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+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: Climate Genocide started by stevestory


Posted by: stevestory on Oct. 13 2018,13:42



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
LIFE AFTER WARMING OCT. 10, 2018

UN Says Climate Genocide Is Coming. It’s Actually Worse Than That.

By David Wallace-Wells

Just two years ago, amid global fanfare, the Paris climate accords were signed — initiating what seemed, for a brief moment, like the beginning of a planet-saving movement. But almost immediately, the international goal it established of limiting global warming to two degrees Celsius began to seem, to many of the world’s most vulnerable, dramatically inadequate; the Marshall Islands’ representative gave it a blunter name, calling two degrees of warming “genocide.”

The alarming new report you may have read about this week from the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change — which examines just how much better 1.5 degrees of warming would be than 2 — echoes the charge. “Amplifies” may be the better term. Hundreds of millions of lives are at stake, the report declares, should the world warm more than 1.5 degrees Celsius, which it will do as soon as 2040, if current trends continue. Nearly all coral reefs would die out, wildfires and heat waves would sweep across the planet annually, and the interplay between drought and flooding and temperature would mean that the world’s food supply would become dramatically less secure. Avoiding that scale of suffering, the report says, requires such a thorough transformation of the world’s economy, agriculture, and culture that “there is no documented historical precedent.” The New York Times declared that the report showed a “strong risk” of climate crisis in the coming decades; in Grist, Eric Holthaus wrote that “civilization is at stake.”

If you are alarmed by those sentences, you should be — they are horrifying. But it is, actually, worse than that — considerably worse. That is because the new report’s worst-case scenario is, actually, a best case. In fact, it is a beyond-best-case scenario. What has been called a genocidal level of warming is already our inevitable future. The question is how much worse than that it will get.

Barring the arrival of dramatic new carbon-sucking technologies, which are so far from scalability at present that they are best described as fantasies of industrial absolution, it will not be possible to keep warming below two degrees Celsius — the level the new report describes as a climate catastrophe. As a planet, we are coursing along a trajectory that brings us north of four degrees by the end of the century. The IPCC is right that two degrees marks a world of climate catastrophe. Four degrees is twice as bad as that. And that is where we are headed, at present — a climate hell twice as hellish as the one the IPCC says, rightly, we must avoid at all costs. But the real meaning of the report is not “climate change is much worse than you think,” because anyone who knows the state of the research will find nothing surprising in it. The real meaning is, “you now have permission to freak out.”
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

< link >
Posted by: Lethean on Oct. 13 2018,14:59

Hey, the President of the United States says that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by and on behalf of China so the Chinese can Make China Great Again. Also, vaccines cause autism. Many such cases.

I mean, he has all this access to the best scientists and advisors and intelligence and governmental whatnot so he should know. Right?

You aren't fooling anybody, Steve. So, nice try.
Posted by: stevestory on Oct. 14 2018,11:06

I was supposed to spend all last week and this upcoming week in Tallahassee repairing some equipment. Then the Giant Chinese Hoax arrived on Wednesday. Bigly. :-P
Posted by: stevestory on Oct. 20 2018,10:06

partly because politics is so horrible lately I've been paying more attention to Global Warming. The interesting aspect to me is Geoengineering--which to be clear I'm not a happy optimist about, I bet it will suck in numerous ways--but humans don't have the political ability to deal with something like GW until shit like that is necessary.
Posted by: stevestory on Oct. 21 2018,15:21



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is a Climate Science Legal Defense Fund. Take a moment to consider the implications of that fact. The inhabitants of what, under other circumstances, would be an obscure academic backwater need legal defense. Non-scientists have convinced themselves so thoroughly that these experts have to be wrong that they claim the whole field is swimming in fraud and have engaged in legal assaults to try to confirm their beliefs. The scientists need legal defense because their opponents are convinced they can provide evidence of the fraud—if only they could see every email the scientists have ever sent.

Climate scientists may suffer from an extreme example of this sort of vilification, but they're hardly alone. The US has had a long history of mistrust in highly educated professionals, but we seem to have shifted to a situation in which expertise has become both a disqualification and a reason for attack.

That's the central argument of Tom Nichols' recent book, The Death of Expertise, which has recently come out in a paperback edition. Nichols is a professor at the Naval War College and an expert himself, having done graduate studies about the former Soviet Union. While he's gained some prominence as a never-Trump conservative, the arguments in his book are evenhanded at distributing blame. And they make disturbing reading for anyone in science who's interested in engaging the public—especially in the science arena.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< READ MOAR >
Posted by: fnxtr on Oct. 21 2018,17:22

Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 21 2018,13:21)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
There is a Climate Science Legal Defense Fund. Take a moment to consider the implications of that fact. The inhabitants of what, under other circumstances, would be an obscure academic backwater need legal defense. Non-scientists have convinced themselves so thoroughly that these experts have to be wrong that they claim the whole field is swimming in fraud and have engaged in legal assaults to try to confirm their beliefs. The scientists need legal defense because their opponents are convinced they can provide evidence of the fraud—if only they could see every email the scientists have ever sent.

Climate scientists may suffer from an extreme example of this sort of vilification, but they're hardly alone. The US has had a long history of mistrust in highly educated professionals, but we seem to have shifted to a situation in which expertise has become both a disqualification and a reason for attack.

That's the central argument of Tom Nichols' recent book, The Death of Expertise, which has recently come out in a paperback edition. Nichols is a professor at the Naval War College and an expert himself, having done graduate studies about the former Soviet Union. While he's gained some prominence as a never-Trump conservative, the arguments in his book are evenhanded at distributing blame. And they make disturbing reading for anyone in science who's interested in engaging the public—especially in the science arena.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< READ MOAR >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"This anti-expert attitude, that's the way back to the cave." -- Brian Cox.
Posted by: Lethean on Oct. 22 2018,11:36


Posted by: fnxtr on Oct. 22 2018,17:56

Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 22 2018,09:36)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm really tempted to sign up for Twitter just so I can call him a fucking imbecile.
Posted by: stevestory on Nov. 01 2018,13:06

< Climate Change Keeps Looking Worse and Worse >
Posted by: stevestory on Dec. 29 2018,04:49

< how extreme weather is shrinking the planet >
Posted by: stevestory on Jan. 30 2019,09:29

Years ago a guy created a website that documented all 600-plus creationist arguments, with their refutations, so we don't have to keep arguing from scratch with those people. Looks like somebody did a similar thing with global warming. This site should be spread far and wide.

< https://www.skepticalscience.com/argumen....ent.php >
Posted by: stevestory on Jan. 30 2019,09:57

Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 22 2018,18:56)
Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 22 2018,09:36)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm really tempted to sign up for Twitter just so I can call him a fucking imbecile.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That idiocy continues:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

In the beautiful Midwest, windchill temperatures are reaching minus 60 degrees, the coldest ever recorded. In coming days, expected to get even colder. People can’t last outside even for minutes. What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!

9:28 PM · Jan 28, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: JohnW on Jan. 30 2019,12:43

Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 30 2019,07:57)
Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 22 2018,18:56)
Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 22 2018,09:36)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm really tempted to sign up for Twitter just so I can call him a fucking imbecile.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That idiocy continues:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

In the beautiful Midwest, windchill temperatures are reaching minus 60 degrees, the coldest ever recorded. In coming days, expected to get even colder. People can’t last outside even for minutes. What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!

9:28 PM · Jan 28, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


During the 2106 election debates, I mentioned to a friend that the Republican candidate was the daft old bugger who'd been sitting at the end of the bar since the Nixon administration.
Posted by: Texas Teach on Jan. 30 2019,17:28

Quote (JohnW @ Jan. 30 2019,12:43)
Quote (stevestory @ Jan. 30 2019,07:57)
Quote (fnxtr @ Oct. 22 2018,18:56)
 
Quote (Lethean @ Oct. 22 2018,09:36)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm really tempted to sign up for Twitter just so I can call him a fucking imbecile.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That idiocy continues:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

In the beautiful Midwest, windchill temperatures are reaching minus 60 degrees, the coldest ever recorded. In coming days, expected to get even colder. People can’t last outside even for minutes. What the hell is going on with Global Waming? Please come back fast, we need you!

9:28 PM · Jan 28, 2019 · Twitter for iPhone
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


---------------------QUOTE-------------------


During the 2106 election debates, I mentioned to a friend that the Republican candidate was the daft old bugger who'd been sitting at the end of the bar since the Nixon administration.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Ironic, since the daft old bugger’s recently indicted sidekick was part of the Nixon administration.
Posted by: stevestory on Feb. 02 2019,09:11

Well this is good news:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

A Record Number of Americans Understand That Global Warming Is Happening

The findings show that national comprehension of climate change as an urgent problem is very much on the rise.

BY ALLISON ECK FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 2019

A major new survey about attitudes toward climate change in the U.S. is giving experts and policymakers a chance to breathe a sigh of relief—and think about next steps.

Conducted by the Yale Program on Climate Change Communication and the George Mason University Center for Climate Change Communication, the survey found that 73 percent of Americans—a record high and a jump of 10 percentage points since 2015—believe global warming is real and is happening. In addition, 72 percent say that the issue of climate change is personally important to them, and 86 percent don’t think it’s too late to do something about it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< exxon propaganda finally wearing off >
Posted by: stevestory on Feb. 02 2019,09:12

So 27% still believe the dumb lies? That sounds exactly right, actually.  :p  :p  :p
Posted by: stevestory on Feb. 26 2019,17:10

< Ken Ham: Hell is the only kind of climate change AOC needs to worry about. >

:D  ;)
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 16 2019,09:44

I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 16 2019,10:29

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 16 2019,11:06

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,10:29)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am not claiming to have the answers, just that the way it has been politicised is harmful to people accepting it.

BTW, I do consider global warming/climate change to be a threat to global civilisation. I also think that there is no way to address it without a reduction in population. At least for the foreseeable future.
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 16 2019,12:18

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,12:06)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,10:29)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am not claiming to have the answers, just that the way it has been politicised is harmful to people accepting it.

BTW, I do consider global warming/climate change to be a threat to global civilisation. I also think that there is no way to address it without a reduction in population. At least for the foreseeable future.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


in the late 70s and early 80s Exxon scientists and Exxon executives had meetings where they discussed global warming, because they knew it was an existential threat to their industry. They decided that there were enough people out there who are scientifically illiterate, that if they spent a few million dollars in propaganda they could confuse the issue for the indefinite future and keep making money. They literally hired the same PR firms that the tobacco companies hired when they were pretending that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The carbon merchants have been politicizing this since I was in kindergarten.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 16 2019,12:52

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,12:18)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,12:06)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,10:29)
   
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am not claiming to have the answers, just that the way it has been politicised is harmful to people accepting it.

BTW, I do consider global warming/climate change to be a threat to global civilisation. I also think that there is no way to address it without a reduction in population. At least for the foreseeable future.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


in the late 70s and early 80s Exxon scientists and Exxon executives had meetings where they discussed global warming, because they knew it was an existential threat to their industry. They decided that there were enough people out there who are scientifically illiterate, that if they spent a few million dollars in propaganda they could confuse the issue for the indefinite future and keep making money. They literally hired the same PR firms that the tobacco companies hired when they were pretending that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The carbon merchants have been politicizing this since I was in kindergarten.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't doubt that. What I do doubt is that more taxes will solve anything WRT global warming.

As for the green new deal, all I can see that doing is causing massive harm to the USA, without doing very much to reduce global carbon emissions unless most of the world does the same. Is it even possible to fear down and rebuild almost every building in the USA within 10 years? I seriously doubt that.
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 16 2019,13:44

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,13:52)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,12:18)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,12:06)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,10:29)
   
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am not claiming to have the answers, just that the way it has been politicised is harmful to people accepting it.

BTW, I do consider global warming/climate change to be a threat to global civilisation. I also think that there is no way to address it without a reduction in population. At least for the foreseeable future.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


in the late 70s and early 80s Exxon scientists and Exxon executives had meetings where they discussed global warming, because they knew it was an existential threat to their industry. They decided that there were enough people out there who are scientifically illiterate, that if they spent a few million dollars in propaganda they could confuse the issue for the indefinite future and keep making money. They literally hired the same PR firms that the tobacco companies hired when they were pretending that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The carbon merchants have been politicizing this since I was in kindergarten.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't doubt that. What I do doubt is that more taxes will solve anything WRT global warming.

As for the green new deal, all I can see that doing is causing massive harm to the USA, without doing very much to reduce global carbon emissions unless most of the world does the same. Is it even possible to fear down and rebuild almost every building in the USA within 10 years? I seriously doubt that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think you might have been misled about what exactly the plan says.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 16 2019,14:11

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,13:44)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,13:52)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,12:18)
   
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,12:06)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 16 2019,10:29)
     
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,10:44)
I think one reason people reject climate change as reality is the way it has been politicised.
Look at the green new deal championed by AOC. Does anybody think that would be a good thing to implement?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's a vague set of initiatives that at least begins to deal with the problem on the scale it would require. If you have better ideas, we're all ears.

FWIW I don't think groups of humans are intelligent enough to deal with the problem successfully, and the next century will be a series of catastrophes.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am not claiming to have the answers, just that the way it has been politicised is harmful to people accepting it.

BTW, I do consider global warming/climate change to be a threat to global civilisation. I also think that there is no way to address it without a reduction in population. At least for the foreseeable future.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


in the late 70s and early 80s Exxon scientists and Exxon executives had meetings where they discussed global warming, because they knew it was an existential threat to their industry. They decided that there were enough people out there who are scientifically illiterate, that if they spent a few million dollars in propaganda they could confuse the issue for the indefinite future and keep making money. They literally hired the same PR firms that the tobacco companies hired when they were pretending that cigarettes don't cause cancer.

The carbon merchants have been politicizing this since I was in kindergarten.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't doubt that. What I do doubt is that more taxes will solve anything WRT global warming.

As for the green new deal, all I can see that doing is causing massive harm to the USA, without doing very much to reduce global carbon emissions unless most of the world does the same. Is it even possible to fear down and rebuild almost every building in the USA within 10 years? I seriously doubt that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think you might have been misled about what exactly the plan says.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Maybe I have. TBH, the only things I think I know about it are from AOC's announcements, I have not seen the actual document.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 16 2019,15:59

Hi Stephen! Long time no see.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 16 2019,16:09

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 16 2019,15:59)
Hi Stephen! Long time no see.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey Alan, been awhile. Guess I drifted away once I'D became irrelevant and traffic here slowed down.

Good to see you are still here
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 18 2019,03:42

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,11:09)
 
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 16 2019,15:59)
Hi Stephen! Long time no see.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey Alan, been awhile. Guess I drifted away once I'D became irrelevant and traffic here slowed down.

Good to see you are still here
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've become a bit irrelevant too but I know what you mean! :) It amazes me folks still talk about ID as if it hadn't followed in the footsteps of the Norwegian Blue.

Regarding climate change, I suspect we're too late and too in the thrall of vested interests to reverse the trend. Hope I'm wrong.

There's plenty of energy, just better ways of extracting and storing it are needed. Wave energy is fine in principle but problematic because of the extreme environment for the equipment, especially in the North Atlantic in winter. There's a lot of work needed if it could ever become mainstream.

I see UK are bringing in legislation to ensure heat pumps replace gas and oil as an energy source for home heating. Switching back to lime from portland cement as a construction material could help too.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 18 2019,15:13

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,03:42)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,11:09)
     
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 16 2019,15:59)
Hi Stephen! Long time no see.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey Alan, been awhile. Guess I drifted away once I'D became irrelevant and traffic here slowed down.

Good to see you are still here
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've become a bit irrelevant too but I know what you mean! :) It amazes me folks still talk about ID as if it hadn't followed in the footsteps of the Norwegian Blue.

Regarding climate change, I suspect we're too late and too in the thrall of vested interests to reverse the trend. Hope I'm wrong.

There's plenty of energy, just better ways of extracting and storing it are needed. Wave energy is fine in principle but problematic because of the extreme environment for the equipment, especially in the North Atlantic in winter. There's a lot of work needed if it could ever become mainstream.

I see UK are bringing in legislation to ensure heat pumps replace gas and oil as an energy source for home heating. Switching back to lime from portland cement as a construction material could help too.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reckon ID was always irrelevant, seemed like a threat back in the day.

Wave power may be usefull, tidal power would be my bet. Tidal is far more predictable/reliable as it is mostly astronomical driven rather than weather.

I would definitely like to see science funded better, both "blue-sky" and "research/target driven".

My 2c.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 18 2019,15:33

Double post. Feel free to delete.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 18 2019,15:34

< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
Posted by: Acartia_Bogart on Mar. 18 2019,16:25

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 18 2019,17:06

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,11:25)
   
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sure. Are there plans afoot?

ETA I see there are. < https://www.cbc.ca/news.......4754937 >

ETA2 I see they're not going well. < https://globalnews.ca/news.......damaged >

ETA3 I see this particular project has folded. < https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news....-257853 >
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 18 2019,18:18

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 18 2019,16:13)
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,03:42)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 16 2019,11:09)
     
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 16 2019,15:59)
Hi Stephen! Long time no see.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey Alan, been awhile. Guess I drifted away once I'D became irrelevant and traffic here slowed down.

Good to see you are still here
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've become a bit irrelevant too but I know what you mean! :) It amazes me folks still talk about ID as if it hadn't followed in the footsteps of the Norwegian Blue.

Regarding climate change, I suspect we're too late and too in the thrall of vested interests to reverse the trend. Hope I'm wrong.

There's plenty of energy, just better ways of extracting and storing it are needed. Wave energy is fine in principle but problematic because of the extreme environment for the equipment, especially in the North Atlantic in winter. There's a lot of work needed if it could ever become mainstream.

I see UK are bringing in legislation to ensure heat pumps replace gas and oil as an energy source for home heating. Switching back to lime from portland cement as a construction material could help too.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reckon ID was always irrelevant, seemed like a threat back in the day.

Wave power may be usefull, tidal power would be my bet. Tidal is far more predictable/reliable as it is mostly astronomical driven rather than weather.

I would definitely like to see science funded better, both "blue-sky" and "research/target driven".

My 2c.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ID was a threat. The Fundamentalist kooks who funded the Disco Tute paid millions to bankroll this scam. If the Creationists had been slick and sophisticated and also found a dumb and blind partisan nut of a judge --which DaveTard thought they had-- they could have won at least one court case and thrown the issue into confusion. Unfortunately for them, they had to be complete idiots at every step of the way, including taking their creationist textbook and global search-and-replacing "creationism" with "intelligent design", the board members publicly saying they were doing this to stand up for Jesus, etc.

but yeah, once Dembski saw the writing on the wall and bailed on testifying, and Behe humiliated himself on the stand, and a republican judge spent a hundred and twenty plus pages chewing them out for being obvious liars and scam artists, ID was BSOD.


Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 18 2019,18:22

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,17:25)
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And if you constructed an enormous object with a total density of slightly less than water, you could extract E=mgh from that, but then your problem is you only get two high tides a day.  :(
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 18 2019,18:31

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 18 2019,19:22)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,17:25)
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And if you constructed an enormous object with a total density of slightly less than water, you could extract E=mgh from that, but then your problem is you only get two high tides a day.  :(
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Solar Thermal has lagged way behind PV, especially with the price of PV falling every year, but it's the only technology that has a chance of making a dent.
Posted by: clamboy on Mar. 19 2019,00:11

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,16:25)
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, once those sciency types determine when its wavelength equals its frequency, then unlimited free energy, folks!

But really, the efficiencies are, to my understanding, still lagging way behind the best we currently have, combined gas-coal plants. These can reach efficiencies of well over 60%, or so I understand, and I know of nothing else on the market that can come through anywhere near as well at the present time. Am I mistaken?
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 19 2019,02:54

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 18 2019,13:31)
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 18 2019,19:22)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,17:25)
 
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And if you constructed an enormous object with a total density of slightly less than water, you could extract E=mgh from that, but then your problem is you only get two high tides a day.  :(
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Solar Thermal has lagged way behind PV, especially with the price of PV falling every year, but it's the only technology that has a chance of making a dent.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, I dunno. As I said, there's plenty of energy out there. A pluralistic approach at capture and storage seems most effective.
Posted by: Bob O'H on Mar. 19 2019,03:49

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,17:06)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Mar. 18 2019,11:25)
   
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 18 2019,15:34)
< The Rance tidal power station > has recouped its development and building costs and is cheaper to run than nuclear. But how many other suitable sites are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Bay of Fundy is the obvious location. 53 foot tidal amplitude at the top of the bay. Largest in the world.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sure. Are there plans afoot?

ETA I see there are. < https://www.cbc.ca/news.......4754937 >

ETA2 I see they're not going well. < https://globalnews.ca/news.......damaged >

ETA3 I see this particular project has folded. < https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news.......-257853 >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The idea of building a tidal barrage on the Severn in the UK is occasionally floated, but usually sinks quite quickly. Here in Norway most power is hydro (we export our evil contamination), but there's work on off-shore wind power going on. Our electric company tried selling us solar panels, but that was when I had some masters students looking at power consumption, and of course there's a negative correlation with solar radiation and power consumption(*).

ATM the UK could probably get most of its energy by recycling all of the hot air being produced in the Houses of Parliament.

(*) this is true on the other side of the fjord, at least.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 19 2019,07:44

Ah, Norway!

An example to us all!

Their management of oil and gas reserves, the fjords, the parrots.

And the Norway option for Brexit. Mind you, why isn't Norway a full member of the EU?

[< Norway/EU >
Posted by: Bob O'H on Mar. 20 2019,03:33

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 19 2019,07:44)
Ah, Norway!

An example to us all!

Their management of oil and gas reserves, the fjords, the parrots.

And the Norway option for Brexit. Mind you, why isn't Norway a full member of the EU?

[< Norway/EU >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think they're worried that the EU will nick all of their parrots.

I live on the side of a fjord, and < here's a photo of the view from my office >.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 20 2019,05:06

Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 19 2019,22:33)
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 19 2019,07:44)
Ah, Norway!

An example to us all!

Their management of oil and gas reserves, the fjords, the parrots.

And the Norway option for Brexit. Mind you, why isn't Norway a full member of the EU?

[< Norway/EU >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think they're worried that the EU will nick all of their parrots.

I live on the side of a fjord, and < here's a photo of the view from my office >.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Lucky bugger! :)
Posted by: KevinB on Mar. 20 2019,13:04

Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 20 2019,03:33)
 
Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 19 2019,07:44)
Ah, Norway!

An example to us all!

Their management of oil and gas reserves, the fjords, the parrots.

And the Norway option for Brexit. Mind you, why isn't Norway a full member of the EU?

[< Norway/EU >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think they're worried that the EU will nick all of their parrots.

I live on the side of a fjord, and < here's a photo of the view from my office >.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


All you need is the right badge



and you can be a Fjord Prefect.
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 21 2019,19:38

< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 28 2019,18:40

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2019,19:38)
< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Do you dislike president Trump?
Posted by: Occam's Aftershave on Mar. 28 2019,19:03

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 28 2019,18:40)
 
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2019,19:38)
< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Do you dislike president Trump?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Trump is a compulsive liar, racial bigot, misogynist, criminal tax evader, harmed the country immeasurably by disregarding security protocols and spuriously issuing TS clearances to his family, scientific illiterate who gutted climate and environmental protections and research, wants to cut social security and health care for the poor, and who gave himself and his rich GOP donors a huge tax break which will balloon the Federal deficit to over $1 trillion.

What's not to dislike?
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 28 2019,19:32

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Mar. 28 2019,20:03)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 28 2019,18:40)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2019,19:38)
< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Do you dislike president Trump?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Trump is a compulsive liar, racial bigot, misogynist, criminal tax evader, harmed the country immeasurably by disregarding security protocols and spuriously issuing TS clearances to his family, scientific illiterate who gutted climate and environmental protections and research, wants to cut social security and health care for the poor, and who gave himself and his rich GOP donors a huge tax break which will balloon the Federal deficit to over $1 trillion.

What's not to dislike?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


and since, with the help of his tax cuts for the superwealthy, the budget deficit is at a record high, he just proposed a budget that eliminates all funding for the Special Olympics.
Posted by: fnxtr on Mar. 28 2019,21:10

Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 28 2019,17:32)
Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Mar. 28 2019,20:03)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 28 2019,18:40)
   
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2019,19:38)
< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Do you dislike president Trump?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Trump is a compulsive liar, racial bigot, misogynist, criminal tax evader, harmed the country immeasurably by disregarding security protocols and spuriously issuing TS clearances to his family, scientific illiterate who gutted climate and environmental protections and research, wants to cut social security and health care for the poor, and who gave himself and his rich GOP donors a huge tax break which will balloon the Federal deficit to over $1 trillion.

What's not to dislike?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


and since, with the help of his tax cuts for the superwealthy, the budget deficit is at a record high, he just proposed a budget that eliminates all funding for the Special Olympics.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


and NEA, CPB, etc., etc.

We dodged a bullet up here after Harper floated his "barbaric cultural practices hotline".

First they came for the Muslims, and we said "Not this time, motherfuckers."
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 29 2019,05:14

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Mar. 28 2019,19:03)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 28 2019,18:40)
     
Quote (stevestory @ Mar. 21 2019,19:38)
< Trump Assembles A Confederacy of Dummies to Stymie Climate Change >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Do you dislike president Trump?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Trump is a compulsive liar, racial bigot, misogynist, criminal tax evader, harmed the country immeasurably by disregarding security protocols and spuriously issuing TS clearances to his family, scientific illiterate who gutted climate and environmental protections and research, wants to cut social security and health care for the poor, and who gave himself and his rich GOP donors a huge tax break which will balloon the Federal deficit to over $1 trillion.

What's not to dislike?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What has he lied about? I have certainly heard him use hyperbole but cannot think of a flat-out lie.

How is he a racial bigot? Looking at photographs of his workforce from way before he went into politics, they certainly look like a diverse bunch. Forcing/suing clubs to remove bans on Jewish and black members would be kinda strange for a racist to do.

Employing women in high level management seems an unlikely thing for a misogynist to do.

I am unaware of him doing anything illegal wrt his taxes. The only thing I can recall about his taxes was when the loony Rachel Madow pulled that hilariously backfiring stunt on her tv show.

Security, I know nothing about him doing dodgy stuff there. I do think though that if there was even a shred of evidence, we would have all heard about it. Pretty much every media outlet seems desperate to trumpet bad publicity regarding Trump.

He probably is scientifically illiterate by your standards, but what % of society is not?

Don't know about his cutting welfare, I have not seen that story.

Not sure about what he wants to do regarding healthcare, could you give a link please?

Can't tax reductions be a good thing? Is it not possible that a company making higher profits might employ more people? Or pay higher wages?

As an outsider looking in, America seems to be booming with Trump as president.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 29 2019,15:22

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 29 2019,00:14)
Stephen:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stephen:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What has he lied about? I have certainly heard him use hyperbole but cannot think of a flat-out lie.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm an outsider but I suggest you have a look at < Wikipedia > for a start. Whether they are lies is a, to me, not very important question. That they are false should be cause for concern.
< Also see here >

< And here. >
Posted by: Alan Fox on Mar. 29 2019,15:27

Is hydrogen an answer to energy storage? Seems there is an ongoing experiment on the Orkney Islands.

< BBC on hydrogen in Orkney >
Posted by: fnxtr on Mar. 29 2019,17:24

Quote (Alan Fox @ Mar. 29 2019,13:22)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 29 2019,00:14)
Stephen:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stephen:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What has he lied about? I have certainly heard him use hyperbole but cannot think of a flat-out lie.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I'm an outsider but I suggest you have a look at < Wikipedia > for a start. Whether they are lies is a, to me, not very important question. That they are false should be cause for concern.
< Also see here >

< And here. >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You and I call it lying.

In the business world it's known as marketing.
Posted by: Cubist on Mar. 29 2019,23:35

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 29 2019,05:14)
How is (Trump) a racial bigot?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I dunno… maybe the fact that he called for the execution of the Central Park Five (five black dudes who were found innocent of raping a woman in NYC's Central Park)? How about the fact that he was endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan—is that sufficient evidence to support the claim that Trump is racist?
Posted by: stevestory on Mar. 30 2019,08:27


Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 30 2019,17:13

Quote (Cubist @ Mar. 29 2019,23:35)
 
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 29 2019,05:14)
How is (Trump) a racial bigot?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I dunno… maybe the fact that he called for the execution of the Central Park Five (five black dudes who were found innocent of raping a woman in NYC's Central Park)? How about the fact that he was endorsed by the Ku Klux Klan—is that sufficient evidence to support the claim that Trump is racist?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Not really.

IIRC, Trump calling for the death penalty was in response to the viciousness of the attack, not the colour of the skin of the people believed to have carried it out.

Being supported by the kkk says nothing about trump. He does not control who claims to support him. If you are referring to David Duke, it would be worthwhile watching his full interview with Dinesh D'souza. Anyhoo, kkk people claiming to support Trump is one thing. Hot-sauce Hillary describing a kkk member as a friend and mentor is a whole new level. She also spoke well of Margaret "black people are weeds" Sanger.

I also watched an interview featuring the founder of B.E.T. The first black billionaire in the USA. He had quite a few positive things to say about president Trump. As did Ben Carson and a fair few other successful black people. So no, right now I do not think Trump is racist.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on April 03 2019,09:24



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Hot-sauce Hillary describing a kkk member as a friend and mentor is a whole new level.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You're referring to Robert Byrd who at the time Hillary Clinton made those comments was a recently deceased *former* member of the KKK and who was eulogized thus by the NAACP?

     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

NAACP MOURNS THE PASSING OF
U.S. SENATOR ROBERT BYRD
Longest Serving Member of Congress Became a
Champion for Civil Rights and Liberties  

WASHINGTON, DC – The NAACP is saddened by the passing of United States Senator Robert Byrd. Byrd, the longest serving member of congress was first elected to the U.S. House from in 1952 and was elected Senator in 1958. Byrd passed away this morning at the age of 92.

“Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation,” stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous.  “Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.

“Senator Byrd came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda, doing well on the NAACP Annual Civil Rights Report Card. He stood with us on many issues of crucial importance to our members from the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, the historic health care legislation of 2010 and his support for the Hate Crimes Prevention legislation,” stated Hilary O. Shelton, Director of the NAACP Washington Bureau and Senior Vice President for Advocacy and Policy. “Senator Byrd was a master of the Senate Rules, and helped strategize passage of legislation that helped millions of Americans. He will be sorely missed.”
Founded in 1909, the NAACP is the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization. Its members throughout the United States and the world are the premier advocates for civil rights in their communities, conducting voter mobilization and monitoring equal opportunity in the public and private sectors.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Is that the guy? Or did you have somebody else in mind?

Tu quoque is not a good argumentive method, and tu quoque based on misleading, false, or entirely invented material is even more pathetic than in its usual application, which is quite the trick.
Posted by: JohnW on April 03 2019,10:42

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 03 2019,07:24)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Hot-sauce Hillary describing a kkk member as a friend and mentor is a whole new level.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You're referring to Robert Byrd who at the time Hillary Clinton made those comments was a recently deceased *former* member of the KKK and who was eulogized thus by the NAACP?

     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

NAACP MOURNS THE PASSING OF
U.S. SENATOR ROBERT BYRD
Longest Serving Member of Congress Became a
Champion for Civil Rights and Liberties  

WASHINGTON, DC – The NAACP is saddened by the passing of United States Senator Robert Byrd. Byrd, the longest serving member of congress was first elected to the U.S. House from in 1952 and was elected Senator in 1958. Byrd passed away this morning at the age of 92.

“Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation,” stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous.  “Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.

“Senator Byrd came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda, doing well on the NAACP Annual Civil Rights Report Card. He stood with us on many issues of crucial importance to our members from the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, the historic health care legislation of 2010 and his support for the Hate Crimes Prevention legislation,” stated Hilary O. Shelton, Director of the NAACP Washington Bureau and Senior Vice President for Advocacy and Policy. “Senator Byrd was a master of the Senate Rules, and helped strategize passage of legislation that helped millions of Americans. He will be sorely missed.”
Founded in 1909, the NAACP is the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization. Its members throughout the United States and the world are the premier advocates for civil rights in their communities, conducting voter mobilization and monitoring equal opportunity in the public and private sectors.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Is that the guy? Or did you have somebody else in mind?

Tu quoque is not a good argumentive method, and tu quoque based on misleading, false, or entirely invented material is even more pathetic than in its usual application, which is quite the trick.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm not impressed with the "but he has a black friend" defence, either.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on April 03 2019,12:16

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ April 03 2019,09:24)
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Hot-sauce Hillary describing a kkk member as a friend and mentor is a whole new level.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You're referring to Robert Byrd who at the time Hillary Clinton made those comments was a recently deceased *former* member of the KKK and who was eulogized thus by the NAACP?

         

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

NAACP MOURNS THE PASSING OF
U.S. SENATOR ROBERT BYRD
Longest Serving Member of Congress Became a
Champion for Civil Rights and Liberties  

WASHINGTON, DC – The NAACP is saddened by the passing of United States Senator Robert Byrd. Byrd, the longest serving member of congress was first elected to the U.S. House from in 1952 and was elected Senator in 1958. Byrd passed away this morning at the age of 92.

“Senator Byrd reflects the transformative power of this nation,” stated NAACP President and CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous.  “Senator Byrd went from being an active member of the KKK to a being a stalwart supporter of the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights Act and many other pieces of seminal legislation that advanced the civil rights and liberties of our country.

“Senator Byrd came to consistently support the NAACP civil rights agenda, doing well on the NAACP Annual Civil Rights Report Card. He stood with us on many issues of crucial importance to our members from the reauthorization of the Voting Rights Act, the historic health care legislation of 2010 and his support for the Hate Crimes Prevention legislation,” stated Hilary O. Shelton, Director of the NAACP Washington Bureau and Senior Vice President for Advocacy and Policy. “Senator Byrd was a master of the Senate Rules, and helped strategize passage of legislation that helped millions of Americans. He will be sorely missed.”
Founded in 1909, the NAACP is the nation's oldest and largest civil rights organization. Its members throughout the United States and the world are the premier advocates for civil rights in their communities, conducting voter mobilization and monitoring equal opportunity in the public and private sectors.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Is that the guy? Or did you have somebody else in mind?

Tu quoque is not a good argumentive method, and tu quoque based on misleading, false, or entirely invented material is even more pathetic than in its usual application, which is quite the trick.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes you are correct, that is who I was referring to.

ETA. I changed my mind about evolution. I went from being pro-I.D. To accepting evolution. Based on the evidence presented.

I changed my mind about climate change, based on the evidence presented. I would rather believe we are not affecting climate but accept that we are.

I am pretty sure I could believe Trump was racist if the same/similar level of evidence was shown.
Posted by: Henry J on April 03 2019,14:16

But if climate was changing as fast as it is due to things totally out of human control, wouldn't that be scarier?
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on April 04 2019,13:23

Quote (Henry J @ April 03 2019,14:16)
But if climate was changing as fast as it is due to things totally out of human control, wouldn't that be scarier?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Probably, I can't see how it could be less worying.

That said, if it is entirely man-made and we fail to prevent it, that is kinda damming of us as a species.
Posted by: stevestory on Sep. 26 2019,17:04

Good brief history of the 200 years of science behind global warming:

< https://skepticalscience.com/history....ce.html >
Posted by: stevestory on Sep. 28 2019,11:56

< Crank Global Warming Denial at the Creationist Museum > big surprise.
end


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