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Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,06:15   

Cleverly combining two current issues?


ID’s secret, fragile yet very real research program:

It was DaveScot,





In the houseboat,





With the  mushrooms.




--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,06:18   

Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 03 2006,21:15)
   
Quote (steve_h @ Oct. 03 2006,17:11)
       
Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 03 2006,17:56)
After having banned most everybody who disagrees, GilDodgen is now triumphantly declaring, "Defending the indefensible is a difficult task that requires a great deal of passion."

I didn't realise Gil banned anyone.


I understand that the intricacies and personalities of Uncommon Descent is of some interest to this forum...

That is not meant to denigrate the fine work at documenting those "intricacies and personalities" and their descent into an uncommonly silly moderation policy.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,06:39   

PaV at Uncommon Descent: "How else can you possibly interpret your rejection of the phrase: 'Of course evolution can’t produce IC, because no mindless Darwinian process can ever produce IC.' In rejecting this phrase, you’re making absolutely no distinction between the world of biology and the world of computer simulation. You’re, in fact, equating them. This is patently clear, no matter how much you protest it isn’t so."

This is a misstatement and therefore a strawman. Rather, biological evolution is an *instance* of a specific set of mathematical structures called evolutionary algorithms. They are not being equated.

Careful construction of the set of evolutionary algorithms allows one to explore the capability of such systems, in general; which can then be applied to biological evolution, in particular.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
keiths



Posts: 2195
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,06:52   

Quote (2ndclass @ Oct. 04 2006,10:44)
The funny thing is that even after his backpedaling, he's still wrong.  The difference between transistor-level and gate-level modelling is far more than a quibble.  Gate-level models deal with boolean logic, while transistor-level models deal with actual voltage levels.

Any junior-level engineer knows the difference, which is why it must be particularly painful to Dave to have his ignorance pointed out.  He's already sensitive about not having an engineering degree.  His misunderstanding of science has been pointed out many times.  Now his lack of basic engineering knowledge is being exposed.  No wonder he banned Tom and Karl.

--------------
And the set of natural numbers is also the set that starts at 0 and goes to the largest number. -- Joe G

Please stop putting words into my mouth that don't belong there and thoughts into my mind that don't belong there. -- KF

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,07:52   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2006,12:08)
Quote (stevestory @ Oct. 04 2006,10:53)

I often repost here, the moments when someone gets deleted. Watching people get banned is an integral part of the UD experience.

One might well argue that it is indeed the only authentic action that UD ever takes...

English, Heddle, Karl, Me on OE, some guy right before me on OE whose name I can't recall...all in the last few days. I honestly can't recall the last three people PT/AtBC has banned. You'd have to go back months.

   
Mike PSS



Posts: 428
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,07:54   

Quote (keiths @ Oct. 04 2006,12:52)
 
Quote (2ndclass @ Oct. 04 2006,10:44)
The funny thing is that even after his backpedaling, he's still wrong.  The difference between transistor-level and gate-level modelling is far more than a quibble.  Gate-level models deal with boolean logic, while transistor-level models deal with actual voltage levels.

Any junior-level engineer knows the difference, which is why it must be particularly painful to Dave to have his ignorance pointed out.  He's already sensitive about not having an engineering degree.  His misunderstanding of science has been pointed out many times.  Now his lack of basic engineering knowledge is being exposed.  No wonder he banned Tom and Karl.

Bingo on the Boolean.

I was taught this at the high school level in the '80s.  We had a process sheet full (more than 10) of transistors, resistors, capacitors and inductors and we had to derive the output voltage by sequencing the input voltage through all the bells and whistles of each transistor stage.  We could change the resistance or capacitance of different points to vary the output.  At the end of this lesson the instructor put up an AND, OR, NAND, and NOR gate in Boolean and showed us how all the detail work on the transistor process is simplified to single point statements.

The problem with comparing the two like Dave does is that the Boolean gate has set parameters on every transistor sequence because its output is fixed by the gate designation.  The transistor model can have a variety of voltage outputs depending on the configuration changes you make to each transistor system.  Modelling each is a totally seperate function.

Another DaveScott moment.

Mike PSS

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,08:15   

David Heddle posted something that made me go, "Wow!".

This is an apparent glimpse into the innermost circle of protean antievolution, the "Phylogenist" email list. Named so because of a weak pun on Phillip Johnson's name ("phil-a-johnist"), the list has been operating since the early 1990s. Johnson had decreed that there should be such a list to permit the coordination of effort among those pushing (then) "intelligent design". Around 2002, it moved from the servers at UC Berkeley to a private host.

Heddle relates that William Dembski is its current moderator. He further relates that the "third-rail" of the list is any criticism of young-earth creationism, the topic that led to Heddle getting booted first from this inner sanctum of the movement, and also contributed to his departure from UD.

This sheds some light on commentary Dembski made upon a question I posed to Paul Nelson at the 2002 4th World Skeptics Conference. Nelson had said that science had reached a decision about UFO phenomena, and no, we were not being visited by extraterrestrial aliens. I asked, given that statement that science can decide things, if high school science teachers could legitimately tell their students that science had decided that the earth was 4.5 billion years old, and not 6 to 20 thousand years old. Nelson said, yes, they could. Massimo Pigliucci, the moderator, took it further, asking Nelson for his personal view on the age of the earth. Nelson, after some clear signs of not wishing to answer Pigliucci, said that he believed that the earth was thousands and not billions of years old. The audience was, to say the least, electrified. Both Nelson and Dembski immediately stated that the only reason I could have for having posed the question I did was to obtain the socio-political embarrassment of Nelson. That was untrue then and now. I was satisfied with the answer I got, which was fully sufficient for the purpose of answering those who would insist upon mealy-mouthed equivocation by science teachers when the topic of the age of the earth came up in classes.

Heddle's experience related at the link shows that there is far more to the status of the question of the "age of the earth" than the asserted convenience of critics in impeaching spokesmen for ID. A consistent compartmentalization of science's inquiry into the age of the earth is still a guiding principle of antievolution organization, as well.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,08:28   

Very interesting thanks. I suspect that at least in the early days the ability of the ID movement and the DI to aquire funding and support depended very much on their ambiguity on the age of the earth.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,08:42   

And it's also a huge confirmation that ID really is just rebranded creationism.

And it also highlights the truth behind this joke:

 
Quote

How old is the earth?

Somewhere between six thousand and 5 billion years.


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,09:31   

LOL

Quote
I don't mean to insult Dembski, but if you hang around UD much it doesn't take long to realize he seems like a very insecure authoritarian who resents anyone who questions any of his notions. He's simply nasty to people who do not bow down and offer to kiss his ring. UD does not have moderators, it has toadies.


from Heddle's blog.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,09:34   

Wow, the inner workings of the ‘inerrant and infallible’ Opus Deiesque ID hierarchy!

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,09:46   

I've wondered what the next ID strategy was going to be. We have the answer:

Quote
Poor timing

Category: Culture Wars
Posted on: October 4, 2006 10:34 AM, by Josh Rosenau

This week seems like the wrong time to write a pro-ID post titled "ID guys aim directly at youth." We've seen what it looks like to "aim directly at youth." IDolator O'Leary writes:
Quote
In a long-awaited move, the intelligent design guys are attempting an end run around the interminable school board controversies by appealing directly to young people.

Can ID can compete with X-boxes and text messages about edgy TV?

Maybe. Young people love excitement. As long as YOU are not the person who is about to lose your tenure, job, teaching position, or access to lab facilities and specimens - the ID controversy is fun and exciting. Even if you are, it is still esciting ...

"Give us your young people . . ., " ID math maven Bill Dembski intones, ironically.


http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2006/10/poor_timing.php

And notice that at OE, they said they were inspired by MySpace.

So that's the answer. Since the packets don't get through the central hub (school board), they're going peer-to-peer. Not a bad strategy, actually.

   
slpage



Posts: 349
Joined: June 2004

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,09:52   

Quote (Zachriel @ Oct. 03 2006,21:15)
Having a closed forum is more than acceptable, but inviting comment, while banning reasonable argument, then crowing how no one has an answer, is beyond the pale.

I'm sure you know, but that is essentially standard operating procedure on most creationist-run boards.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,09:53   

Quote
Can ID can compete with X-boxes and text messages about edgy TV?

What's the "ID can"?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,10:13   

Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 04 2006,14:53)
Quote
Can ID can compete with X-boxes and text messages about edgy TV?

What's the "ID can"?

I think the second 'can' there is just a typo.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,10:23   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 04 2006,14:34)
Wow, the inner workings of the ‘inerrant and infallible’ Opus Deiesque ID hierarchy!


All hail the guiding lights of Intelligent Design!


--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,10:28   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2006,15:23)
Quote (Richardthughes @ Oct. 04 2006,14:34)
Wow, the inner workings of the ‘inerrant and infallible’ Opus Deiesque ID hierarchy!


All hail the guiding lights of Intelligent Design!

Left to Right..

O'Leary / DaveTard / Dembski / Dunnoabout this fella.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Shirley Knott



Posts: 148
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,10:30   

OK, Arden, I recognize (from left to right)
O'Leary, DaveScott, and Demski, but who's the clown on the right end?  (Scary to think of someone to the right of Demski et al, but there you go...)

hugs,
Shirley Knott
Wow, beaten to the punch by Richardthughes -- too funny we both id'd the bustards the same ;-)

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,12:15   

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Oct. 04 2006,13:15)
David Heddle posted something that made me go, "Wow!".

Before anybody begins to give kudos to Heddle without due diligence, do try to remember where Heddle's mind exists on the status of Dembski and ID as well:

Heddle, from the post referenced:

 
Quote
That is independent of where ID actually falls in the spectrum, from a dishonest and profitable political movement for which Dembski is a guru to a bona fide science for which he is a groundbreaking theoretician.


bona fide science?

Dembski is a groundbreaking theoretician?

uh, righttttttt...

Edit:

It's technically incorrect for me to have postulated Heddle's position from that statement, as Dhogza correctly points out.

it's just that the idea of WD40 and ID being "groundbreaking science" is just so ludicrous as to set all my bells 'aringin at once.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,12:30   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Oct. 04 2006,15:13)
Quote (jeannot @ Oct. 04 2006,14:53)
Quote
Can ID can compete with X-boxes and text messages about edgy TV?

What's the "ID can"?

I think the second 'can' there is just a typo.

Hey, I noticed.  ;)

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,12:46   

Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 04 2006,17:15)
Dembski is a groundbreaking theoretician?

uh, righttttttt...

I think its a typo- they actually mean "theologian".

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,12:52   

Quote (guthrie @ Oct. 04 2006,17:46)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Oct. 04 2006,17:15)
Dembski is a groundbreaking theoretician?

uh, righttttttt...

I think its a typo- they actually mean "theologian".

doesn't matter.

it's just as wrong, either way you slice it.

In fact, you can't even say WD40 is a ground-breaking profiteer, or political propagandist.

He's simply an unoriginal hack, working off of old ideas in a "new" medium (the blog).

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
dhogaza



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,12:53   

Quote

bona fide science?

Dembski is a groundbreaking theoretician?

Read more closely.  Heddle is saying his point is true regardless of where ID lies on the spectrum.

He's not saying where he himself believes ID lies on that spectrum in that sentence.  In fact he's quite clear in saying that ID as preached by Dembski et al isn't even close to being science.

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,13:17   

hmm. you're right.

I retract my statement about Heddle, but not about Dembski and ID.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Thank Dog



Posts: 31
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,13:34   

David Heddle quoting Dembksi:
Quote
It bears repeating that the default view of ID for this list is the position hammered out over a fifteen year period starting with Phil Johnson and moving through to Behe, myself, Wells, Meyer, Nelson, Pearcey, Gonzalez, Richards, and O'Leary.

O'Leary?!!! O'Leary, a female journalist who admits (but often forgets) that she is unequipped to deal with mathematical and scientific issues?

How emasculating for the Daveless Wonder.

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,15:12   

When I was posting at OE, several of my posts concerned this guy Mark with his own novel ID theory. He's now got three posts on the topic, so I reproduce them here.

 
Quote

My Design theory

In my intro quote, I said I'm skeptical about using ID to scientifically identify design. That doesn't mean, however, that I'm opposed to ID in principle, and in fact I've done some work on my own theory of intelligent design. I haven't published it before, so I thought I'd share it here.

My theory is based on what I call "cognitive distance" or CD. Don't let the big words fool you, all it really means is "how far away are we from knowing who did it?"

It's not scientifically exact, but it does help us be a little more scientific about how we decide whether or not something is intentionally designed. (I like "intentional design" better than "intelligent design," since "intelligent" can mean different things).

The way my theory works is like this: suppose we have something, and we don't know whether or not it was intentionally designed. Let's say we found an oddly-shaped rock, and we want to know whether its shape had a natural origin, or was deliberately sculpted to have that shape.

What we do is consider each of the possibilities by making four measurements for each possibility. The measurements cover four aspects of design:

   * Agency
   * Capacity
   * Opportunity
   * Impetus

By assigning a numeric score in each of these four areas, we can calculate a total score for each possibility. The numbers get bigger the less certain we are about each area, so whichever possibility has the lowest total score, "wins."

I'll say more about each of the four aspects of design in future posts. This is just a high-level overview.
 
Quote

My Design Theory Part 2

In my last post, I started to describe my personal design theory and how it works by assigning "scores" in each of four areas: agency, capacity, opportunity and impetus.

In this post, I want to describe the scoring system in a little more detail. The basic idea is that we want to assign a score that is smaller the more certain we are about whatever we're measuring. It's a subjective assessment, but it does help put a meaningful number in each category.

Now, some might argue that if it's subjective, then it's not really meaningful. But it does have a meaning: it means "this is how certain we feel about our conclusion." More than that, though, we also have objective guidelines about how each score is to be assigned. I'll say more about that later.

The point I want to make in this post is that my design theory is a discriminatory theory. No, I'm not talking about civil rights or violating anyone's human rights! I'm talking about an approach that compares two theories, and allows us to judge which of the two is better.

In other words, we consider two explanations. For each explanation, we look at the four categories, and determine how each explanation scores in each category. Then we total up the scores for each explanation, and the explanation with the lowest score (the shortest "cognitive distance") is the winner.

In the next post, I'll go over each of the four categories, and what they mean, and after that I'll talk about how each category is scored. Probably one category per post.
 
Quote

My Design Theory Part 3

The Categories:

Agency

Who or what. I could have put "Designer" here, but I wanted a more neutral term so that we can calculate a Cognitive Distance for non-design processes as well. So, for example, we could list "erosion" as the Agency in an explanation of the Grand Canyon.

Capacity

Capacity refers to the Agency's ability to produce whatever it is we're trying to explain. For example, if we want to suggest the possibility that humans produced the great "heads" on Easter Island, we would consider whether the islanders had sufficient technology to carve the stones and move them, given their enormous size.

Opportunity

This category lets us assign a score to the question of whether or not the agency would have had a chance to produce whatever we're trying to explain. For example, would nature have enough time to produce a (whatever), if it started a couple billion years ago?

Impetus

I wanted to say "motive" here, but again, I need to keep the language more neutral so as not to be guilty of assuming the conclusion that an intelligent designer was involved. Given the ability and opportunity to produce a (whatever), is there some motive or pressure or other process driving the Agency to actually produce the (whatever), as opposed to producing something else, or even nothing at all?

So there you have it. We have four categories describing four ways in which the things we know have different "scores" related to the likelihood of a particular Agency being involved in creating something.

Does anyone have any other categories they think we should consider?

Next post: how to count scores in the Agency category.
Quote
My Design Theory Part 4

Agency

Ok, we've had an overview of the theory as a whole, and we've looked at what each of the four categories is. Let's take them one at a time and look at how each would be scored, starting with Agency.

Scoring is based on the idea that the more certain we are about who or what produced the whatever-it-is, the lower the score should be. So, for example, if we watch a painter paint a painting, we would put down a zero as the Agency score for the painter. We watched him produce the painting, so we know he produced it. Zero is the score which means maximum certainty.

Scores in the 1 to 9 range would be for situations where we didn't see the Agency actually produce the painting, but we know who the painter is, and we know he produces paintings like the one in question. So maybe we saw the painter working on something, but we didn't see the painting itself until it showed up in an art gallery somewhere. We might score that at the low end, say a 1, 2 or 3. Or we never saw the painter working on it at all, so all we have to go on is that it seems to be his style. Score that an 8 or a 9.

Next, in the 10-99 scoring range, we have scores for the situation where we may not know as much about the specific painter, but we do know that there were a general group of painters (Impressionists, let's say) who produced similar paintings. This is significantly less certain than when we have direct information about the specific painter, so the scores are an order of magnitude larger.

In the 100 to 999 scoring range, we get even more hypothetical. Perhaps the painting is unlike any known school of painting, and all we know is that there were some people associated with it, who might have tried to paint something.

And finally, we have the 1000 to 9999 range, for cases where we know nothing at all about any painter who might have painted it, and can only guess, based on how reasonable our speculations sound to us.

This last category might have been 1000 to infinity, on the grounds that if we truly know nothing about the painter, then we have no basis for making any kind of score. However, after giving it some thought, I decided to leave it in the 1000 to 9999 range because otherwise any unknowns are going to drive the total CD score up to infinity, regardless of whether or not there are unknowns in more than one category. By keeping the last category limited to the 1000 to 9999 range, we make it possible to compare explanations that may involve one or more unknowns in one or more categories.



"Ladies and gentlemen, this here is a wookie..."

   
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 04 2006,15:20   

Quote
My theory is based on what I call "cognitive distance" or CD.


so close...

it's cognitive dissonance

the rest flows easily from there.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ogee



Posts: 89
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2006,03:19   

Davetard never ceases to amaze me with his breathtaking cowardice.  To come right out and say "stop disagreeing with me or you're gone". takes a very special kind of 'tard.  

Then again, if I was an insecure, uneducated blowhard moron who had just been badly humiliated on my own blog regarding my supposed area of expertise, I might be touchy, too.

  
argystokes



Posts: 766
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2006,08:20   

Over on OE

SecondClass describes Dembski's work, referencing one of Dembski's papers
Quote
Dembski's CSI metric is nothing more than an indication that a given class of events is improbable under a given hypothesis. As such, the most that CSI can do is rule out competing hypotheses. It offers no positive evidence for ID.

In fact, Dembski has repeatedly stated that design inferences are eliminative. See his article "Design by Elimination vs. Design by Comparison" at www.designinference.com.


Patrick, OE moderator tells him to read the literature:
Quote
More like no positive evidence for ID that you find personally acceptable... Read the literature. Positive and negative arguments are discussed in there.


And then deletes a post by HodorH where he asks for a reference for where Dembski has calculated the CSI for a biological molecule.  (can't quote it, its gone).

Good grief, is the best way to become an ID blog moderator to not even know what the "prominent" ID folks arguments are?

--------------
"Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous?" -Calvin

  
2ndclass



Posts: 182
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 05 2006,08:33   

I just received my stealth banning from OE, along with the disappearance of a few of my posts (which were polite and, as far as I can tell, objectively factual).  Can someone explain to me the ethics of targeting a site at kids and then surreptitiously removing counterarguments, making it look like opponents are empty-handed?

--------------
"I wasn't aware that classical physics had established a position on whether intelligent agents exercising free were constrained by 2LOT into increasing entropy." -DaveScot

  
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