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  Topic: Will a "Gay Gene" Refute Evolution?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1773
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,17:44   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 07 2006,22:26)
Arden,

When you document high incidences of AIDS, STDs, drug abuse, domestic violence and early mortality amongst homosexual penguins then we'll talk.  LOL!

What exactly have you provided in documentary evidence so-far?

BTW. I would grant that AIDS/STDs and therefore earlier average life expectancy, is more prevalent amongst gay males. But it is significantly reduced in gay females.

Now how about providing links to articles that back up your position?

  
Henry J



Posts: 5441
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2006,17:48   

Maybe the physical aspects of gender are produced by one set of genes, and the behavoral by a different (perhaps overlapping?) set of genes? Then some regulatory mechanism would usually correlate those two sets, so evolving gayness out of a species would mean strengthening that regulation. Maybe there aren't minor changes that would do that without breaking something else?

Just thought I'd throw that idea out there, to go with somebody else's suggestion that maybe clans with a small percent of homosexuals do better than clans with fewer (or none).

Re "IIRC, the idea is that a fetus is exposed to different hormones in the womb, and exposure to the "wrong" amount of some of them at the "wrong" time will lead to the parts of the brain concerned with sexual attraction being altered to a different way."

Now that's interesing - the idea that older siblings might leave something behind in the womb that affects any later siblings? Huh.

Henry

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,05:15   

avocationist wrote:
Quote
Anyway, if australia was indeed isolated that long ago then I think there ought to be some evolutionary principles to account for the similarity that occured. Just saying similar selection pressures isn't good enough.

What do you think, Paley?

I'd have to agree that the morphological convergence between marsupial and placental mammals is a little too spooky to be accounted for by selection pressures or the cooption of regulatory genetic pathways, although this explanation might work for coarser phenomena such as convergent lifecycles. For example, how can the Darwinist explain the striking similarities between the skull and teeth of Tasmanian "wolves" and their distant placental "cousins"? And remember, scientists once considered mammalian earbones evidence for a common ancestor of the entire class, due to their intricate structure as well as the existence of a sequence of fossils that purportedly show the step-by-step modification of the earbones from the reptilian jaw. Too bad later fossils established that monotremes must have evolved their similar ear structure independently:
Quote
The three-boned middle ear was thought to have evolved only once in a common mammalian ancestor, before the separate evolution of monotremes and later of marsupials and placentals.

But the discovery of a monotreme with a single-bone middle ear changes this simple story.

A common ear

Rich is excited by the findings because they suggest this complex ear structure arose separately at least twice during evolution. And he is amazed at the similarity between the middle ears of monotremes, placentals and marsupials.

"They're so similar it's frightening," he says. "How close can convergent evolution be?"

Convergent evolution occurs where similar traits evolve among very different groups of animals as a result of exposure to similar environmental pressures. What these pressures were in this case, no one knows.

"I haven't go the foggiest," says Rich. "People haven't thought about it because it hasn't been a problem until now."

The findings also mean that palaeontologists will have to reassess the way they identify mammal fossils. To date any specimen was a mammal if it had a three-boned middle ear.

But since Rich's discovery, the classification of mammals won't be able to rely on this simple test alone.

Rich and team did not find the whole skull of the extinct monotreme. They only had a lower jaw to analyse. But this jaw showed telltale signs that the hammer and anvil were connected to it.

[all emphases due to Paley]

I would be frightened too.

--------------
Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,10:51   

Stephen Elliot,

That is why I have specifically said "homosexuals" (gay males).

And again I ask, given these statistics, is it wise and prudent to be teaching grade school kids the "normalcy" of the homosexual lifestyle?

Remember, I speak from an American perspective and more specifically from the state of California.  If you are going to deny that this "education" is taking place then maybe you need to do a little more research like I have.

As another point, IMHO people don't "choose" their heterosexuality because evolution DOES NOT NEED to provide such a choice.  Why would evolution devise ANY "sexual orientation" besides that which is needed for reproduction?

  
stevestory



Posts: 12162
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,10:55   

Quote

That is why I have specifically said "homosexuals" (gay males).

Can we get thordaddy on as an Uncommon Descent contributor too? Red Reader wants a slot, maybe thor can get one. That would the bomb.

   
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,12:38   

Quote
If you are going to deny that this "education" is taking place then maybe you need to do a little more research like I have.
See, that's why I keep asking for references, citations, links... specific examples of what you think is being done wrong.

All to no avail.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,13:12   

Russell,

You can't really believe that I NEED to provide you with " references, citations, [and] links," when you could easily provide those same things and refute my claims.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,13:46   

Now, that's just really dumb. Even by your standards. You want me to provide references to education that doesn't have you all in a lather, to refute your claims that some programs are inappropriate? Geez. Do you think before you type?

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1773
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,23:02   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 08 2006,18:12)
Russell,

You can't really believe that I NEED to provide you with " references, citations, [and] links," when you could easily provide those same things and refute my claims.

Bloody ####. You actually did not know why people wanted references. D'oh!

If you are going to cite suport for a claim you make, it is your responsibility to provide references. That way everyone can be sure they are using the same source.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2006,23:34   

Quote (stevestory @ April 08 2006,15:55)
Quote

That is why I have specifically said "homosexuals" (gay males).

Can we get thordaddy on as an Uncommon Descent contributor too? Red Reader wants a slot, maybe thor can get one. That would the bomb.

LOL

You have my vote too, steve.
Hey thor, since the word "homosexual" excludes females in your book, does it perhaps also include heterosexuals with multiple partners- and doctors? Because if so, I might agree with you. You never know.
:D

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,01:16   

Russell,

I apologize.  I thought you were asking for statistics concerning homosexuals and their overrepresentation in various diseases and pathologies.  There seems to be a lot of denial concerning this point.  But to answer your request...

stuff

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1773
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,02:06   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 09 2006,06:16)
Russell,

I apologize.  I thought you were asking for statistics concerning homosexuals and their overrepresentation in various diseases and pathologies.  There seems to be a lot of denial concerning this point.  But to answer your request...

stuff

Thordaddy,
Considering that link is to an organisation that profits (or apears to at first glance) from trying to "cure" homosexuals. Do you consider there might be a bit of bias?

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,08:12   

"stuff" indeed.

I see a whole lot of stuff there from a source that doesn't inspire much confidence in its objectivity. And - while there may be something linked to something linked to something there having to do with the issues we're talking about (morbidity and mortality) I haven't found anything except "morality" issues, a persecution complex that their position is given short shrift due to viewpoint bias, and a central notion that I find very much at odds with my perception of the data and the world around me - that a significant fraction of homosexuals can be "converted" into heterosexuals.

If there's something more specifically germane to this discussion, please point it out more specifically.

--------------
Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,09:43   

Russell and Stephen,

Is it your stance that homosexual advocates ARE NOT active within the public school systems in America both at the primary and secondary level?

What in those many examples of educating about homosexuality (gay lifestyle) did you disagree with?

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1773
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,09:58   

Quote (thordaddy @ April 09 2006,14:43)
Russell and Stephen,

Is it your stance that homosexual advocates ARE NOT active within the public school systems in America both at the primary and secondary level?

What in those many examples of educating about homosexuality (gay lifestyle) did you disagree with?

Thordaddy,

As I live in England I cannot answer your 1st question. As for you 2nd question, I am not certain what you are asking.

That link you gave contains many links. Some to actual scientific studies (eventually). The home site however is preaching that homosexuality is an illnes that can be cured. I would not be happy having that taught as a fact.

I do not think schools should encourage homosexuality BTW. But teaching that it is evil, sinfull or a sickness is also wrong.

So lets be more specific. What would you want schools to teach?

I would want something along the lines of. "A significant % of the human population are sexually atracted to the same sex. The majority of people are atracted to the oposite sex. Nobody should have to face ridicule or discrimination because of who they are atracted to."

Would you have a problem with that Thordaddy?

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,11:11   

Stephen Elliot,

Do have problems with drug and alcohol therapy?

Is there not empirical evidence for transitioning from the homosexual lifestyle?

Are American homosexuals not overrepresented in AIDS, STDs, etc.?

I don't think homosexuality has any place in education especially K-6th grade.  Good, bad or ugly.

BUT, if you are going to teach about "homosexuality" then the DETRIMENTAL and DEADLY EFFECTS due to the pratice of homosexuality should be at the FOREFRONT.  

Why are we deceiving young children about a topic that has PROVEN dangerous and deadly for a large contigent of its practitioners?

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,11:11   

Quote
What in those many examples of educating about homosexuality (gay lifestyle) did you disagree with?
First of all, your "stuff" link consists of sixty-some-odd articles, among which it's hard to find any that actually deal directly with the content of school curricula. Which is what we need to see here.

Second, the general message that seems to be the theme of that website and the organization that sponsors it is that homosexuality can be "cured" - a notion for which, as I've said repeatedly, I find very little support.

Finally, to pull one specific quote out of the hundreds of pages of articles there that I find emblematic of everything I disagree with, I strongly disagree with the implicit approval accorded this guy:
Quote
Teacher Richard Thompson at West High School in Tracy, California, reportedly told students in his class that homosexuality is unnatural and allegedly told a student during a private conversation that associating with homosexuals is as sinful as being gay.


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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,11:18   

Russell,

Since you have decided to bury your head in the sand, you must unbury it.

Did you read the entire article that you linked to?  Teaching 6 year olds about two daddies.  This is what our kids go to school for?

What is "natural" about homosexuality, I ask?  What is "normal" about homosexuality?  Are these descriptions scientifically-based positions or simply ideological positions?  I see no science in your position, but mere ideology.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,12:38   

Quote
Teaching 6 year olds about two daddies.  This is what our kids go to school for?
I guess at age six, the nature of families probably is a reasonable school subject. As I recall, my kid was learning the concept of "communities" at about that point, and the concept was extended from family to town to nation, etc. I see no particular problem with that. Do some kids have two mommies or two daddies? My understanding is that, yes, they do. Should that fact be part of the "curriculum" on family? Or should it be censored? I guess I lean toward not censoring it. Is that an "ideological" position? Could be. Maybe you're right.
Quote
What is "natural" about homosexuality, I ask?  What is "normal" about homosexuality?
That reminds me of an amusing interview on the Daily Show a little over a year ago. A penguinologist explains to fake news reporter Samantha Bee about the gay penguin phenomenon. Bee responds "Just because it happens in nature doesn't make it natural".  

But seriously...  It's true that sometimes a penguin, or a bonobo, or a human experiences sexual attraction toward a fellow penguin, bonobo, or human of its own sex. It happens more than rarely, and, once again, I guess I lean toward not censoring that fact. I don't think loading it up with a lot of guilt is particularly "scientific" or otherwise helpful.

Now, if schools are teaching that it's perfectly normal and natural to experience strong sexual attraction to a penguin, or a bonobo - of either sex - then I'm right there with you with my picket sign!

Quote
Are these descriptions scientifically-based positions or simply ideological positions?
That seems to me like something of a false choice. It's not "normal" to have a AB/Rh-negative blood type. But some people do. It's not "natural" to vaccinate your kids, but I highly recommend it. Are these "scientific" opinions or ideological?

Quote
I see no science in your position, but mere ideology.
What position is that? That I don't think it's appropriate for public school teachers  to be telling kids it's sinful to associate with certain other kids?

There's another thing about your NARTH website. They seem to be really down on female homosexuality, as well as male homosexuality. And, as we've discussed here, that's probably the least risky of "lifestyles". So, if your issue is about science and health and not just ideological, you'll disapprove of that at least as much as I do.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,13:14   

Thordaddy,

Do you think that if children are taught these statistics about homosexuality (and I don't know what they teach in the US but I was certainly taught that gays get more STDs), then a large number of men will decide not to become gay after all?

Do you disagree that if we also teach these statistics, then it is also OK to say if you think you are gay this does not automatically make you a sinner or a bad person?

Do you disagree that the attraction to the opposite sex is not a choice, and a person can then decide to live as a homosexual without descending into a life of drugs and promiscuous unprotected sex.

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,13:58   

Quote
I don't know what they teach in the US but I was certainly taught that gays get more STDs), then a large number of men will decide not to become gay after all?
Thordiddy might be interested to know, by the way, that I have personally taught these very statistics. (Not to high school students, but to medical students learning about infectious disease.)

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,14:09   

And let's not forget that it's important for future doctors to know which are high-risk groups for AIDS (and HBV, and HCV etc) and, more importantly, that they are going to be in one (if they follow a surgical specialty).

Like I've (pointlessly) asked thor before, I really hope that doesn't make surgeons "abnormal" in his eyes.

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,14:21   

Quote
I really hope that doesn't make surgeons "abnormal" in his eyes.
Well, surgeons actually are abnormal, but that's a whole 'nother story.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,14:28   

I knew a few medical students when I was doing my degree, and in our city homosexuals were behind immigrants and students for STDs percentage-wise.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,14:47   

Quote (Russell @ April 09 2006,19:21)
Quote
I really hope that doesn't make surgeons "abnormal" in his eyes.
Well, surgeons actually are abnormal, but that's a whole 'nother story.

Hey just wait a minute now...












...H-how did you know?

--------------
A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 4387
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,17:49   

Quote
Thordaddy: Do have problems with drug and alcohol therapy?

Is there not empirical evidence for transitioning from the homosexual lifestyle?

Are American homosexuals not overrepresented in AIDS, STDs, etc.?

I don't think homosexuality has any place in education especially K-6th grade.  Good, bad or ugly.

BUT, if you are going to teach about "homosexuality" then the DETRIMENTAL and DEADLY EFFECTS due to the pratice of homosexuality should be at the FOREFRONT.  

Why are we deceiving young children about a topic that has PROVEN dangerous and deadly for a large contigent of its practitioners?


And African-American males ages 18-29 are also HIGHLY-OVERREPRESENTATED in the same areas.  Do you think therefore we should stop teaching children in schools that all men are created equal?  For the FOURTH F*CKING time, correlation DOES NOT imply causation.

Thordaddy, you are either the most bigoted piece of sh*t to come down the pike in months, or the most stupid, or both.  How did you manage to totally ignore the studies that show that the increased risk health and social problems of gays are CAUSED in a large part to the discrimination, social ostracism, and threats of physical violence that gays are subjected to?  Sexual orientation does not cause the health problems, PREJUDICED ASSH*LES cause the health problems.

Here is the 2002 Australian Medical Association report AGAIN.  Read the d*mn thing, then tell me what it says about discrimination and its negative effect on health.

Quote
 
1.Sexual Diversity in Society
1.1 Homosexuality is defined as the sexual and emotional attraction to members of the same sex, and has existed in most societies for as long as sexual beliefs and practices have been recorded. The proportion of the population that is not exclusively heterosexual has been estimated at between 8 and 11 percent. This figure will naturally vary depending on the definitions used to describe the continuum of sexual identity that exists in our society.

1.2 Societal attitudes towards homosexuality have had a decisive impact on the extent to which individuals have been able to express their sexual orientation. In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association removed homosexuality from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Subsequently homosexuality was recognised as a form of sexual orientation or expression rather than a mental illness.2 This move by the medical professional was instrumental in improving the health and welfare of this population.

1.3 Strong family connections are important to the health and well being of individuals, and recently there has been greater recognition of the diversity of family structures that exist in our society. These family structures could include nuclear families, single parents, blended families from remarriages as well as gay and lesbian parents. Accurate statistics regarding the number of parents who are gay or lesbian is difficult to obtain, as this data is not routinely collected. However, the American Academy of Paediatrics states that ‘the weight of evidence gathered during several decades using diverse samples and methodologies is persuasive in demonstrating that there is no systematic difference between gay and nongay parents in emotional health, parenting skills, and attitudes towards parenting. No data have pointed to any risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with one or more gay parents.’

2. Discrimination
2.1 The term “heterosexism” has been used to describe the discrimination against gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender and intersex (GLBTI) populations. Heterosexism encompasses the belief that all people are and should be heterosexual and that alternative sexualities pose a threat to society. In this way heterosexism includes homophobia, a fear of alternative sexualities, and transphobia, a fear of alternative gender identities. It may also include a fear of intersex people who do not fit neatly into the binary categories of male and female.

2.2 Discrimination may be overt as in verbal abuse and physical violence or as covert as the silence that surrounds talking about GLBTI issues. This affects all members of society as individuals comply with gender role stereotypes in order to avoid homophobic discrimination. It is a constraint on human behavior that serves to diminish individual potential for development as well as diversity in our community.

2.3 The common experience of discrimination means that the health of GLBTI populations differs from that of the general population. This discrimination leads to health problems that are shared by this group as well as health problems specific to each subgroup. For GLBTI individuals the impact of this discrimination can lead to a poorer general health status, diminished utilization of healthcare facilities and a decreased quality of health services.

3. Shared Health Issues
3.1 Society’s acceptance of diverse sexualities and gender identities is a major factor in an individual’s successful transition through various lifestages. These significant lifestages include childhood, youth, middle age and ageing. As GLBTI people transition through these lifestages there are a number of health issues that are commonly faced.

3.2 Mental health problems are statistically over-represented in this population throughout life due to exposure to discriminatory behavior. One of the main groups affected by homophobia is same-sex attracted young people, particularly those living in rural areas where there is greater social isolation from GLBTI peers and role models. A consequence of this discrimination for GLBTI young people is that they have increased rates of homelessness, risk-taking behavior, depression, suicide and episodes of self-harm compared to their heterosexual cohorts.

3.3 The experience of violence is higher for the GLBTI community than the general population10 and a recent survey of the GLBTI community in Victoria indicated that “over 70% of respondents had been subject to an experience of public abuse in the past 5 years”. This experience may range from verbal abuse to physical attack. The experience or threat of violence has the potential to have a significant impact on an individual’s physical and mental health.

3.4 Patterns of drug and alcohol use within the GLBTI community are greater that that of the general population. The increased incidence of smoking and alcohol intake is also of concern in relation to cardiovascular risk factors. There is support for the theory linking individual patterns of drug and alcohol misuse with experiences of discrimination.  


AMA Position on Sexual Diversity and Health Issues

If you're so worried about the health issues of gays adversely affecting society, then stop being such a d*ckheaded bigot.

I apologize to the rest of the board for my strong language, but few things hit my hot button like willfully ignorant prejudice.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"
"I'm a female retired marine biologist"

Whizz-dumb from Joe "Sharon" Gallien, world's dumbest female impersonator YEC.

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,18:17   

again i ask, what do you folks get out of arguing with the mentally retarded?

just whittling knives?

what?

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1773
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,21:50   

Quote (sir_toejam @ April 09 2006,23:17)
again i ask, what do you folks get out of arguing with the mentally retarded?

just whittling knives?

what?

Fair point. It is frustrating arguing with somebody who is dishonest, willfuly ignorant and bigoted.

Nevertheless, I find it dificult to see his drivel without chalenging it.  T-d aparently wants to impose, what he considers morals onto your society. In the process, he is twisting evidence to try to make it suport his views. I doubt t-d will ever learn that is probably best to form views around evidence (as much and the best available).

On a brighter note, it is unusual to learn nothing at-all when arguing with these people.

I was very surprised about that NARTH organisation. Didn't suspect there would be many people who would still try to "cure" homosexuality. Sad fact but all knowledge is better to have than be ignorant of.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,23:04   

Diseases are caused by DISCRIMINATION?

It seems like diseases are AVOIDED BY USING DISCRIMINATION.

This is the most laughable and unscientific dogma I've come across in awhile, Mr. Aftershave.

Take your liberal talking points to an unscientific forum.

  
thordaddy



Posts: 486
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2006,23:11   

Russell,

You don't believe that because something exists it is "normal" and "natural?"

Wouldn't such a stance normalize and naturalize murder, rape, pedophile, necrophilia, AIDS, leprosy, etc.?

Certainly you can distinguish between natural and supernatural?

Certainly you can distinguish between normal and abnormal?

How could you do science otherwise?

  
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