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  Topic: Unacknowledged Errors in Marks and Dembski essay, Critique of "ev" backfires< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Dr.GH



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2007,01:31   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 21 2007,20:23)
Color me doubtful. I'd expect it to have been conducted in English.

Almost for sure the original was English.  Which brings up an interesting question, the English version is far milder than the Spanish.

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 22 2007,08:54   

Antievolutionist exaggeration would explain the change in emphasis.

Example

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 30 2007,15:35   

We're past twenty days since Robert Marks was delivered notice that the "Active Information" essay's analysis is founded upon a mistake -- where the mistake's existence was pointed out directly over seven years ago. I have received no response, and there has been no change in the availability of the essay.

Given how quickly the "Unacknowledged Costs" essay based on a programming error was pulled, it looks like Dembski and Marks plan to brazen this one out.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,05:06   

Out past thirty days and still no response.

Bump for the folks at UD who wondered where the "unacknowledged costs" paper went.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,05:12   

In a discussion I had with Rob Pennock, he gave me a summary of arguments Alvin Plantinga makes regarding knowledge. What I took from that is that in Plantinga's view (and thus the view of much of the IDC movement) knowledge is only possible via God's grace in making someone a functioning knower; error is an indication that one is not properly functioning/not in God's good graces.

So admitting error, it turns out, is not merely a sign of having a faulty argument, but also an admission that one doesn't have God's backing, that one is not properly functioning.

I wonder if even Plantinga could get on board with the notion that it isn't really an error if the proof of error can either be ignored or digitally scrubbed out of existence.

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Hermagoras



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,07:32   

Check UD.  In the comments, getawitness has politely raised the issue and now he wants an answer!

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Lou FCD



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,07:47   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Nov. 15 2007,08:32)
Check UD.  In the comments, getawitness has politely raised the issue and now he wants an answer!

Link for that and the quote, just for posterity.  (Thanks for that Hermagoras.)

Quote
Bugsy [160], I took your advice and Googled the paper (for those watching, it’s “Unacknowledged Information Costs in Evolutionary Computing: A Case Study on the Evolution of Nucleotide Binding Sites.”) Wow! What a story if true. As the story goes, Dr. Dembski put this refutation of Tom Schneider’s “ev” program on the evo-info website and crowed about how Schneider had not responded to it. Then when the paper was soundly refuted and shown to contain devastating errors, it was removed without comment from the site.

Now, if this story is true, it seems scandalous. Dr. Dembski has routinely decried the Darwinist rewriting of history that he observes. (He did so just weeks ago in the case of Homer Jacobson.) Is there any place where he either retracts the paper publicly, contests the refutation by Schneider and others, or offers another explanation for its disappearance? I would like to believe that the story is not as it seems.


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Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
Hermagoras



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 15 2007,20:12   

UD has now eliminated an entire thread where getawitness insisted on bringing things to light: luckily, someone saved the comments.

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

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Hermagoras



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,12:12   

Well howdydo!  Pressure at Uncommon Descent has apparently produced the following statement:

Quote
ERRATA

Thanks to those who pointed to a bug in our software.  This paper has been withdrawn.


Link

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"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2007,18:44   

I checked out the PowerPoint that was linked as the "new analysis" concerning the Marks and Dembski critique of Schneider's "ev".

Before: 'Ev sucks, because our bogus program proves it!'

After: 'Ev sucks, because we say so!'

Yeah, big improvement... not.

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mitschlag



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2007,08:08   

Unfortunately, the PowerPoint falls flat without fart noises.

I'm eagerly awaiting the YouTube version.

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Albatrossity2



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2007,08:29   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Nov. 16 2007,18:44)
I checked out the PowerPoint that was linked as the "new analysis" concerning the Marks and Dembski critique of Schneider's "ev".

Before: 'Ev sucks, because our bogus program proves it!'

After: 'Ev sucks, because we say so!'

Yeah, big improvement... not.

That Powerpoint was also a typical engineering production. Lots of densely packed text, little attention to graphic design niceties, and overloaded with tricksy animations.

It would really suck to have to take a class from either Dembski or Marks.

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Jim_Wynne



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(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2007,08:38   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Nov. 16 2007,12:12)
Well howdydo!  Pressure at Uncommon Descent has apparently produced the following statement:

Quote
ERRATA

Thanks to those who pointed to a bug in our software.  This paper has been withdrawn.


Link

I just noticed that Gil Dodgen(!!) and Granville Sewell are on the job at the EI "lab."  Further evidence that the lab is part of a clown college.

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Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2007,09:59   

"Unacknowledged information costs" is back online in a revised form.

In other news, Tom English is no longer listed at the EIL personnel page.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2007,10:04   

They have Gil's checkers program up there in resources. That'll assist "investigating how information makes evolution possible"...  :O

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 05 2007,14:34   

At first glance, it appears that the only difference between the "revised" version and the original essay is that the original said that they got their numbers from a MATLAB script, and the revised essay doesn't say where their numbers come from. I sure don't see newly derived numbers, with the exception of two new figures for the paper (4 and 5). That's going on memory at the moment.

So, the script that they based their numbers upon was found to have several serious problems. They've removed all reference to the script, but have retained the bogus numbers that they generated with the busted script. They have failed to acknowledge the criticism or the critics who pointed out the problems in the original version of the essay.

This is going to look great when I discuss it in my follow-up essay, assuming they manage to get this incredible dog published.

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Rob



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,12:42   

It looks like they're now acknowledging that their numbers apply to a much easier target than the one in Schneider's paper.  (A target of all positives is a cakewalk -- all it takes is a very low threshold value.)

Their numbers are still all wrong, since they're based on a misunderstanding of ev.  They think that the search space is 2^131, but it's really 2^256.  Had they stepped through a a few generations of an ev run, they would have known this.

But their biggest problem is still that their framework is nothing more than an obfuscatory semantic game.  For instance, they say that endogenous information is "a numerical measure of the inherent difficulty of the problem to be solved," but it would be more accurate to say that it's the inherent difficulty of a different problem with different probabilities.

Here's an example:  What is the inherent difficulty of rolling a 7 with a pair of dice?  We might naively think that the answer is based the number 1/6, which is the probability of rolling a 7.  Wrong, say D&M, the actual probability doesn't matter -- all that matters is the size of the search space.  D&M would presumably say that the inherent difficulty of rolling a 7 is based on a probability of 1/11, which is not the probability of the problem in question.

And how do we non-arbitrarily define the search space?  D&M seem to define it as the set of outcomes accessible to the algorithm in question.  But for non-trivial problems, we don't know what outcomes are accessible unless the algorithm's starting point is chosen randomly from a well-defined set.  But the java version of ev starts at the same point every time (it doesn't randomly seed the random number generator), so its set of accessible outcomes is much smaller than the set of all n-bit sequences.  So even if 131 were the correct number for n, the search space of ev would be much less than 2^131.

To see further see why D&M's notion of "inherent difficulty" isn't very meaningful, consider a problem that involves an infinite set possible outcomes.  Take, for instance, a Poisson distribution, which occurs commonly in nature.  For lambda=1, all non-negative numbers have a non-zero probability, but the outcome is virtually guaranteed to be 0, 1, 2, or maybe 3.  But according to D&M, the inherent difficulty of finding any of these very likely outcomes is infinite!  D&M's terminology simply doesn't mean what it seems to mean.

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Henry J



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 14 2007,15:56   

Re "D&M's terminology simply doesn't mean what it seems to mean."

Like that line from the movie "The Princess Bride": "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

Henry

  
Rob



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 31 2007,10:23   

Wes might be interested to know that Dembski and Marks have rewritten the response to Haggstrom, but they still claim that WEASEL is a partitioned search.

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 31 2007,11:04   

They are deluded, and Dembski at least has cherished that particular confusion for years.

I'm disappointed that Marks did not recognize Dembski's recalcitrance on this point as unscholarly and false.

There's also the issue that I've already done the runs that show that "weasel" as Dawkins actually described it comes within an order of magnitude of the efficiency of the "partitioned search" that they going haring off after. If they manage to publish, I will be pointing out all the opportunities they've been given to actually get it right, and stubbornly clove to error instead.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 31 2007,11:08   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 31 2007,11:04)
They are deluded, and Dembski at least has cherished that particular confusion for years.

I'm disappointed that Marks did not recognize Dembski's recalcitrance on this point as unscholarly and false.

There's also the issue that I've already done the runs that show that "weasel" as Dawkins actually described it comes within an order of magnitude of the efficiency of the "partitioned search" that they going haring off after. If they manage to publish, I will be pointing out all the opportunities they've been given to actually get it right, and stubbornly clove to error instead.

Have you contacted Marks directly?

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Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 31 2007,14:28   

RTH:

Quote

Have you contacted Marks directly?


Yes. No reply now since early October. I will be bringing up the issue of my correspondence should they manage to get this thing published in a real journal.

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Richardthughes



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(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 31 2007,14:30   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Dec. 31 2007,14:28)
RTH:

Quote

Have you contacted Marks directly?


Yes. No reply now since early October. I will be bringing up the issue of my correspondence should they manage to get this thing published in a real journal.

That is sad. I was hoping he was a good guy who didn't have all the facts.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,10:14   

Given Marks' reported comments on evolutionary computation, I am going to enjoy making a response to the essays of the EIL whenever and wherever they appear, if ever.

The fact that neither Dembski nor Marks can apparently read the few pages in Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" describing "weasel", but instead rely upon a long-rebutted misrepresentation of it will be a prominent feature.

Back in 1997, my talk at the DI-sponsored "Naturalism, Theism, and the Scientific Enterprise" was itself a bit of a retrospective of the Wistar conference. I took Schutzenberger's mistakes as a case study, and delineated how subsequent antievolutionists enshrined those mistakes, never noting the existence of the evolutionary computation literature that showed the original stuff to be mere poppycock.

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Tracy P. Hamilton



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(Permalink) Posted: Feb. 07 2008,11:34   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Feb. 07 2008,10:14)
Given Marks' reported comments on evolutionary computation, I am going to enjoy making a response to the essays of the EIL whenever and wherever they appear, if ever.

The fact that neither Dembski nor Marks can apparently read the few pages in Dawkins' "The Blind Watchmaker" describing "weasel", but instead rely upon a long-rebutted misrepresentation of it will be a prominent feature.

Back in 1997, my talk at the DI-sponsored "Naturalism, Theism, and the Scientific Enterprise" was itself a bit of a retrospective of the Wistar conference. I took Schutzenberger's mistakes as a case study, and delineated how subsequent antievolutionists enshrined those mistakes, never noting the existence of the evolutionary computation literature that showed the original stuff to be mere poppycock.


Schutzenberger said it, I beleive it, that settles it!  I wonder how many of the antievolutionists have actually looked at the Wistar symposium proceedings?

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olegt



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,07:11   

EIL continues to evolve.  The critique of Schneider's ev has been taken off the EIL publication list.  

The paper was titled "Unacknowledged Information Costs in Evolutionary Computing: A Case Study on the Evolution of Nucleotide Binding Sites".  It's now gone.  The link provided above by Hermagoras goes to a 404.

The current list of papers (all preprints), for future references:
* William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success" (in review).
* William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II   "The Information Cost of No Free Lunch," (in review)
* William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II  "Horizontal and Vertical No Free Lunch for Active Information in Assisted Searches" (in review)
* William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II  "Judicious Use of Computational Resources in Evolutionary Search" (in review)

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Zachriel



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 19 2008,09:08   

Quote (olegt @ Mar. 19 2008,07:11)
EIL continues to evolve...

* William A. Dembski and Robert J. Marks II   "The Information Cost of No Free Lunch," (in review)

From that paper:

Quote
Dembski & Marks: In refuting the NFLT, for example, critics talk of search structures having “links” in the optimization space and smoothness constraints allowing for use of “hill-climbing” optimization. Making such assumptions about underlying search structures is not only common but also vital to the success of optimizing searchers (e.g., adaptive filters and the training of layered perceptron neural networks). Such assumptions, however, are useless when searching to find a sequence of, say, 7 letters from a 26-letter alphabet to form a word that will pass successfully through a spell checker, or choosing a sequence of commands from 26 available commands to generate a logic operation such as XNOR.

This claim is very close to a claim made by Sean Pitman, of talk.origins fame, concerning word evolution.


Word Mutagenation



I know that Dembski tends to write in "jello", so it is sometimes hard to pin down his assertions, but he certainly seems to be saying that the wordscape does not "link" in such a way as to make a standard "hill-climbing" optimization possible. In fact, 7-letter (and longer) words quite readily evolve from simple precursors (even without selection for length).

I'm rather surprised that Dembski would repeat such a claim. And that the claim remains in the paper. I can’t believe Dembski chose Word Mutagenation!!

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