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  Topic: Is ID Dead?, Pat says yes, PZ says no< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 02 2006,23:34   

Dude, reach around to the back of your neck, just above the hairline.  You'll feel a small on/off switch.  Now, I know you can't see it, but it is labeled "brain on/off switch."  I don't know exactly how yours is set up, but from what you've contributed to this board so far I think we all can agree that yours is currently in the off position.  So flick the switch to the opposite position (I know your brain is still warming up from a long dormancy so I'll just tell you that the opposite of "off" is "on," which means you have just turned your brain "on."  Got it?).  OK, now that that's done, ponder my simple question:

How in the h3ll could anyone answer a question about a probability calculcation any more simply than saying,

ONE?

Do you only recognize English statements that contain chapter and verse citations?

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,01:15   

Hey Gimpy,

Most amusing. Tell me is this you?

Louis

(edited to remove and EXTREMELY offensive link I thought might be a good idea but on reflection decided against)

--------------
Bye.

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,01:43   

Quote (Occam's Toothbrush @ Nov. 03 2006,05:34)
Dude, reach around to the back of your neck, just above the hairline.  You'll feel a small on/off switch.  Now, I know you can't see it, but it is labeled "brain on/off switch."  I don't know exactly how yours is set up, but from what you've contributed to this board so far I think we all can agree that yours is currently in the off position.  So flick the switch to the opposite position (I know your brain is still warming up from a long dormancy so I'll just tell you that the opposite of "off" is "on," which means you have just turned your brain "on."  Got it?).  OK, now that that's done, ponder my simple question:

How in the h3ll could anyone answer a question about a probability calculcation any more simply than saying,

ONE?

Do you only recognize English statements that contain chapter and verse citations?

Oh, I found the switch and you were right.

I'm not a mathematician but I think that what
you are saying, and I don't want to put words
in your mouth, is, One = certainty, without a
doubt.
Like if someone was driveing down the street
and saw a sign in a yard that said, "God lives
here" and they honked at the man sitting
on the porch and gave him the finger, there's
certainty,one, that he would be no more.  Right?

2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,01:50   

While I don't condone needless harming of innocent beasts, I will make the exception here.

GoP get out your inflateable sheep sick her under your arm...put on some lippy, high heels and your best summer frock and head off to Vegas...get out and live..find yourself a nice wrestler...heck a whole tag team of them and GET IT ON.

Go boy! You know you want to...chicken.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Ra-Úl



Posts: 93
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,04:37   

ke:

I usually like your style and your taste in literature, but must you encourage GoPppy to come to my town? What have I done to you to deserve this sort of tratment? Ask him to go to another cesspool of sin and degradation. We get our supply of weird from advertising in some of the finest publications and more reputable TV sleazefests.

Ra-Ul (no time for tildes today)

--------------
Beauty is that which makes us desperate. - P Valery

  
Moorit



Posts: 21
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,05:52   

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Oct. 31 2006,18:41)
ID is dead as a mackerel, and has no hope whatever of resurrection.  Not a chance.

Sadly and respectfully, I have to disagree.  The whole ID mess never really dies.  It just gets repackaged with a great big, "NEW & IMPROVED!!" label stuck on it and a snappy new name.  Those who buy this sort of product never seem to notice that it's the same old, stinky pigshite.  "Teach the Controversy" has just changed to the "Controversial Issues Template.''  After that gets it metaphorical head slammed in the door a few times, it'll just change its name again.  Probably something like, "Modeling Other Methods" or some such thing to suck in the gullible all over again.

Moorit

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,13:02   

Paley, you seem to think that someone here actually gives a flying f#ck what you think.  About anything.

No one does.  (shrug)


Well, maybe Zero does.  Why don't you two go off and have a nice chat with each other?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,13:09   

Quote (Moorit @ Nov. 03 2006,11:52)
Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Oct. 31 2006,18:41)
ID is dead as a mackerel, and has no hope whatever of resurrection.  Not a chance.

Sadly and respectfully, I have to disagree.  The whole ID mess never really dies.  It just gets repackaged with a great big, "NEW & IMPROVED!!" label stuck on it and a snappy new name.

You should have gone on to quote my very next sentence:

"The anti-evolution movement, though, is like cancer.  It will never go away.  Ever."

;)

But as I noted before, the only reason anyone pays any attention at all to the anti-evolutioners is because of the political support they get from the Republicrat Party.

Remove that source of political support, and the anti-evolutioners turn into yet another group of loud but harmless nutters, just like Paley's fellow geocentrist morons, the flying saucer fans, and the "moon landing is fake" kooks.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,16:43   

Well, what WILL the next face of anti-evolution be? Straight creationism got smacked down in the courts, and creationism with a cheesy pseudo-scientific veneer (ID), also got smacked down. 'Teach the controversy' is DOA, so what's left? The folks at UD are showing us what the social future of anti-evolution is, namely creationism with scientific pretensions and a lot of semiliterate wingnutty whining about Dawkins, PZ Myers, and anyone not as full o' Jeebus as they are. That's enough to keep UD a sort of grotesque spectacle, but it doesn't exactly translate to a coherent agenda. I think Dembski and Regnery can continue to repackage the same bullshit only for so much longer before everyone wanders off. Is there any other direction for them to go?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
mcc



Posts: 110
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,17:39   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 02 2006,20:29)
I asked a simple question and expected a

simple answer.

You asked a gibberish non-question with no conceivable answer.

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 03 2006,18:51   

Ra-Úl said:

Quote
ke:

I usually like your style and your taste in literature, but must you encourage GoPppy to come to my town? What have I done to you to deserve this sort of tratment? Ask him to go to another cesspool of sin and degradation. We get our supply of weird from advertising in some of the finest publications and more reputable TV sleazefests.


oh ....sorry Ra-Úl, but just think you could insult him in 4 different languages. BTW thanks to you I found the urbandictionary.com when you pointed out deadmans ..er naughty mexican. Boy do they know how to swear!!

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2006,04:47   

Quote
Well, what WILL the next face of anti-evolution be? Straight creationism got smacked down in the courts, and creationism with a cheesy pseudo-scientific veneer (ID), also got smacked down. 'Teach the controversy' is DOA, so what's left? ...Is there any other direction for them to go?


I say, let's not wait around for them to think of one. Let's feed them one. Then we can control their PR campaign and, at the appointed time (everyone synchronize your watches), deflate it by remote control.

I have a really creepy idea for ID's next step that came to me while I was brainstorming for some fiction that I was writing under deadline. It would be fun to get the Dembster and Friends high on it and watch them try to skateboard over a lake.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
k.e



Posts: 1948
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2006,05:15   

Salome (Bring me the head of WAD) said:
Quote
I say, let's not wait around for them to think of one. Let's feed them one. Then we can control their PR campaign and, at the appointed time (everyone synchronize your watches), deflate it by remote control.


The Inflateable Designer ?

The proportion of inflation is measureable and in direct proportion to WAD's ego.

--------------
The conservative has but little to fear from the man whose reason is the servant of his passions, but let him beware of him in whom reason has become the greatest and most terrible of the passions.These are the wreckers of outworn empires and civilisations, doubters, disintegrators, deicides.Haldane

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2006,05:49   

Salome here (bring me a wad of WAD):

 
Quote
The Inflateable Designer ?


Oh, I get it, kind of like a moonwalk for grownups! [Grownups?] Brilliant idea. Let's trojan[~grin~]-horse them right back.

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 04 2006,11:05   

Quote (mcc @ Nov. 03 2006,23:39)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 02 2006,20:29)
I asked a simple question and expected a

simple answer.

You asked a gibberish non-question with no conceivable answer.

Most agree, ID is dead.  Was God ever I AM?  Is God

dead?  

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 05 2006,00:15   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 04 2006,17:05)
 
Quote (mcc @ Nov. 03 2006,23:39)
 
Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 02 2006,20:29)
I asked a simple question and expected a

simple answer.

You asked a gibberish non-question with no conceivable answer.

Most agree, ID is dead.  Was God ever I AM?  Is God

dead?  

Zero

Front page today:
Florida Today (my newspaper)

Having trouble staying alive?  Call Ditech.com

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps....006

Zero

--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
stevestory



Posts: 11048
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2006,12:39   

bump

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11117
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2006,16:16   

ID is dead, "creation science" will of course spawn another incarnation.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 11048
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 27 2007,17:00   

More 'ID is Dead' info:

Quote
This morning Red State Rabble did a Google search on the terms "Guillermo Gonzalez" and "tenure." The search returned a paltry 65 results. Of those, 21 are from the Discovery Institute. Seven right-wing or religious websites such as Town Hall and Baptist Press also picked up the Discovery news release. Science blogs and the Chronicle of Higher Education published six, mostly skeptical, reports. The news of Gonzalez' tenure denial was picked up by just three local television stations: two in Iowa and one in Illinois. Six other reports -- five of them in the Des Moines Register -- round out the coverage.

To put news coverage of Gonzalez' tenure denial in perspective, the 64 hits returned by Google were nearly matched by 62 hits for a story about an elderly Chinese woman who says her cat "grew wings" after being sexually harrassed.


http://redstaterabble.blogspot.com/2007/05/controversy-that-wasnt.html

   
hereoisreal



Posts: 745
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,21:47   

Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 05 2006,00:15)
Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 04 2006,17:05)
   
Quote (mcc @ Nov. 03 2006,23:39)
   
Quote (hereoisreal @ Nov. 02 2006,20:29)
I asked a simple question and expected a

simple answer.

You asked a gibberish non-question with no conceivable answer.

Most agree, ID is dead.  Was God ever I AM?  Is God

dead?  

Zero

Front page today:
Florida Today (my newspaper)

Having trouble staying alive?  Call Ditech.com

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps....006

Zero

The site I referred to is no longer valid but I had
copied it.


I thought it most ironic that it was published the
next morning after my post.

Zero



--------------
360  miracles and more at:
http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com

Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5)

It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,21:50   

ah, thanks for reminding me, 0.

this:

Quote
You asked a gibberish non-question with no conceivable answer.


was both correct and humorous, and I forgot to express my appreciation.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,23:28   

Damn, who left Zero out of his cage?  Now he's gonna crap on the floor again.

:angry:

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11117
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2007,23:34   

Inability to generate sustainable market share

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,02:02   

As an issue for science classes in public schools, I think ID is as dead as creationism and scientific creationism thanks to Kitzmiller.  Not quite the same coffin nail as a Supreme Court decision but enough to shut down the Disco Inst's influence in Kansas, Ohio, Michigan, etc.

That said, I remember hearing Garner Ted Armstrong 30 years ago, "The World Tomorrow" on AM radio, yammering on about evolution and putting forth the same creationist arguments we read about today.

So, maybe "dead" is the wrong description.  How about "neutralized?"  As long as we can continue to promote and strengthen good science education should we care how many gullible boobs Ken Ham fleeces at his Bible Diorama and Tire Emporium?

As for the Disco Inst, all you have to do is a Google Trends search to see that they have totally flat-lined.  Re: Gonzalez, news agencies are not picking up the story.  Even WingNut Daily has been conservative on the Gonzalez story, no pun intended.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,02:35   

all ID EVER was was a political tool.  that ID has failed is no more important that saying 'creation science' failed as a court tactic in the previous generation.

creationism most certainly has NOT been flattened, or did you all forget the myriad attempts to change science curriculums at the state levels in Ohio, and several other states, far POST Kitzmiller.

the numbers for those claiming creationist positions have not really changed in this country in over 20 years.

you can just gander at the Gallup poll data and see for yourself; it's summarized nicely in that article on evolution that made the cover of the Nov. 2004 nat geo, for example.

youre deluding yourselves if you think Kitzmiller killed any thought the creationists have of trying to change the science curriculum.

they'll just try to do it using local level governors and senators instead of the courts.

ask yourself if Kitzmiller changed the mind of AFDave.

not hardly.

if anything, the more these people lose, the more they feel persecuted, and thus the more likely they are to try even more desperate shit.

I do hope eventually the meme will breed itself out, but considering that we are still dealing with basic social aspects of racism and homophobia in this country, we still have quite a ways to go before we can safely say creationism is "done".

so, as when this thread was started, I do agree that ID is "done" as a political/legal strategy, but the things that drove its creation to begin with remain.

I certainly am not the only one with this opinion either, even in this thread:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....p=37668

Quote
all you have to do is a Google Trends


which is entirely meaningless.  I think we even had a discussion about why it was meaningless when Dembski tried to claim that the rising searches during Kitzmiller were an indication of real interest in subscribing to ID.

think about it.  those statistics have no real bearing whatsoever on real interest in ID.  It was just hyped in the news for a period, so you had a lot of people scratching their heads and asking, "what the fuck is ID, anyway".

which quickly died down as soon as the media dropped talking about it all the damn time.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,07:44   

Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,02:35)
I do hope eventually the meme will breed itself out, but considering that we are still dealing with basic social aspects of racism and homophobia in this country, we still have quite a ways to go before we can safely say creationism is "done".

I'm pretty sure you're not saying this but I just wanted to clarify...are you linking racism and homophobia with creationism?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11117
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,09:01   

Quote (skeptic @ May 29 2007,07:44)
Quote (Ichthyic @ May 29 2007,02:35)
I do hope eventually the meme will breed itself out, but considering that we are still dealing with basic social aspects of racism and homophobia in this country, we still have quite a ways to go before we can safely say creationism is "done".

I'm pretty sure you're not saying this but I just wanted to clarify...are you linking racism and homophobia with creationism?

I would suggest there is a very high correlation between homophobia and creationism. Perhaps even Racism too. Please note correlation is association, not causation.



Love the sinner, not the sin, etc.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
skeptic



Posts: 1163
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,12:00   

So, in essence, people who are prone to creationism are prone to homophobia?  The kind of ignorant generalization just begs for evidence.  Do you have any?

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,12:34   

Lordy Skeptic! That's just NOT what he said!

1) Correlation =/= causation. If there is a correlation (for which we've yet to see evidence, but as a betting man, I'll bet it's there! ) then it implies nothing about how related these phenomena might be.

2) I call "Egregious misreading of what Icthyic said"! Are racism and homophobia generally socially acceptable in the USA? Nope, AFAIK. Is creationism generally socially acceptable in the USA? Yep, AFAIK. Icthyic's point is not that they are linked but that even socially unacceptable ideologies take time to wither and die in societies, ideologies that are not socially unacceptable are going to take even longer to die. The "Antiracist" and "Antihomophobic" campaigns have been around longer or had more high profile public  effort than the"Anticreationist" campaign has. All Icthyic is saying "don't expect this to be gone soon".

Louis

--------------
Bye.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2007,14:21   

Quote
I'm pretty sure you're not saying this but I just wanted to clarify...are you linking racism and homophobia with creationism?


you should try reading posts for content, instead of buzzwords.

I didn't go into as much detail in that specific post as I did elsewhere, so let me spell it out for you:

the PATTERN is the same.  The fight against racism and homophobia, and those who maintain those delusions, is very similar to that against creationism and HIV denialism.

and mainly that's because the people maintaining these positions exhibit extremely similar arguments and behaviors, and yes, are often the same people (go check out some of the extreme xian fora, like the one for Christian Exodus, for example).

are they connected?

you tell me.

this goes along with what I've been saying for years:

this behavior has less to do with religion, and more to do with an already existing underlying psychology.

very much like some folks are predisposed towards becoming much more easily addicted to things like alcohol or cocaine, religion simply acts as an enabler.  the more extreme, the more likely they will glom onto it.

I think this best explains the similarity in the forms of denial and projection common to the various phenomena I listed.

It's also why direct action alone will unlikely result in long term progress, just like the "war on drugs" has failed.  

You have to treat the addictive behavior, not just remove the enabler.

In challenging creationists directly, it is hoped that at least one might be able to get them to recognize they aren't processing data rationally, and maybe then they might start realizing that there is some underlying issues they need to deal with.

that would be the best outcome, but even if that doesn't happen, it is hoped that casual observers might start to see the patterns themselves, and manage to avoid becoming addicted to these memes.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
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