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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > GoP defends his claim about muslim intergration

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Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,14:25    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 18 2006,19:10) Arfin:         Quote Yeah. When did these guys hear about Jesus? [snip] [pssst....Arden. Shah Jahan was quite familiar with Jesus.   ] Kidding aside, I see your point. The Mayan and Khmer Empires were both great. So were the Aztecs, Incans, Egyptians, Greeks, as well as many others. Nonetheless, none of these civilisations ever reached the height of European Judeo-Christian culture, and I think religion explains much of the difference. Those were Eric's photos. I notice you didn't include the Romans in that discussion. Besides, your comments were not about the 'height of European Judeo-Christian culture', it was about how Christians and Jews are somehow saving us all from 'tyranny' and savagry. Keep your asinine claims straight, please. You never did tell me, is Creationism an essential part of fending off 'tyranny'? A 6,000 year old earth? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,14:36    Quote Those were Eric's photos. Well, you can't blame me.....Eric and Steve didn't make it easy to identify the author!   Quote I notice you didn't include the Romans in that discussion. An oversight. Obviously, Rome and Greece helped European civilisation as well. But Protestant Christianity took it to the next level, while Catholic Christianity contributed some nice philosophy and architecture in the meantime.   Quote You never did tell me, is Creationism an essential part of fending off 'tyranny'? A 6,000 year old earth? No specific doctrine is strictly necessary I suppose, but the Christian society that neglects the Bible is headed for trouble. I've seen Europe's substitutes for Jesus, and I'm not impressed with their track record. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,16:13    Now, Paley, as a Christian, perhaps you can tell me: what are you personally doing to protect us liberals from tyranny? Is you just being a Christian enough to do it? I'm just curious what your role is in all this. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank Posts: 2560 Joined: Feb. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,17:24    Geez, is Paley  ***STILL*** cackling . . . .? -------------- Editor, Red and Black Publishers www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

ericmurphy Posts: 2460 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 18 2006,17:54    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 18 2006,19:10) Kidding aside, I see your point. The Mayan and Khmer Empires were both great. So were the Aztecs, Incans, Egyptians, Greeks, as well as many others. Nonetheless, none of these civilisations ever reached the height of European Judeo-Christian culture, and I think religion explains much of the difference. Actually, that was me. But which is the real reason these other civilizations never reached the heights (if that's the proper term) of Judeo-Christian culture? Is it because there's something inherently pro-civilization about Judaism and/or Christianity (seems doubtful) or is because they peaked earlier in time than European culture? If you could teleport back to, say, the 14th century, and could get a global perspective on the civilizations in existence at the time, I doubt you'd have any reason to single out Europe as any kind of future center of civilization or culture. You'd probably see China as the dominant culture on the planet. Central America probably would have looked pretty promising too. So—what is it do you suppose it is about Christianity that made it an engine of civilization, culture, and technology—but only after 1,000 years or so? The first 1,000 years Europe spent under Christianity were pretty grim. You say you think it's religion that's the difference: but what about religion? Kung Fu Tzu-ism did the Chinese pretty well for a lot longer than Christianity has even existed… -------------- 2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity "Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,07:38    Quote (Chris Hyland @ Sep. 18 2006,18:08) Quote Over here we seem to be growing a compensation culture. Years ago we used to laughat some of the stupid compensation claims tha Americans made. Now it is becoming a huge industry here. 1).A couple of years ago someone came up to us on the street and ended up trying to persuade my friend to sue her brother for pushing her of the swing and breaking her leg when she was 5.   Quote There is also a growing number of people that seem to choose to live on benefits. Something that I consider unsustainable. 2).This does seem to be a worrying trend although its hard to tell sometimes how much the news blows it out of proportion.   Quote To get back on-topic. I do not believe that muslim lack of success is the fault of individual muslims. I consider it a mix of our perception of them combined with (sometimes) their militancy. 3).What tends to happen in Britain is a situation of tolerant segregation (the government calls it multiculturalism), Im not really sure what the solution is though. 1).That does not really surprise me. Litigation has taken off in a large way in Britain. It has now lead to far fewer experiences for children in the way of school activities, trips and sport. 2). You are probably correct in assuming media exageration, the problem is real though. From my experience it is localised. My ex wife was brought up on a council estate in Wigan. Unemployment was enormous and mostly a chosen lifestyle. I suspect it is down to expectations and role models. The other problem is people who lose their jobs and get trapped on benefits. The whole idea that a person could be financially worse off by choosing to work is ridiculous to me, but for certain people it is a fact of life. 3) While I would agree that it usually leads to tolerant segregation this is not always the case. Especially at the time that it is originally happening. Multiculturalism is a nice idea but I do not think that it is working. Certainly not for Brit/Asian muslims. Other groups seem to be fairing much better though. Brit/Asian Hindus and Sikhs seem to be doing very well. Particularly those that were forced to leave Uganda by Idi Amin. In fact I think as an ethnic group they are the financialy most successfull people in Britian (on average).

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,08:57    Quote No specific doctrine is strictly necessary I suppose, but the Christian society that neglects the Bible is headed for trouble. I've seen Europe's substitutes for Jesus, and I'm not impressed with their track record Let me guess: you're disappointed with Europe for rejecting Creationism and Fundamentalism. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,09:59    Eric Murphy:     Quote But which is the real reason these other civilizations never reached the heights (if that's the proper term) of Judeo-Christian culture? Is it because there's something inherently pro-civilization about Judaism and/or Christianity (seems doubtful) or is because they peaked earlier in time than European culture? If you could teleport back to, say, the 14th century, and could get a global perspective on the civilizations in existence at the time, I doubt you'd have any reason to single out Europe as any kind of future center of civilization or culture. You'd probably see China as the dominant culture on the planet. Central America probably would have looked pretty promising too. Wow. I could write pages and pages. Let's just say that Judaism and Christianity place more emphasis on independent thinking than other religions do. This is why the West has a robust view of civil liberties despite the Church's concerted efforts to quash heretical groups and anti-Christian expression. That will have to do for now.... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,10:05

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,10:09    Arfin' Nutmeld:   Quote Let me guess: you're disappointed with Europe for rejecting Creationism and Fundamentalism. Not as disappointed as they will be. France and Germany are already hurtin' economically, British youths are turning into thugs, crime rates are rising across Europe.......how long until a crisis erupts, I wonder? Clichy-sous-Bois just dropped off its perch. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,10:24    Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 19 2006,15:05) That is pretty funny. A Reaction more While I do not believe the majority of British muslims preach violence. There seems to be a wierd World reaction to a speach by the pope. A large percentage of muslims seem to be saying...."If you say Islam is intolerant we will resort to violence".

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,12:00    Lawrence Auster has been blogging on all things Islam lately. He's even more radical on the subject than I. Good stuff on the Pope. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,17:18    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 19 2006,15:09)     Quote Let me guess: you're disappointed with Europe for rejecting Creationism and Fundamentalism. Not as disappointed as they will be. France and Germany are already hurtin' economically, British youths are turning into thugs, crime rates are rising across Europe.......how long until a crisis erupts, I wonder? And you think that's because they rejected fundamentalism and creationism. And you think that these things don't happen in America, at least not in conservative, religious areas. Wow. You're far, far stupider than I even thought. And I already thought you were pretty stupid. -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

Seven Popes Posts: 190 Joined: Mar. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 19 2006,17:39    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 19 2006,15:09) Arfin' Nutmeld:   Quote Let me guess: you're disappointed with Europe for rejecting Creationism and Fundamentalism. Not as disappointed as they will be. France and Germany are already hurtin' economically, British youths are turning into thugs, crime rates are rising across Europe.......how long until a crisis erupts, I wonder? Clichy-sous-Bois just dropped off its perch. And one day soon, their violent crime rate may even rival ours. -------------- Cave ab homine unius libri - Beware of anyone who has just one book.

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,08:05    Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Sep. 19 2006,15:24) [quote=stevestory,Sep. 19 2006,15:05] While I do not believe the majority of British muslims preach violence. There seems to be a wierd World reaction to a speach by the pope. A large percentage of muslims seem to be saying...."If you say Islam is intolerant we will resort to violence". Muslims believe that you sumit to Islam or the follower of Islam by violence where possible or by lying when needed.

Stephen Elliott Posts: 1776 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,08:23    Quote (tsig @ Sep. 20 2006,13:05) [quote=Stephen Elliott,Sep. 19 2006,15:24] Quote (stevestory @ Sep. 19 2006,15:05) While I do not believe the majority of British muslims preach violence. There seems to be a wierd World reaction to a speach by the pope. A large percentage of muslims seem to be saying...."If you say Islam is intolerant we will resort to violence". Muslims believe that you sumit to Islam or the follower of Islam by violence where possible or by lying when needed. I have had no expeience of that. Out of the group of 8 people I am in at work there are 2 Hindis 1 Sikh 3 muslims and 2 non denomination. No submitting to violence happening. I have worked in 4 muslim countries and had no major problems. IMO it is a minority of eejits that are stirring up trouble (in Britain). That minority is very vocal however and if you lived in an area where you only saw muslim people on the news you could be forgiven for thinking that muslim=intolerance. It apears to me that at least 3 things are responsible for the way muslims apear to other people. 1-The behaviour of the more extreme members. 2-The way the media report news. 3-The almost silence and unwillingness to criticise fellow muslims by moderates.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,11:31    S. Elliot: Quote I have had no expeience of that. Out of the group of 8 people I am in at work there are 2 Hindis 1 Sikh 3 muslims and 2 non denomination. No submitting to violence happening. Actually, my experiences mirror this. I find the vast majority of Muslims cordial and reserved, although several have gotten agitated when Israel is discussed. The main problem, however, is.... Quote 3-The almost silence and unwillingness to criticise fellow muslims by moderates. This is the biggie. If a culture can't control its extremism, then the extremists control the culture. And if you don't try to fix a problem, then you are part of the problem IMHO. I don't see a way around this dilemma. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,12:18    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 20 2006,16:31) Quote 3-The almost silence and unwillingness to criticise fellow muslims by moderates. This is the biggie. If a culture can't control its extremism, then the extremists control the culture. And if you don't try to fix a problem, then you are part of the problem IMHO. I don't see a way around this dilemma. And to think - this is how Bush thinks we should behave in America.  Disgusting, is it not? -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,12:39    Midnight Voice:     Quote And to think - this is how Bush thinks we should behave in America.  Disgusting, is it not? Eh??? I don't understand. If this is meant as a criticism, then I'm doubly confused, since as an Irishman you'd understand better than anyone the danger in enabling/tolerating terrorist violence (and this is coming from someone who loves Irish culture). As an Amurican from the Christian Right, I know that we don't do enough to combat the likes of Eric Rudolph, because even though secular philosophers played a role in his actions, Christian rhetoric encouraged him and some Christians even shielded him from the authorities. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,13:39    7 Popes:               Quote And one day soon, their violent crime rate may even rival ours. While the European homicide rates are lower than ours, overall violent crime levels were generally much higher in the EU than the U.S. However, the latest victimisation surveys do indicate an overall decrease in the EU since the turn of the millenium. I bet the US still wins, though. Any more myths you'd care to share with us? Arfin':         Quote And you think that's because they rejected fundamentalism and creationism. And you think that these things don't happen in America, at least not in conservative, religious areas. Wow. You're far, far stupider than I even thought. And I already thought you were pretty stupid. See, this is why liberals have to censor their opponents: they can't handle the evidence and therefore must resort to tu quoque and ad hominem arguments. America's situation -- which is better than Europe's, incidentally-- has little to do with Europe's problems. And yes, I blame much of this decline on replacing Jesus with multiculturalism and Big Brother. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,14:34    Here's one (rather old) statistic on Australian Muslims:     Quote In 1996 the unemployment rate of Muslims in Australia was 25 per cent, compared to eight per cent for United Kingdom and Irish-born, and nine per cent for the Australian-born and national total, in spite of the fact that the Muslims' skill levels were almost equivalent both to the Australian-born and the national total. Muslims were also better represented in higher and bachelor degree education than the other groups. Many Muslims believe their Islamic culture, which is exposed by their names and dress code, affects their employment opportunities. They are perceived to be 'different' from the dominant population because of their Muslim names such as 'Muhammad', 'Abdullah', 'Ahmed', 'Ayesha' or 'Fatima'. Muslim women's traditional attire or Islamic dress code, the abaya or chador (long dress or big shawl) and hijab (headscarf) also make them culturally conspicuous. Their cultural identity immediately reveals that the applicant for a job is not a 'native' and belongs to a different ethnic background. In consequence it is believed they may not be able to assimilate to the employing company's culture, which is Anglo-Celtic Christian or Australian. This group of vocal atheists doesn't care much for Islam. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Arden Chatfield Posts: 6657 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,15:12    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 20 2006,18:39)             Quote And you think that's because they rejected fundamentalism and creationism. And you think that these things don't happen in America, at least not in conservative, religious areas. Wow. You're far, far stupider than I even thought. And I already thought you were pretty stupid. See, this is why liberals have to censor their opponents: they can't handle the evidence and therefore must resort to tu quoque and ad hominem arguments. America's situation -- which is better than Europe's, incidentally-- has little to do with Europe's problems. And yes, I blame much of this decline on replacing Jesus with multiculturalism and Big Brother. That's not what you SAID, doofus. (And no one is censoring you, so lose the martyr complex.) What you SAID was that Europe's crime rate is due to evolution and their abandoning fundamentalism. And yet, the US has a HIGHER crime rate than Europe, even tho most Americans don't accept Evolution and we're crawling with fundies. So your theory makes no sense. AGAIN. Another stupid theory of yours. But if you really love your theory, please prove to us why nonfundamentalism and evolution cause Europe's LOWER CRIME RATE. I could use the laughs. I think I could more easily make an argument that accepting Darwinism lowers crime. You think I 'can't handle the evidence? YOU are the one making the stupid assertion, so YOU must provide the evidence. Just like when you prove the sun revolves around the earth, right? -------------- "Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 20 2006,16:02    Arfin'   Quote But if you really love your theory, please prove to us why nonfundamentalism and evolution cause Europe's LOWER CRIME RATE. I could use the laughs. I think I could more easily make an argument that accepting Darwinism lowers crime. Europe doesn't have a lower crime rate. Or didn't you read the links I just gave? And why don't you try proving your assertion that....   Quote I think I could more easily make an argument that accepting Darwinism lowers crime. .....if you're so sure of yourself?   Quote You think I 'can't handle the evidence? YOU are the one making the stupid assertion, so YOU must provide the evidence. Just like when you prove the sun revolves around the earth, right? You just made a claim yourself. Why does the burden of proof rest solely on my shoulders? Typical liberal....stacks the deck cause he can't win a fair debate.... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2006,01:33    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 20 2006,17:39) Eh??? I don't understand. If this is meant as a criticism, then I'm doubly confused, since as an Irishman you'd understand better than anyone the danger in enabling/tolerating terrorist violence (and this is coming from someone who loves Irish culture). As an Amurican from the Christian Right Hmm.  I am hardly surprised at you lack of understanding, it is what I would expect from an Amurican from the Christian Right. And bilingual I am, but Irish I am not. But thanks for the compliment.  Next you will really compliment me and think I am a woman   -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2006,04:32    MidnightVoice:   Quote Hmm.  I am hardly surprised at you lack of understanding, it is what I would expect from an Amurican from the Christian Right. And bilingual I am, but Irish I am not. But thanks for the compliment.  Next you will really compliment me and think I am a woman   They have operations for that, you know. Check the Ann Coulter threads. OK, wiseguy, if you're from the UK but not "British" or "Irish", then are you a Scotsman or Welshman? Or from a former colony? And please explain my "lack of understanding". -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

MidnightVoice Posts: 380 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2006,09:04    Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ Sep. 21 2006,09:32) OK, wiseguy, if you're from the UK but not "British" or "Irish", then are you a Scotsman or Welshman? Or from a former colony? And please explain my "lack of understanding". American I assume it lack of mental ability -------------- If I fly the coop some time And take nothing but a grip With the few good books that really count It's a necessary trip I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 21 2006,09:19    I told ya that looks can be deceiving! Who's next? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 23 2006,05:49    Where have you gone, Faid De-doctor-o, a forum turns its lonely eyes to you, whoo-hoo-hoo.... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Louis Posts: 6436 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2006,00:32    I take this claim has been abandoned in light of GoP's new venue for touting racist bullshit? Anyway, since I am still excruciatingly busy, you'll STILL have to wait. Although I did discover a variety of useful stats from the ONS, I'll post them when I have time. Cheers Louis -------------- Bye.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Sep. 30 2006,05:12    Louis, I've abandoned nothing. It's just that no one has refuted anything I said, so what else can I do? You asked for stats, I gave em to ya, and then you and Faid went away. And what racism have I been "touting"? I thought I was criticising Diamond's racism. Since when does criticising inherent mental differences = racism? You liberals don't make a lick of sense. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

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