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Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2010,19:36   

Posted my first comment (now in moderation) to Sal's post about the Israeli anti-evolution guy.  It reads:
Quote
Hi Sal, it’s been a long time. It may be worth knowing that Avital seems to have been chosen for political reasons. It may also be relevant that he has no training in either biology or climate science. His Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering was called “Interaction Between Detonation Waves and Shock Waves in Hypersonic Flow of Detonative Mixtures.” He seems a military-industrial complex kind of guy.

We'll see if it shows up.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2010,20:02   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Mar. 12 2010,19:36)
We'll see if it shows up.

Welcome back, and yes, we can tell it's been a long time!  

You seem actually  somewhat a little confident that a smart, telling fact and/or argument against ID might actually show up at UD - and allowed through by the guy called - with good reason - Slimey Sal.

A bottle of Dembski's best single-malt for you if it gets through moderation!

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2010,22:32   

Quote (J-Dog @ Mar. 12 2010,20:02)
Quote (Hermagoras @ Mar. 12 2010,19:36)
We'll see if it shows up.

Welcome back, and yes, we can tell it's been a long time!  

You seem actually  somewhat a little confident that a smart, telling fact and/or argument against ID might actually show up at UD - and allowed through by the guy called - with good reason - Slimey Sal.

A bottle of Dembski's best single-malt for you if it gets through moderation!

Well they made it through, so you owe me a bottle of imaginary scotch!  Don't worry though; you will have to pay up only when Dembski does.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 12 2010,23:57   

BTW, Cornelius Hunter's blog is still unmoderated.....and many of the usual suspects are residing there.....so come on down...

  
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2010,00:20   

Clive argues, quite convincingly in my opinion...    
Quote
Allen_MacNeill,

<snip quote about the works of the Grants work on Galapagos finches>

If that Darwinian evolution then it certainly isn’t Darwinian common descent. I liked David Berlinski’s response to this when he said, I’m paraphrasing, that the beaks change with the wet and dry season and regress back to the mean. Maybe one day we’ll have Galapagos elephants evolved from the finches, maybe, but we need a lot more evidence than beak variation. To me, this strikes as saying that since your children’s hair is usually a different color they’ll eventually evolve into a new creature. Do you believe that Allen? Do you believe that your children’s offspring, way down the lineage, will be entirely new creatures? Do you think they will be better or worse than humans?

...that he doesn't have a fucking clue of what he's talking about, or of elementary scientific concepts.

(Link is from Corny's bizarre thread in which he argues that global warming (which you guys deny, Cornelius) is evidence against evolution.)

--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2010,08:53   

David Kellogg is awaiting moderation    
Quote

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

Allen, I was surprised that Clive would offer the “better or worse” question, as he should know enough by now to realize its misleading character.

Some things may improve over time, but not necessarily Clive’s understanding of evolution.


--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2010,15:00   

Quote
 
Quote
“When it works, it works remarkably well,” he says. “But it only works in about 6 per cent of cases. It doesn’t seem to be a general way that groups of species fill out their niches.”
Then Darwin’s theory just barely makes it to statistical significance, conventionally given as 4 per cent.

Statistics FAIL


ETA: Because I had to.



--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,09:19   

[URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/speciation/uncommon-descent-contest-question-21-reposted-what-if-darwins-theory-only-works-6-percent-

of-the-time/]http://www.uncommondescent.com/speciat....he-time[/URL]

Dumbth doubled.

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,11:37   

David Kellogg is awaiting moderation
Quote

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

hrun0815, I agree. To use ideas from opinion polling to describe the “statistical significance” of a scientific theory is just bizarre, especially after having been soundly corrected by Mark Frank.


By the way, WTF is Densye talking about?  Is she referring to a 4% margin of error in opinion polling?

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,11:50   

Quote (midwifetoad @ Mar. 14 2010,09:19)
http://www.uncommondescent.com/speciat....he-time

Dumbth doubled.

Is Denyse reposting this in the hope that readers will forget that she woefully misunderstands statistical significance?

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,11:53   

Quote
By the way, WTF is Densye talking about?  Is she referring to a 4% margin of error in opinion polling?

I think so, but she's being uncommonly dense.  Impressive, no?

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It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,12:00   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Mar. 14 2010,17:37)
David Kellogg is awaiting moderation  
Quote

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

hrun0815, I agree. To use ideas from opinion polling to describe the “statistical significance” of a scientific theory is just bizarre, especially after having been soundly corrected by Mark Frank.


By the way, WTF is Densye talking about?  Is she referring to a 4% margin of error in opinion polling?

I have no idea but I'm pretty sure DO'L doesn't know it, either.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,12:44   

The >1 day delay produced by moderation was one reason I left UD.  I'm posting again in the hope that they'll treat me decently.  

You listening, UD folks?  Take me off the moderation list!  I've done nothing wrong, unless you count correcting errors as a sin.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,13:28   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Mar. 14 2010,12:44)
The >1 day delay produced by moderation was one reason I left UD.  I'm posting again in the hope that they'll treat me decently.  

You listening, UD folks?  Take me off the moderation list!  I've done nothing wrong, unless you count correcting errors as a sin.

Hermagoras - Nice try, but IMHO, you will never be taken off of moderation, because you fail to be inspired by God The Designer, and publicly admit that the world was created designed in 6 days, and that The Designer rested on the 7th, and he was born to erase your sins CSI, and is Irreducibly Complex, and Jesus died for your sins Dembski was Expelled for your science.  

For ever and ever, Amen.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,17:39   

Sternberg, as quoted by SlimeySal:
   
Quote
Now, the problem with such a statement is this: While there are ~25,000 protein-coding genes in our DNA, the number of RNA-coding genes is predicted to be much higher, >450,000.[1] [...]
So the true number of genes in our DNA is probably “450,000 + 25,000 = 475,000?.


From the abstract of the cited paper (the article is freely available here, but of course not linked at the Disco'tute):
   
Quote
Up to 450 000 non-coding RNAs (ncRNAs) have been predicted to be transcribed from the human genome. However, it still has to be elucidated which of these transcripts represent functional ncRNAs. Since all functional ncRNAs in Eukarya form ribonucleo-protein particles (RNPs), we generated specialized cDNA libraries from size-fractionated RNPs and validated the presence of selected ncRNAs within RNPs by glycerol gradient centrifugation. As a proof of concept, we applied the RNP method to human Hela cells or total mouse brain, and subjected cDNA libraries, generated from the two model systems, to deep-sequencing. Bioinformatical analysis of cDNA sequences revealed several hundred ncRNP candidates. Thereby, ncRNAs candidates were mainly located in intergenic as well as intronic regions of the genome, with a significant overrepresentation of intron-derived ncRNA sequences. Additionally, a number of ncRNAs mapped to repetitive sequences. Thus, our RNP approach provides an efficient way to identify new functional small ncRNA candidates, involved in RNP formation.


The authors didn't look for ncRNAs in protein clusters bigger than 30S and they looked only at one cell type (not all ncRNAs are expressed in all cell types or at all times), so they probably missed a lot. OTOH, they haven't shown that all the identified novel ncRNAs are indeed functional, i.e. it isn't clear how sensitive their method is. Actually, they haven't shown that any of their novel ncRNAs are functional, they only identified candidates.

So, several hundred ncRNA candidates equal "probably 450 000 genes" in Sternberg's world. Fitting, they don't seem to realize the difference between 6000 and 4.5x10^9 years, either.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,18:27   

Mung:
   
Quote
Wow. I certainly wouldn’t have put Monton’s book at #3 [of books to read on ID]. He’s off-base on a number of points, doesn’t really address the modern argument as we all know it through Behe, Dembski, et al, and he makes it clear that his designer is God.

and a True ID Proponent would never do that....

Invivosuperstitio:    
Quote
Yes, that clearly means that they were designed.

And it means much more than that. It means: “I am sending another message addressed to your reason saying that: “I am” and that: “I am Good and I am a Marvelous Designer” and “I am Excellent” and that: “I created you in My image and I gave you intelligence to understand that My Creation is marvelous, and I gave you reason so that my message is unequivocal about my existence and my divine power and those that pretend that My message is not clear have no excuse”.

BA77:  
Quote
InVivoVeritas can’t help it if you refuse to open your eyes to see the awesome wonders of design all around you and to then acknowledge the message it is telling us about the “Good” designer i.e. that He is good, powerful, and cares for us. About all we can do with someone like you, who stubbornly refuses to give any glory to God whatsoever, is to sit back and gently laugh in disbelief and wonder what is driving your underlying motives. i.e. Why do you choose to remain blind to what is so obvious?

ALL SCIENCE SO FAR

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,19:56   

David Kellogg is moderated:
Quote

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

To return to the question at hand, if Mark Pagel is correct, then the world is less Darwinian than one thought but also less intelligently ordered: that is, more chaotic and random than even Darwin thought. If Pagel is right, then the slight damage to Darwin is even more damaging to ID, since what is damaged is Darwin’s sense of evolutionary history fulfilling orderly and meaningful patterns — that is, Darwin at his most religious.


I figure we'll wait forever for them to come to grips with statistical significance.  Meanwhile, It might be worth pointing out that Pagel's idea is no help to ID at all.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2010,22:27   

Quote (JLT @ Mar. 14 2010,17:39)
as quoted by SlimeySal

Seems Sal has quite some spare time lately. Is he on holidays or did he finally quit grad school?

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2010,00:03   

A review of the EXPELLED screening at Imperial College London. The comments mention a well known tactic:  
Quote
Mark Haville also posted a 5 star review of Expelled on Amazon's UK site without saying he was the UK promoter.


--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Maya



Posts: 702
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2010,06:38   

Quote (sparc @ Mar. 14 2010,22:27)
Quote (JLT @ Mar. 14 2010,17:39)
as quoted by SlimeySal

Seems Sal has quite some spare time lately. Is he on holidays or did he finally quit grad school?

Posting continuously on UD must be his idea of an exciting Spring Break.

  
Hermagoras



Posts: 1260
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2010,18:47   

O'Leary admits: in her world, "Statistical significance" = "margin of error"

Fist bumps all 'round.

--------------
"I am not currently proving that objective morality is true. I did that a long time ago and you missed it." -- StephenB

http://paralepsis.blogspot.com/....pot.com

   
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2010,21:18   

Quote (Hermagoras @ Mar. 15 2010,16:47)
O'Leary admits: in her world, [URL=http://www.uncommondescent.com/speciation/uncommon-descent-contest-question-21-reposted-what-if-darwins-theory-only-works-6-percent-

of-the-time/#comment-349903]"Statistical significance" = "margin of error"[/URL]

Fist bumps all 'round.

LOL:
Quote

hrun0815

03/15/2010

8:48 pm

Yeah. I agree with Denyse. For example, if only six percent of the population are serial killers, it’s probably not a big deal. I mean, with an assumed four percent margin of error…


--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
N.Wells



Posts: 1836
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,10:40   

A precious nugget of high-grade ore from Salvador, in the same thread:          
Quote
If we presume that all life descended from a single species and diversified, how can we logically argue that diversification happens through a process of removing diversification!
This of course explains why removal of diversity from Masai tribesman in Africa so that they all pretty much look the same* (tall & thin) and removal of diversity from Eskimos so that they all look rather alike* (e.g. Edmonton Eskimos sorry make that not tall & thin) means that humans are all
exactly identical.  

(*slight exaggeration for effect: no offense intended)

Heaven only knows what would happen if environments and mating preferences weren't uniform worldwide.

  
DiEb



Posts: 312
Joined: May 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,12:36   

Again into moderation - at new peer reviewed id paper
 
Quote
I've a problem with your mutation rates: what you describe as mutation rate µ isn't what is observed when looking at the outcome of your algorithm - the effective mutation rate is just µ*(N-1)/N...

You got the effective mutation rate right in your earlier paper Conservation of Information in Search - Measuring the Cost of Success ? where you looked at a bit string: here, you toggled a bit with rate µ, sensibly forbidding that a bit changes into itself.

I think that this is the usual procedure.

   
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,12:48   

[quote=N.Wells,Mar. 16 2010,10:40][/quote]
Quote
A precious nugget of high-grade ore from Salvador, in the same thread:            
Quote
If we presume that all life descended from a single species and diversified, how can we logically argue that diversification happens through a process of removing diversification!
This of course explains why removal of diversity from Masai tribesman in Africa so that they all pretty much look the same* (tall & thin) and removal of diversity from Eskimos so that they all look rather alike* (e.g. Edmonton Eskimos sorry make that not tall & thin) means that humans are all
exactly identical.  

(*slight exaggeration for effect: no offense intended)

Heaven only knows what would happen if environments and mating preferences weren't uniform worldwide.


I read through Sal's post and for the life of me I can't figure out on what basis he claims that evolution states that 'lack of diversity =fitness'. Is there a history to Sal's nugget or did he just drop the thing from his pants as is?

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,12:50   

Quote (N.Wells @ Mar. 16 2010,10:40)
A precious nugget of high-grade ore from Salvador, in the same thread:          
Quote
If we presume that all life descended from a single species and diversified, how can we logically argue that diversification happens through a process of removing diversification!
This of course explains why removal of diversity from Masai tribesman in Africa so that they all pretty much look the same* (tall & thin) and removal of diversity from Eskimos so that they all look rather alike* (e.g. Edmonton Eskimos sorry make that not tall & thin) means that humans are all
exactly identical.  

(*slight exaggeration for effect: no offense intended)

Heaven only knows what would happen if environments and mating preferences weren't uniform worldwide.

An alternate theory about the Eskimo womens, is because  - according to DaveScot - they all wanted to have DaveTard's baby...

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,13:00   

Quote (Robin @ Mar. 16 2010,12:48)
I read through Sal's post and for the life of me I can't figure out on what basis he claims that evolution states that 'lack of diversity =fitness'. Is there a history to Sal's nugget or did he just drop the thing from his pants as is?

I think, and I hesitate to apply that verb to slimy sal, that this comes from the old "natural selection just eliminates stuff" canard.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Ptaylor



Posts: 1180
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,13:57   

Heh heh, well spotted hrun0815.
PaulN:  
Quote
I’m going to be Frank, are you being a troll on purpose?

hrun:  
Quote
Hi Frank.(...)


--------------
We no longer say: “Another day; another bad day for Darwinism.” We now say: “Another day since the time Darwinism was disproved.”
-PaV, Uncommon Descent, 19 June 2016

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,14:38   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Mar. 16 2010,13:57)
Heh heh, well spotted hrun0815.
PaulN:    
Quote
I’m going to be Frank, are you being a troll on purpose?

hrun:    
Quote
Hi Frank.(...)

A True Sense Of Humor at UD??? ... I fear the bannination button will soon get some use.  As all UD posters know, shirley there is nothing funny about ID, dammit!

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Robin



Posts: 1431
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 16 2010,14:58   

Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 16 2010,13:00)

Quote
Quote (Robin @ Mar. 16 2010,12:48)
I read through Sal's post and for the life of me I can't figure out on what basis he claims that evolution states that 'lack of diversity =fitness'. Is there a history to Sal's nugget or did he just drop the thing from his pants as is?

I think, and I hesitate to apply that verb to slimy sal, that this comes from the old "natural selection just eliminates stuff" canard.


Oh. Silly me. But of course.

--------------
we IDists rule in design for the flagellum and cilium largely because they do look designed.  Bilbo

The only reason you reject Thor is because, like a cushion, you bear the imprint of the biggest arse that sat on you. Louis

  
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