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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 5, Return To Teh Dingbat Buffet< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 08 2019,17:19   

Quote (Lethean @ July 08 2019,09:39)
Quote (timothya @ July 08 2019,06:05)
A contribution from KFabulist:

“This draws out from K to D or T/M then S4 and S5 which allow reduction of modal strings, S5 being in effect, cut down to the last modal operator before a claim A. Also, the route from T/M via S4 + B –> S5, is explored. B is the difference between S4 and S5. Let’s use for convenience N: and P: for necessity and possibility, and use –> for it follows logically that.”

I have asked at UD if anyone has an explanation of what this passage means. Perhaps someone here might be able to parse it.

In my opinion, this is what you get from someone living on a volcanic island, shaking his hoary locks and howling at the Moon.


Clearly the text version of this.



btw you do know that most conspiracy theories are manufactured by Big String and Corkboard, right?

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2019,07:18   

Quote
225
Timothya July 9, 2019 at 4:45 am
KF:
“If it is possible that A holds necessarily, A holds necessarily”.

What? Are you seriously arguing that if A possibly holds, then A necessarily holds. In what world is this proposition worth considering?


IDK, let's try a simple substitution: "If it is possible that KF is smoking crack, KF is smoking crack."

OK that looks logically irrefutable.  :p  :)  :D

linky

   
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2019,08:27   

Quote
Recent Comments

bornagain77 In fact Weinberg, again an atheist, rejected the instrumentalist approach... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 In further empirically establishing humanity’s centrality in the universe in... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 Even individual people, as the following article makes clear, can... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 As an incentive for us to accept his 'simplification' he... – We are invited to consider a...


Ain't nobody got time for that.

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 09 2019,13:19   

Quote (stevestory @ July 09 2019,06:27)
Quote
Recent Comments

bornagain77 In fact Weinberg, again an atheist, rejected the instrumentalist approach... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 In further empirically establishing humanity’s centrality in the universe in... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 Even individual people, as the following article makes clear, can... – We are invited to consider a...

bornagain77 As an incentive for us to accept his 'simplification' he... – We are invited to consider a...


Ain't nobody got time for that.

I dunno, I'd consider it, if it was read aloud by Rod Serling.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2019,16:10   

hmm. imgflip doesn't like be copied here.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2019,16:13   



--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Henry J



Posts: 5436
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 10 2019,19:28   

So is this the twilight of evolution?  :p

  
k.e..



Posts: 5336
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,09:01   

Serling to going to UD.
Quote
You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mud ... a journey into a malodorous land whose boundaries are that of over imagination—your next stop, the Twilight Zone! Uncommon Descent


--------------
"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,10:08   

Quote
9
FourFaces July 10, 2019 at 10:58 am
BornAgain77,
I’m sorry but I find your style of debate (lengthy quotes) to be impenetrable. If you got a point to make or a refutation of what I said, use as few words as possible and be precise.
Quote

10
Bornagain77 July 10, 2019 at 12:08 pm
FF, no thanks. I’m happy with the point I made as it is.


Quote
12
AaronS1978 July 10, 2019 at 1:38 pm
9
FourFaces
July 10, 2019 at 10:58 am
BornAgain77,
I’m sorry but I find your style of debate (lengthy quotes) to be impenetrable. If you got a point to make or a refutation of what I said, use as few words as possible and be precise.

Agreed, and I’m not bashing on you BA77 either, but just a summary and the link would be fine. You do have a lot of good points but it’s hard sometimes to sort through the quotes to get to the meat and potatoes


Quote
14
Brother Brian July 10, 2019 at 3:37 pm
FF

BornAgain77,
I’m sorry but I find your style of debate (lengthy quotes) to be impenetrable.

It’s the written version of the Gish Gallop. Or, another way to phrase it “BS baffles brains”.


Quote
18
Brother Brian July 10, 2019 at 6:07 pm
BS77
Quote

BB, unlike you, I can produce evidence for my claims.

Well, since BS77 thinks that his means of debate is perfectly fine, I might as well use is approach.


so now BB is just cut and pasting thousands of words.  :D  :D  :D

   
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,10:10   

after several thousand C&P words from BB and BS:

Quote
25
Brother Brian July 10, 2019 at 7:27 pm
BS77
Quote

BB, you quote a bunch of negative stuff about Religious extremism. Fair enough. It might surprise you, although I disagree with a lot of what you posted,

I wouldn’t know. I don’t understand anything that I just posted. So, we have something in common.


Oh god UD, just when I get bored with you, you deliver.  :p

   
KevinB



Posts: 470
Joined: April 2013

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,11:51   

Quote (Henry J @ July 10 2019,19:28)
So is this the twilight of evolution?  :p

Ah yes. Following on from Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, we can have Uncommon Descent with Vampires.

Thus we have Stephanie Meyer, a Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute, and Stephen Meyer, a writer of teen fiction.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 1949
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,14:37   

Quote (KevinB @ July 11 2019,11:51)
Quote (Henry J @ July 10 2019,19:28)
So is this the twilight of evolution?  :p

Ah yes. Following on from Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, we can have Uncommon Descent with Vampires.

Thus we have Stephanie Meyer, a Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute, and Stephen Meyer, a writer of teen fiction.

They certainly have bad fiction in common.  Though I believe angsty undead are more in touch with reality than kf, ET, or bs77.

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2253
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 11 2019,18:11   

Kevinb:  
Quote
Thus we have Stephanie Meyer, a Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute, and Stephen Meyer, a writer of teen fiction.

Both people are really portrayed by that great character actor, ET.  And fuck you if you don't believe it.

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,07:50   

Quote
263
Kairosfocus July 11, 2019 at 10:44 am
Back, augmented.

264
Kairosfocus July 11, 2019 at 10:49 am
JAD, you have raised several serious concerns. And when we see notions like, to believe in God is to be delusional, or to be raised in a theistic tradition is tantamount to child abuse, or schemes that boil down to social, professional and media marginalisation or even scapegoating, things have gone way too far. Even the attempt to dress up atheism in the lab coat is questionable. KF

265
Kairosfocus July 12, 2019 at 1:42 am
F/N: On curiosity, I looked for some of the penumbra of attack, and picked up a sampler, from several participants in a group:

>”Atheism seems to be on the table these days here at Uncommon Descent and a few
>points need clarification.”
>
…no they don’t. It’s already benn clarified…it’s really quite
simple. We reject the extraordinary claim for the existence of a
“God”/gods because there’s NO verifiable evidence to support the silly
notion.

..now, is the [vulgarity deleted] clear enough for you Dunky ? If not, I’d suggest
some remedial education in logical reasoning.

[ . . . . ]

Speaking as one that everything just took the time to create itself.

[ . . . . ]

A rather pathetic whine. Meanwhile there is not a whimper or glimpse
of gods in evidence. Consider that even if there were booming voices
from the clouds we could not even then conclude the presence of gods.
As it is we have nothing at all. Just a load of whining.

[ . . . . ]

Atheism is the birth right of every human being….needs no clarification!

[ . . . . ]

Yes, NATURE took millions of years to make things!

It works without satisfying your mood……or you delusion in the form of a pixie which is untenable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Let’s look at these typical claims, as they reflect the sort of frame of reasoning that drives many who are locked into evolutionary materialistic scientism [which, recall, is inherently self-referentially incoherent and self-falsifying at the outset]:

>>It’s already benn clarified>>

1 –> It is clear from the above that even the definition of atheism is in need of clarification (especially weak form, so-called) and that its setting in worldviews frameworks faces the same challenge of comparative difficulties that every responsible worldview faces.

2 –> Let’s elaborate briefly on the self-referential undermining of rationality, from Haldane:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]

. . . and Reppert:

. . . let us suppose that brain state A [–> notice, state of a wetware, electrochemically operated computational substrate], which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief [–> concious, perceptual state or disposition] that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.

3 –> That is, we already see that atheism has no right to claim to be a default worldview, and/or to put on a lab coat and put up that it is the proper view of a rational, scientifically informed person.

>>…it’s really quite simple. We reject the extraordinary claim for the existence of a
“God”/gods>>

4 –> Clifford/Sagan evidentialism fails its own test, as it implies an infinite regress of warrant and/or embeds self-serving selective hyperskepticism: the “extraordinary” claims that demand “extraordinary evidence” — i.e. evidence not likely to be available given our epistemic challenges — is likely to mean, worldview and/or factual claims one does not like.

5 –> Instead, worldview claims and factual claims should be addressed on responsible, fair-minded assessment of adequate, reasonably accessible evidence.

>> because there’s NO verifiable evidence to support the silly notion.>>

6 –> likely, echoes the 50 years dead verification principle that in effect only analytic claims and empirically/operationally verifiable claims are meaningful. Unfortunately, the verification principle in its various forms and derivatives — formerly used to try to wreak havoc on metaphysics, theology etc — fails its own test. But it took decades for that point to get through.

7 –> Next, what counts as evidence? Does the logic of being i/l/o possible worlds semantics, clarifying what it means to be impossible/possible or contingent/necessary, or causally dependent on on/off enabling factors? (In that light, does an analysis of the fire tetrahedron count as evidence, being a discussion of how such enabling factors affect that which begins, is sustained and may cease, vs. what is embedded in the framework for a world to be possible, vs. the infinite regress supertask faced by a worldview that implies that a quasi-physical causal-temporal chain of finite stages has traversed an implicitly transfinite past in successive steps? Etc?)

8 –> Where, such is directly connected to Wigner’s unreasonable effectiveness of Mathematics?

9 –> Where, further, the relevant warrant challenge is to support the claim that there is no God and/or no reasonably accessible evidence that warrants responsible belief in God. Where, God is indubitably a serious candidate necessary being root of reality. Serious candidate NB’s are either impossible of being or are present as foundation for possible or actual existence of any feasible world. So, the warrant that God is not in fact a serious candidate NB is: and/or, the warrant that God is impossible of being is: __

Fair comment: while these are hardly leading atheistical spokesmen, this reflects a too common underlying attitude that needs serious adjustment. The so-called new atheism has not helped matters in our civilisation.

KF

266
Kairosfocus July 12, 2019 at 2:18 am
F/N: The same search tossed up this from a certain Laika, April 12, 2015:

https://www.religiousforums.com/threads.....175945

This question is directed more specifically at strong atheists who make a positive assertion that god does not objectively exist rather than weak atheists who have grounds for not having a subjective belief in god. Realizing this is the case, I’ve actually decided to change my position to an agnostic as I cannot objectively prove Atheism is true (agnosticism and weak atheism are barely distinguishable).

I honestly, don’t know how it would be done because it appears to involve radical changes in how we define the nature of objective reality and would appear to involve considerable amount of philosophy in addition to a scientific method to approach the question. I suspect it’s closely related to philosophical materialism, but I’m not 100% sure. Given the breadth of the question I felt I needed to throw it out to everyone on RF and just see what comes up.

So I wanted to ask:

i) how does a (Strong) Atheist set about to prove that god’s non-existence is an objectively truth- irrespective of the beliefs of agnostics, theists etc?

ii) what proof would be required for a believer to voluntarily give up their belief in god/gods?

This of course immediately warrants that the OP and early exchanges above are very relevant. We see here a case observed in the wild.

An immediate, brief reply is also significant: “I don’t see how the non-existence of something can be proved. What can be demonstrated is the lack of evidence, though absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence.”

It seems to me that induced ignorance of evidence (I blame our formal and informal education systems for failing to provide good worldviews analysis foundations) and linked rise of polarisation lead to a situation where there is widespread substitution of crooked yardsticks for sound ones. At minimum, we need to understand the force of Agrippa’s trilemma on warrant, and how it leads to a worldviews, comparative difficulties approach thus a diversity of views on what are accepted core first plausibles. In that context we need to rehabilitate the concept that there are certain self-evident truths with ability to serve as naturally straight and upright plumb-lines that correct crooked yardsticks. For example, Josiah Royce long since highlighted the significance of the premise that error exists. Similarly, distinct identity and close corollaries such as LEM and LNC, also the panoply of numbers, will help a lot. Similarly, an assessment of logic of being. See here on in context.

From this, we can clear out a lot of worldviews confusion and needless polarisation that seem to be all too common across our civilisation.

And BTW, on evidence, world views comparative difficulties warrants arguments to God, a sampler here may be useful.

So might be this discussion on atheism.

This collection of essays on warrant for the Christian faith may help. (See my own summary here on in context, starting with a video.)

These answers may also be helpful.

KF

267
Kairosfocus July 12, 2019 at 2:58 am
Recall, these are cases seen in the wild.

268
Kairosfocus July 12, 2019 at 3:56 am
F/N: On broader worldview commitments that are typically intertwined with atheistical views:

http://www.apologetics.net/pos........I).aspx

Atheists generally reject the claim that atheism is a worldview[i]. Some say atheism is merely the belief in a single proposition, whereas a worldview is a set of propositions comprising a philosophy of life or a conception of the world. Others say atheism is nothing more than the rejection of all gods and any system of belief one might wrap around this view is diverse and independent. But are these claims reasonable, and if not, why all of the denial? And suppose atheism is a worldview, why does it matter? These questions I will attempt to answer in this post.

Is it or is it not?

A single proposition is not a worldview. The proposition “God exists” is no more a worldview than its negation “God does not exist.” It is one’s view of God and the corollaries associated with that view which contribute significantly to worldview. When someone says “an atheist only believes no gods exist” their statement is somewhat misleading. They are using the textbook definition of the word instead of the de facto description of the typical atheist. There may be a rare few out there who do not know or care about anything beyond the belief “there are no gods” (P) but most atheists have a fairly consistent set of corollary belief derived or dependent upon P. Consider the following questions:

Do most atheists believe matter ultimately precedes mind?
Do most atheists believe in abiogenesis over biogenesis (that life arose through material processes on earth or on some other world and transported here?)
Do most atheists believe the world has apparent design produced by material processes instead of actual design by an intelligent agent?
Do most atheists believe all self-regarding acts are amoral?
Do most atheists believe the essence of a man ceases to exist at death?
Do most atheists believe the only purpose for existence is that which one self-determines?
Do most atheists value reason over faith and in significant numbers devalue faith altogether?
Do most atheists believe man is the primary determinant of man’s future?

Of course the answer is yes to most of these questions for most atheists.[ii] And these questions of origin, purpose, morality and destiny are the kinds of questions comprising worldview. One may find some variation in response to the above just as Christians for example do not agree on every issue, but that is not grounds to dismiss the correlation that generally exists. Let’s be candid, atheists do not rally, come together for coffee, write books, debate, argue, criticize, litigate, and devote scores of hours to atheist-causes merely because they hold to a single contrary proposition to theists. No, many atheists have a substantive and comprehensive worldview, one that is derived and dependent upon their view of God, and one that motivates their behavior.[iii] Given who atheists generally are in terms of common core belief comprising worldview, it is obvious atheism is a richer description than just one who holds to a single proposition regarding nonexistence. This richer description is a worldview.
Why deny it?

So what’s the big deal? Why would not atheists simply respond: “Yeah, atheism is a worldview, so what?” There are at least two answers; one clear-cut and the other a little more difficult to prove. I’ll just mention the later and then move right on to the former. The more atheism is acknowledged as a worldview, the more it will be recognized as a religion, and I don’t need to explain why this is an anathema to the atheist[iv]. But let’s skip this one and move on to a more tenable explanation as to why there is denial. Recognizing atheism as a worldview puts a new epistemic burden on the atheist. To start with:

If a core proposition (P) in one’s worldview is without warrant, then any corollary propositions (P1, P2 … Pn) of P are also unwarranted unless they have independent warrant.

Say because I believe that P (there are no gods), I also believe that P1, P2, and P3 given they are corollaries of P. I may very well have done my epistemic duty accepting corollaries P1, P2 and P3 given I have warrant (good reason) to believe that P. But what if I do not have good reason for that P? What if I assume there are no gods merely because I have no good reason for believing there are? In the absence of independent warrant for that P1, P2 and P3, I am slacking off my epistemic duty if I accept them. When the new atheist says: “you have not given me any good reason for believing Q” that does not mean therefore Q is false. One should be agnostic to Q merely on this basis. Building a worldview on a proposition you ought to be agnostic on is epistemic negligence. I won’t rehash what I’ve gone into at length in my previous post. But suffice it to say the atheist does not want this additional epistemic burden.

If my point is still unclear, consider the following example. If I believe there are no gods (P) then I may very well believe design in nature is apparent and not actual (P1). P1 is a corollary belief on P because it is highly implausible, given that P; design in nature is actually due to the action of an intelligent agent[v]. Therefore, given that P1, my perspective on intelligent design (ID) is likely to be clouded. My skepticism of ID will most likely be exceedingly higher than my skepticism of abiogenesis. But without independent warrant for that P1, this bias is based solely on that P. But if the proper epistemic position for that P is agnosticism, then such bias is unwarranted.

It should be clear at this point the core proposition of the atheistic worldview “there are no gods” (P) must be warranted and accepted because there is good reason to accept it. Otherwise, without warrant, atheism as a worldview is a house of cards. One must have good reason for that P and not merely accept it as a default or hold the view as an agnostic. Otherwise, such a person cannot honestly claim their worldview, which depends significantly on that P, has epistemic integrity. But given the popularity of the sort of weak/default atheism displayed by the most prominent new atheists today, a house of cards it often appears to be.
Why does it matter?

In some ways it doesn’t. It is not illegal to deny what atheism is any more than it is to have a straw worldview. But atheist activism is on the rise. Skepticism and unbelief are on the rise[vi]. Prominent atheists like Richard Dawkins at the recent Reason Rally are as blatant as ever in their attacks. Their strategy is to “ridicule and show contempt” for what religious people hold dear while allegedly taking the high road of reason. Ironically it may be their high-calling of rationalism that is their unraveling. In the meantime, I hope others will stand up for those being deceived into thinking one has to check their brains out at the church door except when entering the church of atheism.

Every worldview faces the challenge of warrant as a responsible, reasonable faith and cannot avoid the challenge of unprovable first plausibles.

KF

269
Kairosfocus July 12, 2019 at 4:04 am
F/N: The lurking issue of moral grounding is also relevant. Theo Hobson:

https://www.spectator.com.au/2014....ty-tomb

Atheism has crept so close to religion these days that it’s de rigueur for political atheists like Ed Miliband to boast about a dual identity: a secular allegiance to a religions tradition, in his case Judaism. They don’t of course believe any of the mumbo jumbo about God, prophets and angels.

But as pleasant and rational as this all sounds, the new atheists are now hitting the intellectual buffers. The problem that confronts them is as stark as it is simple: our morality has religious roots. Put another way: when God is rejected, the stakes are gulpingly high; the entire moral tradition of the West is put in question.

This was the insight of Friedrich Nietzsche — and for all the different atheist thinkers and philosophers since, it remains just as true today. It’s all very well to say that blind faith is a bad idea, and that we should move beyond it to a more enlightened ethical system, but this raises the question of what we mean by good and bad, and those ideas are irrevocably rooted in Christianity. Nietzsche saw this, and had the courage to seek a new ethos amid the collapse of all modern systems of meaning. Did he find one? Yes, in pagan power-worship — the sort that eventually led to fascism. We think of him as mad and bad — but he was brave. Imagine Ed Miliband trying to follow in this tradition, gazing into the abyss of all meaning, the dark crucible of nihilism.

The trouble is that too many atheists simply assume the truth of secular humanism, that it is the axiomatic ideology: just there, our natural condition, once religious error is removed. They think morality just comes naturally. It bubbles up, it’s instinctive, not taught as part of a cultural tradition. In The God Delusion Richard Dawkins tries to strengthen this claim using his biological expertise, arguing that humans have evolved to be altruistic because it ultimately helps their genes to survive. But in the end, he admits that no firm case can be made concerning the evolutionary basis of morality. He’s just gesturing with his expertise, rather than really applying it to the issue at hand. . . .

A warning. One, given history over the past 100 years, with grim potential consequences.

KF
This is the glorious scientific revolution of ID in 2019.  :D  :D  :D

link to repetitive self-important babbling

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,09:13   

Now I know where I recognize KF from
He's the raffia-work prophet from "The Life Of Brian".

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,10:20   

Quote
275
Brother Brian July 12, 2019 at 8:55 am
KF
Quote

BB, you obviously have not read the OP. Atheists like to claim that atheism holds default, but that rhetorical stance lacks warrant,…

That is where you are wrong. The requirement for a “warrant” (and burden of proof) lies with the person claiming that something exists, not with the person claiming that there is no evidence for its existence. For example, do I require warrant backed up with evidence and argument to claim that the default position should be that Santa Clause and leprechauns don’t exist, or is this warrant borne by those who claim that they do exist.

By default, I have no obligation to provide evidence that God does not exist. It is up to those who do believe that he exists to provide compelling evidence of such.


KF is not good at thoughts.

   
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,12:16   

Quote
2
John_a_designer July 12, 2019 at 9:48 am
The Epstein saga is not an isolated phenomena. It is the result of 60 years of a culture that has abandoned transcendent moral truth and objective moral obligation and replaced it with an anything goes view of moral relativism and subjectivism which was the paradoxically defended by secular progressives as an absolute freedom. (How can something that is morally relative and subjective morph into some kind absolute right? That’s not a paradox it is a logical contradiction.) It was not only defended by the cultural elites it was preached and even celebrated. Kyle Smith at National Review describes it this way:
Quote

Hugh Hefner fired up a flare lighting the way to an almost anything-goes view of female sexuality, and it reached its apex at the 2003 Oscars. Under the regime of Hefnerism, conservative prudes and often the law stood charged with being uptight and repressive about sex involving girls just over or even under the age of consent. That Polanski became an exile from this country after his crime made him Hollywood’s favorite martyr. The Academy was eager to give him the Oscar both to showcase its view that he had been victimized by prudery and to dunk on conservatives. Attendees didn’t just applaud, they let out a mighty whoop of approval when Polanski’s Oscar was announced by a smiling Harrison Ford. Meryl Streep, Martin Scorsese, Weinstein, and others all jumped to their feet to participate in a chilling standing ovation. Jack Nicholson, at whose house Polanski’s assault took place, looked confused and joined in the applause, but remained seated. So did Nicolas Cage. No one captured by the cameras looked particularly peevish. As far as I know, no one in Hollywood had any problem with lionizing Polanski at the time. (emphasis added)

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019....itation

And it wasn’t just Polanski.
Quote

Woody Allen made what felt like an autobiographical movie about a 42-year-old television writer having an affair with a 17-year-old high-school student, and nobody blinked. Time magazine put him on the cover under the legend “American Genius.” (It turned out Allen had had affairs with two teenagers around that time). Urged on by her horrible mother, Brooke Shields built a career around being jailbait, posing nude at age 10 for a Hefner publication called “Sugar and Spice,” then starring as a 12-year-old hooker in Pretty Baby (which began filming when she was 11), then at 14 starring in a film about two teens discovering their sexuality, The Blue Lagoon (though a double did her nude scenes). At 15, she starred in Endless Love, which as filmed initially received an X rating, before most of the nudity was cut to achieve an R. Whatever “controversy” attached to any of this was reported by the press solely to pump up the box office, as though conservative naysayers were aliens from a quaint, slightly daft foreign country. The media itself had no problem with it.

In other words, this type of libertine exploitive behavior was a well-known not so secret open secret. And, if you were rich and powerful, well know and famous you were given a complete pass. Now we see what happens to forbidden fruit when it is exposed to the light of transcendent moral truth: it begins to rot. Unfortunately the hypocrites have not completely given up. They are blaming everyone else. It’s society that is hypocritical, not them.


Yeah that's why the Catholic Church is having all those issues--not enough belief in Transcendent Moral Truths  :p  :p  :p

linky

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,13:07   

Wait, the entertainment industry is founded on hedonism and self-indulgence? Who knew?

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"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 12 2019,15:39   



Thank heavens!  :D  :D  :D

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1143
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2019,03:09   

ETA: Oops, sorry, I confused KF for BA!

Edited by Ptaylor on July 14 2019,01:14

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2019,07:43   

Even the best lunatic business fades away. I wonder what Barry would take for that place.

   
k.e..



Posts: 5336
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2019,08:32   

An "The End is Nigh" sandwich board merchant?

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"I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit
"ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus
"I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1143
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 13 2019,20:46   

Quote (fnxtr @ July 13 2019,02:13)
Now I know where I recognize KF from
He's the raffia-work prophet from "The Life Of Brian".


No, I think that's BA77. As evidence compare:
     and    

Edited: Sorry, I fucked up earlier, I'm always confusing BA and KF

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We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2477
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2019,12:21   

BB is really getting under KF's thin skin.

Quote
Brother Brian
July 14, 2019 at 1:48 pm
KF@375, it is interesting that you are dissembling on my question, which has nothing to do with the morality of sexuality. It was about whether a homosexual who prefers to keep his sexual attraction to himself is obliged to tell the truth when asked about it for employment.

And, in response:
Quote
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 2:32 am
BB, The number of times you have tried to drag discussion threads through the sewer itself is telling. This thread has a focus which is civilisation-critical and needs to be properly addressed. After nearly 400 comments, it is clear that atheism does have a challenge of worldview warrant but many atheists (given recent movements) feel they have a rhetorical winner argument by posing on so-called weak atheism as default. All they actually show is a stubborn refusal to acknowledge that they too have worldviews that require warrant, that all worldviews have in them an inevitable commitment to first plausibles that are unprovable, either in principle or in practice [start with the first principles of reason and Agrippa’s trilemma of warrant], and that a responsible position will freely engage the comparative difficulties process. That approach is symptomatic, and can be translated into what it effectively means: I cannot actually provide cogent comparative difficulties warrant for evolutionary materialistic scientism (the relevant form of atheism) and/or its fellow travellers, but can pose on the rhetorical stance that as a key claim is a denial, I am not making a claim other than to being the default. Fair comment: self-defeatingly indefensible, in effect declaring a rationally unwarranted faith dogmatically and seeking to impose it on the pretence that it is the intelligent educated, scientifically minded man’s view. It is ironic and revealing to see such a dogmatic faith declaration on the part of those who claim to disdain faith as irrational. KF

PS: I will be getting back to focus soon enough, on the issue of theistic warrant.
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 4:00 am
F/N: Are theistic “proofs” useless, and is there an adequate warrant for theism?

Let’s note from just above:

[BB, 381:] The burden of proof lies with those who claim something exists, not with those who claim that there is no compelling evidence that something exists.

[ET, 382:] It is up to you to explain why you think the evidence is not compelling, especially in the face of the fact you have nothing to explain it.

[SA, 383:] ET @ 382 has indicated the problem. What you said [in 381] does not follow . . . . You made a statement. The burden of proof is on you to defend the statement you made. Clearly, you can’t or don’t want to do it. But you made the point anyway.

The reality of the atheistical default claim is clear, as is how it seeks to evade responsibility to warrant any serious worldview claim. Let me note, again, from SEP as at 11 above and as was added to the OP — something that has not been cogently answered by those trying the default to atheism gambit backed up by what on fair comment is ill-advised selective hyperskepticism regarding worldviews warrant and ethical theism:

1. Definitions of “Atheism”

“Atheism” is typically defined in terms of “theism”. Theism, in turn, is best understood as a proposition—something that is either true or false. It is often defined as “the belief that God exists”, but here “belief” means “something believed”. It refers to the propositional content of belief, not to the attitude or psychological state of believing. This is why it makes sense to say that theism is true or false and to argue for or against theism. If, however, “atheism” is defined in terms of theism and theism is the proposition that God exists and not the psychological condition of believing that there is a God, then it follows that atheism is not the absence of the psychological condition of believing that God exists (more on this below). The “a-” in “atheism” must be understood as negation instead of absence, as “not” instead of “without”. Therefore, in philosophy at least, atheism should be construed as the proposition that God does not exist (or, more broadly, the proposition that there are no gods).

This definition has the added virtue of making atheism a direct answer to one of the most important metaphysical questions in philosophy of religion, namely, “Is there a God?” There are only two possible direct answers to this question: “yes”, which is theism, and “no”, which is atheism. Answers like “I don’t know”, “no one knows”, “I don’t care”, “an affirmative answer has never been established”, or “the question is meaningless” are not direct answers to this question.

While identifying atheism with the metaphysical claim that there is no God (or that there are no gods) is particularly useful for doing philosophy, it is important to recognize that the term “atheism” is polysemous—i.e., it has more than one related meaning—even within philosophy. For example, many writers at least implicitly identify atheism with a positive metaphysical theory like naturalism or even materialism. Given this sense of the word, the meaning of “atheism” is not straightforwardly derived from the meaning of “theism”. While this might seem etymologically bizarre, perhaps a case can be made for the claim that something like (metaphysical) naturalism was originally labeled “atheism” only because of the cultural dominance of non-naturalist forms of theism, not because the view being labeled was nothing more than the denial of theism. On this view, there would have been atheists even if no theists ever existed—they just wouldn’t have been called “atheists”. (Baggini [2003] suggests this line of thought, though his “official” definition is the standard metaphysical one.) Although this definition of “atheism” is a legitimate one, it is often accompanied by fallacious inferences from the (alleged) falsity or probable falsity of atheism (= naturalism) to the truth or probable truth of theism.

Departing even more radically from the norm in philosophy, a few philosophers and quite a few non-philosophers claim that “atheism” shouldn’t be defined as a proposition at all, even if theism is a proposition. Instead, “atheism” should be defined as a psychological state: the state of not believing in the existence of God (or gods). This view was famously proposed by the philosopher Antony Flew and arguably played a role in his (1972) defense of an alleged presumption of “atheism”. The editors of the Oxford Handbook of Atheism (Bullivant & Ruse 2013) also favor this definition and one of them, Stephen Bullivant (2013), defends it on grounds of scholarly utility. His argument is that this definition can best serve as an umbrella term for a wide variety of positions that have been identified with atheism. Scholars can then use adjectives like “strong” and “weak” to develop a taxonomy that differentiates various specific atheisms. Unfortunately, this argument overlooks the fact that, if atheism is defined as a psychological state, then no proposition can count as a form of atheism because a proposition is not a psychological state. This undermines his argument in defense of Flew’s definition; for it implies that what he calls “strong atheism”—the proposition (or belief in the sense of “something believed”) that there is no God—is not really a variety of atheism at all. In short, his proposed “umbrella” term leaves strong atheism out in the rain.

Although Flew’s definition of “atheism” fails as an umbrella term, it is certainly a legitimate definition in the sense that it reports how a significant number of people use the term. Again, there is more than one “correct” definition of “atheism”. The issue for philosophy is which definition is the most useful for scholarly or, more narrowly, philosophical purposes. In other contexts, of course, the issue of how to define “atheism” or “atheist” may look very different. For example, in some contexts the crucial issue may be which definition of “atheist” (as opposed to “atheism”) is the most useful politically, especially in light of the bigotry that those who identify as atheists face. The fact that there is strength in numbers may recommend a very inclusive definition of “atheist” that brings anyone who is not a theist into the fold. Having said that, one would think that it would further no good cause, political or otherwise, to attack fellow non-theists who do not identify as atheists simply because they choose to use the term “atheist” in some other, equally legitimate sense.

If atheism is usually and best understood in philosophy as the metaphysical claim that God does not exist, then what, one might wonder, should philosophers do with the popular term, “New Atheism”? Philosophers write articles on and have devoted journal issues (French & Wettstein 2013) to the New Atheism, but there is nothing close to a consensus on how that term should be defined. Fortunately, there is no real need for one, because the term “New Atheism” does not pick out some distinctive philosophical position or phenomenon. Instead, it is a popular label for a movement prominently represented by four authors—Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, Sam Harris, and Christopher Hitchens—whose work is uniformly critical of religion, but beyond that appears to be unified only by timing and popularity.

Okay, we do need to cogently respond.

Let’s therefore start the main discussion with a watershed moment in modern intellectual history. At the turn of the 1930’s, shock waves went through the Mathematics community when Godel presented his two key results: [1] once we deal with sufficiently complex mathematical systems, no axiomatic scheme will be both comprehensive and coherent, [2] there is no constructive procedure that can build a limited axiomatic scheme that is demonstrably free of contradictions. In short, the view of Mathematics as the perfection of rational certainty on generally acceptable axioms was dead and nearly a century later remains dead.

Nor is this isolable to Mathematics and its daughter science, computing. As Mathematics can be seen as the [study of the] logic of structure and quantity, where core elements emerge from the distinct identity of a possible world, this result is right there in the roots of how we understand reality and address reasoning. In short, Mathematics and other major movements of reasoning are faith ventures, aspects of the wider worldviews challenge of responsible, reasonable views anchored on tenable first plausibles.

It is in that humbling context that we can responsibly take up the challenge of warrant for worldviews. (Of course, for details kindly cf. here on in context for a 101. This is a summary for purposes of focussed discussion.)

Is ethical theism a reasonable, responsible, rational worldview? Is it reasonable to believe in God? Is there responsible warrant for a theistic view in a day of aggressive atheistical agendas? Thrice over, yes.

Why do I so boldly say this?

First, let us note the logic of being and its import for the nature and roots of reality. Notice, I have been literally pointing to this from the OP on, only to meet with repeated evasion and doubling down on the atheistical escape talking point on default views. Sorry, we can set such dogmatism and defaults aside and deal with worldviews warrant as a general intellectual challenge to be addressed not dodged.

Existence is a reality to be understood, as is non-existence.

Start with the genuine no-thing, non-being. Such has no causal powers [and we see temporal-causal chains all around us], so were there ever utter no-thing, such would forever obtain. A first result then, is that if a world now manifestly is, SOMETHING always was. Reality is eternal and must be explained on a principle of existence that can sustain eternality. So, to the logic of being as a pivotal explanatory framework:

0: Utter non-being cannot account for being, so SOMETHING always was, the question being, of what nature.

1: We can consider candidates to be, and can see that some [square circles] are impossible of being in any possible world. Such is because they have in them claimed essential characteristics that stand in mutual contradiction and so are infeasible in any sufficient description or actualisation of a compossible state of affairs. (And yes, we just defined possible worlds.)

2: Other candidates are feasible, i.e. they may exist in at least one PW. A fire, dependent on heat, oxidiser, fuel and combustion chain reaction is paradigmatic. Such on/off enabling factors are key causal factors showing that a fire is contingent.

3: Accordingly, we distinguish two classes of PB’s: contingent [CB] and necessary [NB]. NB’s are present in any possible world and are easiest understood as being integral parts of the framework for any PW. As an example, any distinct PW, say W, must have a distinguishing feature A, that marks it apart from a near neighbour W’, so we may see a structure: W = {A|~A}, thus recognise how two-ness is structural in any world being.

4: This is a non-trivial result as it frames the core quantities and structures of Mathematics: the Naturals, N, thence Z, Q, R, C, transfinites, infinitesimals, hyperreals and up to surreals. The logic of structure and quantity, in its core, is framework to any PW and so our actual world. Hence, the power of logic and mathematics.

5: Necessary beings are real, and neither began to be nor can they cease from being, and as two bonuses, Mathematics is about abstract entities and is deeply embedded in the currently most prestigious disciplines, the sciences. (Try to imagine a world without two-ness or where it ceases to be — impossible.) Again, a non-trivial result, we must face eternality of reality.

6: We thus have necessary beings as eternal and a reality that is eternal, so we see that the two go together, we are seeing the need for a necessary being root of reality. The issue is not, if such, but which such.

7: One constraint on this, is that our cosmos exhibits finite stage temporal causal succession, and credibly had a beginning. Where, attempts to extend to an underlying sub-verse actually pose a candidate NB world root. The question is viability.

8: If we try to extend the world, we see that on thermodynamics, a long enough past yields heat death, dissipation of centres of concentrated energy, and that fluctuations would point to Boltzmann brain scenarios as overwhelmingly more likely than the sort of world we see.

9: Likewise, a fine tuned world fitted for C-chem, cell based life is a challenge. Walker and Davies:

In physics, particularly in statistical mechanics, we base many of our calculations on the assumption of metric transitivity, which asserts that a system’s trajectory will eventually [–> given “enough time and search resources”] explore the entirety of its state space – thus everything that is phys-ically possible will eventually happen. It should then be trivially true that one could choose an arbitrary “final state” (e.g., a living organism) and “explain” it by evolving the system backwards in time choosing an appropriate state at some ’start’ time t_0 (fine-tuning the initial state). In the case of a chaotic system the initial state must be specified to arbitrarily high precision. But this account amounts to no more than saying that the world is as it is because it was as it was, and our current narrative therefore scarcely constitutes an explanation in the true scientific sense.

We are left in a bit of a conundrum with respect to the problem of specifying the initial conditions necessary to explain our world. A key point is that if we require specialness in our initial state (such that we observe the current state of the world and not any other state) metric transitivity cannot hold true, as it blurs any dependency on initial conditions – that is, it makes little sense for us to single out any particular state as special by calling it the ’initial’ state. If we instead relax the assumption of metric transitivity (which seems more realistic for many real world physical systems – including life), then our phase space will consist of isolated pocket regions and it is not necessarily possible to get to any other physically possible state (see e.g. Fig. 1 for a cellular automata example).

[–> or, there may not be “enough” time and/or resources for the relevant exploration, i.e. we see the 500 – 1,000 bit complexity threshold at work vs 10^57 – 10^80 atoms with fast rxn rates at about 10^-13 to 10^-15 s leading to inability to explore more than a vanishingly small fraction on the gamut of Sol system or observed cosmos . . . the only actually, credibly observed cosmos]

Thus the initial state must be tuned to be in the region of phase space in which we find ourselves [–> notice, fine tuning], and there are regions of the configuration space our physical universe would be excluded from accessing, even if those states may be equally consistent and permissible under the microscopic laws of physics (starting from a different initial state). Thus according to the standard picture, we require special initial conditions to explain the complexity of the world, but also have a sense that we should not be on a particularly special trajectory to get here (or anywhere else) as it would be a sign of fine–tuning of the initial conditions. [ –> notice, the “loading”] Stated most simply, a potential problem with the way we currently formulate physics is that you can’t necessarily get everywhere from anywhere (see Walker [31] for discussion). [“The “Hard Problem” of Life,” June 23, 2016, a discussion by Sara Imari Walker and Paul C.W. Davies at Arxiv.]

10: Circular causation requires a not yet stage to reach back and cause itself. A disguised appeal to non-being. Non-starter.

11: We need a finitely remote, NB world root that is not subject to heat death. No evolutionary materialistic candidate can meet such a requirement, apart from its self referential incoherence. As a reminder, Haldane:

“It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [“When I am dead,” in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. (NB: DI Fellow, Nancy Pearcey brings this right up to date (HT: ENV) in a current book, Finding Truth.)]

12: In addition, the required NB world root is constrained by the existence of rational, responsible, significantly free, morally governed creatures — us. Starting with rationality, we are inescapably morally governed through duties to truth, right reason, prudence (so, warrant), sound conscience, neighbourliness, fairness, justice etc. This can only be founded in the world-root, on pain of ungrounded ought, as we can see in attempts to dismiss such.

13: This requires a causally, morally and rationally adequate NB world root entity. If one objects to the following, this is phil, simply put up an alternative: _ and warrant cogently on comparative difficulties: _ and why is it held to be better ____ . At any rate, something is needed for record. KF

388
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 5:04 am
F/N: I should note on deductive frames of argument on sets of premises or axioms, first, that we often have high confidence in some set of axioms or premises but do not necessarily recognise what they entail, so an exploration of a logic-model world is useful, especially where it draws out necessary truths or entities that obtain for any PW. And in cases of models of restricted scope they may have in them in common archetypes sufficient to apply to our world as a tested, reliable, insightful model — that’s how scientific explanatory constructs work. Which then brings in inference to the best current explanation as a form of inductive warrant. So, it is by no means useless to explore theistic arguments, especially if this leads us to seriously examine alternative world-frame first plausibles. As I will argue onwards, DV, it is the challenge of comparative difficulties across alternatives that lends strength to ethical theism. Above, we have already seen that we need a finitely remote NB world root to adequately account for a world with rational [not merely computational], responsible, morally governed creatures in it. KF

388
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 5:04 am
F/N: I should note on deductive frames of argument on sets of premises or axioms, first, that we often have high confidence in some set of axioms or premises but do not necessarily recognise what they entail, so an exploration of a logic-model world is useful, especially where it draws out necessary truths or entities that obtain for any PW. And in cases of models of restricted scope they may have in them in common archetypes sufficient to apply to our world as a tested, reliable, insightful model — that’s how scientific explanatory constructs work. Which then brings in inference to the best current explanation as a form of inductive warrant. So, it is by no means useless to explore theistic arguments, especially if this leads us to seriously examine alternative world-frame first plausibles. As I will argue onwards, DV, it is the challenge of comparative difficulties across alternatives that lends strength to ethical theism. Above, we have already seen that we need a finitely remote NB world root to adequately account for a world with rational [not merely computational], responsible, morally governed creatures in it. KF

392
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 8:25 am
F/N: Let’s begin to look at at least some version of typical theistic arguments.

Above, we have set a context, where logic of being and world roots requisites lead to the obvious reasonableness of ethical theism, especially once it is seen that God is a serious candidate NB and root of reality, so either he is impossible of being or else he is actual. In absence of cogent positive reason to reject the reality of God — default atheism sans warrant to reject God as possible does not make the cut — it is very reasonable to accept that God exists.

In turn this readily explains the evident fine tuning of the cosmos that supports cell based, C Chem aqueous medium life, and the FSCO/I in that life from the “simple” — NOT! — cell across body plans to our own. It would make sense of our rationality as a divine endowment. It grounds us as having quasi-infinite worth, thence fundamental equality as in God’s image, thus rights, in-built natural law, sound conscience and more. So, we see that a theistic worldview –pace much current rhetoric — is not to be despised as though it were little better than rank superstition or belief in fairies or whatever one may see.

So, that holds before and independent of whether the classical theistic arguments are, valid, sound, rationally plausible, convincing, compelling to one and all, etc.

Sadly, it needs to be said in a world where– this is fair comment — there is a lot of contempt, dismissiveness, disdain, prejudice or even bigotry directed at ethical theism from fairly influential quarters.

It is time for a serious rethink in such quarters.

394
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 8:50 am
F/N: I have found an interesting discussion by a certain “Christopher” — Christ-bearer — here, that I wish to now clip as food for thought:

It seems implausible that all religious people have been deceived completely. The existence of a Transcendent God is more plausible than a completely skeptical outlook on life.

“It seems much more likely that such self-analyzing and self-critical men as Augustine, Blaise Pascal and Kierkegaard were not totally deceived than that total skepticism is right. Unless it is true that no person in the history of the world has ever really been truly critical of his religious experience, then it follows that the reality of God has been critically established from human experience” (76).

This raises the issue that if every person who has ever believed in or had a life-transforming encounter with God [however well or poorly understood or expressed] has been delusional, such would bring the credibility of the human mind under serious doubt.

We are playing with big matches here, and would be well advised to be careful of what we may burn down.

In that context, let us contrast a common enough view (as summarised by the same) on arguments to God:

Most theists are not satisfied with proving God’s existence on experience alone. They went to establish rational proofs.

The Modern attitude toward proofs for God

Since the time of Plato, philosophers have offered proofs for the existence of God.

There are four basic categories of theistic proofs:

1) Teleological – argument from telos (design or purpose)
2) Cosmological (aetiological) arguments from causation
3) Ontological – argument from onto (being)
4) Moral – argument from morality

Peter Koëstenbaum stated that theistic proofs are “logically invalid, epistemologically defective and axiologically misplaced” (80).

Proofs are Psychologically Unconvincing

Rational proofs are generally unpersuasive to non-believers.

Some argue that the mystical theology, not rational theology is the draw for religion. William James thought this was so because human needs are deeper than the rational.

“Psychological persuasion precedes rational demonstration” (81).

Proofs are logically invalid

If God does not appear in any of the premises he cannot appear in the conclusion because a conclusion cannot be broader than the premises.

Also, if God appears in the premises than the argument begs the question.

[–> In response I note from 388: >>I should note on deductive frames of argument on sets of premises or axioms, first, that we often have high confidence in some set of axioms or premises but do not necessarily recognise what they entail, so an exploration of a logic-model world is useful, especially where it draws out necessary truths or entities that obtain for any PW. And in cases of models of restricted scope they may have in them in common archetypes sufficient to apply to our world as a tested, reliable, insightful model — that’s how scientific explanatory constructs work. Which then brings in inference to the best current explanation as a form of inductive warrant. So, it is by no means useless to explore theistic arguments, especially if this leads us to seriously examine alternative world-frame first plausibles. As I will argue onwards, DV, it is the challenge of comparative difficulties across alternatives that lends strength to ethical theism.>>]

Proofs are Epistemologically Defective

This argument holds that even if God exists we cannot rationally know that he exists.

Kant held that we can only know the thing as it appears to us and not the thing in and of itself.

Proofs are ontologically inadequate

This argues that what is rationally inescapable may not be real. We may be able to devise a rational argument for the existence of God, but that does not mean God exists.

The inescapability of a rational argument is based on the principle of non-contradiction but the principle of non-contradiction, while being rationally inescapable has not been proven to be necessarily true. [–> I of course beg to point out right away that such is part of distinct identity and is rightly a first principle of right reason! This one is really a bad sign of our times.]

Proofs are Axiologically Misplaced

The proof for the existence of God should not be the prime importance of one’s religious experience.

Relating to the Modern Attitude Toward Proofs

Modern criticism are of value to theists today, but should not warrant a retreat to fideism.

Proof or Persuasion?

If people are never persuaded by proof then there is not intellectual integrity in the world.

While a rational proof may not play as crucial a role as Rene Descartes held it to, it does not follow that it plays no role at all. Even if if were true that people always believed in God apart from evidence, it does not follow that they believed against the evidence.

A proof for God, if it is successful, leads only to the belief that there is a God, not necessarily a belief in that God . . . . Why do some great minds reject theistic proofs?

1) Some atheists accept no kinds of proof.
2) Some do not allow the types of arguments for God that they allow elsewhere.
3) Some choose not to commit themselves to God despite the evidence.

A lack of persuasion by a theistic proof is not necessarily a fault of that proof, it is a result of a personal choice.

Proofs and logical validity

A formal invalidity of a single proof does not mean all proofs are invalid.

Even if no one has stated a formally valid proof yet, it does not follow that one won’t ever be stated.

Logical validity is not purely objective.

Not all rationally acceptable demonstration need to be valid deductions.

Are all Theistic Proofs Epistemologically Defective?

Kant’s objections are rested on the unfounded assumption that all true knowledge is modeled after the empirical/mathematical knowledge of Newtonian science.

Kant’s consistent agnosticism is not livable because it is self-defeating.

The dichotomy between phenomena and noumena is an unfounded assumption.

Each argument or theistic proof must be examined on its own grounds. One cannot reject all theistic proofs a priori . . .

. . . with Plantinga as was already cited in his lecture on two dozen or so theistic arguments:

TWO DOZEN (OR SO) THEISTIC ARGUMENTS

Lecture Notes by Alvin Plantinga

I’ve been arguing that theistic belief does not (in general) need argument either for deontological justification, or for positive epistemic status, (or for Foley rationality or Alstonian justification)); belief in God is properly basic. But doesn’t follow, of course that there aren’t any good arguments. Are there some? At least a couple of dozen or so.

Swinburne: good argument one that has premises that everyone knows. Maybe aren’t any such arguments: and if there are some, maybe none of them would be good arguments for anyone. (Note again the possibility that a person might, when confronted with an arg he sees to be valid for a conclusion he deeply disbelieves from premises he know to be true, give up (some of) those premises: in this way you can reduce someone from knowledge to ignorance by giving him an argument he sees to be valid from premises he knows to be true.) [–> this is a key]

These arguments are not coercive in the sense that every person is obliged to accept their premises on pain of irrationality. Maybe just that some or many sensible people do accept their premises (oneself)

What are these arguments like, and what role do they play? They are probabilistic, either with respect to the premises, or with respect to the connection between the premises and conclusion, or both. They can serve to bolster and confirm (‘helps’ a la John Calvin); perhaps to convince.

Distinguish two considerations here: (1) you or someone else might just find yourself with these beliefs; so using them as premises get an effective theistic arg for the person in question. (2) The other question has to do with warrant, with conditional probability in epistemic sense: perhaps in at least some of these cases if our faculties are functioning properly and we consider the premises we are inclined to accept them; and (under those conditions) the conclusion has considerable epistemic probability (in the explained sense) on the premises . . .

So, it is time to do some thinking about how we think and whether our thinking is as coherent as we believe. Plantinga on reversing knowledge is especially telling.

396
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 9:04 am
F/N: How I reviewed skeletal form theistic proofs back in 2003, in presenting an intro to phil course:

3. Theistic “Proofs”

Perhaps, it is wisest to start with Pascal’s Wager: given the vital importance and potential consequences of the question whether God is/is not, as the core of all worldviews, and the rough balance of the arguments, one faces a forced, momentous choice.

For, if one “bets” that God is not, and is wrong in the end, s/he has lost all – one’s soul. If one has bet that God is, and is eventually proved wrong, one still has lived by a manner of life that is arguably at least as good as the alternative, and has lost nothing – for one would then face oblivion as all other men do.

Pascal, father of probability theory, therefore argues that on the balance of expectations (= probability x payoff – cost) the bet that God is, is far better – a case of comparative difficulties at work. His underlying point is that if you then sincerely seek God, God will meet you, so that you can come to know God through personal experience.

To see what that “rough balance” looks like, we first explore the classic theistic arguments to God, using modern examples[2] from the families of such “proofs” presented and summarised by Thomas Aquinas in his famous Summa Theologica:

B. Cosmological:

(NB: This appears out of the classical order, as IMHO it makes A far more clear if this is done, by distinguishing and rationalising “contingent” and “necessary” beings. This is an example of a cumulative argument.):

1. Some contingent beings exist. (E.g.: us, a tree or a fruit, an artifact, the planets and stars, etc. — anything that might not have existed, i.e. is caused.)

2. Contingent beings do not exist by themselves – that is in part what “contingent” means – so they require a necessary being as their ultimate cause.

3. If any contingent being exists, then a necessary being exists.

4. Thus, there exists a necessary being, the ultimate cause of the existence of the many contingent beings in the cosmos.

A. Ontological:

1. If God exists, his existence is necessary. (NB link to B.4 just above.)

2. If God does not exist, his existence is impossible.

3. Either God exists or he does not exist.

4. God’s existence is either necessary or impossible.

5. But, God’s existence is possible (i.e. not impossible).

6. So, God’s existence is necessary.

C. Teleological/design:

1. Highly complex objects with intricate, interacting parts are produced by intelligent designers, at least so far as we can determine from cases where we do directly know the cause.

2. The universe (and/or a specific part of it[3]) is just such a highly complex object.

3. Probably, it is the result of intelligent design.

4. But, the scope/complexity of the universe is such that only God could be its designer.

5. Probably, there is a God.

D. Moral:

1. People, in practice, invariably act as though there are binding moral obligations. (For instance, as C. S. Lewis points out, that is how we quarrel.)

2. Probably, such objective, binding moral obligations exist.

3. Probably, unless there is a God, there cannot be objectively binding moral obligations.

4. Probably, there is a God who is the author of the moral order of the universe.

E. Religious experience:

1. If and only if God exists, can God reveal himself to us — through direct encounters/revelations, and/or through miracles, and/or through indirect witness (such as the voice of conscience or the glories of creation, or the intellectual and moral incoherence of other views about ultimate reality), etc.

2. A great many people report that they have had just such experiences of/encounters with/discoveries about God; often sensing union with and/or the utter otherness of God.

3. Many of these are in the list of greatest minds and/or greatest lives in human history.

4. It is extremely unlikely that all of these people are lying, mistaken or deluded.

5. It is therefore highly probable that God exists, as the ground of such experiences. (This argument brings us back to Pascal’s wager.)

These arguments are of valid — or at least inductively strong — forms, and they mutually reinforce like the strands and fibres in a rope[4], but objections can be made to at least some of their premises. However, such rejection comes at a price:

Cosmological: major objections assert that the universe may be eternal, the result of an infinite chain of contingent beings and cause-effect links, and/or that the universe’s existence is a brute – inexplicable – fact. (The first runs head-on into the 2nd law of thermodynamics, which implies that the universe is running down so probably is not infinitely old; but more importantly, the above argument makes no assumptions about the age of the cosmos. The second main objection in effect rejects the principle of sufficient reason: if things happen, there is a good/adequate reason for it. Which alternative is more plausible/ “reason”-able?)

Ontological: from premises # 4 & 5, God’s existence is only possible if it is necessary – inviting the objection that God’s existence is impossible, but this is in turn a very strong claim (and far harder to prove than to assert)!
Design: Objections try to deny the link between the observed complexity of the universe or objects in it and the existence of an Intelligent Designer, aka God. Or, they may point to the gap between the Designer and the God people wish to worship. (The latter is largely irrelevant: teleological arguments do not set out as a rule, to prove ALL that we may wish to know about God, just to argue that the design in the cosmos implies a Designer. The former hinge on providing alternative explanations for complexity in the cosmos, in effect asserting that even very improbable complex systems, given enough time will happen by chance. But, for instance, the calculated odds that a living cell could arise by chance are estimated at ~ 1 in 10 ^ 40,000 – i.e. 1 followed by 40,000 zeroes, a fair number of pages worth. This is so close to impossible as makes no practical difference: it is not likely to have happened once in the whole known universe in any reasonable timeframe for its existence, usually judged at 10 – 15 billion years. Indeed, odds of 1 in 10 ^ 200 are generally regarded as effectively zero.)

Moral: often people simply assert that there are no binding obligations, or claim that there is no set of universally accepted moral principles. Others seek to suggest ways in which moral obligations can exist in a non-theistic world; or else simply say that these obligations are yet another brute – i.e. inexplicable — fact. (The common fact that relativists wish to assert binding moral principles themselves, such as “tolerance,” indicates that relativist claims are self-defeating, sometimes even hypocritical. Disagreement over principles needs not imply their non-existence, just that reasoning about morality has its pitfalls just like any other type of reasoning. Also, C S Lewis and others have highlighted that in fact when individuals and cultures speak of those they care about, they do assert a surprisingly consistent set of values. Evolutionary theories of morality run into difficulties explaining say, self-sacrificing behaviour, and may argue in a circle from “survival is good” to “good is survival.” Many moral obligations cut right across our instincts, to the point where our daily challenge is usually whether we should go with conscience or impulse. And, the “brute fact” claim is actually a major concession: “I cannot explain morality on the basis of my core beliefs, but I have to accept it as a fact.” If so, then why not accept a framework that can make good sense of morality?)

Religious Experience: Some object that religious experiences are simply subjective perceptions: i.e. that they are not veridical. Others add that such experiences are not publicly checkable, i.e. that they lack objectivity. Further, it may be pointed out that different traditions have different, conflicting experiences. (But, to say some religious experiences are not veridical is one thing; to claim that ALL are only subjective and/or delusional is another — especially given that some of those so indicted are central to the world’s intellectual and cultural history; e.g. Moses and his Law, Jesus of Nazareth, the Apostles and their experience of the resurrection of Christ, and a great many others, such as the great scientists Newton, Pascal and Maxwell. Further, just because experiences are mediated through our senses and consciousness does not imply that they are dubious, apart from specific reason to suspect delusion. Thirdly, if we insist on public tests for all experiences, then we face an infinite regress. And, it is more appropriate to observe that there are conflicting interpretations of the experiences rather than contradictory experiences as such; especially as regards union with God and/or of God’s utter otherness.)

Thus, we see that there are no universally compelling theistic arguments, but that rejecting them all comes at a metaphysical price that may be steeper than one is willing to pay.

Okay, there is some meat on the table, so we may ponder together.

397
Kairosfocus
July 15, 2019 at 10:00 am
F/N: What is the main anti-theistic case? (Other than, default and no evidence claims.)

Now that the logical form problem of evil is blunted, it boils down to the evolutionary materialistic view on origins, presented as known fact. Which immediately brings out why the ID issue is such a hot button topic. For, we know about complex, coherent, fine tuned, functionally specific complex organisation and associated information and where they come from: intelligently directed configuration. On trillions of observed cases. Backed up by analysis of blind search, needle in haystack challenges.

So, we have a reason to understand the intensity of polarisation against the design inference on empirically tested, reliable sign.

KF

PS: Recall, Dembski’s summary on Boethius:

In his Consolation of Philosophy, Boethius states the following paradox: “If God exists, whence evil? But whence good, if God does not exist?” . [/QUOTE]

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2019,12:38   

What a loon.  :D  :p  :)

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 15 2019,14:33   

O fur fox ache
All that blather and at the end all he's got is Pascal's wager?

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2019,17:40   

Quote
17
IdPnSD July 16, 2019 at 2:35 pm
Not only quantum mechanics (QM) is wrong, entire science is wrong. Therefore science cannot be useful, not just QM. It is well known that all of science is based on assumptions. Since assumptions are false, not just approximate, and no matter how you manipulate assumptions, results will always remain assumptions. Thus no results can be useful neither for nature nor for engineering. It is a myth that science is the foundation of engineering.

Real numbers are false, because they are not objects of nature. Real numbers are points on a straight line, but straight line does not exist in nature, since all objects in the universe are continuously moving. Thus the entire real number system is false. Since science uses mathematics, science must be false or wrong. Engineering is not wrong, because engineering uses objects of nature. But since engineering also uses false math, false science, and false money (because money is a real number also), engineering is not reliable, it crashes, and pollutes environment. For more details and many examples of false science take a look at the free book at

theoryofsouls.wordpress.com/



Let's get retarded (Black eyed peas song)



Let's get retarded (UD link)

Edited by stevestory on July 16 2019,18:42

   
fnxtr



Posts: 3228
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2019,19:19   

Looks like Robert Byers found a new playpen.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
stevestory



Posts: 12152
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2019,19:43   

Are you sure? I thought Byers's posts always had a lot of spelling mistakes and such because he had poor eyesight.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5436
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 16 2019,20:23   

So one of them is claiming that the computer he's using and the internet that it talks to aren't actually working while he's using it?

Huh.

  
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