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  Topic: The Skeptical Zone, with Lizzie< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2019,00:20   

As Rich pointed out around that time, it was hotshoe herself who (gratuitously) brought gender into the moderation discussion with comments like...
Quote (hotshoe @ ,)
Jesus fucking christ. Goddamned dudebro atheist assholes. People like the whole bunch of you are what give atheism a bad name.

...and...
Quote (hotshoe @ ,)
Notice the scumwad dudebro behavior which keiths demonstrates,completely without excuse.

Rich responded:
Quote (Richardthughes @ ,)
Feel free to bring in gender for no reason whatsoever and blame Patrick. Name calling too, please.


Edited by keiths on April 02 2019,22:31

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2019,00:44   

Quote (keiths @ April 02 2019,22:06)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 02 2019,21:19)
Quote (keiths @ April 02 2019,21:44)
Patrick asks Alan to point out the supposed misogyny.

Alan links to a comment from hotshoe that neither demonstrates, nor even attempts to demonstrate, that she was being treated misogynistically.

He also makes a vague reference to "the environs" of that comment without pointing out any misogyny therein.

In support of his "three misogynists" accusation, he writes
Quote
The reference was to your, Patrick and keiths's constructive dismissal of hotshoe, TSZ's last female contributor.


...as if disagreeing with a woman were synonymous with misogyny, and as if her being the "last female contributor" meant that we should treat her differently from everyone else at TSZ.

Quote
I regret missing that episode till it was too late to salvage.


As if hotshoe were some delicate flower who, being female, needed special protection from the likes of Alan, of all people.

She was frustrated because she didn't get her way.  She left of her own volition.  It wasn't misogyny, which is why Alan can't point to any.

The misogyny of lower expectations.

Yes, and a failed attempt at "virtue signaling".  We disagreed with a woman, so we must all be misogynists, according to the self-righteous Alan.

What a twit.


I also love Alan's reference to "constructive dismissal", as if hotshoe were an employee who had been treated unfairly and had resigned in protest.

Her comment was treated exactly the same as mine, Alan.  Neil decided to leave both comments in place, and Patrick agreed.

Go ahead and explain to us how that amounts to her "constructive dismissal".

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2019,08:44   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 03 2019,00:19)
The misogyny of lower expectations.

Mix with Alan's white-knighting, garnish with some unfounded accusations, and you've got yourself a tasty SJW cocktail.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2019,20:13   

I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2019,02:34   

Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,18:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

We're still waiting for you to support your allegations, Alan.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 09 2019,08:49   

Quote (keiths @ April 09 2019,03:34)
Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,18:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

We're still waiting for you to support your allegations, Alan.

It’s only been a week.  He’s probably still working on justifying ignoring Lizzie’s explicit instructions, banning you for 30 days despite you not breaking any rules, putting me in pre-moderation despite me not breaking any rules, ignoring a threat to dox a TSZ participant, ignoring the actual doxxing of a TSZ participant for days, failing to enforce that bannable violation of a clearly written rule, and removing another moderator despite no rule granting that authority.  The poor fellow is barely able to spare a moment to move non-rule-violating comments to Guano and turn a blind eye while his fellow admins do the same (and close active threads, despite the rules).

Building the personal integrity required to either support or retract an unfounded, libelous slur takes time.  Alan’s a busy guy.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1478
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 15 2019,12:14   

Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,15:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

I think I have. I do think of you three as the three misogynists. It is intended as an insult, as is your "white knighting SJW". If you think I can libel pseudonymous internet account holders by mentioning my thoughts about them, then sue and be damned.

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2019,00:40   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,10:14)
Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,15:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

I think I have.

You haven't, and I've addressed that already:
Quote
Patrick asks Alan to point out the supposed misogyny.

Alan links to a comment from hotshoe that neither demonstrates, nor even attempts to demonstrate, that she was being treated misogynistically.

He also makes a vague reference to "the environs" of that comment without pointing out any misogyny therein.

In support of his "three misogynists" accusation, he writes
Quote
The reference was to your, Patrick and keiths's constructive dismissal of hotshoe, TSZ's last female contributor.

...as if disagreeing with a woman were synonymous with misogyny, and as if her being the "last female contributor" meant that we should treat her differently from everyone else at TSZ.

Quote
I regret missing that episode till it was too late to salvage.

As if hotshoe were some delicate flower who, being female, needed special protection from the likes of Alan, of all people.

She was frustrated because she didn't get her way.  She left of her own volition.  It wasn't misogyny, which is why Alan can't point to any.

No wonder you ran away for two weeks.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2019,00:57   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,10:14)
I do think of you three as the three misogynists. It is intended as an insult, as is your "white knighting SJW".

Patrick put it much more eloquently than you just did:
Quote
Mix with Alan's white-knighting, garnish with some unfounded accusations, and you've got yourself a tasty SJW cocktail.

The best part is that Patrick's insult is accurate and supported by the evidence.  Your response is to make shit up, as underscored by your inability to point to any actual misogyny. Because it's an obvious lie, it's completely ineffective as an insult.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2019,01:11   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,10:14)
If you think I can libel pseudonymous internet account holders by mentioning my thoughts about them, then sue and be damned.

Who said anything about suing for libel?  You're the doofus who runs around censoring people, not Rich, Patrick, or me.

I don't want to silence you.  When you open your mouth, you reinforce the truths I've been telling about you.  All I have to do is sit back and point it out.

As in this case.  You've already admitted that you have a lying problem.  This false misogyny accusation just confirms it.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 16 2019,13:50   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,13:14)
Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,15:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

I think I have.

You have not.  Please cite the specific comments made by each of us that contain misogynistic statements.  If you cannot, have the decency to retract your baseless accusations.
Quote
I do think of you three as the three misogynists.

Think what you like, but when you make your thoughts public you have a duty to support them.
Quote
It is intended as an insult, as is your "white knighting SJW".

The difference is that you have clearly demonstrated your white knighting behavior, in this very thread.  Rich, Keith, and I have not demonstrated misogyny here or at TSZ.
Quote
If you think I can libel pseudonymous internet account holders by mentioning my thoughts about them, then sue and be damned.

I see that you have repeated your defamatory allegations at TSZ and linked here.  Given that my real name and email address are available there, you've clearly demonstrated that the concerns over libelous content in keiths' case were no more than a smokescreen to cover your personal vendetta against him.  Of course, we knew that anyway.

I'm married to a woman and am the father of daughters, so I take your slurs seriously.  Do you have the integrity to support your aspersions or retract them?

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2019,11:02   

It occurs to me that this is a great opportunity for DNA Jock to demonstrate his commitment to the safety of TSZ.  Alan is both an EU resident and a site administrator (after his little coup, he's effectively the site owner).  He has made completely unfounded, defamatory comments about not just one but three people, two of whom are easily identifiable in the real world.  This poses far greater risk to TSZ than what keiths, a US citizen with no official role at the site, did.

The appropriate response, based on Alan's past behavior, would be to ban Alan for 30 days and demote him to contributor status upon his return.  He set the precedent, he should live with it.

Edited by Patrick on April 17 2019,13:17

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11163
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2019,20:03   

Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,12:14)
Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,15:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

I think I have. I do think of you three as the three misogynists. It is intended as an insult, as is your "white knighting SJW". If you think I can libel pseudonymous internet account holders by mentioning my thoughts about them, then sue and be damned.

That's nice of you to throw insults around, Alan. Have I ever insulted you?

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 17 2019,21:58   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 17 2019,18:03)
Quote (Alan Fox @ April 15 2019,12:14)
Quote (keiths @ April 03 2019,15:13)
I see that Alan still hasn't supported his allegations of misogyny.

Has he run away again?

I think I have. I do think of you three as the three misogynists. It is intended as an insult, as is your "white knighting SJW". If you think I can libel pseudonymous internet account holders by mentioning my thoughts about them, then sue and be damned.

That's nice of you to throw insults around, Alan. Have I ever insulted you?

You did something that's far worse in Alan's eyes:  you criticized his performance as a moderator.

Remember, Alan is the guy who by his own admission banned me for 30 days because I was criticizing the moderators.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 18 2019,08:50   

I just swung by TSZ's Moderation Issues to get screen captures of Alan's unfounded defamatory comments.  I noticed that DNA Jock pointed out a comment I made, presumably to provide support for Alan's baseless slurs.  If you actually read that for context, Jock, you'd realize that I was making fun of Mung, not hotshoe.  The meme hasn't aged well, but you can search the web for Chris Crocker and "Leave Britney alone!" to get the history.

Speaking of DNA Jock, he also dropped this pile of . . . nonsense:
 
Quote
I am disappointed to see Patrick use the relative safety of AtBC to promulgate rubbish about libel that he KNOWS to be false.

Relative safety?  Jock and anyone else is free to come here to discuss TSZ without the risk of being censored.  The same cannot be said of TSZ.  (That reminds me of another site . . . right on the tip of my tongue . . . .)

To answer you, Jock, the reason why the situation is different in Alan's case is that he and the site are both under EU jurisdiction.  That means a UK court is much more likely to accept a libel case than if both the person complaining and the alleged defamer were in the US.  Combined with him abusing his privileges to take over TSZ, the risk to the site is much higher than in the keiths/Swamidass situation, even if keiths had defamed Swamidass.  By the standard you used to ban keiths for 30 days, you should do the same to Alan.  It would be hypocritical to do otherwise.

Alan could, of course, demonstrate some integrity by retracting his defamatory statements and apologizing.  Thus far it doesn't appear he has the character to do so.

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2019,10:58   

DNA Jock continues to avoid the core issue in response to my explanation "To answer you, Jock, the reason why the situation is different in Alan’s case is that he and the site are both under EU jurisdiction. That means a UK court is much more likely to accept a libel case than if both the person complaining and the alleged defamer were in the US."
   
Quote
Say what? That’s a moronic response.
We were talking about the legal exposure faced by the website operator, not the alleged defamer. I suspect that a court would be MORE likely to hear a case against the operator if the defamer were outside their jurisdiction.

That's simply not the situation.  While the UK is still a libel haven, they have tightened up their rules.  If the website owner complies with the law's requirement to provide any available contact details about the accused, and both the accuser and accused are outside of the UK, it's very unlikely that a UK court will take the case.

(Obligatory disclaimer:  I am not a lawyer.  I do work with a number of EU lawyers on GDPR and related issues.)
   
Quote
As I explained to you last summer, the website operator can discharge their legal obligations quite easily, if they can SUCCESSFULLY identify the alleged defamer. Pretty easy for Lizzie to ID Alan, I reckon; keiths, on the other hand, has been more private, but I expect it is doable.

Not that I needed that explained, but fine.  I agree.  That demonstrates further that your "concern" about the risk to TSZ was nothing more than a flimsy excuse to settle a personal score against keiths.
   
Quote
All that aside, the primary difference remains: the “honest opinion” defense, but I do not expect you (or phoodoo) to be able to understand that.

Unlike keiths' post, Alan's accusations go beyond "honest opinion."  He has made per se defamatory statements about three people, two of whom are easily identifiable in the real world.  He is the de facto operator of the site, after choosing to remove an admin appointed by the putative owner.  His behavior poses a far greater legal risk to TSZ than anything keiths did.

Given that, you have two options.  You can apply the same standard you claimed to apply to keiths and ban Alan for 30 days, or you can implicitly admit that your abuse of keiths was personally motivated and that you are a hypocrite.

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 19 2019,11:00   

DNA Jock continues to throw mud, hoping something will stick.

 
Quote
Separately, I am saddened that your defense against the misogyny charge is that when you sought to make fun of Mung, you likened him to a hysterical gender-bending gay man.
Oh, that’s so much better.


You really need to look into the history of that meme before letting your emotions control what you write.  Chris Crocker is a comic.  The "Leave Britney alone!" video was an act.  I used it to make fun of Mung by comparing his comments to truly over the top histrionics.

By the way, I didn't miss the fact that you're desperately trying to get anything offensive to stick because neither you nor Alan have any support for his claims of misogyny.  I'm disappointed -- you're usually more rational than that (aside from when you act as an admin).
 
Quote
FYI I can log in at AtBC but get a “Sorry, you do not have permission to reply to that topic ” if I try to comment. I never got a response when I asked about that. So yes, relative safety.

I suspect the AtBC operators will get around to addressing that.  They're usually quite responsive.

There is no way I'll participate at TSZ until Lizzie deals with the abuses by you, Alan, and Neil.  You've demonstrated that you can't be trusted.  If you want to discuss this in an open forum, I'm more than happy to do so.

ETA:  I see that DNA Jock has joined Alan in making defamatory statements at TSZ:
 
Quote
Patrick’s use of the image was homophobic, transphobic, AND misogynistic, Crocker’s genitalia notwithstanding.

So much for his concern about legal risks to the site.

Edited by Patrick on April 19 2019,12:00

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11163
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2019,07:01   

Is TSZ folding? That would be a shame, the current shitshow notwithstanding.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 24 2019,11:01   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 24 2019,05:01)
Is TSZ folding? That would be a shame, the current shitshow notwithstanding.

Alan seems to want that.  He keeps talking about shutting the site down and archiving everything.

I haven't seen any evidence that Lizzie is on board with that idea, however.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2019,12:25   

Quote (keiths @ April 24 2019,12:01)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 24 2019,05:01)
Is TSZ folding? That would be a shame, the current shitshow notwithstanding.

Alan seems to want that.  He keeps talking about shutting the site down and archiving everything.

I haven't seen any evidence that Lizzie is on board with that idea, however.

I just read through that discussion thread.  Does Alan really think that TSZ can't continue without him?  It definitely works better when Lizzie is there, but that's partly because of the abuses by Alan, Neil, and DNA Jock, none of whom support her vision for the site.  I find myself disappointed in DNA Jock in particular.  He used to be on the side of freedom of expression.  Alan's never been strong on that or skepticism in general, so his behavior is less of a surprise (I doubt he'll ever demonstrate the integrity to defend his defamatory statements).

In the past I've jokingly referred to TSZ as Lizzie's experiment, but I'm starting to think that might be the case.  Start a site dedicated to the principle of free speech and see how long it takes for people given tiny amounts of power to demonstrate their petty authoritarianism.

I'd very much like to see Lizzie return and build TSZ back up.  Intelligent design creationism is dead, but her goals weren't limited to that one issue:
 
Quote
My motivation for starting the site has been the experience of trying to discuss religion, politics, evolution, the Mind/Brain problem, creationism, ethics, exit polls, probability, intelligent design, and many other topics in venues where positions are strongly held and feelings run high.

There are a lot of topics where strange bedfellows might be found.

Edited by Patrick on April 25 2019,13:27

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11163
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2019,19:59   

I think the regulars would cover the expense, if that’s an issue.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 25 2019,20:40   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 25 2019,17:59)
I think the regulars would cover the expense, if that’s an issue.

I don't think it's an issue.  Lizzie has said that it isn't a hardship, and she has always refused whenever someone has offered to contribute toward TSZ's operating costs.

Edited by keiths on April 25 2019,18:41

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: April 26 2019,05:34   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 25 2019,20:59)
I think the regulars would cover the expense, if that’s an issue.

I think the issue is that Alan doesn't share Lizzie's vision for the site and wants her to step aside so he can run it his way.  Not that he's far off from that now.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11163
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 21 2019,17:25   

Just did a fly-by. What a mess, with some guilty consciouses I think.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Patrick



Posts: 663
Joined: July 2011

(Permalink) Posted: May 24 2019,07:34   

Quote (Richardthughes @ May 21 2019,18:25)
Just did a fly-by. What a mess, with some guilty consciouses I think.

It would be nice to think so, but I'm not going to give TSZ any more hits until Lizzie returns.  I'm happy to continue any discussions here if the TSZ admins are willing to venture out where they can't censor comments.

On a related note, Lizzie is active in another forum.  I will be very pleasantly surprised if she returns, but I get the impression she's done with TSZ other than watching to see how it melts down.

  
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