sockpuppet gland is going haywire, but I smell morphy sockpuppetry and funster activity.

I don't see shenanigans here, Louis.  I think they're what they claim to be - students at the East Texas School Of Jesus.  Which would account for IP-address similarity, if they're posting from the library.  Dr Dr D is giving them credit for this, remember.

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Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,10:57   

Understand your "point of view?"

Seriously?

I understand your (and Dembski's) point of view, but that's irrelevant.

Here's my point of view:  those pants you're wearing not only make your butt look fat but it looks as if you were beaten with a sack of steel washers.

What's my point of view worth?  Absolutely nothing.

Now, chew on this.  The age of the earth is 4.55 billion years old plus or minus 1%.

Unlike a "point of view" that's a verifiable, reproducible, uncontested fact.

Here's another fact.  You and I share a common ancestor with my cat.*

Got any quibbles about that?





*When I told my cat this he coughed up a hairball.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,11:08   

Jean Dixon Predicts: This Will Spiral Into Another IBIG-Style "Same Facts, Different Interpretation" Mind-Wank.

(all science so far)

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,11:13   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 25 2010,15:50)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,07:34)
Aside to Wes: IP addresses for our latest rash of new chums (CDanner, BJRay and whoever the other one was), would they, by any remote chance, be remarkably similar? Maybe my overactive sockpuppet gland is going haywire, but I smell morphy sockpuppetry and funster activity.

I don't see shenanigans here, Louis.  I think they're what they claim to be - students at the East Texas School Of Jesus.  Which would account for IP-address similarity, if they're posting from the library.  Dr Dr D is giving them credit for this, remember.

Sure, that's a good explanation too. Either way, there's fun to be had!

As for credit, credit for WHAT? I don't have a spectacularly high opinion of Dembski but surely any academic worth anything is not going to give credit for a bunch of whiny titty-baby crap and special pleading. Even Demsbki's stuff is better than that.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,11:14   

Quote (fnxtr @ Mar. 25 2010,16:08)
Jean Dixon Predicts: This Will Spiral Into Another IBIG-Style "Same Facts, Different Interpretation" Mind-Wank.

(all science so far)

There are no circumstances under which I am willing to bet against this proposition.

Louis

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Bye.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,12:14   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,11:13)
but surely any academic worth anything

I think I've identified the problem.

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,13:55   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 25 2010,17:14)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,11:13)
but surely any academic worth anything

I think I've identified the problem.

Ah. Rem acu tetigisti

Louis

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Bye.

  
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,16:40   

Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 24 2010,16:27)
 As someone who is smarter than I stated, "If you are looking for 'Mr. Brown' and you see two men walking, if the first guy is not 'Mr. Brown', it doesn't mean the second guy is 'Mr. Brown' either."

No it wouldn't.

But it MIGHT just mean that he is a yellow banana.

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,16:52   

Quote (bfish @ Mar. 25 2010,16:40)
Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 24 2010,16:27)
 As someone who is smarter than I stated, "If you are looking for 'Mr. Brown' and you see two men walking, if the first guy is not 'Mr. Brown', it doesn't mean the second guy is 'Mr. Brown' either."

No it wouldn't.

But it MIGHT just mean that he is a yellow banana.

Only if he fits perfectly in your hand.

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:02   

Speaking of looking to fit perfectly into a sock of some sort:

cdanner!

Where are you?

--------------
Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:17   

Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 25 2010,15:02)
Speaking of looking to fit perfectly into a sock of some sort:

cdanner!

Where are you?

Having established to his satisfaction that we are teh big meanys, I suspect he's done.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:22   

Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 25 2010,22:17)
Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 25 2010,15:02)
Speaking of looking to fit perfectly into a sock of some sort:

cdanner!

Where are you?

Having established to his satisfaction that we are teh big meanys, I suspect he's done.

Surely he has established that we are big meanies and that he is very concerned about it. Oh, and that it is very mean of us meanies to point out that his concern is meaningless.

;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:24   

On average, I see what you mean.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:31   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 25 2010,22:24)
On average, I see what you mean.

Oh that's the mode of discussion now is it?

Louis

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Bye.

  
ppb



Posts: 325
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:35   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,18:31)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 25 2010,22:24)
On average, I see what you mean.

Oh that's the mode of discussion now is it?

Louis

That's par for the course.

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"[A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd."
- Richard P. Feynman

  
Tom Ames



Posts: 238
Joined: Dec. 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,17:51   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,15:31)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 25 2010,22:24)
On average, I see what you mean.

Oh that's the mode of discussion now is it?

Louis

If there was any residual normality in this thread, you deviates have made it insignificant.

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-Tom Ames

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2333
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,18:02   

Quote (Tom Ames @ Mar. 25 2010,15:51)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,15:31)
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 25 2010,22:24)
On average, I see what you mean.

Oh that's the mode of discussion now is it?

Louis

If there was any residual normality in this thread, you deviates have made it insignificant.

I find the standard devients are all posting today.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,19:17   

Quote (snorkild @ Mar. 24 2010,18:03)
Is cdanner one of the disciples from UD?

Is the course requirement #4 fulfilled if he produces 10 posts of bitching and moaning, or is some minimum of factual content expected?

He sure seems to be in love with that lying, dishonest, cowardly blowhard Dr Dr D., that's for sure.  Would "apostle" be too strong?  I don't think there is any content requirement for the posts, so the "concern troll is concerned" style of posting is just as good as the whining ones.  Perhaps someday (maybe in a later post I haven't read yet) he will actually drop the pearl-clutching, get over the vapors, and actually present some evidence (I mean the real thing, not the "Dr D wrote a pop-culture book about it once, want to read it?"

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,19:47   

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Mar. 25 2010,08:27)
Quote (cdanner @ Mar. 24 2010,16:55)
I wonder why? Could it be that, after hearing the man speak, and looking into his eyes, and turning my preconceived notions in his direction, that he makes perfect sense?

Perhaps you should get a job at an airport, and look into the eyes of potential travelers. As you are so good at determining truthiness from a simple look in the eyes you'll be perfect for the task of spotting terrorists.

Well, it worked for Bush the Younger and Putin, wasn't it.  He sure turned out to be so peaceful and nice...

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,21:12   

Quote (cdanner @ Mar. 24 2010,19:01)
I am not a very learned person, but I do know that name calling and having to belittle a person simply because they believe in something different does not accomplish a think.

Does it accomplish a poof?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,21:23   

Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 24 2010,19:27)
As someone who is smarter than I stated, "If you are looking for 'Mr. Brown' and you see two men walking, if the first guy is not 'Mr. Brown', it doesn't mean the second guy is 'Mr. Brown' either."

So, if guy one is Mr. Smelly, does that make guy two Mr. Brown?

--------------
Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 25 2010,21:37   

OK, let's play nice with the chew toys... I mean nice Christian person.

Let me just ask a few questions to get started and then you can ask me some.  We can discuss our answers and why.  Fair enough?  Let's begin.

1) What specific religion do you belong to?
2) Why?
3) Have you studied in depth (i.e. read their holy book or more than one learned commentary regarding the religion that is NOT written by someone of your own faith) any other religion?
4) Have you taken genetics? statistics? historical geology? comparative anatomy?
5) Have you read your holy book cover to cover?  How many times?  In what translations?
6) Do you have any evidence that any (you pick) creation story is factual (by this I mean, external from the story itself)?
7) Have you ever done as your doctor prescribed an taken an entire course of anti-biotics?

That should get us started.  

Thanks
Ogre

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Cubist



Posts: 558
Joined: Oct. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2010,00:42   

cdanner, if you look on page two of this thread, you'll see a post of mine (timestamped Mar. 16 2010,04:32) in which I had some highly relevant, substantive questions for a gent named bjray. Alas, bjray never saw fit to address those questions -- heck, he never even acknowledged I'd asked him anything! This, in spite of the fact that bjray claimed he was interested in discussing science.
Hmmm.
It's worth noting that this is a pattern of behavior which has been seen over and over and over and over and over and bleeding over again: It starts with J. Random Creationist posting a message about how he's interested in science and how awful it is that 'evolutionists' just don't want to judge Creationism on its merits and yada yada yada. This message yields several replies, some of which seriously address various aspects of Creationism; others of which blatantly sneer at J. Random Creationist and/or Creationism in general and/or both; and still others of which contain both blatant sneering and serious responses which directly address the question of Creationism's scientific validity. After these replies are posted, J. Random Creationist complains about the mockery while declining to address the serious critiques of Creationism.
See any problems there, cdanner?
Do you see how that sort of behavioral pattern might -- particularly if it's repeatedly observed! -- inspire people to look upon Creationists' you evolutionists are all big meanies an' you don't wanna discuss nothin' serious-like protestations with decidedly jaundiced eyes?
Speaking entirely for myself, cdanner, I think you're Just Another Whining Creationist. Because thus far, your behavior exactly and precisely matches the "ignore substantive responses and whine about the mockery" pattern which I've seen so goddamn many times before, from so goddamn many other Creationists before you. Your stereotype-matching behavior does not surprise me, any more than the Sun rising in the East surprises me. At this point, cdanner, I honestly believe you have no intention whatsoever of actually engaging in substantive discussion of anything that impinges upon Creationism; rather, I believe you will (if you choose to stick around, which is far from certain) continue to post whiny, oh-woe-look-at-how-poor-innocent-truthseekers-are-being-abused you evolutionists is all big meanies screeds which conspicuously fail to address any substantive points in the responses to you.
I don't like to think that of you, cdanner -- given my druthers, I'd prefer not to have that sort of opinion of anybody -- but your behavior here supports and justifies that opinion. You have complained about how mean/prejudiced/whatever those mean ol' evolutionists are, and you have conspicuously failed to participate in anything resembling a substantive discussion of scientific issue related to Creationism. So when the rubber hits the road... no, cdanner, I do not care to entertain the notion that the Sun might rise in the West -- sorry, I mean "that you might actually be the innocent truthseeker and willing participant in discussions of science that you present yourself as".
I don't expect you to care about what I think of you, cdanner. Still and all, if I actually am wrong about you, it's at least possible that you might care... and should that be the case, there's something you could do to sway my opinion. Scroll back to page 6 of this thread, cdanner, there's another post of mine (timestamped Mar. 25 2010,02:49), this one addressed to you. This post has some questions about the concept of Complex Specified Information, which I hoped you might be able to answer. Perhaps you might want to take them up at your earliest convenience?
cdanner, we shall see if you ever actually elect to answer my questions, or if you will, instead, follow in the well-trodden footsteps of bjray ancd, well, bloody near every Creationist who ever lived.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2010,03:51   

Quote (Dr.GH @ Mar. 25 2010,23:02)
Quote (Tom Ames @ Mar. 25 2010,15:51)
Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,15:31)
 
Quote (Doc Bill @ Mar. 25 2010,22:24)
On average, I see what you mean.

Oh that's the mode of discussion now is it?

Louis

If there was any residual normality in this thread, you deviates have made it insignificant.

I find the standard devients are all posting today.

I take exception to that, sir! There is nothing standard about my deviancy!

Our local supermarket has organised the beer into pints and quarts, on different aisles, over different floors. Imagine my joy to find myself in the top quart aisle and discovering they had my favourite beer.

I'll get me coat.

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2010,09:56   

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,17:22)

Quote (Louis @ Mar. 25 2010,17:22)
Quote (JohnW @ Mar. 25 2010,22:17)
Quote (FrankH @ Mar. 25 2010,15:02)
Speaking of looking to fit perfectly into a sock of some sort:

cdanner!

Where are you?

Having established to his satisfaction that we are teh big meanys, I suspect he's done.

Surely he has established that we are big meanies and that he is very concerned about it. Oh, and that it is very mean of us meanies to point out that his concern is meaningless.

;-)

Louis





Meanie evolutionists

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we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2010,10:32   

Quote
I take exception to that, sir! There is nothing standard about my deviancy!

Our local supermarket has organised the beer into pints and quarts, on different aisles, over different floors. Imagine my joy to find myself in the top quart aisle and discovering they had my favourite beer.

I'll get me coat.

Louis  

Pints and quarts? I thought Britain used liters. ;)

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 26 2010,12:47   

Quote (Henry J @ Mar. 26 2010,15:32)
Quote
I take exception to that, sir! There is nothing standard about my deviancy!

Our local supermarket has organised the beer into pints and quarts, on different aisles, over different floors. Imagine my joy to find myself in the top quart aisle and discovering they had my favourite beer.

I'll get me coat.

Louis  

Pints and quarts? I thought Britain used liters. ;)

I use litres, but I translated for you Americans.

See, I'm nice like that.

Louis

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Bye.

  
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