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  Topic: Will a "Gay Gene" Refute Evolution?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
J. G. Cox



Posts: 38
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,10:30   

Quote
There is one additional factor that might be worth having a look at - is the human race currently under selection pressure?

  Well, there is still strong selection against mutations that cause major (fatal) developmental defects.
  My advisor brought up a good point once. In wealthy nations with declining birth rates, there is probably selection for the desire to have children. In the past, all that you needed was a libido to produce children; for instance, I don't think that most animals have a desire to produce offspring, they just want sex and offspring result from that. Now that we can have sex without producing children, many people are choosing to do just that. However, many people want lots of children also. If there are any genetic correlates to these paternal/maternal desires, then those will spread in the populations of wealthy nations.


Quote
nobody knows what evolution predicts.


If you are claiming that evolutionary theory cannot be used to predict the fitness consequences of certain mutants (and thus their probable fates), then you are wrong. We do it all the time in Ecology. Heck, I'm building a game theoretic model right now which predicts the fitnesses of different trait values for antipredator behaviors and using it to explain certain phenomena in community ecology. It can be difficult to do because such models can be hard to parameterize, but it is still done. I don't know offhand of anyone intentionally trying to predict the fitness consequences of mutations that don't yet exist, but I can't see any point in doing so either. Why predict the outcome of a certain non-existent mutation when there is very little chance that that mutation will arise in your lifetime?

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 06 2006,11:31   

What IDers must understand is that evolutionary biology doesn't make future predictions (except at a short timescale). First, they would be useless since they cannot be verified within a researcher's lifetime. Second, as J. G. said, there is far more than one evolutionary path for a given lineage. Third, we cannot predict future selective pressures (environments).

However evolutionary biology produces predictions on what we can observe or detect, like transitional fossiles, the origin of Homo in Africa (Darwin's prediction), phylogenetic trees, the trace of a chromosomal fusion in Homo...

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,07:38   

jeannot said:
Quote
What IDers must understand is that evolutionary biology doesn't make future predictions (except at a short timescale). First, they would be useless since they cannot be verified within a researcher's lifetime. Second, as J. G. said, there is far more than one evolutionary path for a given lineage. Third, we cannot predict future selective pressures (environments).

          Correct. Evolution makes retrodictions rather than predictions. But scientists need predictions in order to produce new technologies and carve out promising paths for future research. That's why evos must wait for discoveries in other fields before pursuing their own inquiries. Look how dependent modern evo "science" is on genome sequencing and developments in computer science; conversely, these disciplines have little use for evolution. Why? Because people would rather learn new things than explain old ones.
        Which brings me to another observation: the clever way in which everyone (including creationists) constucts cofferdams (in evos's case, caissons :D )  to protect his philosophy from encroaching dissonance. Let's use a neutral example: I'm a big fan a baseball and its statistics. While a player's contribution with the bat can be reliably tabulated, his glovework is tougher to measure. A statistician can record assists and putouts, but do these numbers reflect a player's skill or the quirks of the team's pitching staff? And what role does his homepark's dimensions play? The manager's mindset? This problem has bedeviled everyone in the game.
      Perhaps one can account for these factors by adding the total number of a fielder's plays, estimating the impact his team makes on these numbers (do the pitchers yield an unusually high number of ground balls? Is the outfield a bit undersized? Are the surrounding players unusually immobile, forcing the player to accept more chances?), and adjust accordingly. But one problem remains: a team is alloted a maximum of 27 outs. This constrains each player by "capping" his number of opportunities. An exceptional defensive player (Ozzie Smith or Andruw Jones in his prime) will reduce the number of hits while "hogging" more than his share of outs. Which means fewer opportunities for everyone else.
     This problem is known to just about every statistician in the game. Unfortunately, until the advent of play-by-play data, the stats guy was unable to measure the impact of this factor. So did they admit that the traditional stats were crucially flawed and wait for better metrics? If you answered "Yes", then obviously you haven't been on planet Earth for very long. Instead, they simply ignored the gaping hole in their model, or assumed that it wasn't very important. For example, Bill James wrote an essay a couple of decades ago defending the range metrics current at the time while deriding his critics as "amateur sabermetricians". Recently, however, he came out with Win Shares, a metric that avoids the age-old problem to a much greater extent. His shiny model competes with other metrics such as Ultimate Zone Rating and Defensive Regression Analysis, which account for the precise location of every batted ball over the entire season. While flawed, each method represents a tremendous improvement over traditional statistics, and blessed with these shiny toys, the math crowd regales us with the intractable problems faced by measures of old.
      Am I implying any dishonesty here? No, it's just people being people. Humans have a need to solve problems, to make a splash, to create, and they aren't going to let inadequate methods-let alone facts- get in the way. To work, however, this process must be unconscious. There must be no acknowledgement of the incompatability of past positions, because that might compromise today's glosses. Too few transitions in the fossil record? Well, kids, geology predicts that fossilization will be rare, so evolution predicts this state of affairs. And what with soil acidity, depositional bias, continental drift...it's no surprise, and only a rube would think that intermediates would be anything other than vanishingly rare....we can even calculate this....oh look at this new discovery! OOH- and lookie here! and here! See, just as we predicted - an intermediate - no, a whole slew of them! What was it you creos were saying about the poor fossil record? And we can measure the probability of fossil preservation with much more confidence - so there! Once again, the snake sheds his skin without a moment's thought - be he evo, creo, or somewhere in the middle. So what to do? I don't know either, but I do know this: when an expert says a problem doesn't count, it just might be that it can't be counted. Look around you, you'll see this phenomenon everywhere.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,08:39   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 07 2006,12:38)
To work, however, this process must be unconscious. There must be no acknowledgement of the incompatability of past positions, because that might compromise today's glosses.

What, praytell, is the past incompatibility that has gone unacknowledged in this case?

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Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:15   

Quote
What, praytell, is the past incompatibility that has gone unacknowledged in this case?

Originally, evos credited the stinginess of fossil-bearing strata to simple geochemical processes. Yet now that several "intermediates" have been discovered, not only are these processes ignored, there is not even an attempt to reconcile past explanations with current data. It's as if prior rationalizations have disappeared into the memory hole. Did later stratigraphic research overturn those facts? Were the facts merely wishful thinking? What is the explanation?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:21   

Ghost of Paley.

I assume that you do not believe evolution is true.

Why do you not state what you believe has happened? In just a few short statements if possible.

How about quick answers to:

How old is the Earth?
When did life first apear?
When did Humans apear?

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:21   

So, GoP would like to throw out modern science, statistics etc?  I suppose thats par for the course.  Why dont you go and pick on fluid dynamics?  Or physical chemistry?  Why the concentration on Evolutionary biology?

Heck, 20 years ago we didnt have the right equations and methods for showing how Bumble bees flew.  

GoP, if you want to argue about the geological column, I suggest you actually try and get some data on the table.  Otherwise your just handwaving.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:35   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 07 2006,14:15)
Originally, evos credited the stinginess of fossil-bearing strata to simple geochemical processes. Yet now that several "intermediates" have been discovered, not only are these processes ignored, there is not even an attempt to reconcile past explanations with current data. It's as if prior rationalizations have disappeared into the memory hole. Did later stratigraphic research overturn those facts? Were the facts merely wishful thinking? What is the explanation?

They looked for and ultimately found this fossil right where they thought it would be - in an area with lots of exposed Devonian rock.  I still have no idea what you think is not reconciled.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:49   

Quote
So, GoP would like to throw out modern science, statistics etc?

See, this is part of what I'm talking about. My purpose was not to bash statistics, least of all baseball statistics. I was discussing the way that people process disturbing information. Instead of saying, "Yeah, that's a crippling objection for now, hopefully we'll be able to address it with future research", they use two defense mechanisms:

1) The objection is not really important, at most it's a slight gap in our knowledge
2) A smooth rationalization pops up, which is assented to by all researchers in the field, and quietly dropped when a better explanation comes along. This process appears to be large instinctive, as no mention is ever made of the switch. Just like the speaker in 1984 (heh!;)) changing the enemy's identity in midsentence, except the crowd doesn't rip up the obsolete banners and placards. If anyone does object, they're labeled a crank, rube, and whatever other terms come to mind. This label has some merit, as it usually does take an outsider to probe beneath the surface.

 Personally, I appreciate the evolution of baseball stats, and support the new metrics. I just remember that we were supposed to be at war with Eurasia, that's all.
Quote
They looked for and ultimately found this fossil right where they thought it would be - in an area with lots of exposed Devonian rock.  I still have no idea what you think is not reconciled.

See? Unconscious.  :)

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,09:57   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 07 2006,14:49)
See?

No.  I still have no idea what you think is unreconciled.  Please explain.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,10:15   

Okay. Let me try again.

   During the Gish Era, a common objection to evolution was the scarcity of intermediate fossils (yes, I know that it's still common, but much more hay was made back then). I was an evolutionist at that time (now I'm a geocentric creationist, to answer Mr. Elliot's question), so I would hunt for responses to the creo charges. The most popular one was, "The scarcity of transitional forms is perfectly understandable, given how unlikely the fossilization process is. It's surprising how many fossils we do have". Then they would demonstrate this by describing the process in detail, all the time underlining the unlikelihood of the whole thing. Now, however, no one remarks on how surprising all these discoveries are, given the unlikelihood of the intermediates being preserved. Now, those same creo objections that were glossed over before are being dusted off and recast as significant problems that have now been solved, proving the validity of evolution. Look at the Stephen Jay Gould essay celebrating the discovery of Rhodocetus in Dinosaur in a Haystack. Would the objections have been recognised if the discoveries had not been made? I say no.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,10:30   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 07 2006,15:15)
Now, however, no one remarks on how surprising all these discoveries are, given the unlikelihood of the intermediates being preserved.

But I thought the find was being hailed as a rare and exciting event.

--------------
Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,10:44   

Evos,

Regarding the ability to make predictions, I'd like to know if you knew what you know now, could you go back to the dawn of the age of mammals and predict the remarkable similarity of marsupial to placental mammals, the wolf, the mouse?

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:11   

No, we couldn't, for the reasons I gave.

EDIT: I assume you didn't mean: "Since you know that some placental mammals and marsupials converged for several morphological traits, could you predict this if you go back before this convergence?" The answer is yes, in this case.

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:30   

Ok, let's go back to that.

What IDers must understand is that evolutionary biology doesn't make future predictions (except at a short timescale). First, they would be useless since they cannot be verified within a researcher's lifetime. Second, as J. G. said, there is far more than one evolutionary path for a given lineage. Third, we cannot predict future selective pressures (environments).

First of all, we can eliminate #3, because you would be making your prediction upon conditions that were shaping up in Australia, i.e., the existence of suitable trees and mammals coming along to create niches for predators. I've been told over and over that science is about being able to make predictions.

Now, granted there is more than one evolutionary path. How can we account for not one but several incredibly similar outcomes? After millions of years of separation from very different early ancestors there arose these almost identical animals. The coincidence of just too out of range of my credulity meter.

I'd rather either discard the notion that they developed separately, or come up with a new facet of evolutionary theory, such as perhaps some sort of Platonic realm of ideas in which there are just so many body forms available.

the trace of a chromosomal fusion in Homo...

That was predicted?

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:35   

Oh, yes, that is pretty much what I meant. please elaborate.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:41   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ April 07 2006,14:49)
Quote
So, GoP would like to throw out modern science, statistics etc?

See, this is part of what I'm talking about. My purpose was not to bash statistics, least of all baseball statistics. I was discussing the way that people process disturbing information. Instead of saying, "Yeah, that's a crippling objection for now, hopefully we'll be able to address it with future research", they use two defense mechanisms:

1) The objection is not really important, at most it's a slight gap in our knowledge
2) A smooth rationalization pops up, which is assented to by all researchers in the field, and quietly dropped when a better explanation comes along. This process appears to be large instinctive, as no mention is ever made of the switch. Just like the speaker in 1984 (heh!;)) changing the enemy's identity in midsentence, except the crowd doesn't rip up the obsolete banners and placards. If anyone does object, they're labeled a crank, rube, and whatever other terms come to mind. This label has some merit, as it usually does take an outsider to probe beneath the surface.

 Personally, I appreciate the evolution of baseball stats, and support the new metrics. I just remember that we were supposed to be at war with Eurasia, that's all.
Quote
They looked for and ultimately found this fossil right where they thought it would be - in an area with lots of exposed Devonian rock.  I still have no idea what you think is not reconciled.

See? Unconscious.  :)

*Shrugs*

Sure, we're human here, (I think I am anyway.)  So scientists cheat, lie, indulge in wishful thinking, make up data, etc etc.  Yet somehow, things keep getting back on track, no matter what the field.  Even if it takes 30 years, new data that realigns the field is absorbed and used to make new decisions and experiments.  

I thought you were trying to show that evolution was a crock?  So far you havnt gotten anywhere.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:45   

Quote (avocationist @ April 07 2006,16:30)
First of all, we can eliminate #3, because you would be making your prediction upon conditions that were shaping up in Australia, i.e., the existence of suitable trees and mammals coming along to create niches for predators. I've been told over and over that science is about being able to make predictions.

Now, granted there is more than one evolutionary path. How can we account for not one but several incredibly similar outcomes? After millions of years of separation from very different early ancestors there arose these almost identical animals. The coincidence of just too out of range of my credulity meter.

I'd rather either discard the notion that they developed separately, or come up with a new facet of evolutionary theory, such as perhaps some sort of Platonic realm of ideas in which there are just so many body forms available.

[i] the trace of a chromosomal fusion in Homo...[i/]

That was predicted?

The selective pressures I mentioned rely on the selected traits, since these traits could not be predicted, these selective pressures cannot either, even if we know the precise selecting environments (which we don't).

The concergence between certain eutherians and maruspials is nowhere near incredible. This is just rough morphology, like the wings of a bat and a pterosaur. The anatomy is quite different. Are you amazed at the convergence between different reptiles or birds? Morphological convergence is certainly the results of parallel adaptations. What is your alternate theory about it?

The trace of a chromosomal fusion in Homo was not only predicted, it was investigated and detected.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,11:52   

Quote (avocationist @ April 07 2006,16:35)
Oh, yes, that is pretty much what I meant. please elaborate.

If you know an event, I assume you can go back through time before this event and predict it, provided you don't interfere with its cause.

Shall I develop?

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,12:11   

Quote
I'd rather either discard the notion that they developed separately, or come up with a new facet of evolutionary theory, such as perhaps some sort of Platonic realm of ideas in which there are just so many body forms available.


We don't need anthing as spooky as a "Platonic realm" to see why there are "just so many body forms available." In evolutionary time, nature has faced the same problems, over and over, many many times.

Eyes have evolved in many diverse lineages. Sight is a good solution to the ever-present challenge of being aware of the environment.

Check out a Mososaur, a big shark, and a dolphin. Simple hydrodynamics gives us a much better idea why that streamlined shape is a good idea for a large marine predator than any notion of Platonic forms.

So, that the adaptive radiation of a few ancestral marsupial forms in Australia led to several derived forms that are quite similar to the derived forms of a similar adaptive radiation of placental mammals is not at all surprising, and is predicted by an evolutionary model, at least in a general sense.

--------------
The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
jeannot



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Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,12:16   

I personnaly wouldn't say the convergence between some marsupials and eutherians could be predicted with confidence, but it's definitely not surprising.
Note that I don't know about macro-evolutionary models (is there any?).

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,12:26   

I realize that the selection pressures were reasonably similar on the different continents. And while there may indeed be a limit on the number of different kinds of mammals that can arise, I still find the similarity between the marsupial and placental types uncanny.

Quote
Are you amazed at the convergence between different reptiles or birds?
Are you kidding?

Quote

If you know an event, I assume you can go back through time before this event and predict it, provided you don't interfere with its cause.
Based upon what principles would you predict the almost identical morpholigies of the marsupial and placental types?

Quote
What is your alternate theory about it?
I could speculate, but I am clueless. Actually, I threw the question out there but I haven't read up on the genetic similarities. I'd like to know more about that.

I guess I would lean to the idea that those animals were not really separated for as long as we think they were. and yet, they've got this completely different reproductive strategy.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:01   

Quote
Based upon what principles would you predict the almost identical morpholigies of the marsupial and placental types?

Based on the post you just quoted. (???)
Quote

I could speculate, but I am clueless. Actually, I threw the question out there but I haven't read up on the genetic similarities. I'd like to know more about that.
We don't know any particular genetic similarity between convergent marsupials and eutherians. First, we have to identify the genes responsible for a given morphology. But since these genes interact and co-evolve with others, we don't expect any genetic similarity between analogous forms.
Quote

I guess I would lean to the idea that those animals were not really separated for as long as we think they were. and yet, they've got this completely different reproductive strategy.
They were indeed separated a long time ago and we have a remarkable convergence. Yet, this is rather common in animals and even in plants.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:15   

So basically because "homosexuality" exists it must be due to an evolutionary pathway?  We just make this assumption because...?  Even though it seems, on its face, to contradict evolution?

  
C.J.O'Brien



Posts: 395
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:22   

You're basing this too much on gross morphology, I believe, which is not the same as anatomy, by which metric, convergent marsupials and placentals have preserved their idiosyncratic differences (and I don't just mean the obvious, divergent reproductive anatomy.)

And your supposition about "not really separated as long as we think," or words to that effect, highlights one of the supreme difficulties facing the evolution-denier.

You see, no science is an island. It all has to fit in with what is understood from other disciplines, often across quite divergent areas of inquiry. You are now at the point where the conclusions of geology have to be called into question. The breakup of Gondwana and the isolation of Australia is not very much doubted in the theory of Plate Tectonics. Island biogeography, also, can tell us a lot about the capability of different types of animals' ability to traverse the open ocean between widely seperate islands.

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The is the beauty of being me- anything that any man does I can understand.
--Joe G

  
normdoering



Posts: 287
Joined: July 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:29   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 07 2006,18:15)
So basically because "homosexuality" exists it must be due to an evolutionary pathway?  We just make this assumption because...?  Even though it seems, on its face, to contradict evolution?

Like everything else that exists, homosexuality exists because it can. It also exists because the difference between gay and straight is slight enough to occur at random at a genetic level.

What evolution might predict is that any gay gene that  exists would not be absolutely gay -- it would be part of a range of effects that shifts sexual orientation and there should be straight people with so-called gay genes.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:32   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 07 2006,18:15)
So basically because "homosexuality" exists it must be due to an evolutionary pathway?  We just make this assumption because...?  Even though it seems, on its face, to contradict evolution?

Why do you conclude that?

Because homosexuality exists, we can go back through time and predict it, like any fact or event. The evolutionary pathway is your own interpretation.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,13:36   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 07 2006,18:15)
So basically because "homosexuality" exists it must be due to an evolutionary pathway?  We just make this assumption because...?  Even though it seems, on its face, to contradict evolution?

Hey Thordaddy!

What about gay penguins?:

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cns/2002-06-10/591.asp

Think it's genetic with them, or are they just using their free will to make wicked 'lifestyle choices'?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
avocationist



Posts: 173
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,16:12   

Quote
And your supposition about "not really separated as long as we think," or words to that effect, highlights one of the supreme difficulties facing the evolution-denier.
Gosh, I hope that's not like being a holocaust denier.

Anyway, if australia was indeed isolated that long ago then I think there ought to be some evolutionary principles to account for the similarity that occured. Just saying similar selection pressures isn't good enough.

What do you think, Paley?

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,17:26   

Arden,

When you document high incidences of AIDS, STDs, drug abuse, domestic violence and early mortality amongst homosexual penguins then we'll talk.  LOL!

  
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