RSS 2.0 Feed

» Welcome Guest Log In :: Register

Pages: (40) < ... 32 33 34 35 36 [37] 38 39 40 >   
  Topic: The Skeptical Zone, with Lizzie< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,10:24   

petrushka:
Quote
I am saying that I haven't a problem that couldn't be fixed by following the spirit of Lizzie's rules.

That's the same bad reasoning as before:  "If it hasn't been a problem for me, personally, then it shouldn't be a problem for anyone."

Again, as a former social worker, you should know better.  The fact that A gets along with B does not mean that A is not abusive to C.

The problem here is that the moderators have abused their privileges in service of a personal grudge.  They've ignored Lizzie's stated aims and broken her rules.

Patrick and I are doing the right thing by protesting.  What could be more obvious?

You are trying to blame the victims, just as people tried to blame "uppity" blacks during the Jim Crow era.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 05 2018,08:25

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,13:14   

petrushka:
Quote
But I am not a whiner. I see nothing good come of complaining about moderation when competent people are not being censored or banned.

Um, petrushka -- I'm not sure how you failed to notice, but this is a case of censorship.

I could not post for 30 days.  My account was completely disabled.  The only reason my comments appeared was because Patrick stepped in and did the right thing by posting them himself.

How did you manage to miss that?

It was a blatant act of censorship, in response to an OP that did not violate any rules, as Alan himself admitted.  (He's now trying to backtrack.)

And even if it had been a violation, the moderators are not permitted to censor people by suspending them.  This was a moderator abuse, top to bottom.

And your argument is "If they haven't abused me, there isn't a problem.  Stop whining."

That's a pitiful argument.

Patrick and I are protesting a gross violation of Lizzie's aims and rules.  It isn't whining.  It's the right thing to do, obviously.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 05 2018,11:18

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,13:18   

I don't perceive you as following the spirit of the rules, so I don't see you as being abused.

Patrick was away for a very long time, and I haven't seen him participate except for this protest.

This has nothing to do with your intelligence, your reasoning ability or your correctness on issues.

It's about manners. I'm a southerner, and I suppose I'm just averse to discussing other people's shortcomings directly. I'm sure counterexamples can be found, but it's something I work on.

I just tune out people who get personal. I cease caring about their cause, their ideas, their arguments.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,13:57   

petrushka,

This is amusing.

You ask us "Why whine, if no one is being censored?"  I point out that someone has been censored, for 30 days, in a gross violation of Lizzie's stated aims and rules.  Your response?  You drop the subject.

Then you tell us that you're all about "the spirit of the rules".  Guess what?  My OP didn't violate any rules, and what I did -- accusing Joshua Swamidass of lying -- is exactly the same thing that Lizzie did with Stephen Meyer.  There's nothing wrong with that, just as there would be nothing wrong with accusing Donald Trump of lying in an OP or comment at TSZ.

Who violated the rules in this situation?  The moderators. They imposed an unprecedented 30-day suspension on me -- something that the rules would not permit them to do even if I had been in violation.

I look forward to your explanation of why it's good to have rule-violating censorship at TSZ, but not at UD.  

I also look forward to your explanation of why no one at TSZ should accuse Donald Trump of lying, since that would amount to "discussing other people's shortcomings directly."

As for "manners", Patrick and I are doing the right thing by protesting the censorship and moderation abuses.  You are instead acquiescing to those abuses.

That speaks very poorly of you.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 05 2018,12:11

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,15:09   

For the record, I would limit moderation to posts that are illegal, libelous, inciting to lawbreaking, threatening, and such. One could go crazy trying to list all the possibilities.

But TSZ is not my site, and it is not hosted on a "free" host. Someone pays for it, and that someone experimented with a rule that is unconventional.

From early on there were a few posters who complained about the moderation. I mostly ignored the complaints. Now I mostly ignore the complainers.

I think the intent of the Rule is simple and clear, and I simply don't give a fuck what happens to people who can't post arguments without disparaging other people.

There are a few people who try to stick to debating ideas, and I don't see them having trouble with moderation.

I therefore don't see a problem with moderation.

My problem with UD was not because it had prissy rules regarding language and respect for religion. It was that I got banned several times for asserting forbidden ideas.

The distinction between arguing ideas and arguing that other people are stupid or dishonest is not difficult or subtle.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,15:19   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Sep. 05 2018,15:09)
For the record, I would limit moderation to posts that are illegal, libelous, inciting to lawbreaking, threatening, and such. One could go crazy trying to list all the possibilities.

But TSZ is not my site, and it is not hosted on a "free" host. Someone pays for it, and that someone experimented with a rule that is unconventional.

From early on there were a few posters who complained about the moderation. I mostly ignored the complaints. Now I mostly ignore the complainers.

I think the intent of the Rule is simple and clear, and I simply don't give a fuck what happens to people who can't post arguments without disparaging other people.

There are a few people who try to stick to debating ideas, and I don't see them having trouble with moderation.

I therefore don't see a problem with moderation.

My problem with UD was not because it had prissy rules regarding language and respect for religion. It was that I got banned several times for asserting forbidden ideas.

The distinction between arguing ideas and arguing that other people are stupid or dishonest is not difficult or subtle.

I got banned from UD for saying "mental masturbation". At TSZ it is a very simple process to not get suspended, put in moderation or have comments moved to guano. Attack the idea, not the person.  Seems like a reasonable rule to me.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,15:56   

petrushka,

As I said, you are acquiescing to abuses, while Patrick and I are protesting them.  That reflects poorly on you.  Patrick and I are doing the right thing, and you shouldn't be criticizing us.

Also, you and Acartia are carefully ignoring the facts.  As I've already explained:

Fact #1:  My OP didn't violate the rules, as Alan himself acknowledged, and what I did was no different from something that Lizzie herself has done:  accuse someone -- correctly -- of lying.

You are welcome to explain to us why someone should be censored for 30 days despite violating no rules and doing something that Lizzie herself has done, without hesitation.

Good luck.  I look forward to hearing your defense of censorship at TSZ.

Fact #2:  The moderators broke the rules by suspending me.  There is no rule permitting them to suspend people.
And for good reason -- Lizzie is opposed to censorship, if you haven't noticed.

Explain to us why it's a good thing for the moderators to ignore Lizzie's aims and break her rules, all in the service of their personal grudges.

You won't, because you can't.

And lest you have any doubts about the extent of the grudge, and the abusiveness of the chief instigator, here's an interesting little exchange that you might have missed:

keiths:
Quote
What is your justification for moving that comment to Guano? Be specific.


Alan:
Quote
Because I can, Keiths.


Would you care to defend that response of Alan's? No?

If you're so fond of the rules, why don't we hear a peep out of you  when the moderators violate them right and left, as they did with this suspension?

Whence the double standard?

Edited by keiths on Sep. 05 2018,14:00

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,16:35   

Lizzie has passed moderator responsibility to a few individuals. Based on their comments, they communicate with her when they make some decisions to ensure that they are honouring her wishes. If she is unhappy with their decisions I assume that she would do something about it.

You said that you emailed Lizzie with your complaint. What was her response?

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,16:51   

Acartia,

Lizzie is on a hike across Northern England before the new semester begins.

She is not dealing with any of this right now.  And given the mess her moderators have made, I suspect she doesn't want to.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1101
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,17:10   

Quote

Welcome a new overlord!
Posted on September 5, 2018 by Elizabeth

I’m very pleased to say that Mung has very kindly agreed to join the admin team.

Thank you so much Mung, and welcome!
...

The descent (IMO) continues.
Link

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 3134
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,17:30   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 05 2018,17:10)
 
Quote

Welcome a new overlord!
Posted on September 5, 2018 by Elizabeth

I’m very pleased to say that Mung has very kindly agreed to join the admin team.

Thank you so much Mung, and welcome!
...

The descent (IMO) continues.
Link

Now you'll see some serious misuse of moderator powers with Mung the ID-Creationist troll at the helm.

--------------
"CO2 can't re-emit any trapped heat unless all the molecules point the right way"
"Global warming can't be real because it still gets cooler at night"
"All the evidence supports Creation baraminology"

Whizz-dumb from Joe Gallien, world's dumbest YEC

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,17:38   

A Tweedle Beetle bottle battle ensues.

I put people on ignore not because they are rude or whatever, but because I find them uninteresting.

I find all of theology uninteresting, along with any philosophy that deals with questions of theology.

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,17:50   

Ptaylor:
Quote
The descent (IMO) continues.


Indeed.  Appointing Mung is exactly what Lizzie should not be doing at this point.

It would have been better to wait until she knows what's been going on in her absence:
Quote
And I look forward (?) to reading the Squawk Box comments on my return – and letting you know my responses and thoughts.  Hang in there, guys!


Let's hope she adopts the "choose your own moderators" scheme.  If she does, then the problem of moderator abuses will almost completely vanish.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,19:35   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 05 2018,16:51)
Acartia,

Lizzie is on a hike across Northern England before the new semester begins.

She is not dealing with any of this right now.  And given the mess her moderators have made, I suspect she doesn't want to.

And your point is...?

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,19:38   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 05 2018,17:10)
Quote

Welcome a new overlord!
Posted on September 5, 2018 by Elizabeth

I’m very pleased to say that Mung has very kindly agreed to join the admin team.

Thank you so much Mung, and welcome!
...

The descent (IMO) continues.
Link

I think that Mung will move fewer posts to guano. He can be frustrating, but I like his sense of humour.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,19:46   

Acartia:
Quote
And your point is...?

You asked the question, so I answered it.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 05 2018,17:46

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,20:17   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 05 2018,19:46)
Acartia:
Quote
And your point is...?

You asked the question, so I answered it.

No. Actually, you didn’t.

  
clamboy



Posts: 254
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,20:23   

Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Sep. 05 2018,10:08)
Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between moderation at TSZ and racial discrimination?

Yes, and he doubles down a few posts later. But here are some interesting things I learned from the Wikipedia page on the Freedom Riders, with whom keiths aspires to be placed in the same realm (keiths, I thank you for inspiring me to learn more about *real* civil rights protests, as we ought always to do - I have been paying attention to the genocide in Myanmar, but will do further learning and outreach to my elected representatives on this horrible situation, thanks to your example):

"The Birmingham, Alabama, Police Commissioner, Bull Connor, together with Police Sergeant Tom Cook (an avid Ku Klux Klan supporter), organized violence against the Freedom Riders with local Klan chapters. The pair made plans to bring the Ride to an end in Alabama. They assured Gary Thomas Rowe, an FBI informer and member of Eastview Klavern #13 (the most violent Klan group in Alabama), that the mob would have fifteen minutes to attack the Freedom Riders without any arrests being made. The plan was to allow an initial assault in Anniston with a final assault taking place in Birmingham."

"On May 14, Mother's Day, in Anniston, a mob of Klansmen, some still in church attire, attacked the first of the two buses (the Greyhound). The driver tried to leave the station, but was blocked until KKK members slashed its tires. The mob forced the crippled bus to stop several miles outside of town and then firebombed it. As the bus burned, the mob held the doors shut, intending to burn the riders to death. Sources disagree, but either an exploding fuel tank or an undercover state investigator brandishing a revolver caused the mob to retreat, and the riders escaped the bus. The mob beat the riders after they got out. Only warning shots fired into the air by highway patrolmen prevented the riders from being lynched. The roadside site in Anniston and the downtown Greyhound station were preserved as part of the Freedom Riders National Monument in 2017.

That night, the hospitalized Freedom Riders, most of whom had been refused care, were removed from the hospital at 2 AM, because the staff feared the mob outside the hospital. The local civil rights leader Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth organized several cars of black citizens to rescue the injured Freedom Riders in defiance of the white supremacists. The black people were under the leadership of Colonel Stone Johnson and were openly armed as they arrived at the hospital, protecting the Freedom Riders from the mob.

When the Trailways bus reached Anniston and pulled in at the terminal an hour after the Greyhound bus was burned, it was boarded by eight Klansmen. They beat the Freedom Riders and left them semi-conscious in the back of the bus."

"When the bus arrived in Birmingham, it was attacked by a mob of KKK members aided and abetted by police under the orders of Commissioner Bull Connor. As the riders exited the bus, they were beaten by the mob with baseball bats, iron pipes and bicycle chains. Among the attacking Klansmen was Gary Thomas Rowe, an FBI informant. White Freedom Riders were singled out for especially frenzied beatings; James Peck required more than 50 stitches to the wounds in his head. Peck was taken to Carraway Methodist Medical Center, which refused to treat him; he was later treated at Jefferson Hillman Hospital.

When reports of the bus burning and beatings reached US Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, he urged restraint on the part of Freedom Riders and sent an assistant, John Seigenthaler, to Alabama to try to calm the situation.

Despite the violence suffered and the threat of more to come, the Freedom Riders intended to continue their journey. Kennedy had arranged an escort for the Riders in order to get them to Montgomery, Alabama, safely. However, radio reports told of a mob awaiting the riders at the bus terminal, as well as on the route to Montgomery. The Greyhound clerks told the Riders that their drivers were refusing to drive any Freedom Riders anywhere. Recognizing that their efforts had already called national attention to the civil rights cause and wanting to get to the rally in New Orleans, the Riders decided to abandon the rest of the bus ride and fly directly to New Orleans from Birmingham. When they first boarded the plane, all passengers had to exit because of a bomb threat."

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,20:39   

Acartia:
Quote
Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between moderation at TSZ and racial discrimination?

clamboy:
Quote
Yes, and he doubles down a few posts later.

I made it clear what the parallel was, and I obviously wasn't claiming that the two situations were morally equivalent:
Quote
It's an analogy, Acartia.

Can you see petrushka's error?  He is arguing "If it isn't a problem for me, then it isn't a problem."  

That's obviously false, and the Jim Crow analogy shows why.

This isn't difficult.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Acartia_Bogart



Posts: 2000
Joined: Sep. 2014

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 05 2018,20:47   

Quote (clamboy @ Sep. 05 2018,20:23)
Quote (Acartia_Bogart @ Sep. 05 2018,10:08)
Are you seriously trying to draw a parallel between moderation at TSZ and racial discrimination?

Yes, and he doubles down a few posts later. But here are some interesting things I learned from the Wikipedia page on the Freedom Riders, with whom keiths aspires to be placed in the same realm (keiths, I thank you for inspiring me to learn more about *real* civil rights protests, as we ought always to do - I have been paying attention to the genocide in Myanmar, but will do further learning and outreach to my elected representatives on this horrible situation, thanks to your example):

"The Birmingham, Alabama, Police Commissioner, Bull Connor, together with Police Sergeant Tom Cook (an avid Ku Klux Klan supporter), organized violence against the Freedom Riders with local Klan chapters. The pair made plans to bring the Ride to an end in Alabama. They assured Gary Thomas Rowe, an FBI informer and member of Eastview Klavern #13 (the most violent Klan group in Alabama), that the mob would have fifteen minutes to attack the Freedom Riders without any arrests being made. The plan was to allow an initial assault in Anniston with a final assault taking place in Birmingham."

"On May 14, Mother's Day, in Anniston, a mob of Klansmen, some still in church attire, attacked the first of the two buses (the Greyhound). The driver tried to leave the station, but was blocked until KKK members slashed its tires. The mob forced the crippled bus to stop several miles outside of town and then firebombed it. As the bus burned, the mob held the doors shut, intending to burn the riders to death. Sources disagree, but either an exploding fuel tank or an undercover state investigator brandishing a revolver caused the mob to retreat, and the riders escaped the bus. The mob beat the riders after they got out. Only warning shots fired into the air by highway patrolmen prevented the riders from being lynched. The roadside site in Anniston and the downtown Greyhound station were preserved as part of the Freedom Riders National Monument in 2017.

That night, the hospitalized Freedom Riders, most of whom had been refused care, were removed from the hospital at 2 AM, because the staff feared the mob outside the hospital. The local civil rights leader Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth organized several cars of black citizens to rescue the injured Freedom Riders in defiance of the white supremacists. The black people were under the leadership of Colonel Stone Johnson and were openly armed as they arrived at the hospital, protecting the Freedom Riders from the mob.

When the Trailways bus reached Anniston and pulled in at the terminal an hour after the Greyhound bus was burned, it was boarded by eight Klansmen. They beat the Freedom Riders and left them semi-conscious in the back of the bus."

"When the bus arrived in Birmingham, it was attacked by a mob of KKK members aided and abetted by police under the orders of Commissioner Bull Connor. As the riders exited the bus, they were beaten by the mob with baseball bats, iron pipes and bicycle chains. Among the attacking Klansmen was Gary Thomas Rowe, an FBI informant. White Freedom Riders were singled out for especially frenzied beatings; James Peck required more than 50 stitches to the wounds in his head. Peck was taken to Carraway Methodist Medical Center, which refused to treat him; he was later treated at Jefferson Hillman Hospital.

When reports of the bus burning and beatings reached US Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy, he urged restraint on the part of Freedom Riders and sent an assistant, John Seigenthaler, to Alabama to try to calm the situation.

Despite the violence suffered and the threat of more to come, the Freedom Riders intended to continue their journey. Kennedy had arranged an escort for the Riders in order to get them to Montgomery, Alabama, safely. However, radio reports told of a mob awaiting the riders at the bus terminal, as well as on the route to Montgomery. The Greyhound clerks told the Riders that their drivers were refusing to drive any Freedom Riders anywhere. Recognizing that their efforts had already called national attention to the civil rights cause and wanting to get to the rally in New Orleans, the Riders decided to abandon the rest of the bus ride and fly directly to New Orleans from Birmingham. When they first boarded the plane, all passengers had to exit because of a bomb threat."

Thank you for clarifying. I now see that Keiths’ treatment by the TSZ moderators is completely analagous to the treatment of African Americans during the civil rights movement. I don’t know how I never made the connection before.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1448
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,06:40   

Quote
It was a blatant act of censorship, in response to an OP that did not violate any rules, as Alan himself admitted.  (He's now trying to backtrack.)


I'd like just to correct this bit of misinformation. My initial response regarding the OP that keiths posted, when the claim was made that "it broke no rules", was that maybe it broke no explicit rule but it certainly violated an implicit one and there should be an explicit rule. Unfortunately, I was wrong. When I looked at the rules page later, I saw that the rule is quite explicit. Lizzie's rules refer to posts as a collective of opening posts and comments.

So my "backtracking" amounts to not initially noting the rules referring to posts (not comments or OPs) and thinking OPs were not covered. In fact, they are covered and quite explicitly.

Hope that clarifies!

Added in edit: my initial reaction.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1448
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,07:16   

And another correction.

As far as I can tell, Lizzie has not published an OP at TSZ accusing Stephen Meyer of lying. She did say this:  
Quote
While I have a certainly amount of respect for Dembski’s writing, I have none at all for Meyer’s. I don’t think he writes “in good faith”. He’s got a good enough brain and a good enough training in scholarship to do due diligence. That he doesn’t makes him simply lying in my view.

He must know how deceptive he was being in Darwin’s Doubt, even if he half believed what he was writing in Signature in the Cell.
but not in an OP. It was in a comment here.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,07:49   

Alan Fox:
Quote
My initial response regarding the OP that keiths posted, when the claim was made that "it broke no rules", was that maybe it broke no explicit rule but it certainly violated an implicit one and there should be an explicit rule.

Bullshit.

Here's how you actually explained the suspension:
Quote
The suspension was intended to stop the unwarranted abuse Neil and DNA-Jock were getting from Keiths for their efforts in trying to solve the problem of the arguably libellous OP.


As you know perfectly well, Lizzie wants her moderators to be accountable and subject to criticism.  That's what the Moderation Issues thread is for.

You abused your privileges and censored someone in order to stop the moderators from being criticized.

Your story has been changing ever since.  It's been a pitiful performance.

More on this later.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 06 2018,06:17

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1448
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,09:57   

Quote (keiths @ Sep. 06 2018,02:49)
Alan Fox:
 
Quote
My initial response regarding the OP that keiths posted, when the claim was made that "it broke no rules", was that maybe it broke no explicit rule but it certainly violated an implicit one and there should be an explicit rule.

Bullshit.

Here's how you actually explained the suspension:
 
Quote
The suspension was intended to stop the unwarranted abuse Neil and DNA-Jock were getting from Keiths for their efforts in trying to solve the problem of the arguably libellous OP.


As you know perfectly well, Lizzie wants her moderators to be accountable and subject to criticism.  That's what the Moderation Issues thread is for.

You abused your privileges and censored someone in order to stop the moderators from being criticized.

Your story has been changing ever since.  It's been a pitiful performance.

More on this later.

Luckily for all of us, the original conversations are preserved, uncensored.

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1448
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,10:14   

Let me supply the link for that comment so anyone (is there anyone?) interested can see the context.

 
Quote
The suspension was intended to stop the unwarranted abuse Neil and DNA-Jock were getting from Keiths for their efforts in trying to solve the problem of the arguably libellous OP.
Here it is.

And let me just point out there were two separate issues. First keiths posted the arguably libellous OP. Then he was impervious to any suggestion that it was unacceptable, meaning TSZ admins had to take action. Keiths is being very selective in spinning his story.

Anyway, keiths is able to comment at TSZ. The only restriction is that his comments are being held in the moderation queue and will be released as soon as practicable. There are no restrictions at all on Patrick's ability to comment at TSZ.

This is the extent of censorship at TSZ.

Apologies for inflicting private grief on AtBC readers.

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,13:12   

Alan:
Quote
First keiths posted the arguably libellous OP.


I did exactly what Lizzie did:  I claimed publicly, at TSZ, that someone elsewhere was lying.  For her, it was Stephen Meyer.  For me, Joshua Swamidass. Like Lizzie, I can (and did) back up my claim.  It isn't libel, it presented no danger to TSZ, and it's something that Lizzie herself has done.

Please explain to everyone why you suspended me for 30 days -- an unprecedented action that the rules do not allow you to take -- for something that Lizzie herself has done, without hesitation.

Good luck.

Quote
Then he was impervious to any suggestion that it was unacceptable, meaning TSZ admins had to take action.


Why do you keep repeating this lie?  I modified my OP in response to the complaints, removing the accusation of lying.

You and the other moderators still refused to publish it, thus proving that it had nothing to do with rules and everything to do with your personal grudges.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 06 2018,11:16

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,13:23   

Quote (keiths @ Aug. 30 2018,19:57)
Alan:
Quote
You seem to have forgotten why your account at TSZ was suspended. Using your author privileges to launch a personal and arguably libellous attack on a professional academic is not in the ethos of TSZ. Being utterly impervious to requests to desist and insisting your behaviour was acceptable is what got you where you are now.

Um, no.

Let's look at what really happened:

1. The OP violated no rules, as you yourself have acknowledged.

2. My accusation of lying against Joshua Swamidass was fine.  Lizzie herself has used TSZ to publicly accuse Stephen Meyer of lying, as you know perfectly well.  No one panicked then, and no one needed to panic now.  As Patrick has pointed out, you simply used the situation as an excuse to settle a personal grudge.

3. TSZ was never in any legal danger.  First, the OP wasn't libelous, and neither was Lizzie's claim about Meyer, because Lizzie and I are able to back up our claims.  If it's true, it isn't libel.  Second, as Patrick explained to you, TSZ wouldn't have been in danger even if the OP had been libelous:  
Quote
As noted early in this thread, the possibility of legal action is extremely small and, even if taken, would only result in Elizabeth having to either provide a way of contacting keiths or take down the post. She is in no legal danger.

4. You don't have the authority to suspend people at all, much less for 30 days, as Neil has acknowledged.

5. Far from being "impervious to requests", I actually modified my OP in response to them:
Quote
Alan,
Quote
Subsequently, keiths was utterly immune to any request to desist.

Oh, please.  Here's what actually happened:

Even though I disagreed that the original OP was rule-violating -- a position that you have now validated (oops) -- I went ahead and modified it so that it didn't accuse Swamidass of lying, but merely referred to his falsehoods.  The modified version can be seen here.

I submitted the modified OP.  What happened?  Neil refused to publish it, giving the following bogus reason:
Quote
I will not be publishing that. If you want to have a public fight with Dr Swamidass, you will need to find another site for it.

Thus proving that it had nothing to do with rules, and everything to do with Neil's childishness and desire to censor someone against whom he holds an intense grudge.

You guys are just pitiful.

A suspension you aren't authorized to make, based on a rule violation that didn't occur and a legal danger that doesn't exist, and a supposed "imperviousness" that is a complete fabrication.

And you've maintained it for almost 30 days, despite the fact that you can't justify it.

That's pure moderation abuse, top to bottom.  Barry would be proud.

You've made a complete ass of yourself, Alan.

Reposting.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 06 2018,11:24

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,13:42   

Alan:
Quote
This is the extent of censorship at TSZ.


The 'extent of censorship at TSZ' is that you completely disabled my account for 30 days -- something you aren't allowed to do, and something that has never been done before at TSZ -- for not violating the rules, and for doing something that Lizzie herself has done.

I could not post a single comment.  Only the intervention of a former moderator, who was so appalled by your conduct that he felt compelled to intervene, and is now calling for your ouster, enabled my comments to be seen.

It was blatant censorship, 'worthy' of Barry Arrington.

You are a petulant man-child, Alan, chronically incapable of keeping your personal feelings separate from your duties as moderator.  Nothing sums it up better than this exchange:

keiths:
Quote
What is your justification for moving that comment to Guano? Be specific.

Alan:
Quote
Because I can, Keiths.


You're unfit to be a moderator.

Edited by keiths on Sep. 06 2018,11:46

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
keiths



Posts: 2090
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,13:47   

Think about it, Alan.

Your conduct, and that of your fellow moderators Neil Rickert and DNA_Jock, was so egregious that a former moderator felt compelled to step in, to protest, and to intervene to circumvent your censorship, while you looked on helplessly.

Your behavior was (and is) so bad that he is calling for you to be removed as moderators.

How did you manage to sink so low?

Edited by keiths on Sep. 06 2018,11:49

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
clamboy



Posts: 254
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Sep. 06 2018,22:56   

Quote (Occam's Aftershave @ Sep. 05 2018,17:30)
Quote (Ptaylor @ Sep. 05 2018,17:10)
 
Quote

Welcome a new overlord!
Posted on September 5, 2018 by Elizabeth

I’m very pleased to say that Mung has very kindly agreed to join the admin team.

Thank you so much Mung, and welcome!
...

The descent (IMO) continues.
Link

Now you'll see some serious misuse of moderator powers with Mung the ID-Creationist troll at the helm.

The choice of Mung as a moderator is...interesting (read: kinda weird, IMHO). Most of what I read from Mung at TSZ is, to my mind, worthless mockery and childishness, but hey, I am a lurker. Yet there are times when, in my opinion, Mung shows a  streak of decency. Will that guide his actions, or will it be his usual boring self who pretends to be a trickster?

  
  1172 replies since Aug. 15 2011,22:52 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

Pages: (40) < ... 32 33 34 35 36 [37] 38 39 40 >   


Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic

[ Read the Board Rules ] | [Useful Links] | [Evolving Designs]