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Question: Fact to fact, face to face supporting science :: Total Votes:83
Poll choices Votes Statistics
I never discuss science v. creationism in public 11  [13.25%]
I occasionally discuss science v. creationism in public 60  [72.29%]
I seem to always discuss science v. creationism in public 12  [14.46%]
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  Topic: Fact to fact, face to face supporting science, in daily life. Creationists do not reply< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2157
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,22:20   

By "in public" I mean direct face-to-face encounters, and for the poll- not in lectures nor on stage, nor on internet chat/BB.  I wonder how often we engage our family and acquaintances in evo/creato discussion.

I go on a public fishing boat at least one day a week.  There are few of these days that I don't engage someone in discussing science, and fewer that I don't find a creationist or two.  Social research shows that face-to-face encounters are more potent in changing opinion than any other form of communication (including cheap movies).

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



Posts: 10809
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,00:38   

I voted never. A decade ago, I would have voted always. Now I will only talk about creation/evolution if I'm dealing with an intelligent person who probably doesn't reject the basic science of evolution. I view conversation now in kind of a rough cost/benefit way, and arguing with creationists about evolution has seldom any benefits and often fairly high costs, as social interactions go.

I often come here and share a laugh with other scientifically literate people about an hysterical thing said by Davetard or FtK or Doug Moron, but I seldom actually talk to those people. I did make an exception earlier and write an open paragraph to Paul Nelson, because he's a smart person choosing to act like an imbecile, and with a little encouragement maybe he could stop wasting years of his life doing that. (But I'm not optimistic)

   
BWE



Posts: 1901
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,01:18   

Hardly ever but it has happened. Actually, I just reread the OP and I have to say never but with a caveat. I occasionally discuss rational thinking vs. magical thinking.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,03:42   

I'll echo the discernment of SteveStory with a few caveats.

I do talk to people face to face about science (and if the topic is relevant, creationism. I'm afraid I can be more abrasive in real life than online, sorry!) and depending on the situation and person I'll be varying degrees of nice about it. A street preacher is less likely to get my time and effort (and civility) than a valued colleague or friend for example. Each situation is judged on its merits however, there's no use battering someone about intellectually if it's going to destroy a valued friendship or cause stress in the workplace. I'm also loath to watse my time on a total crackpot, but luckily I know few total crackpots in real life. That's what teh Intertubez are for.

The one condition I will and do apply to that though is this: for example I am a vehement anti-racist, an ardent proponent of science and reason, and I suffer fools not even slightly. If I cannot do that at home, I have no right to take it elsewhere. In other words, when mother dearest starts banging on about homeopathy I bring her up short. Nicely but I let it be known that if she's going to spout unsubstantiated drivel at me then I will argue (however nicely). When the father-in-law starts promulgating his incredibly racist ideas I tell him, with evidence and no lack of clarity, that not only are these ideas flawed but they are positively harmful. I've got no right to tell Skeptic (for example) he's a loon if I can't also tell mother! Granted, I'm nicer to mother than I am to Skeptic! ;-)

Louis

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Bye.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,04:28   

I sometimes do, but I still prefer written language over face-to-face. I'm way to impulsive to discuss things like this, I don't have the time to really think about what I want to say. Also, what Louis says, some friends of mine are complete tards if it's about science, but ofcourse I don't want to spoil our friendship over that (although I'm dissapointed when I find out retarted things). The only exception, are my parents. Especially my mum likes pseudo-science stuff, and falls for the bullshit beauty-product commercials (like DNAge) and then I totally burn here. My dad is a douchebag when it's about politics, and he's fun to burn down as well. To illustrate the atmosphear at home: I've been kicked out the house 7 times, and I think I'll move out pretty soon.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1754
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,04:46   

I haven't answered the poll but I sometimes discuss this ridiculous subject in public (mostly at work).

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,05:01   

Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,10:28)
[SNIP]

I've been kicked out the house 7 times, and I think I'll move out pretty soon.

Good work my lad! Now, to be a real christian you have to completely cut yourself off from your family...... oh wait, was that NOT what that verse means? ;-)

Louis

P.S. Kicked out 7 times just for arguing? Excellent effort on your part. I highly recommend a change of sex/sexuality and a profoundly expensive drug habit for the win! I have some people I can put you in contact with....

P.P.S. Does it go without saying that I am joking? I want FTK to quote this as "Darwinist advocates drugs and leaving family shocker", and miss this disclaimer off. It's what she does.

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Bye.

  
philbert



Posts: 20
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,05:01   

When I lived in Melbourne (where there were a lot more of these things than where I am now), I'd often engage the street preachers. I never thought there was much of a chance to change their minds, of course, but it was usually worthwhile for the other members of the public who'd be listening nearby. And I figured that, if absolutely nothing else, I was tying up the guy's time, and temporarily stopping him from harping at my fellow citizens.

And for similar reasons as Louis, I tend to pipe up if there's some sort of anti-science nonsense being spouted by someone at work (a co-worker saying that another should go get some homeopathic "remedy", what with winter coming on and all), or if they make some serious-faced comment about star signs, etc.. Not often strictly the evolution / Creationism argument here in New Zealand -- but hey, nonsense is nonsense; it's all of a type.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,05:17   

Quote (Louis @ April 08 2008,05:01)
P.S. Kicked out 7 times just for arguing? Excellent effort on your part. I highly recommend a change of sex/sexuality and a profoundly expensive drug habit for the win! I have some people I can put you in contact with....

Ooo that's not needed, I'm Dutch, at least pot is alwayse a doorstep away ;-) (although I live in the middle of the Dutch Bible Belt, but it's still Holland; we had a weed 'farm' 1 block from my house)
But yea it's mostly for arguing, but my dad and I don't really get along anyway since character wise, we're WAY to similair. It's not that he's christian, or some other kind of fundie, it's just he's a tard on some area's. And lot's of times, there is a complete lack of logic in his parenting (and even my mum acknowledges that sometimes). And that's a pretty volatile mix.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,05:30   

Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,11:17)
Quote (Louis @ April 08 2008,05:01)
P.S. Kicked out 7 times just for arguing? Excellent effort on your part. I highly recommend a change of sex/sexuality and a profoundly expensive drug habit for the win! I have some people I can put you in contact with....

Ooo that's not needed, I'm Dutch, at least pot is alwayse a doorstep away ;-) (although I live in the middle of the Dutch Bible Belt, but it's still Holland; we had a weed 'farm' 1 block from my house)
But yea it's mostly for arguing, but my dad and I don't really get along anyway since character wise, we're WAY to similair. It's not that he's christian, or some other kind of fundie, it's just he's a tard on some area's. And lot's of times, there is a complete lack of logic in his parenting (and even my mum acknowledges that sometimes). And that's a pretty volatile mix.

Dutch? Did I mention that the Netherlands is one of my most favouritest places in teh world. I've been to Amsterdam several times and a good friend of mine is Dutch. Ahhh the Van Gogh Museum, the Ann Frank House, the canals, the beautiful yet strangely leaning architecture.....ah yes, I remember them very poorly for some reason. Particularly of interest is a little cafe on the Warmoesstraat in Amsterdam called "The Greenhouse Effect". Their White Widow is superb...erm someone told me once, apparently. You can't beat Jack Herrer though...allegedly.

Anyway, since the only Dutch I can reliably remember is a few plesantries, "mijn geschlactsorganen doen pijn" and "Ik hab een zwelling"* I'll leave this there.

Louis

*Learned only for comedy purposes I can assure you, Your Honour.

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Bye.

  
BWE



Posts: 1901
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,06:22   

Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,05:17)
... my dad and I don't really get along anyway since character wise, we're WAY to similair. It's not that he's christian, or some other kind of fundie, it's just he's a tard on some area's. And lot's of times, there is a complete lack of logic in his parenting (and even my mum acknowledges that sometimes). And that's a pretty volatile mix.

Your children will repeat that paragraph dang near verbatim someday.

Thus spake BWE

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,06:42   

Quote (BWE @ April 08 2008,12:22)
Quote (Assassinator @ April 08 2008,05:17)
... my dad and I don't really get along anyway since character wise, we're WAY to similair. It's not that he's christian, or some other kind of fundie, it's just he's a tard on some area's. And lot's of times, there is a complete lack of logic in his parenting (and even my mum acknowledges that sometimes). And that's a pretty volatile mix.

Your children will repeat that paragraph dang near verbatim someday.

Thus spake BWE

Amen brother.

I swear blind my parents only want me to have kids out of some kind of twisted intergenerational revenge.

Louis

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,08:02   

I think my approach works best - Have sex with Fundies.  
Well, only ONE Fundy now... married her.
Use Quidam's Icon Approach:  Do not let them Invoke Big JuJu at any time.

We only talk about  "The Forbidden Subject":

1.) When she brings it up. (Seldom)

2.) If she makes disparaging remark over something I am watching on TV, like NOVA, or Discovery or History Channel

3.) If I do not want any more sex for that week / month / year / ever.  Depending.

My advice to others considering "mixed marriages" - Don't do it!  Too many stumbling blocks!  It takes a special relationship to manage anything this crazy and make it work.  I would never recommend putting anyone else through it, but it works out well-enough for us.  So Far!  

Mrs. J-Dog even went to the Darwin Meet-up last summer with Rich, Kristine and Nomad, which was nice, but she didn't really pay attention.  Good thing she didn't notice the Darwin Leads To Hitler wing of the exhibit, right Kevin?

At work - No can talk about it - Boss is a Fundy, but can and do dis on "Ghost Hunter" fan(s).  Others here at work also laugh at woo-followers and Ghost Hunter fan(s), so that's good, and one of the project managers at lunch last summer was laughing at ID and Dembski, so that was great.  Too bad he left for more money elsewhere.

So, overall, I have to say I'm more the "if someone asks questions, I'll answer it kind of guy", rather than an "in your face" kind, unless, like Louis, it's pretty obvious someone is talking some serious racial bull-shit,  or they are making a blatantly dishonest movie. Then I think it's quite all right to get in their face and make them cry.  Right Kevin?

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,09:14   

Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:02)
[SNIP]

So, overall, I have to say I'm more the "if someone asks questions, I'll answer it kind of guy", rather than an "in your face" kind, unless, like Louis, it's pretty obvious someone is talking some serious racial bull-shit,  or they are making a blatantly dishonest movie. Then I think it's quite all right to get in their face and make them cry.  Right Kevin?

[SNIP]

I find that in 90% of cases non-verbal/minmally verbal means of communication are sufficient to illustrate one's displeasure. A rather amused, wry smile and walking away work well. As indeed does a slight titter and an "ooooookay, that's nice". Of course biting the heads of whippets and making swishing motions with a rapidly produced knife helps too.

Louis

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Bye.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,09:56   

Quote (Louis @ April 08 2008,09:14)
Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:02)
[SNIP]

So, overall, I have to say I'm more the "if someone asks questions, I'll answer it kind of guy", rather than an "in your face" kind, unless, like Louis, it's pretty obvious someone is talking some serious racial bull-shit,  or they are making a blatantly dishonest movie. Then I think it's quite all right to get in their face and make them cry.  Right Kevin?

[SNIP]

I find that in 90% of cases non-verbal/minmally verbal means of communication are sufficient to illustrate one's displeasure. A rather amused, wry smile and walking away work well. As indeed does a slight titter and an "ooooookay, that's nice". Of course biting the heads of whippets and making swishing motions with a rapidly produced knife helps too.

Louis

Interesting.  

I think that "making swishing motions with a rapidly produced knife " while muttering about "after we're in charge" comments also helps in this type of situation.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,10:28   

Quote (Louis @ April 08 2008,03:42)
I'll echo the discernment of SteveStory with a few caveats.

I do talk to people face to face about science (and if the topic is relevant, creationism. I'm afraid I can be more abrasive in real life than online, sorry!) and depending on the situation and person I'll be varying degrees of nice about it. A street preacher is less likely to get my time and effort (and civility) than a valued colleague or friend for example. Each situation is judged on its merits however, there's no use battering someone about intellectually if it's going to destroy a valued friendship or cause stress in the workplace. I'm also loath to watse my time on a total crackpot, but luckily I know few total crackpots in real life. That's what teh Intertubez are for.

The one condition I will and do apply to that though is this: for example I am a vehement anti-racist, an ardent proponent of science and reason, and I suffer fools not even slightly. If I cannot do that at home, I have no right to take it elsewhere. In other words, when mother dearest starts banging on about homeopathy I bring her up short. Nicely but I let it be known that if she's going to spout unsubstantiated drivel at me then I will argue (however nicely). When the father-in-law starts promulgating his incredibly racist ideas I tell him, with evidence and no lack of clarity, that not only are these ideas flawed but they are positively harmful. I've got no right to tell Skeptic (for example) he's a loon if I can't also tell mother! Granted, I'm nicer to mother than I am to Skeptic! ;-)

Louis

YOU LAWRENCE WELK/ ANTONY FLEW TYPE ATHIESTS MAKE ME SICK.  THERE IS MORE FIBER IN THE STOOL OF A SUCKLING BABE THAN IN THE ENTIRE CORPUS OF YOUR FLACCID SWEATING HULK.  WE NEED MORE PAIN EXPERIMENTS ON YOU MATERIALISTS TYPES EXPLAIN THAT AWAY AS ELECTRONS PASSING IN THE NIGHT CHANCEWORSHIPPERS. [/DT]

Most of my family are religious moonbats in varying degrees.  Direct confrontation doesn't help much, it is better to shoot darts from cover.  I had them all in fits with the recipe for baking bread in Ezekiel that says cook it with burning shit.  something like the Lord said "Lo, for I hath given thee cows dung for mans dung, thou shalt cook thy bread therewith" or some such business.  And none of my aunts and uncles believed it, but granny got the Good Book down and dusted hit off, why what do you know.  Ole 'rasmus sho nuff be right bout sumtin.  I then had the floor and said, "Seems to me that if you were really interested in doing what the bible says you'd be out there scooping up patties and dispensin with all this Wonder Bread Bull Shit".  or something like that.

by the way Anti-Bigots are Bigots too.  Embrace your bigotry Louis.  Discriminating palates must choose.  For instance, I am bigoted towards politicians.  That's right.  They're all douchebags by definition.  Just lowered my BP by the same effect as praying for rain and it was for free.    Now I'm free from wondering who I should vote for.  No Body, since I don't vote for douchebags!

It's fun to win debates.  that's why you debate people who you know are wrong.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,10:49   

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,April 08 2008,16:28)
by the way Anti-Bigots are Bigots too.  Embrace your bigotry Louis.  Discriminating palates must choose.  For instance, I am bigoted towards politicians.  That's right.  They're all douchebags by definition.  Just lowered my BP by the same effect as praying for rain and it was for free.    Now I'm free from wondering who I should vote for.  No Body, since I don't vote for douchebags!

It's fun to win debates.  that's why you debate people who you know are wrong.

1) Wrong! Anti-bigots are not necessarily bigots too. There is a subset of anti-bigotry which is not like in kind to bigotry.

You keep repeating this. It will not make it true. Opposition to group/idea X does not make one immediately a member/proponent of X, nor does it follow that the only other position to occupy is -X. Not only that, one can actually be correct in some matter of dispute. Holding to a demonstrably correct position, perhaps forcefully, in the face of ignorant opposition to that position does not equate to bigotry.

Mind you, I do cheer for England when we play rugby and I fulsomely engage in international banter during test matches. That ain't bigotry, that's comedy.

2) Vile calumny and slander, I've never won a debate in my life! Well apart from those ones I didn't lose or draw.

Actually debating the perpetually unarmed and clueless is pointless, so I don't bother. Knocking holes in their crap and mocking them is an entirely different matter. Agreement or disagreement is not, and never has been, the issue.

The reasons for engaging in "serious" debate with creationists or whoever (and I am leery that this is even a good idea on occasion) is not because it is easy to win those debates, far from it, it's because creationists or whoever are trying to acheive some political or social goal that it demonstrably destructive. Demonstrating the vacuity of the claims in a public debate format is one way that the message that these chaps are full of shit can be gotten across. Personally, I don't think that in the case of creationists this is a 100% good idea. But other people's mileage may vary, and I am happy to admit that a pluralist approach to tactics is the one I favour. I am also happy to concede that for some people debate works.

From a selfish perspective engaging in debate has caused me to go and re-learn things I thought I knew well, but obviously didn't. It's helped me as a person and as a scientist. From that perspective, it's been a highly productive pastime. Never doubt the potential of debate to cause someone to learn a new thing, even in that someone is you.

3) Don't vote, the government might get in. Alternatively don't vote, it only encourages them. Personally, I don't think ALL politicians are douchebags, no more than I think all people are douchebags or all religious people are douchebags. Some people are undeniably douchebags, and some groups have a higher douchebag quotient than others. That still doesn't mean one can reliably dismiss a whole group as douchebags. Even though I know you were being tongue in cheek.

Take Margaret Thatcher for instance. Best leader any country ever had, the finest Prime Minister of the UK of all time and damn sexy to boot.

{Waits for Ian to go up in flames}

Only kidding.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,11:16   

correct, eh?  Don't make me call Skeptic over here to ask you exactly how you are correct in your question of "Who should I be bigoted against? and your answer of "Bigots".  I'm fairly sure this is the type of question (however you draw it) that we both in other circumstances agree is unanswerable in any meaningful general context (even if you change said question to 'What should I be bigoted against' and the answer is 'bigotry')

Now I know you don't frame pose the questions exactly that way.  But it's not a far cry from arguing that "2*2=4" is not bigotry, therefore "Racism = Bad" is not bigotry either.

Note I am not arguing for racism.  just ordinary old null hypotheses.  

There are many things that make good common sense that are completely immune to empirical verification.

ETA Yes indeed Margaret Thatcher was a fox, and quite the humanitarian as well.  I daresay we shall never have such a genteel lady in such a seat of power again that could carry herself with the wit and manners and lovability of dear old Maggie.  They should have made her Queen!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,11:33   

My experience is shaped by the fact that two of my four siblings are born-again Christians of the OEC variety. I'm not interested in creating conflicts within my family and stressing my elderly parents (my Dad is about to turn 89), and we generally have an understanding at this point that this topic is off limits.

More generally, I am cautious about such conversations. If I detect that an individual genuinely respects my views and intellectual integrity, and is interested in those views, I may make a simple comment without attempting to instruct or harangue. For example, if someone expresses interest in ID yet seems interested in my views, I may say something like, "You should be aware that it is my opinion that ID is not a science, and is inherently incapable of becoming a science. You should also know that I believe that the people who are telling you otherwise are lying to you. I think you would become quite angry were to you understand the degree to which you are being misled." I don't try to get into further details - it is my feeling that if the weight of their interest/respect in my views isn't sufficient to raise questions for them, no amount of detail or argumentation will.

[edit to add OEC status of sibs]

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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,11:33   

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ April 08 2008,10:28)
For instance, I am bigoted towards politicians.  That's right.  They're all douchebags by definition.  Just lowered my BP by the same effect as praying for rain and it was for free.    Now I'm free from wondering who I should vote for.  No Body, since I don't vote for douchebags!

You, know it is stereotypes like this that really piss me off.  Not all politicians are douchebags.


Some are turd sandwiches.

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it.  We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
stevestory



Posts: 10809
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,12:35   

Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,10:56)
I think that "making swishing motions with a rapidly produced knife " while muttering about "after we're in charge" comments also helps in this type of situation.

LOL

   
dheddle



Posts: 543
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,13:11   

Please tell me if by your definition (there are so many conflicting definitions) whether or not I am a creationist--so I know if I am allowed to reply.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,13:29   

Quote (dheddle @ April 08 2008,19:11)
Please tell me if by your definition (there are so many conflicting definitions) whether or not I am a creationist--so I know if I am allowed to reply.

I have no idea what others will say, but here's my two penn'orth:

Are you some species of "creationist", well yeah, but so is every theist. Hardly what is normally meant in these circles by, or associated with, "creationist"/"creationism". By that very weak definition most of my family and friends are creationists in that they have some vague notion that a god created the universe. Personally I've got no beef with them or you on that issue, regardless of the fact that I disagree vehemently and have no problems reminding you of the demonstrable falsity of elements of your/their claims.

The only thing I can see that would stick on the "naughty creationist" spectrum somewhere (at the polar opposite end from Ham and Hovind you'll be glad to know) is your advocacy of cosmological IDC. Whether or not this is sufficient for "naughty creationist" status I don't know. Some elements of your creationism do so for me, i.e. your claim that cosmological ID is supported, or at least plausible, scientifically, but that might not do it for others.

I at least have no problem with, and would even welcome, your commenting on this thread, but then I didn't start the thread. It bain't my river, I'm just pissing in it, as the old Cornish saying goes.

Louis

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Bye.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,13:52   

I've only had one conversation about it, with a bloke in his 70's.  It was in a group of castle enthusiasts, in the evening, and I made the mistake of picking up teh paper and commenting that I'd been having letters printed in it against Creationist nutters who were trying to promote ID at the time.
(THis is in Scotland, UK)
This harmless and intelligent old bloke then piped up, saying something like "Of course the universe had to be created".  
I think I managed to point out that he didn't necessarily have any scientific evidence for that, but I cannot recall exactly.  Everyone else there was either indifferent or on the bash the creationist side.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,14:17   

Quote (guthrie @ April 08 2008,13:52)
I've only had one conversation about it, with a bloke in his 70's.  It was in a group of castle enthusiasts, in the evening, and I made the mistake of picking up teh paper and commenting that I'd been having letters printed in it against Creationist nutters who were trying to promote ID at the time.
(THis is in Scotland, UK)
This harmless and intelligent old bloke then piped up, saying something like "Of course the universe had to be created".  
I think I managed to point out that he didn't necessarily have any scientific evidence for that, but I cannot recall exactly.  Everyone else there was either indifferent or on the bash the creationist side.

Ah yes.  Glad you shared this with us, and this is exactly the type of situation that my experience living with a Creo best prepares me for.

Prior to meeting my wife, I would have called the old bugger an utter and complete moron, totally devoid of any reason to live, and suggested, strongly, that he do something about it.

Now, having had the years of maturation and experience and understanding of living with a "believer", I would simply  smile at him, and tell him to shut up and piss off.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
BWE



Posts: 1901
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,14:30   

Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:17)
Quote (guthrie @ April 08 2008,13:52)
I've only had one conversation about it, with a bloke in his 70's.  It was in a group of castle enthusiasts, in the evening, and I made the mistake of picking up teh paper and commenting that I'd been having letters printed in it against Creationist nutters who were trying to promote ID at the time.
(THis is in Scotland, UK)
This harmless and intelligent old bloke then piped up, saying something like "Of course the universe had to be created".  
I think I managed to point out that he didn't necessarily have any scientific evidence for that, but I cannot recall exactly.  Everyone else there was either indifferent or on the bash the creationist side.

Ah yes.  Glad you shared this with us, and this is exactly the type of situation that my experience living with a Creo best prepares me for.

Prior to meeting my wife, I would have called the old bugger an utter and complete moron, totally devoid of any reason to live, and suggested, strongly, that he do something about it.

Now, having had the years of maturation and experience and understanding of living with a "believer", I would simply  smile at him, and tell him to shut up and piss off.

J-dog, had you ever encountered a believer before you met your wife?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,15:16   

Quote (BWE @ April 08 2008,14:30)
Quote (J-Dog @ April 08 2008,14:17)
Quote (guthrie @ April 08 2008,13:52)
I've only had one conversation about it, with a bloke in his 70's.  It was in a group of castle enthusiasts, in the evening, and I made the mistake of picking up teh paper and commenting that I'd been having letters printed in it against Creationist nutters who were trying to promote ID at the time.
(THis is in Scotland, UK)
This harmless and intelligent old bloke then piped up, saying something like "Of course the universe had to be created".  
I think I managed to point out that he didn't necessarily have any scientific evidence for that, but I cannot recall exactly.  Everyone else there was either indifferent or on the bash the creationist side.

Ah yes.  Glad you shared this with us, and this is exactly the type of situation that my experience living with a Creo best prepares me for.

Prior to meeting my wife, I would have called the old bugger an utter and complete moron, totally devoid of any reason to live, and suggested, strongly, that he do something about it.

Now, having had the years of maturation and experience and understanding of living with a "believer", I would simply  smile at him, and tell him to shut up and piss off.

J-dog, had you ever encountered a believer before you met your wife?

Yeah - I grew up with a whole Entire Catholic Family!

But of course as Catholic's we weren't Creos, and strict bible literalists like YEC's, and it was easy to see where the holes in their story was as I got older and learned to think.

So, when Mrs. J-Dog and I were dating, it never came up, as I didn't really care about religion.  It only became important with kids, and now of course because of the IDists attempts to ally with the YEC's and insert Expelled Believin' and  Bible Thumpin' into school curriculum.

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
BWE



Posts: 1901
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,15:47   

I discovered that Christians really exist, the kind that thump their bibles, only after I went to college. I've only met a handful even still.

It's quite foreign to me.

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2157
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,16:13   

Quote (dheddle @ April 08 2008,11:11)
Please tell me if by your definition (there are so many conflicting definitions) whether or not I am a creationist--so I know if I am allowed to reply.

Well, if you aren't sure neither am I.  How would you vote?  That seems more interesting than the poll anyway.

My father-in-law is deeply religious, a church elder, and so on.  He was even a member of the same church as Howard Ahmanson Jr.  He periodically askes me for facts and arguments he can use in bible classes, or church meeting regarding the evo/creato conflict.  There is nothing about being Christian that requires you to reject science.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
dheddle



Posts: 543
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,16:41   

OK then. I voted "occasionally," though if there was an "often" option I probably would have picked that. As a scientist and a Christian, I often get asked to talk about the science/faith boundary at churches and other venues. Typically a church will have an open forum--that is they will invite unbelievers. What happens--almost inevitably, is I take more grief from my fellow Christians. That is, when they find out that I am not a YEC they can be downright nasty. On the other hand, when atheists realize that I know my stuff and am not trying to convince them that ID is science, we generally have good dialog.

That is an oversimplification. Some of the Christians seem very pleased that someone is arguing that science and our faith do not have to be in tension. And that is always my goal--to reach that niche audience. I won't have any effect on atheists or YECs, but if I resonate with thinking Christians, I consider it time well spent.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
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