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+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: How Can a Conscious Human... started by thordaddy


Posted by: thordaddy on Mar. 30 2006,23:47

be comprised of 100,000 billion unconscious cells?
Posted by: Tim on Mar. 31 2006,02:51

The whole is so much greater than the sum of its parts. :)
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 31 2006,03:23

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 31 2006,05:47)
be comprised of 100,000 billion unconscious cells?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't know.

Maybe it is an emergence quality.

What do you think?
Posted by: Drew Headley on Mar. 31 2006,04:40

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 31 2006,05:47)
be comprised of 100,000 billion unconscious cells?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Provide me with a rigorous definition of consciousness and then we can talk.
Posted by: PuckSR on Mar. 31 2006,06:57

did you just discover philosophy thordaddy?

This is like the 10th time you have posed one of these "classic" philosophical riddles.

How about this...can God create a stone so heavy even he cannot lift it?

Come on...this stuff is a lot of fun to think about...but it doesnt have any bearing on science....

I can point you to several lively discussions on these topics, some of them are several thousand years old....
Posted by: Drew Headley on Mar. 31 2006,07:04

Hey guyz, how can a computer add numbers if individual transistors cannot. I mean, am i rite?
Posted by: cogzoid on Mar. 31 2006,07:35

How do you know each cell is NOT conscious?  You just jumped to that conclusion.  Have you tried listening to a single neuron?  I mean, really listening.
Posted by: thordaddy on Mar. 31 2006,10:48

Stephen Elliot,

Honestly, I have no idea, but it would seem that some of our cells are either conscious or create consciousness as a collective.
Posted by: cogzoid on Mar. 31 2006,11:41

thordaddy,

What is your definition of consciousness again?
Posted by: PuckSR on Mar. 31 2006,11:42



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Honestly, I have no idea, but it would seem that some of our cells are either conscious or create consciousness as a collective.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well... i think the point has already been made that it is a quality of the collective ability.

Transistors are an excellent analog...
Posted by: thordaddy on Mar. 31 2006,12:56

cogzoid,

My definition is the one in the dictionary that could be summed up as self-awareness.
Posted by: Drew Headley on Mar. 31 2006,13:00

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 31 2006,18:56)
cogzoid,

My definition is the one in the dictionary that could be summed up as self-awareness.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If your definition is self-awareness then do you think that < this > costitutes a consciousness? If not, why and how would you further refine your definition?
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 31 2006,22:08

Quote (Drew Headley @ Mar. 31 2006,19:00)
If your definition is self-awareness then do you think that < this > costitutes a consciousness? If not, why and how would you further refine your definition?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey Drew,

Interesting link. Damned if I have an answer though.
Posted by: jeannot on Mar. 31 2006,22:50

Quote (thordaddy @ Mar. 31 2006,05:47)
be comprised of 100,000 billion unconscious cells?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And how can a conscious human be comprised of 10^22 unconscious molecules?  :p
Posted by: thordaddy on April 01 2006,01:10

Drew Headley asks,



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
If your definition is self-awareness then do you think that this costitutes a consciousness? If not, why and how would you further refine your definition
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It may, but it doesn't matter to me because consciousness ALONE does not define human life.  This only poses a problem for those that determine and define human life based on consciousness.
Posted by: GCT on April 03 2006,01:15

Quote (PuckSR @ Mar. 31 2006,12:57)
How about this...can God create a stone so heavy even he cannot lift it?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's what I was thinking.

Ah dude, could, like, god make a burrito so hot that, like, he couldn't even eat it?
Posted by: Chris Hyland on April 03 2006,03:37



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
it would seem that some of our cells are either conscious or create consciousness as a collective.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I would say answer B.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
it doesn't matter to me because consciousness ALONE does not define human life.  This only poses a problem for those that determine and define human life based on consciousness.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I dont think there are many people who define human life based soley on consciousness.
Posted by: Seven Popes on April 03 2006,04:28

PuckSR


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Transistors are an excellent analog...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heeeee! Bad pun.
Posted by: Henry J on April 03 2006,16:55

Re "How about this...can God create a stone so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Relative to which source of gravity? Lifting on Earth would be a bunch easier than lifting off a neutron star.

One consideration that comes to mind here, though, is that there is an upper limit to the mass that a stone could possess - if it's own mass is strong enough to collapse it's molecules, then it ain't a stone anymore. :)

Henry
Posted by: Caledonian on April 03 2006,17:19

Quote (Tim @ Mar. 31 2006,08:51)
The whole is so much greater than the sum of its parts. :)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No.  The properties of the sum of the parts are not equal to the sum of the properties of the parts.

Why do people always get this wrong?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on April 03 2006,18:20

Quote (Henry J @ April 03 2006,21:55)
Re "How about this...can God create a stone so heavy even he cannot lift it?"

Relative to which source of gravity? Lifting on Earth would be a bunch easier than lifting off a neutron star.

One consideration that comes to mind here, though, is that there is an upper limit to the mass that a stone could possess - if it's own mass is strong enough to collapse it's molecules, then it ain't a stone anymore. :)

Henry
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

EDIT: Oh shoot, GCT beat me to it...
Posted by: GCT on April 04 2006,01:06

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 03 2006,23:20)
The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

EDIT: Oh shoot, GCT beat me to it...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Ha!  If you weren't so busy burning down churches, you might have had a chance.
Posted by: Chris Hyland on April 04 2006,01:18



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Also, could he draw a triangle where the internal angles don't add up to 180 degrees.

Edit: and no he can't use spherical geometry.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on April 04 2006,04:22

Quote (Chris Hyland @ April 04 2006,06:18)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Also, could he draw a triangle where the internal angles don't add up to 180 degrees.

Edit: and no he can't use spherical geometry.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey, if Our Lord wants to use spherical geometry, certainly none of us are in a position to stop Him.
Posted by: stevestory on April 04 2006,04:26



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I started involuntarily laughing when I heard that. I've never heard that before.
Posted by: Henry J on April 04 2006,04:35

Re "Also, could he draw a triangle where the internal angles don't add up to 180 degrees.

Edit: and no he can't use spherical geometry."

Hyperbolic geometry, instead! ;)

Henry
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on April 04 2006,04:39

Quote (stevestory @ April 04 2006,09:26)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

The version I always liked was "could Jesus microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself could not eat it?"
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I started involuntarily laughing when I heard that. I've never heard that before.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I confess I ripped it off from the Simpsons.
Posted by: Drew Headley on April 04 2006,05:34

This thread is now the official annoying philosophical questions thread.

This sentence is not true.
Posted by: steve_h on April 04 2006,07:54



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Re "Also, could he draw a triangle where the internal angles don't add up to 180 degrees.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

not enough information, do you mean degrees Kelvin or Celcius?
Posted by: GCT on April 04 2006,08:21

Quote (steve_h @ April 04 2006,12:54)
do you mean degrees Kelvin...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Um, I thought we were talking about triangles, not photon energy?
Posted by: steve_h on April 04 2006,12:41

Quote (GCT @ April 04 2006,13:21)

Um, I thought we were talking about triangles, not photon energy?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are the same thing: < http://www.google.ch/search?q=photon+energy+triangle > - 351,000 hits.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on April 04 2006,12:52

Quote (steve_h @ April 04 2006,17:41)
Quote (GCT @ April 04 2006,13:21)

Um, I thought we were talking about triangles, not photon energy?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


They are the same thing: < http://www.google.ch/search?q=photon+energy+triangle > - 351,000 hits.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Likewise, googling the phrases "italian language" and "spanish language" together generates 1.59 million hits. I can't see how this could mean anything other than that Italian and Spanish are the same language.
Posted by: steve_h on April 04 2006,13:43

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 04 2006,17:52)

Likewise, googling the phrases "italian language" and "spanish language" together generates 1.59 million hits. I can't see how this could mean anything other than that Italian and Spanish are the same language.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well duh!  This whole spanish-italian differentiation is just a scam to sell spanish-italian dictionaries to the unwary.    

However,  I seem to have taken us off-topic. Apologies to TD, and I will limit such proofs to the UD thread in future.
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