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oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,16:26   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,16:16)
or water erosion producing the Grand Canyon.

Now, you see this is the problem.

Everybody agrees that "water erosion" produced the Grand Canyon.

The point is how long that took and why. The "ultimate" question can safely be put aside as it makes no difference one way or the other to the science. The problem is the science does not support your view. And your view will not/cannot change and so, somehow, the science is wrong instead.

The thing is that you say that "water erosion" produced the Grand Canyon yet what you really mean is the world was covered with water, totally, and somehow Noah knew what sex his dinosaur eggs were. And shovelled literally tons of waste off the side of a boat, day in and day out. And kept all those animals fed without them eating each other. And it was not two of each type was it FL? It was many more. And then, after all that, the trip to Australia to populate it with Koalas.

You see, "water erosion" can do a lot of things. What it cannot do is make a canyon as grand as the Grand Canyon in 40 days and 40 nights.

To insist that it did happen like that, well, it puts you in the same category as people who think they are Napoleon.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,16:29   

Quote
Why not?  Because if you DO suddenly decide to announce that God is indirectly, ultimately, a required explanation for water running downhill, you immediately run into the Futuyma textbook-taught roadblock:  
Supernatural causes cannot be the subject of science
...which so many of you (including yourself) have agreed to.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not God is ultimately responsible for evolution.  Nothing.  But science can only examine that which is testable.  Are you claiming that God - the divine, the Logos, the ineffable, whose ways are mysterious to man - is a testable phenomenon?

I realize your ignorance of theology and the Bible is considerable, but that is rather extreme, don't you think?

I am a Christian, Floyd.  I am a scientist, among other things.  And I fully accept evolutionary theory.  There are no incompatibilities between evolutionary theory and Christian Doctrine.

Not one.

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,16:41   

Quote
Last time I checked (within the month, so it hasn't been that long) the bible is silent on the subject of reality

Ha!   Now y'all just KNOW that a debate topic has entered wrapup-phase when the skeptics start talkin' all WILD like that!

FloydLee     :)

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,16:44   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,16:41)
Quote
Last time I checked (within the month, so it hasn't been that long) the bible is silent on the subject of reality

Ha!   Now y'all just KNOW that a debate topic has entered wrapup-phase when the skeptics start talkin' all WILD like that!

FloydLee     :)

Way to go FL. Way to go.

And people actually thought you were serious about this.

--------------
I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:04   

Quote
Again, Floyd, you have already conceded your first "incompatible" by acknowledging that God may be responsible for (necessary and sufficient) the process of evolution, without intervening directing at any particular point.

Actually, we've already looked at Scripture (and the Pope too), and to whatever extent evolution exists (such as microevolution, but NOT macroevolution, for the latter has never been observed), God IS the required explanation for it.  

And no, you don't get to fudge by saying "without intervening directly".  After all, you've already said that God was "necessary and sufficient", thus locking Him into being the Required Explanation even if you think it's an indirect explanation.  You still bring in teleology, you still have to explain why God used a gazillion years of evolutionary animal suffering to evolve the first two humans, you still bring in your problems even when you try to make it "indirect."

And that "necessary and sufficient" you mentioned, is exactly what the theory of evolution denies.

For as Mayr pointed out, the theory of evolution explains things solely materialistically (or purely materialistically if you prefer Futuyma) and the theory of evolution no longer requires God as creator or designer.

No longer "necessary and sufficient", as you put it.

Hence the First Incompatibility remains solidly in place.

(..and that's not counting the statment of evolutionist David Oldroyd who, one poster said, knows his Darwin quite well.)

FloydLee

  
FloydLee



Posts: 577
Joined: Sep. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:15   

Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:15   

Quote
Actually, we've already looked at Scripture (and the Pope too), and to whatever extent evolution exists (such as microevolution, but NOT macroevolution, for the latter has never been observed), God IS the required explanation for it.



Nutjob!

By the way, if Da Flud deposited all those layers with dead dinos and all, what particular process actually "carved" the Grand Canyon? Why at this particular location? The mighty draining of the waters back to the fountains of the deep? If so, may we find the sinkhole to these fountains if we follow the river all the way to its end?

Just asking...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:25   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Does water flowing downhill have a goal?

Is God required for an explanation of that?

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:31   

Quote (Tracy P. Hamilton @ Oct. 14 2009,00:25)
Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Does water flowing downhill have a goal?

Is God required for an explanation of that?

yeah, but see, Yodel Elf NEEDS evolution to have a goal, so he can continue to live in his little fairytale where he is a "special creation" and his sky daddy loves him so much more because he is special...

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:38   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:04)

Floyd:
Quote
Actually, we've already looked at Scripture (and the Pope too), and to whatever extent evolution exists (such as microevolution, but NOT macroevolution, for the latter has never been observed), God IS the required explanation for it.
Not according to evolutionary theory.  Apparently you didn't even bother to read the definitions you provided.  Your definitions - the ones that you gave us, say nothing about God's involvement, because science can't test for God.  Your ignorance of both the Bible and theology apparently isn't up to knowing that.

Your definitions, Lee.  Your quotes from the Pope.  Evolutionary theory does NOT deny the ultimate cause of God; it merely explains testable mechanisms.

Quote
And no, you don't get to fudge by saying "without intervening directly".
But you've just said that, Floyd.  That was the point of the water flowing downhill example.  You've already conceded that water can operate a perfectly natural process for which God is ultimately responsible, and yet man cannot test for God.

You're on record as having conceded your first point.

Quote
After all, you've already said that God was "necessary and sufficient", thus locking Him into being the Required Explanation even if you think it's an indirect explanation.
Certainly I do.  But science cannot test that particular point, and does not include it in evolutionary theory.  It doesn't exclude it from evolutionary theory either.

You've already conceded this point, Floyd.  You're on record as having admitted that your first "incompatible" is meaningless.

Quote
You still bring in teleology,
Of course I do.  So do you.
Quote
you still have to explain why God used a gazillion years of evolutionary animal suffering to evolve the first two humans, you still bring in your problems even when you try to make it "indirect."
Ah, so you're conceding your first point again.  You cannot establish it, since you've already admitted that God is the necessary and sufficient explanation for water flowing downhill, despite the fact that it occurs naturally.

Now you're trying to argue theodicy, the ancient Problem of Evil.  But it has nothing to do with evolutionary theory; the Problem of Evil stands whether or not evolution is true.  No escape hatch for you there, Floyd.  If you'd like to discuss the POE, I'm more than willing to; but you will be unable to show that any part of evolutionary theory specifies it as a problem.

You've already conceded point 1, Floyd.  And as I showed you already, your points 2-4 are also not incompatibles.

Quote
And that "necessary and sufficient" you mentioned, is exactly what the theory of evolution denies.
Not in the slightest.  Show me the precise wording in the theory, not the comments on the theory by atheists which shows that evolution denies God.

You can't do it.  Because it's not there.  Evolutionary theory says nothing about God at all.

Quote
For as Mayr pointed out, the theory of evolution explains things solely materialistically (or purely materialistically if you prefer Futuyma) and the theory of evolution no longer requires God as creator or designer.
But this is NOT what you are claiming.  You are claiming that the theory denies the involvement of God.  It does not do so.

And you've already conceded this point, Floyd, when you admitted that God can be ultimately responsible for water flowing downhill, and yet we have a natural explanation.

Quote
No longer "necessary and sufficient", as you put it.
Mayr's opinion is not the theory, Floyd.

You provided the definition of the theory.  Show me precisely where, in your definitions, that is says God is not necessary and sufficient.  Show me.

You provided the definitions.

You show me precisely where they exclude God.

You can't.

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:38   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Evolution has no goal that we can observe.  God does.

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:40   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:04)
[snip]  as Mayr pointed out, the theory of evolution explains things solely materialistically (or purely materialistically if you prefer Futuyma) and the theory of evolution no longer requires God as creator or designer.

No longer "necessary and sufficient", as you put it.

Hence the First Incompatibility remains solidly in place.

(..and that's not counting the statment of evolutionist David Oldroyd who, one poster said, knows his Darwin quite well.)

FloydLee

As I said previously, Floyd: This is the relevant from the Mayr quote that you keep ignoring, a relevant point immediately preceding the sentence you keep trying to isolate (i.e. quotemine by removing context):
     
Quote
"The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the adaptedness and diversity of the world solely materialistically" -- Ernst Mayr

THEN Mayr says "IT [meaning the evolution of diversity] no longer requires God as creator or designer (although one is certainly still free to believe in God even if one accepts evolution)." http://sciphilos.info/docs_pages/docs_Mayr_Dawin_css.html

1) No one is obliged to agree with Mayr on any theological claims.
2) However, Mayr's statement, in context, refers to the diversity of the world's organisms by the mechanisms of adaptation and speciation. He is quite clear about that. What he is NOT speaking about is the Ultimate Origins of all things, evolution included.  
3) No Science can address sophisticated (meaning Prime Mover) claims of Ultimate Deistic Creation/Purpose. None.
4.) And lastly,even if Mayr was to make such a claim about some Ultimate Deistic Creation of all living things, so what? As you said, anyone is free to also ignore your "Big Five," accept evolution, and remain a Christian -- by your own admission.

---------------------------------

There's four reasons why you're wrong. Any one of them is good enough to negate your attempt at "battling quotes." These things were pointed out to you many times so far, but you refuse to acknowledge them anyway, pretending they don't exist.

Just as you admit that water obeys the laws of gravity that make water run downhill, There is room for belief that evolution, set in existence and action by a God, obeys rules that can be known by man.

What science cannot investigate is ultimate deistic teleology/ontology. This always, always leaves room for faith. Even people as divergently opinionated as Mayr and the Pope agree on that point.  

This is more straightforward and honest than nutcases trying to prove God by using obvious fallacies.

--------------
AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:43   

Quote (Dan @ Oct. 13 2009,02:11)
[...]

In fact, FL has been shown five ways to escape it.  According to FL, these five posters have all performed a task that cannot be performed!

Thank you, FL, for considering the five of us to be superhumans who can perform amazing feats of reasoning!

And they probably violated the SLoT while doing it!!111!!one!! :p

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:48   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,07:38)
The theory of evolution says nothing about God.  Nothing.  God might be involved, God might not, but the theory does not EXCLUDE the possibility that God might be required.

Yes.  It does.  For two reasons, Futuyma's EB3 textbook pointed out.  

First, evolution does not admit conscious anticipation of the future (and before you respond, consider the fact that nobody has offered an evolutionist refutation for THAT one in all 39 pages of this debate), and with the God of Genesis you definitely get 100 percent conscious anticipation of the future.  

Second, you would automatically eliminate the claim that supernatural processes cannot be the subject of science, and with that, you open the legal door for teaching creationism in public school.  

(Which is all right by me, but I think you have a problem with it, eh?).

Evolution itself does not use anticipation of the future. That does not contradict the notion that some agency outside of the evolution process might be using it for something.

  
Schroedinger's Dog



Posts: 1692
Joined: Jan. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:52   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 14 2009,00:43)
Quote (Dan @ Oct. 13 2009,02:11)
[...]

In fact, FL has been shown five ways to escape it.  According to FL, these five posters have all performed a task that cannot be performed!

Thank you, FL, for considering the five of us to be superhumans who can perform amazing feats of reasoning!

And they probably violated the SLoT while doing it!!111!!one!! :p

Ahhh, the SLoT, my favorite!

Creotard: "the SLoT requires an external source of energy to allow change. That source is God!!!1111oneshift!!"

Normal guy: "look up, fucktard"


The End

--------------
"Hail is made out of water? Are you really that stupid?" Joe G

"I have a better suggestion, Kris. How about a game of hide and go fuck yourself instead." Louis

"The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is that vampires are allergic to bullshit" Richard Pryor

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:57   

Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,10:17)
As I have no edit ability.  Here's a few questions:

1:  There are 6 Kingdoms of life.  Then there are Viruses and Prions.  Where do they all fit into the "Tree of Life" from a Creationist POV?

2:  How are the cells of plants (and the other non-animal cells) different from animal cells?

Those are two but I will think of more.

Well, plant cells have cellulose, and some of them have chlorophyll.

Six kingdoms? I've heard of plants, animals, and fungi being referred to as kingdoms. What other three taxa are called kingdoms? (In what I've read, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, and Archaea are sometimes called domains.)

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,17:58   

Quote (Constant Mews @ Oct. 13 2009,10:17)
Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,11:08)
Wow, so there's a different definition between "life" in animals and "life" in plants?  Where does fungi, bacterium, etc, fit in?

Having no nostrils within which the breath of life may be found, they are not living, of course.

You must keep up with your ancient Hebrew.

What does that say about insects, spiders, etc., since they breath through their skin? :p

  
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:01   

Quote (didymos @ Oct. 13 2009,10:53)
Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,09:27)
Quote (Constant Mews @ Oct. 13 2009,11:17)
 
Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,11:08)
Wow, so there's a different definition between "life" in animals and "life" in plants?  Where does fungi, bacterium, etc, fit in?

Having no nostrils within which the breath of life may be found, they are not living, of course.

You must keep up with your ancient Hebrew.

Fish do not breath from their nostrils.  Sponges and jellyfish, animals last time I checked, have no nostrils.  Also, please correct me if I'm wrong) but I seem to remember that there are a few animals that breath through their skin as well.  Are they in the same category as plants?

And what about stomata?  Don't those count?

Nah, the stomata flunked math. :p

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:28   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 13 2009,17:58)
Quote (Constant Mews @ Oct. 13 2009,10:17)
Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,11:08)
Wow, so there's a different definition between "life" in animals and "life" in plants?  Where does fungi, bacterium, etc, fit in?

Having no nostrils within which the breath of life may be found, they are not living, of course.

You must keep up with your ancient Hebrew.

What does that say about insects, spiders, etc., since they breath through their skin? :p

Sorry, they're not alive either.

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:33   

And because I'm willing to take pity on Floyd, who is clearly a lost soul desperate to find his faith again.

Francis Collins (head of the Human Genome Project):
Quote
[Evolution] may seem to us like a slow, inefficient, and even random process, but to God—who's not limited by space or time—it all came together in the blink of an eye. And for us who have been given the gift of intelligence and the ability to appreciate the wonders of the natural world that he created, to have now learned about this evolutionary creative process is a source of awe and wonder. I find these discoveries are completely compatible with everything I know about God through the Scriptures.


Quote
If evolution is true, don't atheists have a point?
No. To simply rule out of order any questions that go beyond the natural world is a circular argument. This leaves out profoundly important spiritual questions, such as why we are here, if there is a God, and what happens after we die. Those are questions that science is not really designed to answer. You have to look in another place, using another kind of approach. And for me that's faith.


Quote
My heart goes out to sincere believers who feel threatened by evolution and who feel that they have to maintain their position against it in order to prove their allegiance to God. But if God used this process and gave us the chance to discover it, then it seems anachronistic, to say the least, that we would feel we have to defend him against our own scientific conclusions. God is the author of all truth. You can find him in the laboratory as well as in the cathedral. He's the God of the Bible; he's the God of the genome. He did it all.


all taken from here.

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:36   

And again, for Floyd's benefit:

Kenneth Miller

Quote
Q: Why is evolution so controversial?

Kenneth Miller: I think one of the reasons why evolution is such a contentious issue, quite frankly, is the same reason you can go into a bar and start a fight by saying something about somebody's mother. Evolution concerns who we are and how we got here. And to an awful lot of people, the story of evolution, the story of our continuity with every other living thing on this planet, that's not a story they want to hear.

They favor an entirely different story, in which our ancestry is separate, our biology distinct, and the whole notion of our lineage traceable not to other organisms, but to some sort of divine power and divine presence. But it's absolutely true that our ancestry traces itself along the same thread as that of every other living organism. That, for many people, is the unwelcome message, and I think that's why evolution has been, is, and will remain such a controversial idea for many years to come.

Q: Where do you come from personally on this topic?

Miller: I think that faith and reason are both gifts from God. And if God is real, then faith and reason should complement each other rather than be in conflict. Science is the child of reason. Reason has given us the ability to establish the scientific method to investigate the world around us, and to show that the world and the universe in which we live are far vaster and far more complex, and I think far more wonderful, than anyone could have imagined 1,000 or 2,000 years ago.

Does that mean that scientific reason, by taking some of the mystery out of nature, has taken away faith? I don't think so. I think by revealing a world that is infinitely more complex and infinitely more varied and creative than we had ever believed before, in a way it deepens our faith and our appreciation for the author of that nature, the author of that physical universe. And to people of faith, that author is God.

Now, I'm a scientist and I have faith in God. But that doesn't make faith a scientific proposition. Faith and reason are both necessary to the religious person for a proper understanding of the world in which we live, and there is ultimately no necessary contradiction between reason and faith.

"Whether God exists or not is not a scientific question."

Q: What's wrong with bringing God into the picture as an explanation?

Miller: Supernatural causes for natural phenomena are always possible. What's different, however, in the scientific view is the acknowledgement that if supernatural causes are there, they are above our capacity to analyze and interpret.

Saying that something has a supernatural cause is always possible, but saying that the supernatural can be investigated by science, which always has to work with natural tools and mechanisms, is simply incorrect. So by placing the supernatural as a cause in science, you effectively have what you might call a science-stopper. If you attribute an event to the supernatural, you can by definition investigate it no further.

If you close off investigation, you don't look for natural causes. If we had done that 100 years ago in biology, think of what we wouldn't have discovered because we would have said, "Well, the designer did it. End of story. Let's go do something else." It would have been a terrible day for science.

Q: Does science have limits to what it can tell us?

Miller: If science is competent at anything, it's in investigating the natural and material world around us. What science isn't very good at is answering questions that also matter to us in a big way, such as the meaning, value, and purpose of things. Science is silent on those issues. There are a whole host of philosophical and moral questions that are important to us as human beings for which we have to make up our minds using a method outside of science.

Q: Can science prove or disprove the existence of a creator, of God?

Miller: Whether God exists or not is not a scientific question.


taken from here.

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:38   

So once again, I ask Floyd a basic question which goes to the heart of his confusion on this subject, and may directly influence his inability to form a coherent and rational argument.

The theory of evolution says nothing about God; nothing at all.

Various scientists, some atheists, some theists say that the theory of evolution says something about God.

Do you understand the difference?

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,18:52   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 13 2009,15:57)
Six kingdoms? I've heard of plants, animals, and fungi being referred to as kingdoms. What other three taxa are called kingdoms? (In what I've read, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, and Archaea are sometimes called domains.)

Well, depends on the source, but for those that do go for the six kingdom thing, they are:

I. Plants
II. Animals
III. Fungi
IV. Protists
V. Bacteria
VI. Archaea

with the first four corresponding to Woese's Eukarya domain.

(edited for obsolete terminology)

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5455
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:15   

Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 13 2009,18:57)
Six kingdoms? I've heard of plants, animals, and fungi being referred to as kingdoms. What other three taxa are called kingdoms? (In what I've read, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, and Archaea are sometimes called domains.)

Apparently that shit is in constant flux, and the three you're looking for would be Archaea, Protists, and Bacteria.*

But then as you've noted there is the system with Archaea and Prokarya elevated to Domains alongside Eukaryotes, but in that system there are like 17 kingdoms of Bacteria or some monster-high number like that, depending on who you ask, and I've seen one source quoted in one of my textbooks that claimed 33 or 36 kingdoms.

Biologists are fine-tuning the system to the point now that they have to add all kinds of crap like "Subkingdom", "Superphylum" etc and remembering all that seems a rather pointless pain in the ass. It's just not holding up well over time, with all due respect to Linnaeus. It's still a good introduction to nested hierarchies in a general visual overview kind of way, and it's reputed to retain some more direct usefulness, but it's a mess now, if you ask me.

I like Cladistics better, where there's less emphasis on a set of hierarchical nomenclature and more emphasis on common ancestors and relative relationships. Cladistics doesn't care if your species is 25 levels deep over here and your other species is only 12 levels deep over there.

YMMV

*Before reading further allow me to remind you that I'm just a baby biologist (see sig).

ETA: fist shaking at didymos

Edited by Lou FCD on Oct. 13 2009,20:17

--------------
“Why do creationists have such a hard time with commas?

Linky“. ~ Steve Story, Legend

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:26   

Quote (didymos @ Oct. 13 2009,18:52)
Quote (Henry J @ Oct. 13 2009,15:57)
Six kingdoms? I've heard of plants, animals, and fungi being referred to as kingdoms. What other three taxa are called kingdoms? (In what I've read, Prokaryotes, Eukaryotes, and Archaea are sometimes called domains.)

Well, depends on the source, but for those that do go for the six kingdom thing, they are:

I. Plants
II. Animals
III. Fungi
IV. Protists
V. Bacteria
VI. Archaea

with the first four corresponding to Woese's Eukarya domain.

(edited for obsolete terminology)

V. should be Eubacteria... but I digress

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:35   

Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Saying Evolution has no goal is not entirely accurate.  It has no conscious goal but evolution does produce a goal of sorts.  Evolution works on populations.  The "goal" is for the population to adapt to the climate, available food, predominate predator/prey , etc.

So like water flowing downhill, evolution has a goal.  Granted it is harder to quantify but as water seeks the lowest level without conscious thought, Evolution works on populations to make the organisms in that population be better adapted to their environment.

So does Evolution have a Goal?  Yes!  Is Evolution diurected?  Yes!  Is this directed action conscious?  There is no evidence to suggest that there's any intelligence behind it so there is no direction.

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:43   

Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,19:35)
Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Saying Evolution has no goal is not entirely accurate.  It has no conscious goal but evolution does produce a goal of sorts.  Evolution works on populations.  The "goal" is for the population to adapt to the climate, available food, predominate predator/prey , etc.

So like water flowing downhill, evolution has a goal.  Granted it is harder to quantify but as water seeks the lowest level without conscious thought, Evolution works on populations to make the organisms in that population be better adapted to their environment.

So does Evolution have a Goal?  Yes!  Is Evolution directed?  Yes!  Is this directed action conscious?  There is no evidence to suggest that there's any intelligence behind it so there is no consciousness directing what is the outcome of what comes out of the changes made to the populations made by evolutionary forces.

Ugh, I would like an edUgh, I would like an edit function.

The text in BOLD is what I was trying to say.it function.

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:51   

Quote (FrankH @ Oct. 13 2009,19:35)
Quote (FloydLee @ Oct. 13 2009,17:15)
Here's a question for the entire house.  Given the following statement:

"Evolution has no goal."  (Sources already cited.)

Does ANYBODY in this forum disagree with that specific statement?

Saying Evolution has no goal is not entirely accurate.  It has no conscious goal but evolution does produce a goal of sorts.  Evolution works on populations.  The "goal" is for the population to adapt to the climate, available food, predominate predator/prey , etc.

So like water flowing downhill, evolution has a goal.  Granted it is harder to quantify but as water seeks the lowest level without conscious thought, Evolution works on populations to make the organisms in that population be better adapted to their environment.

So does Evolution have a Goal?  Yes!  Is Evolution diurected?  Yes!  Is this directed action conscious?  There is no evidence to suggest that there's any intelligence behind it so there is no direction.

It might be more accurate to say that evolutionary theory specifies no measurable teleological goal.  Given perfect information, we could predict precisely what evolution would produce.

Even the use of terminology like "purpose" and "goal" confuses the issue; by direct measurement, most evolution has no testable teleological component (we must exclude stock-keeping and breeding from this consideration, though these are also examples of evolution).

  
Constant Mews



Posts: 323
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,19:54   

FrankH said:
Quote
There is no evidence to suggest that there's any intelligence behind it so there is no consciousness directing what is the outcome of what comes out of the changes made to the populations made by evolutionary forces.


You are making a logic error here: you are claiming that absence of evidence for teleology constitutes actual absence of teleology.  This is not the case. Is it rational to operate in a sans deos mode?  Given the impossibility of proving the existence or non-existence of God coupled with the lack of solid empirical evidence, yes, it is.

  
FrankH



Posts: 525
Joined: Feb. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Oct. 13 2009,20:13   

Quote (Constant Mews @ Oct. 13 2009,19:51)
It might be more accurate to say that evolutionary theory specifies no measurable teleological goal.  Given perfect information, we could predict precisely what evolution would produce.

Even the use of terminology like "purpose" and "goal" confuses the issue; by direct measurement, most evolution has no testable teleological component (we must exclude stock-keeping and breeding from this consideration, though these are also examples of evolution).

One of the issues that I think makes evolution so difficult is that there are so many "moving parts" to it.  Not only would we need perfect information, we'd also need to control all the variables in the natural selection process.

What I'd like to see from a creationist is them to describe the exact path and the groves it creates in the sand when they pour water down a sandy embankment.  After all, it's simple fluid dynamics, gravity and particle dynamics, right?  With that, they should be able to predict how the water flows and the grooves left in the sand, right?

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Marriage is not a lifetime commitment, it's a life sentence!

  
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