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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > AFDave Wants You to Prove Evolution to Him

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Flint Posts: 478 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 02 2006,07:27    Quote BTW - does anyone know of a good online chart or tree showing current biblical understanding... There are probably as many of these as there are religious sects - well over 10,000. Your error lies in the misuse of the word "understanding." Anyone who understood anything wouldn't bother with any such exercise.

normdoering Posts: 287 Joined: July 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 05 2006,15:20    Quote (Faid @ April 28 2006,07:04) I didn't know there were actually any people who thought the process of evolution was a struggle to be crowned "King of All Life". That's why the  bacteria beat us to the title; "King of all Life," because you didn't even know you were  playing -- and even the creationists who thought we were playing got the rules wrong. Next time -- PAY ATTENTION!

Paul Flocken Posts: 290 Joined: Dec. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,16:41    Quote (afdave @ April 29 2006,22:02) Thanks.  I'll check it out. Here's a question for people with er ... more of an Evolutionary mindset ... How many cultures around the world practice a 7 day week and why?   I honestly have not studied this, but would like to know ... Of course I know why Western Society does, but I'm curious about other cultures ... Dave would it surprise you to know that the seven day week occurs because there are seven planets visible to the naked eye.  The ancients associated a planet with each day of the week.  If you spoke any romance language (French, Spanish, Italien) this would be much more obvious to you.  The seven day week predated the abrahamic tradition which borrowed the concept from pagan babylon. Google:  days of the week named after planets Edit:  Ok so I didn't read far enough before posting.  Aardvark and Faid already hit this. PS Dave, the key to a good google search is using more relevant words than just one or two. -------------- "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,17:21    Well, well ... the old 'Prove Evolution to AFD' thread came back from the dead ... Don't tell Wesley!  He thinks I have too many balls in the air already! Yes.  I knew about the planet thing.  I actually speak quite a bit of Spanish and Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed). I'm not sure which is the older tradition ... the planet thing or the 'God made the world in seven days' thing.  Nice item for study some time though. I've pretty much got Google down pat ... sometimes I just like to hear what links you guys refer me to, but thanks for the tip! -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,17:26    Quote (afdave @ May 18 2006,22:21) Well, well ... the old 'Prove Evolution to AFD' thread came back from the dead ... Don't tell Wesley!  He thinks I have too many balls in the air already! Yes.  I knew about the planet thing.  I actually speak quite a bit of Spanish and Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed). I'm not sure which is the older tradition ... the planet thing or the 'God made the world in seven days' thing.  Nice item for study some time though. I've pretty much got Google down pat ... sometimes I just like to hear what links you guys refer me to, but thanks for the tip! Uh, Dave?  If you knew how to google, you'd have found out that Portuguese is not Spanish and French mixed.   Quote Portuguese developed in the Western Iberian Peninsula from Latin brought there by Roman soldiers and colonists starting in the 3rd century BC. The language began to diverge from other Romance languages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the barbarian invasions in the 5th century, and started to be used in written documents around the 9th century. By the 15th century it had become a mature language with a rich literature. In all aspects — phonology, morphology, lexicon and syntax — Portuguese is essentially the result of an organic evolution of Vulgar Latin, with relatively minor influences from other languages. from a source that even you can probably find. Idiot. And from a historical point of view, the Babylonians (who developed the seven day week) predate the Jewish scriptures by a thousand years or so. Do try to learn something from all that 'googling' you do, won't you?  Thanks.

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,17:31    ####, you beat me to it.  I was kinda hoping he would expound on the history of the portuguese language for us. oh well.

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,17:35    Quote (sir_toejam @ May 18 2006,22:31) ####, you beat me to it.  I was kinda hoping he would expound on the history of the portuguese language for us. oh well. My apologies, sir.  'twas a moment of weekness on my part....

sir_toejam Posts: 846 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 18 2006,18:27    meh, no worries. I'm actually hoping Dave will entertain my request to show us his thinking on other issues anyway. Dave - take a gander at the discussion between Steve and I over on the other thread for background. once you have looked at that: could you link to somewhere where you have threads or written discussion documenting your thoughts in an area where you have some expertise? you said you had an engineering degree.  Is there somewhere you have discussed a topic in engineering where your knowledge base is more detailed than on the topic of ToE? you could show us you actually DO have the capacity for rational argument, at least with topics you have familiarity with. humor me?

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,00:26    Quote Uh, Dave?  If you knew how to google, you'd have found out that Portuguese is not Spanish and French mixed.   Quote   Portuguese developed in the Western Iberian Peninsula from Latin brought there by Roman soldiers and colonists starting in the 3rd century BC. The language began to diverge from other Romance languages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the barbarian invasions in the 5th century, and started to be used in written documents around the 9th century. By the 15th century it had become a mature language with a rich literature. In all aspects — phonology, morphology, lexicon and syntax — Portuguese is essentially the result of an organic evolution of Vulgar Latin, with relatively minor influences from other languages. from a source that even you can probably find. Idiot. Oh really?  How much money do you want to risk that I'm wrong?  Here's the specific statement that I am defending: 1)  AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. 2)  Rilke and Toejam say I am wrong How much are you willing to bet?   (You need a Paypal account to be eligible) -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

normdoering Posts: 287 Joined: July 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,00:57    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,05:26) Quote Uh, Dave?  If you knew how to google, you'd have found out that Portuguese is not Spanish and French mixed.   Quote   Portuguese developed in the Western Iberian Peninsula from Latin brought there by Roman soldiers and colonists starting in the 3rd century BC. The language began to diverge from other Romance languages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the barbarian invasions in the 5th century, and started to be used in written documents around the 9th century. By the 15th century it had become a mature language with a rich literature. In all aspects — phonology, morphology, lexicon and syntax — Portuguese is essentially the result of an organic evolution of Vulgar Latin, with relatively minor influences from other languages. from a source that even you can probably find. Idiot. Oh really?  How much money do you want to risk that I'm wrong?  Here's the specific statement that I am defending: 1)  AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. 2)  Rilke and Toejam say I am wrong How much are you willing to bet? I don't think either side is completely wrong -- but I'm not willing to bet. Spanish and Portuguese are certainly very close relatives (relative to any other languages) but you probably can't really set a year for the split, as Dave does by saying it happened in 1143 AD. When it is said that Portuguese developed from Latin brought there by Roman soldiers and colonists and diverged from other Romance languages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire ... well, check to see if that doesn't also describe Spanish -- if not also most other European languages. You think defining when species finally split apart is hard when you've got ring species and jackasses? I'm sure defining language species is even harder.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,02:24    Quote (Faid @ May 01 2006,08:41) Try to conduct an "experiment" on yourself and the way you think: You previously thought (and correct me if I'm wrong, which is quite possible) that the fact all these cultures have a seven-day week is a good argument for it's divine origin. Now that you were pointed to all the historical evidence that show the concept of a seven day week is of human devise, has your belief in its divine roots been questioned in your mind, even in the slightest? Can you think of any argument, or proof, empirical data, or even supernatural revelation, that would do that to any aspect of your beliefs? Quote I'm not sure which is the older tradition ... the planet thing or the 'God made the world in seven days' thing.  Nice item for study some time though. Well, it seems my old question was finally answered. Thanks Dave. -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,03:13    Dave, this was your statement: Quote Portuguese (which of course is Spanish and French mixed). As I pointed out in my citation, you are blatantly, embarrassingly, painfully wrong. But like most fundies, your ego doesn't permit you to admit that you could ever be wrong.  So you lie about it by claiming something different: Quote AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. So now you are lying about what you said because you're not man enough to admit to being mistaken. You're hilarious Dave.  Dumb, but hilarious.  You're not related to Dave Scot "Springer-Spaniel", are you?

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,03:26    Oh, and Dave, when you wrote "googling", perhaps you meant "goggling"?  It would explain why you got the break-out of Portugal wrong. Quote Portugal traces its national origin to 24 June 1128 with the Battle of São Mamede. Afonso proclaimed himself first Prince of Portugal and in 1139 the first King of Portugal. By 1143, with the assistance of a representant of the Holy See at the conference of Zamora, Portugal was formally recognized as independent, with the prince recognized as Dux Portucalensis. In 1179, Afonso I was declared, by the Pope, as king. After the Battle of São Mamede, the first capital of Portugal was Guimarães, from which the first king ruled. Later, when Portugal was already officially independent, he ruled from Coimbra. also from Wikipedia.  Henry was already dead. Admitting that you made a stupid statement is quite easy Dave; and it would demonstrate that you have some shred of intellectual integrity. But if you really wish to continue to dig this particular grave for yourself, you go right ahead. Oh, and remember: the seven day week preceeds the Bible by a thousand years or so.  And remember the Jews went into exile in... Babylon - where that week was invented. It's fairly clear what a rational person would conclude from that.  Let's see what you conclude, shall we?

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,03:37    Rilke-- You keep saying I'm wrong, but you haven't put your money where your mouth is.  Just tell me how much money it's going to be ... $500 says I can prove my statement (my later, more specific statement).  Are you willing to put up $500 and prove me wrong? You know the wager ... it's as clear as a bell ... Now are you going to back up your claim?  Or are you going to retract it and apologize?  Or shall I embarrass you publicly in front of all your friends? Your choice, sweetie. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

incorygible Posts: 374 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,04:02    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,05:26) Oh really?  How much money do you want to risk that I'm wrong?  Here's the specific statement that I am defending: 1)  AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. 2)  Rilke and Toejam say I am wrong How much are you willing to bet?   (You need a Paypal account to be eligible) That depends.  Are we allowed to use the same "arguments" and "logic" to establish the complete and utter independence of the Portuguese and French languages as you use in the apes/humans thread? After all, while French and Portuguese share many, many letter combinations, I can show you that the word "idiot", common to both languages, is also common to German and English. Since no one in his right mind would argue that these languages are related to French and Portuguese, it is obvious that any and all shared letter combinations (and word meanings, grammar, etc.) could arise independently in each language, and there is absolutely no reason to infer common descent ("common design" theory is just as good!. When do I get my money?

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,04:07    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,08:37) Rilke-- You keep saying I'm wrong, but you haven't put your money where your mouth is.  Just tell me how much money it's going to be ... $500 says I can prove my statement (my later, more specific statement).  Are you willing to put up $500 and prove me wrong? You know the wager ... it's as clear as a bell ... Now are you going to back up your claim?  Or are you going to retract it and apologize?  Or shall I embarrass you publicly in front of all your friends? Your choice, sweetie. Embarass me?  When you're the one who made the bone-headed statement? To paraphrase out local village idiot: what planet are you on, my child? Besides, you haven't addressed the fact that you're changing your story again. Why should I take your money when you can't even tell the truth about what you've said?  No statement you've made to date can be considered reliable. Admit it: you're just a sixteen-year old who can't get a date.

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,04:17    Hmm. Quote Main article: History of Portuguese Portuguese developed in the Western Iberian Peninsula from Latin brought there by Roman soldiers and colonists starting in the 3rd century BC. The language began to diverge from other Romance languages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire and the barbarian invasions in the 5th century, and started to be used in written documents around the 9th century. By the 15th century it had become a mature language with a rich literature. In all aspects — phonology, morphology, lexicon and syntax — Portuguese is essentially the result of an organic evolution of Vulgar Latin, with relatively minor influences from other languages. ...Oh, what do I care. Fine Dave, Wikipedia is wrong (won't be the first time) and you're right (that, however)... So, how 'bout proving that "young earth" story now? incorygible:       -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,04:40    Rilke-- Here's my statement again ...   Quote AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. In short, Portuguese is a mixture of Spanish and French, which is what I said at first. Are you going to challenge me or not? -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

Faid Posts: 1143 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,05:41    Um... Dave... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Portuguese_language http://www.instituto-camoes.pt/cvc/literatura/eng/LINGUA.HTM http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Portuguese/Portuguese.html http://www.linguaportuguesa.ufrn.br/en_2.php http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html ...There doesn't seem to be much dispute over this issue. Unless you know something the rest of the world does not. BTW, I think that challenging people on their views in internet debates with money bets is kinda lame. Even Dembski just wagered a bottle of scotch (not that he ever delivered). Just FYI   -------------- A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty: "The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information" "...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,05:57    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,09:40) Rilke-- Here's my statement again ...   Quote AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. In short, Portuguese is a mixture of Spanish and French, which is what I said at first. Are you going to challenge me or not? Are you repeating your factually incorrect statement for some reason, Dave?  Argument ad nauseum, perhaps? You should save your money for your goggling habit; you would lose it.  is that what guys do?  Assuage their loss of manhood by offering money?  Tacky.

Rilke's Granddaughter Posts: 311 Joined: Jan. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,06:04    I really should take your money, but I know you need the pocket change: Quote 1137   Moors attack Leiria and Dom Afonso Henriques fails to conquer Lisbon from Moors 1139 26th July - Battle of Ourique - Dom Afonso Henriques defeats on the Almoravids army led by Ali ibn Yusuf and four other Emirs - Dom Henriques Afonso declares himself King of Portugal and its independence from the Kingdom of León and Castile 1139 1st November - Dom Afonso Henriques (Afonso I), crowned King of Portugal in Bragança (1139 - 1185) - Reign of House of Burgundy 1140 The Knights "Hospitalier" receive lands and privileges from Dom Afonso Henriques 1140 Tournament and Armistice of Arcos de Valdevez - Dom Afonso Henriques takes possession of southern Galicia which causes Don Alfonso VII to invade Portugal. After a joust between the Knights the Portuguese win and are granted part of southern Galicia 1142 Leiria receives town rights and privileges from Dom Afonso Henriques 1143 Treaty of Zamora - Don Alfonso VII of Castile and León recognises the Kingdom of Portugal and both Kings agree to a peace period 1143 Afonso I declares his allegiance with a payment of money to Pope Innocent II and places his kingdom under the protection of Saint Peter and the Holy See 1144 The Muridun (Disciples) led by Abul-Qasim Ahmad ibn al-Husayn al-Quasi rebel in the Algarve against power of Seville - Ibn al-Mundhir takes Silves with the support of the Governor of Beja, Sidray ibn Wazir. Ibn al-Mubndhir and Sidray ibn Wazir take Monchique castle - and with only a further 20 men they take by surprise the castle of Mértola - the Taifas of Mértola and Silves return to independence from Seville 1144 The Order of Cistercians is installed at Tarouca 1145 Moor army retakes Leiria 1145 Taifa of Badajoz becomes independent and conquers the Taifa of Mértola 1146 Taifa of Mértola in the Alentejo regains its independence from Taifa of Badajoz 1146 Marriage of Dom Afonso Henriques with Dona Mafalda of Savoy 1147 March - Dom Afonso Henriques captures Óbidos, Santarém, Tomar and Torres Novas from Moors 1147 Crusader Fleet on route to the Holy Land arrives in Porto and are convinced by Bishop of Porto to sail onto Lisbon to assist Dom Afonso Henriques 1147 October - Capture from Moors of town of Lisbon with assistance from Gilbert of Hastings and the Crusaders. Gilbert appointed Bishop of Lisbon 1147 Dom Afonso Henriques orders construction of Church and Monastery of São Vicente de Fora 1147 Dom Afonso Henriques captures Almada, Palmela and Sintra from Moors 1149 New Berber Dynasty of the Almohades conquers north Africa and invades Iberian Peninsular Hm. No Henry in there, Dave. Here's the thing: a real man would simply admit error, and we could move on.  But you can't do that, can you?  Your fundie-ego won't let you admit that you made a goof; inerrancy is your stock in trade. But just think of the intellectual integrity you'd display if you were to do so!  From 0 to 0.000005 in only a single statement!

Ved Posts: 398 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,06:33    Quote (Faid @ a couple posts up, a few minutes ago) BTW, I think that challenging people on their views in internet debates with money bets is kinda lame. Especially for a self proclaimed Christian.

afdave Posts: 1621 Joined: April 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,08:44    Quote Portugal traces its national origin to 24 June 1128 with the Battle of São Mamede. Afonso proclaimed himself first Prince of Portugal and in 1139 the first King of Portugal. By 1143, with the assistance of a representant of the Holy See at the conference of Zamora, Portugal was formally recognized as independent, with the prince recognized as Dux Portucalensis. In 1179, Afonso I was declared, by the Pope, as king. After the Battle of São Mamede, the first capital of Portugal was Guimarães, from which the first king ruled. Later, when Portugal was already officially independent, he ruled from Coimbra. Rilke--  Check to see who Afonso's father was.  You'll find in was Henry of Burgundy, a French nobleman who helped fight the Muslims. Now, since everybody is whining on your behalf, I'll lower the wager.  You tell me what you are willing to risk to prove you superiority and my idiocy. I wouldn't hold your feet to the fire, Rilke, but you were pretty rash and blatant and bold.  I'll give you a hint ... Sometimes you get what you pay for on Wikipedia. If you want to keep being a jerk, I'm going to shine a bigger and bigger spotlight on you ... otherwise, I'll drop it and we'll move on. -------------- A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED. A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED. http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,08:50    Quote (afdave @ May 19 2006,13:44) Rilke--  Check to see who Afonso's father was.  You'll find in was Henry of Burgundy, a French nobleman who helped fight the Muslims. I don't know anything about the history of Portugal, and hardly anything about linguistics, but I do know this: Dave's original claim was that Portuguese is a mixture of French and Spanish. Arguing about who ruled Portugal when, and where that person was originally from, advances Dave's argument not a bit. If you're going to have an argument about linguistics, have an argument about linguistics, not about medieval European history. And in the meantime, how are you doing with the Theobald article, Dave? -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,08:57    My reference book agrees with Rilkes Grandaughter.  Its "The Pimlico encycolpaedia of the Middle Ages", published in 1999.   What it also says about the formation of Portugal is that the Northern part of what we now knwo as POrtugal was first reffered to by that name in the mid 800's, when it had its own governor.  In the eearly 1000's Ferdidnand the first of Castile and Leon took control, and then his Kingdom was divided amongst his children after his death.  So, in the early 1100's, feuding was going on, ldeaing to Alfonso seizing the throne from his mother in 1128. Now, even if some Henry bloke was Alfonsos dad, that has nothing whatsoever to do with Daves claimed date of 1143, since by that time Alfonso was in charge, and that date was when Spain recognised Portugal as a country in its own right.

Shirley Knott Posts: 148 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:06    Just a suggestion, RGD -- better make dafve specify what he means by 'mixture'. On the typical meaning of the word, his claim is false on the face of it -- Portugese is not a 'mixture' of French and English, any more than English is a mixture of Anglo-Saxon, French and Celtic. And that was, after all, his specific claim. Almost as ludicrous as his claims that an entity "outside" of space and time can nonetheless be a causal agent, or that a singular intelligence is possible, or that an intelligence without corporeality is possible. Or that YEC makes sense and is plausible. Or that the Bible has anything to do with morality in any positive sense. The list is longer than he is... hugs, Shirley Knott

guthrie Posts: 696 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:07    Quote (ericmurphy @ May 19 2006,13:50) [quote=afdave,May 19 2006,13:44] If you're going to have an argument about linguistics, have an argument about linguistics, not about medieval European history. I'm sure we'd like to, but so far Dave hasnt produced any arguments, just a bald statement.   It seems that Henry of Burgundy was dead in 1112: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry%2C_Count_of_Portugal Now, what was Daves statement again? Quote AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:15    Quote Oh really?  How much money do you want to risk that I'm wrong?  Here's the specific statement that I am defending: 1)  AF Dave says that Spanish and Portuguese were essentially the same language until 1143 AD when Portugal broke away from Spanish control under a French nobleman by the name of Henry of Burgundy.  From this point on, the languages diverged into the modern situation.  The primary influence on the linguistic divergence was the French language. 2)  Rilke and Toejam say I am wrong How much are you willing to bet? AFDave, I have a Paypal account, and I will bet you $1000 that Portugal did not break away in 1143 under the control of Henry of Burgundy.

BWE Posts: 1902 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:22    Davey-dog. You are an idiot. Define Spanish. Be careful, that's a trick question. Next Define spanish around the time of song of roland.   I'll take your bet. But the stakes are different. If I win, I get to write a post on your blog, if you win, you get to write a post for my blog. and one more thing, please answer some age of the earth questions. Just because I think you are stupid, I am not going to do any preliminary research. And I am making some assumptions about your claim: 1) the portuguese language substantially changed beginning in the year 1143. 2) The Spanish you are referring to is Castilian 3) The french language and the Castillian language are the major components of modern Portuguese. 4) the dialect of Portuguese you are referring to is the one spoken in Lisbon. 5) That you are making an all or nothing claim similar to  your others (there are no gray areas) -------------- Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered When wished on the morning star Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it Look what it's done so far The Daily Wingnut

Russell Posts: 1082 Joined: April 2005 (Permalink) Posted: May 19 2006,09:35    While I have no immediate interest in Portuguese history, this little diversion does serve the purpose - who was it? - someone wanted to see the nature of afdave's discussion style on some subject other than evolution, as a kind of test as to whether he had a mental "blind spot" on that one subject, but was functional elsewhere. I think the answer's in. From where I sit, afdave has made no attempt to support his original claim: that Portuguese is "a mixture of Spanish and French". While his contention about Henry of Burgundy does have some connection with reality, the specifics are wildly wrong. So, what do we learn from this? I see a lot of parallels between the two lines of argument - "shared errors", if you will - suggesting that, in fact, it's not just an evolutionary blind spot, but a pervasive flaw in reasoning tools. Overconfidence Reluctance to consider alternative views Reluctance to acknowledge superior expertise Inability to focus Inability to define central question Inability to acknowledge error and self-correct Oh - and as BWE notes - typological thinking in the areas of biology and language All characteristic of both discussions. If I were a career counselor, I would say this guy should not go into science. -------------- Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

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