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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 3, The Beast Marches On...< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,20:50   

oh, Gordon, you know what we like:
Quote
Sorry on a rather messed up post.

Now, Gordon, just go with that feeling, see where it takes you, baby steps...

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
paragwinn



Posts: 539
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,21:07   

In 'A Test Case for CSI?', vjtorley invites you to become a leader of men:
Quote
I’d now like to invite comments from readers with specific suggestions as to how P(T|H) might be calculated for the chance hypothesis that the structures observed by Hoover are non-biological.


will some dice help?

--------------
All women build up a resistance [to male condescension]. Apparently, ID did not predict that. -Kristine 4-19-11
F/Ns to F/Ns to F/Ns etc. The whole thing is F/N ridiculous -Seversky on KF footnote fetish 8-20-11
Sigh. Really Bill? - Barry Arrington

  
socle



Posts: 322
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,23:09   

Finally, someone posts a substantive response to Mathgrrl's CSI challenge:
Quote

If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity.
An example would be shakespear’s sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there.
Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,23:28   

Quote (socle @ April 11 2011,21:09)
Finally, someone posts a substantive response to Mathgrrl's CSI challenge:
       
Quote

If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity.
An example would be shakespear’s sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there.
Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.


"We have a shitload of data about this human artifact, including who did it, how he did it, approximately when he did it, and sometimes even why.

Therefore Jesus."

Jesus.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
fnxtr



Posts: 3504
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,23:29   

Quote (socle @ April 11 2011,21:09)
Finally, someone posts a substantive response to Mathgrrl's CSI challenge:
 
Quote

If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity.
An example would be shakespear’s sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there.
Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.

On second reading, I call Poe-sock.

--------------
"[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory

"Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 11 2011,23:51   

Quote (socle @ April 12 2011,16:09)
Finally, someone posts a substantive response to Mathgrrl's CSI challenge:
     
Quote

If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity.
An example would be shakespear’s sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there.
Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.

The paragraph above that is also, err, challenging:  
Quote
My understanding is that CSI is the same thing as specified complexity.
Are you saying that we cannot recognize specified complexity if we cant calculate it accurately?
Specified complexity is just that!
Complexity that is specified.

OK, which one of you is kuartus?Agree with fnxtr, just up there ^.

In other news Bully has seen fit to re-open the whole CSI thing: Is Mathgirl Smarter than Orgel and Wicken Combined? Doubtful.

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
socle



Posts: 322
Joined: July 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,00:23   

Quote (fnxtr @ April 11 2011,23:29)
       
Quote (socle @ April 11 2011,21:09)
Finally, someone posts a substantive response to Mathgrrl's CSI challenge:
         
Quote

If something is both complex and specified, then it is specified complexity.
An example would be shakespear’s sonnet. It is both extremely improbable to come about by chance and at the same time it is meaningful. So there.
Even if you cant calculate a number for it, we still know it is a real thing. You just cant argue that.

On second reading, I call Poe-sock.

I was almost convinced kuartus was a sock too, but sadly a little googling reveals his ID-friendly youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/Kuartus), as well as numerous 7-months-old posts on this youtube comment thread in which he spews the same nonsense:
   
Quote

But now if something is very complex and exhibits a recognizable pattern,such as methinksitislikeaweasel, we could rationally attribute it to design because it is very complex(very unlikely to come up randomly) and specific(corresponding to a line from william shakespear). We find such specified complexity in life,for example the bacterial flagellum.

***

Well, complex specified information is a synonym for specified complexity.


What a waste it is to lose one's mind ... or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is.  

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,04:54   

O'Dreary makes an important point:  
Quote
File under: Why dorks, dweebs, and rural morons don’t believe in Darwinian evolution, but sophisticates do.

An obvious corrollary to this principle is that dorks, dweebs and rural morons are the people who believe in ID.  After mentally reviewing the posters to UD and their posts, I have no argument with Denese here.

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,05:46   

Just to save y'all the agony of loading 275+ posts:



276

Indium

04/12/2011

3:50 am

So radiometric dating, which has demonstrated its usefulness thousands of times, which has been tested for objects with known ages probably hundreds of times, which gives results that are consistent with many completely independend methods, which has an amazingly large body of knowledge and supporting theory behind it, with papers being published almost on a daily basis, which has been the topic of complete text books (Dalrymple and many more) with lots of examples and fully worked out test cases is not a good tool and the incredibly weak “where you there” argument applies.

FSCI however, a term somebody on the internet invented, a term that can´t really be defined let alone be demonstrated for various theoretical or practical test cases and which in any case just calculates the chance hypotheses for the tornado in the junkyard scenario, that is a reliable tool and “where you there” does not apply?

The mind boggles.

Oh, and sorry if I really pushed

   “ridiculous things into your mouth that don´t belong there.”

There really is no need to. My apologies.

If you don´t mind, I am still interested in the link to the paper mentioning the 9ky age for the Lascaux cave. Also, please back up your claim that 200y old lava has been dated to be millions of years old. This is a well known creationist misrepresentation as far as I know.




277

Collin

04/12/2011

4:29 am

Indium,

a debater with a strong case doesn’t need to resort to insults.



278

KL

04/12/2011

4:44 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Collin, a debater with extraordinary claims that has the detailed evidence to back it up and a better explanation than the existing paradigm need not resort to evasion, philosophical arguments or changing the topic. I suspect that not only does this paradigm not explain the evidence, the folks here don’t know anything about the evidence. I have yet to see any details about the hominid fossils explained here using any other paradigm, which was the extraordinary claim on the original thread that spawned THIS thread.

The posters here dismiss the work of countless scientists as fantasy and delusion, yet show no knowledge of the fossil record. I’ve had Plato, the Bible, and quotemines from Gould tossed my way but after almost 280 posts, no explanation regarding the specifics of the fossil record. Anthropologists use dating, biometrics, geology, and comparisons to existing species and other fossils in their explanation; I expect nothing less from someone who claims to have a better paradigm.

Oh, and my posts are held in moderation for hours, but that seems to be getting a bit better.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,05:53   

Quote (lkeithlu @ April 12 2011,05:46)
Just to save y'all the agony of loading 275+ posts:

Your incivility will be duly noted and will be followed by much indignation and demands for apology before you will be allowed to join civil discourse again.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
lkeithlu



Posts: 321
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,06:17   

Indium responds here:



279

Indium

04/12/2011

4:56 am

Collin,

I agree. I am sorry, what are you referring to? English is not my first language and sometimes I make mistakes


Explosion? or crickets? Put your money on the table.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,09:41   

Gordo is pure comedy gold:
Quote
16 –> Bluntly put, if you see a flyable jumbo jet the best explanation is design, just as it is the best explanation for Ascii text in English beyond 143 characters, and by extension, the DNA code for the cluster of proteins in the living cell.

17 –> To overturn this, you do not need to go into all sorts of debates over whether everything has to be reducible to mathematical models to be meaningful (self referentially absurd BTW, reduce that to a math metric please) all you need to do is to produce a case where at least 143 characters of ASCII text in English have been created by Infinite Monkey processes, and you can use the Gutenberg library collection as a test base or the like.


SImple as that!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Learned Hand



Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,11:31   

Quote (socle @ April 12 2011,16:09)

In other news Bully has seen fit to re-open the whole CSI thing: Is Mathgirl Smarter than Orgel and Wicken Combined? Doubtful.



The legal opinion he cites is publicly available at Google Scholar.

A quick skim suggests that the court held that in the context of patent rules DNA cannot be analogized to other biochemicals, due to the function of its informational content.  It distinguished DNA from adrenaline and other compounds, even though they also contain information, in that DNA's information is used to describe/create other things, a quality the court opined was "unique among the chemical compounds found in our bodies."  Id. at 228.  

It would be silly to extend this reasoning further than the court did, which was merely to hold that DNA is sufficiently distinct from other biochemicals to not be subject to the same patent rules.  Arrington is wrong to pretend that the court held "that DNA is characterized by CSI;" the court isn't talking about "CSI," or complexity, or even specificity.  It's merely distinguishing DNA from other biochemicals.  Does that mean the court held that other chemicals, such as adrenaline, don't exhibit CSI/FCSI/etc.?  Of course not--those undefined buzzwords are as meaningless in a legal context as they are in the scientific community.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,11:54   

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....oubtful

MathGrrl:

Quote
My conclusion is that, without a rigorous mathematical definition and examples of how to calculate [CSI], the metric is literally meaningless.  Without such a definition and examples, it isn’t possible even in principle to associate the term with a real world referent


Barry:

Quote
Maybe mathgirl knows something that this federal court or Orgel or Wicken didn’t when she says CSI is a meaningless concept.  But I doubt it.



Empahsis mine.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,12:19   

Barry, knickers, twist:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....sing-it

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Goffr



Posts: 15
Joined: Feb. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,12:20   

I like how they brought up Orgel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgel%27s_rule

Orgel's Second Rule - "Evolution is cleverer than you are."

It's a shame my sock died so I can't post.

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,12:21   

Quote (Learned Hand @ April 12 2011,11:31)
Quote (socle @ April 12 2011,16:09)

In other news Bully has seen fit to re-open the whole CSI thing: Is Mathgirl Smarter than Orgel and Wicken Combined? Doubtful.



The legal opinion he cites is publicly available at Google Scholar.

A quick skim suggests that the court held that in the context of patent rules DNA cannot be analogized to other biochemicals, due to the function of its informational content.  It distinguished DNA from adrenaline and other compounds, even though they also contain information, in that DNA's information is used to describe/create other things, a quality the court opined was "unique among the chemical compounds found in our bodies."  Id. at 228.  

It would be silly to extend this reasoning further than the court did, which was merely to hold that DNA is sufficiently distinct from other biochemicals to not be subject to the same patent rules.  Arrington is wrong to pretend that the court held "that DNA is characterized by CSI;" the court isn't talking about "CSI," or complexity, or even specificity.  It's merely distinguishing DNA from other biochemicals.  Does that mean the court held that other chemicals, such as adrenaline, don't exhibit CSI/FCSI/etc.?  Of course not--those undefined buzzwords are as meaningless in a legal context as they are in the scientific community.

If you have a free moment or two, you should go tell him.  Your takedown of BarryA on his "OMG! Justice Ginsburg be a eugenicist!" post is still one of my favorite moments at UD.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Learned Hand



Posts: 214
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,12:35   

Quote
If you have a free moment or two, you should go tell him.  Your takedown of BarryA on his "OMG! Justice Ginsburg be a eugenicist!" post is still one of my favorite moments at UD.


Banned.  Thanks, though.

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,13:59   

It's getting real ugly over there at the moment.

I have to wonder when they'll stop describing how well understood CSI is and actually do something productive with their profound knowledge.

Rather then how wrong MathGrrl was. In detail. At length. With obvious sour grapes for the drubbing.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:08   

The Parkinglot avenger:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-376904

Quote
7

Joseph

04/12/2011

12:04 pm
So MathGrrl has an issue wth the metric system?


That boy is so dense.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:22   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 12 2011,14:08)
The Parkinglot avenger:

[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/progress-mathgirl-concedes-that-specified-complexity-is-a-meaningfull-concept-if-her-frien

ds-are-using-it/#comment-376904]http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-376904[/URL]

Quote
7

Joseph

04/12/2011

12:04 pm
So MathGrrl has an issue wth the metric system?


That boy is so dense.

OMC... that's unbelievable...

"It is better to be silent and thought an idiot than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt."

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:25   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 11 2011,14:54)
PotW

http://www.uncommondescent.com/human-e....-376737

Quote
272

Indium

04/11/2011

12:05 pm
Clive

Intelligent Design.


Where you there?



Squared!  that wins all of the inner nets.

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:38   

there is more tard than i can do over there in that pile so i am backing away from the tard real quicklike and whatnot but i'm giving even odds on the whole fucking site being 404d by midnite.  these impotent clowns are about to all have aneurysms on their respective lonely dorito crumbed couches trying to screech some hysterical anti-realist selective hyperfoundationalism whatsis horseshit loud enough to make them believe they could see it.  

harry barry arry is too slimy and slippery to ever admit anything on merits hence this horseshittery about "Mathgrrl admits CSI is a meaningful concept" because whatever that he hopes that to mean it don't do it.

the bigger point is that old man has counted heap many coup.  many others too riding in blackness some in light all piercing the veil of what is not yet known.  tard is the enemy that is never defeated, only beaten back into the shadows.  tard is a shadow.  for the light!

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:49   

Gonna start calling you k.erasmus

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,14:57   



--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
damitall



Posts: 331
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,15:18   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 12 2011,14:08)
The Parkinglot avenger:

[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/progress-mathgirl-concedes-that-specified-complexity-is-a-meaningfull-concept-if-her-frien

ds-are-using-it/#comment-376904]http://www.uncommondescent.com/intelli....-376904[/URL]

Quote
7

Joseph

04/12/2011

12:04 pm
So MathGrrl has an issue wth the metric system?


That boy is so dense.

I'm swithering.

Either he IS that dense

Or that's a joe-joke.

But then again... I don't CARE

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,15:21   

PaV 'Go away little girl' has waded in, complaining about liberals and presenting this bizarre challenge:  
Quote
MathGrrl:

I have a challenge for you. Scientists assert the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum”. I say that it has not been rigorously demonstrated.

For scientists—and you in particular—to convince me of this supposed “law”, please apply this “law” to the destruction of the World Trade Centers. Unless you can demonstrate clearly that it applies to that event, then the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum” is just hyperbole. I await your proof.

And when you “prove” that, then I’ll show you how to calculate CSI for any one of your four scenarios.

Anyone here know what he is on about?

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,15:24   

Quote (Ptaylor @ April 12 2011,16:21)
PaV 'Go away little girl' has waded in, complaining about liberals and presenting this bizarre challenge:  
Quote
MathGrrl:

I have a challenge for you. Scientists assert the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum”. I say that it has not been rigorously demonstrated.

For scientists—and you in particular—to convince me of this supposed “law”, please apply this “law” to the destruction of the World Trade Centers. Unless you can demonstrate clearly that it applies to that event, then the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum” is just hyperbole. I await your proof.

And when you “prove” that, then I’ll show you how to calculate CSI for any one of your four scenarios.

Anyone here know what he is on about?

chewbacca defense, for sure

--------------
You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3326
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,15:46   

Quote (Ptaylor @ April 12 2011,15:21)
PaV 'Go away little girl' has waded in, complaining about liberals and presenting this bizarre challenge:    
Quote
MathGrrl:

I have a challenge for you. Scientists assert the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum”. I say that it has not been rigorously demonstrated.

For scientists—and you in particular—to convince me of this supposed “law”, please apply this “law” to the destruction of the World Trade Centers. Unless you can demonstrate clearly that it applies to that event, then the “Law of Conservation of Angular Momentum” is just hyperbole. I await your proof.

And when you “prove” that, then I’ll show you how to calculate CSI for any one of your four scenarios.

Anyone here know what he is on about?

Pretty typical UD tactic.  When they can't answer a question, they pretend like they can, but only after their questioner jumps through hoops and score a perfect 10 on the dismount.

Oh! She gets a 6.5 from the Monserratan judge! Too bad for Mathgrrl! I guess she won't get her questions answered!

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 12 2011,16:14   

Densey, quoting the ever so accurate Debra Saunders:

Quote
A July 2010 memo later informed Enstrom that Department of Environmental Health Sciences faculty had determined his work did not meet department requirements and “your research is not aligned with the academic mission of the Department.”

Not aligned with the academic mission? That reads like academic-speak for: politically incorrect.


Taking money from tobacco and polluters, and concluding that their air pollution is not a problem is not just "political incorrectness".  Saunders didn't mention that little bit, did she?

ETA: in

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
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