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  Topic: Comparing Dembski and Mike Gene, Story of two attempts to infer design< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:10   

So you dance this dance to say "subjectively, it looks designed to me"?


All Science so far!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:24   

Here's what I expect, TP.

I expect that you deliver an objective definition of design and the metrics with which to measure it objectively.

Applying those metrics to a smooth pebble and a Moore sculpture should identify the sculpture as designed and the pebble as natural.

Applying those metrics to a can of paint I deliberately threw on my garage floor against a can of paint that fell off a shelf should identify my toss as design and the fall as natural.

But, I toy with your tiny, uneducated mind.  I apologize for being cruel and unfair.

The fact is that ID proponents like Dembski, Behe and the anonymous coward "Mike Gene" have no clue, as in "are clueless" as to what design is.  Sorry, but knowing it when you see it is not scientific.

Behe's "purposeful arrangement of parts" is a totally useless definition.

So, what you have, TP, old bean, is a bunch of nothing.  And, furthermore, if you think you can pull quantum mechanics out of your diaper and bamboozle me with sci-cho-babble you are sadly mistaken.

Tell you what, you get Zuul to conjure up Jessica Alba in my office and then we'll talk.

Until then, spend your energies on growing up.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:24   

Hi Richardthughes,

Out of curiosity, what answers did you expect to your questions?

Did you have your instant response already queued up?

BTW, in the introduction of his book Mike Gene made it clear he considers ID to be neither science nor something that should be taught in public schools.

He caught quite a bit of heat over that at UD.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:28   

Quote
Out of curiosity, what answers did you expect to your questions?


I actually expected you to dodge, so kudos for playing, but the answers were poor.

 
Quote
Did you have your instant response already queued up?




 
Quote
BTW, in the introduction of his book Mike Gene made it clear he considers ID to be neither science nor something that should be taught in public schools.

He caught quite a bit of heat over that at UD.


Of course. The Tard cake only has so many slices and the rubes only have so many bucks.

Edit? YES!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:34   

Hi Richardthughes,

You wrote...
Quote
I actually expected you to dodge, so kudos for play, but the answers were poor.


Mike's answers were honest.

Thank you for at least a little recognition of the earnest attempt.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:37   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Jan. 20 2008,22:34)
Hi Richardthughes,

You wrote...
Quote
I actually expected you to dodge, so kudos for play, but the answers were poor.


Mike's answers were honest.

Thank you for at least a little recognition of the earnest attempt.

Are they Mike's answers or what you think Mike would answer? I'm a little confused.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:38   

To Doc Bill,

Frankly, I don't care what you expect.

And while I don't expect you will do so, I suggest you take your own advice about expending energy towards maturation.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:41   

Hi Richardthughes,

Those were Mike's words.

I copied them without his permission.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:42   

Can you get him to sign them?*

*Full disclosure, they are so damning (to him) I'm sure they'll do the rounds....

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:56   

Please, TP, cry me a river.  I've been dealing with creationists for over 30 years which is why I'm so cranky.

"intelligent design"

You can't define design, you can't identify the intelligence.  

Simple math:  0 + 0 = 0

Mike Gene sez:  60% of my calculation indicates that looks like a zero.

Dembski sez:  If it's not 1 it's got to be a zero.

Behe sez:  Zero appears to be a purposeful arrangement of zero parts.

TP sez:  The quantum probability of zero on my screen could tunnel into a quantum reality on your screen.

Now, if my deliberately insulting behavior pisses you off, then you're close to realizing how we all feel about you, TP, old bean, and your constant flow of drivel.

(taking unwarranted liberties to speak for the group; apology in advance.)

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,22:57   

Hi Richardthughes,

First of all, I wouldn't have copied it if I thought the quote would hurt Mike.

Either you or I do not understand the situation.

Mike Gene and Telic Thoughts are fairly independent of the Discovery Institute and Dembski.

While they are not enemies, I have reason to believe Mike's tolerance for giving voice to critics of the ID movement (e.g. Zachriel, Raevmo and myself) hasn't gone over very well.

And Mike's book received a very cold reception at Uncommon Descent.  This was more than simple competition.

If you think evidence of Mike's independence and honesty is damaging to him...

..like I said, either you are or I am misunderstanding the situation.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,23:01   

They are really stupid / scientifically naive answers. But then again, they are trying to defend really stupid / scientifically naive concepts. Sadly I need him to sign off on them before the mocking can begin in good faith.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 20 2008,23:33   

Quote
Complaints about the Matrix are just that – complaints. Ya either play or come up with all kinds of nervous excuses for not playing.


cut / paste

Quote
Complaints about the javelin catching are just that – complaints. Ya either play or come up with all kinds of nervous excuses for not playing.


--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,07:31   

Quote (Doc Bill @ Jan. 20 2008,22:56)
Now, if my deliberately insulting behavior pisses you off, then you're close to realizing how we all feel about you, TP, old bean, and your constant flow of drivel.

(taking unwarranted liberties to speak for the group; apology in advance.)

No apologies required here; I vote in favor of that sentiment.

If Mike Gene's sole redeeming characteristic is that he allows some dissenters to post at his blog, and that is supposed to convince me that he must be more correct about the world than Dembski, I have to say I'm still not convinced.

As noted before, TP, it's ideas, not people, that warrant serious discussion. And those ideas have to lead somewhere besides in circles. They have to lead to testable hypotheses and new insights based on the results of experiments testing those hypotheses. Neither Dembski nor Mike Gene have gotten to step one in that sequence (ideas that stand up to that discussion). Behe has jumped the shark. Your "third way" fails at step one as well. If you don't think so, then get to a lab and do something; I'll be much more prone to listen if any of you guys ever did that, even once.

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,11:16   

Hi Richardthughes,

So what was the purpose of you asking questions concerned the finer points of something you consider equivalent to "javelin catching"?

You didn't ask just once, but twice.

Was it just so you could mock?

Of course it was.

How you choose to respond to those with opposing view points influences the perceptions of their followers.

It is of little wonder as to why people like Dembski and Wells are able to sustain the ID Movement.  There is no benefit in making honest attempts.  In fact, it is detrimental to their cause.  All they need is to show is that the only choices are to reject your science or reject their God.

And they don't have to work very hard, since your actions make it all too obvious this is the case.

Quote
The truth is Darwinism is not a scientific theory, but a materialistic creation myth masquerading as science. It is first and foremost a weapon against religion – especially traditional Christianity. Evidence is brought in afterwards, as window dressing.

This is becoming increasingly obvious to the American people, who are not the ignorant backwoods religious dogmatists that Darwinists make them out to be. Darwinists insult the intelligence of American taxpayers and at the same time depend on them for support. This is an inherently unstable situation, and it cannot last.

If I were a Darwinist, I would be afraid. Very afraid.
link

Around 400 AD, there was a movement lead by people like Cyril and Augustine.

The scientists of the day included people like Hypatia of Alexandria who taught...

Quote
“Fables should be taught as fables, myths as myths, and miracles as poetic fancies. To teach superstitions as truths is a most terrible thing. The child-mind accepts and believes them, and only after great pain and perhaps tragedy can he be in after-years relieved on them. In fact, men will fight for a superstition quite as quickly as for a living truth – often more so, since a superstition is so intangible you cannot get at it to refute it, but truth is a point of view, and so is changeable.”
link

For those not familiar with the history, Hypatia and other scientists from the Library of Alexandria were labeled pagans and/or heretics and killed.

Cyril and Augustine were sainted by the victors.

History has a nasty habit of repeating itself.  I would rather not have my children and their children suffer through another Dark Age.   Paying off our national debt should be punishment enough.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,11:40   

The javelin catching cut and paste was to show what a "non argument" was offered. I can only mock if I'm presented with baseless nonsense.

Wah wah ID's "honest attempts". The backdoor evangelist bastard son of creationism makes honest attempts? Sir, you are grossly misinformed.

And the you link to WND.

*sigh*

Of course, ID is enlightenment, not a dark age. Here's how it plays out:



--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,13:16   

Did that make you feel better?

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,13:27   

Fact is TP, the base of both Mike's and Dembski's method is complete pseudo-science, like this list in your opening post:
Quote
1. Analogy - How similar is the phenomenon to something known to be designed?

2. Discontinuity - How irreducibly complex is the phenomenon?

3. Rationality - How purposeful (i.e. functional) is the phenomenon?

4. Foresight - How much front loading is involved in the phenomenon?

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,13:27   

I find it quite refreshing when a creationist self-destructs and his little neurons float down like a spring rain.

Hypatia was a scholar, not a scientist.  That is not a nit pick.  You are simply wrong, TP, again.

As for Dembski's and Wells' honesty, where do we start?  Copyright infringement?  Lies?

What happened to your "science?"  Where are your quantum hand-wave fluctuations?

Seems like you've gone off on a creationist bender to me.  What happened to the argument.  Oh, I forgot, you don't have one.  But you are funny,  I'll give you that.

But, not funny ha-ha, alas.

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:02   

Hi Doc Bill,

So did it help your self-esteem and maturation to correct me?

Personally, I think of people who deal with applied mathematics and astronomy as being more than just a scholar.

But I have never been big on worrying about correct terms.  Are her ideas or my point any less valid because you think her appropriate label is "scholar" instead of "scientist"?

However, if your intent was simply to engage in an ad hominem logical fallacy, you succeeded.  Which is pretty funny (the "ha ha" kind) considering I am an anonymous non-person.

Meanwhile…

Which version of reality do you think you live in?

Do you embrace the Many Worlds quantum interpretation?

Or do you think quantum physics exists in a totally separate realm that you can safely ignore when engaged in what you think of as real science?

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:23   

Who's Jessica Alba?

  
Alan Fox



Posts: 1402
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:27   

Never mind. googled.

That was an interesting journey. Besson is somewhat under-rated.Anyone else enjoy The Big Blue?

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:35   

Hi TP.
Do you really believe
Quote
The truth is Darwinism is not a scientific theory, but a materialistic creation myth masquerading as science. It is first and foremost a weapon against religion – especially traditional Christianity. Evidence is brought in afterwards, as window dressing.


?

If so, how would you explain the fact that this particular malaise only appears to be affecting a select few parts of the world?

Will "Darwinism" only fall in some places?

If so, er, international conferences will be more fun!

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1202
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:37   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Jan. 21 2008,14:02)
Do you embrace the Many Worlds quantum interpretation?

Or do you think quantum physics exists in a totally separate realm that you can safely ignore when engaged in what you think of as real science?

Not speaking for DB, of course, but I think it's not a question of whether QM can be safely ignored; it's whether anyone should pay any attention whatsoever to someone who hasn't evinced the intellecutual capacity to even be wrong.

--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,14:51   

Hi oldmanintheskydidntdoit,

I am surprised that it there would be confusion over whether or not I support either Dembski or Wells.

I do not support them.

I think they are potentially dangerous.

The potential goes up the more you force an either/or choice.

As for concern over international conferences, I am more concerned over international conflicts when a country will support an obviously incompetent leader just because he (or she) has the "right" beliefs.

Bush claims to have used God's guidance in executing the war in Iraq.  What if the next nut uses God's guidance in deciding what to do with our nuclear missiles?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,15:11   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Jan. 21 2008,13:16)
Did that make you feel better?

No, I'm still feeling godless atheism nihilism stuff.

Seriously though, get a grip, fella.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,15:22   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Jan. 21 2008,15:11)
 
Quote (Thought Provoker @ Jan. 21 2008,13:16)
Did that make you feel better?

No, I'm still feeling godless atheism nihilism stuff.

You need one of these to go with that spiffy chapeau of yours.

--------------
It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,15:26   

Do they have cheesypoof orange on white?


*tends mushrooms*

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,15:44   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ Jan. 21 2008,14:02)
Do you embrace the Many Worlds quantum interpretation?


I embrace the Many Albas quantum interpretation...

It is much more stimulating, and I can not wait until I get a handle on it.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
trilobite



Posts: 1
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Jan. 21 2008,17:00   

Ok Thought Provoker,
Why do I get suspicious that you are, in fact, Mike Gene, the author of this latest, ho-hum ID tract?  Could it be that you've always used an alias and provide little background info as you spam across the evolution/creation web? Who really is Mike Gene and Thought Provoker?
We're aware that Mike (or, perhaps, his loving mom) spammed the Amazon religion and science forums for weeks about the radical new design paradigm offered up in the Design Matrix. Of course, those who tracked the thread never got clear answers from Mike about what was being presented... just a lot of "buy the book and see" excuses.
Let's see, shameless self-promotion - deceptive marketing techniques and hidden identities. I would go easy on Dembski and Wells. These guys might be your only hope in eventually getting attention to your book.
Try some intellectual honesty for a change - attributes that IDiots are seemingly devoid of.



:angry:

  
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