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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Uncommonly Dense Thread 3

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CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,09:52    Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 13 2010,04:56) Design Inference: Mr. Arrington will be blogging about yesterday's shooting today or tomorrow. FWIW, Dr. Bishop was a neurobiologist, eddicated at Harvard. It's all right, she had a concealed-carry permit and she thought they were abortionists.

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,10:10    Quote (midwifetoad @ Feb. 13 2010,09:49)     Quote Which is why evolution only samples a tiny portion of possible solutions. One thing I've never understood is why the probability calculations of IDers never take into account the amazing wastage represented by sexual reproduction. Sperm cells will have more mutations, because they have undergone more divisions. The percentage that win the lottery is astronomically low. So you have a mechanism that produces and filters billions of "offspring" per individual in each generation. The really detrimental mutations are quickly lethal, without affecting the adult population, and at relatively low cost. Time for a musical number! www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8 -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

damitall Posts: 331 Joined: Jan. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,10:26    Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 13 2010,08:17) Quote GilDodgen: The problem is that living systems are not just transparently intelligently designed; they are intelligently engineered. It’s not just ID; it’s IE. ID, i.e. IE Quote GilDodgen: Those of us who design and engineer functionally integrated systems, especially information-processing systems, know what is required. I engineer, therefore I am. Quote GilDodgen: Trial and error do play a role, but the trials are always planned in advance, based on what has been learned so far, so as to minimize wasted effort. Except that every fossil organism is adapted to its own environment. Quote GilDodgen: Mindless, unplanned trials are never considered, because their number is essentially infinite, and the probability of success as a result of such an approach is obviously zero. Which is why evolution only samples a tiny portion of possible solutions. Quote GilDodgen: Once a proof-of-concept study has been completed and validated, and initial prototype engineering has shown promise, a team of engineers with specialized expertise (in our case, electrical, mechanical, aeronautical, and software engineers) pursue the final goal with much teamwork, thought, planning, and dogged determination. So the Intelligent Designer Engineer was a committee? Oddly enough, there is a poster "Socrates" over at TalkRational who claims exactly that there are or were "Intelligent Designer Teams" or committees. If you go say "hi" to him, whatever you do don't address him as "Socrates" He prefers "Soccy"  or "Idiot"

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,10:35    Has anyone ever asked one of these engineers how you go about designing a useful protein without being omniscient? It would seem to me that even an omniscient engineer would have to sort through all the variations and all the outcomes, even if having the advantage of knowing all at once. Of course the task of any designer would be made easier by arbitrarily limiting each change in design to small steps, consistent with what is observed in biology. Still, even if you knew your new organism would be structurally viable, you would have to anticipate all the ripples in the ecosystem. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

rhmc Posts: 340 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,10:59    Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 13 2010,10:52) Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 13 2010,04:56) Design Inference: Mr. Arrington will be blogging about yesterday's shooting today or tomorrow. FWIW, Dr. Bishop was a neurobiologist, eddicated at Harvard. It's all right, she had a concealed-carry permit and she thought they were abortionists. what does the flag flying at half mast at UAH mean? it means they're hiring...

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,14:53    Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 12 2010,02:08) P.S. Was it Joe G. who was threatening Hermagoras with violence a couple of years ago? YES. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,16:04    Quote (rhmc @ Feb. 13 2010,10:59) Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 13 2010,10:52) Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 13 2010,04:56) Design Inference: Mr. Arrington will be blogging about yesterday's shooting today or tomorrow. FWIW, Dr. Bishop was a neurobiologist, eddicated at Harvard. It's all right, she had a concealed-carry permit and she thought they were abortionists. what does the flag flying at half mast at UAH mean? it means they're hiring... Design inference invoked: Amy has a history with firearms. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

jswilkins Posts: 50 Joined: June 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,17:35    Design inferences are fully justified when you are dealing with intentional agents. She is, I believe, one of those. -------------- Boldly staying where no man has stayed before.

Maya Posts: 702 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,18:28    Quote (Richardthughes @ Feb. 13 2010,14:53) Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 12 2010,02:08) P.S. Was it Joe G. who was threatening Hermagoras with violence a couple of years ago? YES. I thought that was all just posturing in the hopes of getting to bump uglies with Granny Denyse.

tsig Posts: 339 Joined: Aug. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,19:53    Quote (fnxtr @ Feb. 12 2010,10:21) Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 12 2010,02:23) Here's some "ID-related research":Fabricated Quote Used to Discredit Climate Scientist from The Independent newspaper.       Quote (snip) In fact, the earliest record of the quote comes not from 15 years ago but from November 2006 when it appeared in a newspaper column written by the journalist Piers Akerman in the Australian newspaper The Daily Telegraph. Akerman, a controversial right-wing columnist and global warming sceptic, appears to be the first person to use the quote verbatim in an opinion piece criticising the Stern Review, which looked at the economic effects of global warming. "This alarmist approach reeked of stupidity, snake oil, and misguided gospel preaching but was in line with a formula adopted by the first chairman of the IPCC, Sir John Houghton, who produced the IPCC's first three reports in 1990, 1995 and 2001 and wrote in his book Global Warming, The Complete Briefing, in 1994: 'Unless we announce disasters no one will listen'," Mr Akerman said. (snip) That's how ID does it's research too.  One person tells a lie and the whole ID Noise Machine repeats it over and over and over again.  Nobody bothers to check to see if the quote is real because that smells too much like "peer review" or something else that the atheists do. FOUR YEARS and no-one checked to see if this quotation was actually in the book? Sad. Facts are for small minds. IDers are contemplating the very mind of (god) the designer. Hubris, it isn't just a word in the dictionary.

Freelurker Posts: 82 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,20:43    So funny. Gil Dodgen is running another one of his cheerleading sessions for technicians and engineers who are IDists. (Not Just Intelligently Designed, Intelligently Engineered)   The following response of mine never appeared:         Quote Freelurker 02/13/2010 4:51 pm Your comment is awaiting moderation. Gil, If you were confident in your position you would go outside your blog and try to convince the general population of engineers. If you IDists just keep to yourselves, engineers are sure to continue to ignore the ID movement and to accept the theory of evolution. One thing you could do, as I suggested once before, is contact the National Academy of Engineering and explain to them why it is obvious they shouldn't be celebrating the work of Charles Darwin. I bet that all the engineers reading this would like to hear the NAE's response. Another thing you could do, as I recently suggested to Timaeus, is get the Discovery Institute to put out some press releases promoting such IDist notions as "ID is an engineering science," "ID is reverse engineering," and "Engineers instinctively believe in ID." These guys are just as nutty when they talk about engineering as when they talk about science. Edited to add: The comment appeared late the next day, way back in the thread. -------------- Invoking intelligent design in science is like invoking gremlins in engineering. [after Mark Isaak.] All models are wrong, some models are useful. - George E. P. Box

sparc Posts: 2088 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 13 2010,23:38    Quote (CeilingCat @ Feb. 13 2010,09:52)     Quote (Bob O'H @ Feb. 13 2010,04:56) Design Inference: Mr. Arrington will be blogging about yesterday's shooting today or tomorrow. FWIW, Dr. Bishop was a neurobiologist, eddicated at Harvard. It's all right, she had a concealed-carry permit and she thought they were abortionists. Wait until Barry finds out that she was a scientific consultant for the Clergy Letter Project. ETA: and somone called her "socialist" on "rate my professor"!! UPDATE: scordova is playing the "clergy letter project card": Quote Amy Bishop was charged in the murder of several people recently. Now, there are some very fine Darwinists like Francis Collins, and I don’t mean to say Amy Bishop is representative of all Darwinists. But I’d recommend that if the clergy wishes to put on a good face for Darwinism, they might consider disassociating themselves from Amy Bishop. In other words:   Quote [slimy]I don't actually say that Francis Collins is the next to kill his colleagues but if that should happen one day don't say I didn't warn you.[/slimy] -------------- "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God." - William Dembski -

Quack Posts: 1961 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,03:59    Quote (midwifetoad @ Feb. 13 2010,10:35) Has anyone ever asked one of these engineers how you go about designing a useful protein without being omniscient? It would seem to me that even an omniscient engineer would have to sort through all the variations and all the outcomes, even if having the advantage of knowing all at once. Of course the task of any designer would be made easier by arbitrarily limiting each change in design to small steps, consistent with what is observed in biology. Still, even if you knew your new organism would be structurally viable, you would have to anticipate all the ripples in the ecosystem. Seems to me that applies to all fields of design: Steam engine design     Quote The history of the steam engine stretches back as far as the first century AD; the first recorded rudimentary steam engine being the aeolipile  described by Hero of Alexandria.[2]  In the following centuries, the few engines known about were essentially experimental devices used by inventors to demonstrate the properties of steam, such as the rudimentary steam turbine device described by Taqi al-Din[3]  in 1551 and Giovanni Branca[4]  in 1629. Following the invention by Denis Papin of the steam digester in 1679, and a first piston steam engine in 1690, the first practical steam-powered 'engine' was a water pump, developed in 1698 by Thomas Savery. It proved only to have a limited lift height and was prone to boiler explosions, but it still received some use for mines and pumping stations. -------------- Rocks have no biology.               Robert Byers.

CeilingCat Posts: 2363 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,04:08    In the First Things End of ID thread, Francis Beckwith gives us a little history:     Quote ... there's no doubt that I've moved from "ID could be promising" to "ID--in its most important form, the Behe-Dembski project--is flawed." This began in late summer 2003, right after my wife and I moved to Waco and I had testified at a school board hearing in Texas (By the way, one of my great regrets). ... I was considering resigning as a DI fellow in late summer 2003, but hung on because I did not want those who opposed my hiring at Baylor to appear to "have won." (I am a competitive SOB). It wasn't until Summer 2007 that I resigned from DI, largely because I had lost out on an endowed Chair at a Pac-10 school because of the affiliation. So Beckwith held on to his Discovery Institute fellowship for four years after he first realized ID was bogus because he's a competitive SOB. Dembski wrote somewhere that he got a $40,000 a year salary from the DI.  Does anybody know if all of the DI fellows are paid and if so, how much Beckwith made in four years while his competitive nature kept him from resigning? I see that Wikipedia says:   Quote Published reports state that the institute has awarded $3.6 million in fellowships of $5,000 to $60,000 per year to 50 researchers since the CSC's founding in 1996.[21] "I was one of the early beneficiaries of Discovery largess," says William A. Dembski, who, during the three years after completing graduate school in 1996 could not secure a university position, received what he calls "a standard academic salary" of $40,000 a year through the institute. but it doesn't say that all fellows get paid.

k.e.. Posts: 5432 Joined: May 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,09:04    Quote Wait until Barry finds out that she was a scientific consultant for the Clergy Letter Project. Expect Barry to claim Darwin is responsible for black trench coats, first person shoot 'em ups and tenured female biologists. -------------- "I get a strong breeze from my monitor every time k.e. puts on his clown DaveTard suit" dogdidit "ID is deader than Lenny Flanks granmaws dildo batteries" Erasmus "I'm busy studying scientist level science papers" Galloping Gary Gaulin

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,09:20    Quote SCheesman: Well, in fact, as the “Edge of Evolution” has demonstrated, the “evolutionary” optimization generally makes single steps in solution space (one mutation at a time). It is NOT good at taking multiple steps simultaneously, the reason being that the probabilistic resources are insufficient to pick the target from the exponentially increasing number of less fit solutions that involve two or more mutations. In other words, once it gets stuck in a local minimum, it demonstrably does not and cannot (except in the rarest instances of double-mutations) take simultaneous, multi-parameter modifications in order to jump to a new path. That behaviour is decidedly non-biological. Recombination is quite capable of moving replicators off of local fitness peaks—and with a reasonable probability of viability. Indeed, single point mutations are necessary, but not sufficient for robust evolution. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,09:22    Quote (sparc @ Feb. 14 2010,00:38) UPDATE: scordova is playing the "clergy letter project card":       Quote Amy Bishop was charged in the murder of several people recently. Now, there are some very fine Darwinists like Francis Collins, and I don’t mean to say Amy Bishop is representative of all Darwinists. But I’d recommend that if the clergy wishes to put on a good face for Darwinism, they might consider disassociating themselves from Amy Bishop. In other words:         Quote [slimy]I don't actually say that Francis Collins is the next to kill his colleagues but if that should happen one day don't say I didn't warn you.[/slimy] UD can always count on Slimy Sal when in need of someone to squat, pants around ankles, and curl a fetid, steaming turd into his shoes. When BarryA is unavailable, that is. Put yer shoes on, Sal. -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

Maya Posts: 702 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,09:32    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 14 2010,09:22) Quote (sparc @ Feb. 14 2010,00:38) UPDATE: scordova is playing the "clergy letter project card":       Quote Amy Bishop was charged in the murder of several people recently. Now, there are some very fine Darwinists like Francis Collins, and I don’t mean to say Amy Bishop is representative of all Darwinists. But I’d recommend that if the clergy wishes to put on a good face for Darwinism, they might consider disassociating themselves from Amy Bishop. In other words:         Quote [slimy]I don't actually say that Francis Collins is the next to kill his colleagues but if that should happen one day don't say I didn't warn you.[/slimy] UD can always count on Slimy Sal when in need of someone to squat, pants around ankles, and curl a fetid, steaming turd into his shoes. When BarryA is unavailable, that is. Put yer shoes on, Sal. Wow, that nearly made me hurl my See's chocolates.  Not good Valentine's reading. Sal reminds me of something I'd wipe off the bottom of my shoe.  Quickly.

JohnK Posts: 13 Joined: Mar. 2009 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,09:55    Like Dembski, Beckwith enjoys posting mocking pictures. He appears, with a hilarious justification,  in the comments. (Now taken down, FB with 4 pix portrayed himself to his nemesis as Jerry Seinfeld to a very ugly Newman.)

REC Posts: 638 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,10:31    Too bad my socks are dead.....I'd love to ask Sal what anti-Semitic sites he hangs out at. Apparently "Jewish" doesn't get enough respect to get a capital letter from him-aren't we cutting someone out of the Abrahamic Judeo-(Islamo)-Christian tradition that the UDers are so fond of?   Quote Things only get complicated if she was a biology professor AND a Christian AND a active church member.” Some anti-semeitic {sic} websites speculate she is jewish. Sal hearts stormfront..... Edit: Sal is now asking "To the evolutionists here at UD, is this conception of reality not consistent with the notions of Darwinism?'' And who exactly would that be Sal?  Who is left?

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,12:47    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/us/14alabama.html?hp Quote On Saturday afternoon, the police in Braintree, Mass., announced that 24 years ago, Dr. Bishop had fatally wounded her brother, Seth Bishop, in an argument at their home, which The Boston Globe first reported on its Web site. The police were considering reopening the case, in which she was not charged and the report by the officer on duty at the time was no longer available, said Paul Frazier, the Braintree police chief. “The release of Ms. Bishop did not sit well with the police officers,” Chief Frazier said in a statement, “and I can assure you that this would not happen in this day and age.” He said at a news conference on Saturday that the original account describing the shooting as an accident had been inaccurate and, The Globe said, that while he was reluctant to use the word “cover-up,” it did not “look good” that the detailed records of the case have been missing since 1988. -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

sledgehammer Posts: 533 Joined: Sep. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,12:54    Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 14 2010,07:20)     Quote SCheesman: Well, in fact, as the “Edge of Evolution” has demonstrated, the “evolutionary” optimization generally makes single steps in solution space (one mutation at a time). It is NOT good at taking multiple steps simultaneously, the reason being that the probabilistic resources are insufficient to pick the target from the exponentially increasing number of less fit solutions that involve two or more mutations. In other words, once it gets stuck in a local minimum, it demonstrably does not and cannot (except in the rarest instances of double-mutations) take simultaneous, multi-parameter modifications in order to jump to a new path. That behaviour is decidedly non-biological. Recombination is quite capable of moving replicators off of local fitness peaks—and with a reasonable probability of viability. Indeed, single point mutations are necessary, but not sufficient for robust evolution. And in that same vein: How many simultaneous single-point mutations are involved in crossing over, gene duplication, and polyploidal events?  By standard Behe/Dembski/ID calculation methods, we would take the probability of a single-point mutation, and raise it by the number of base pairs involved, to get 1 in 10 to the bazillion chances of it ever happening. -------------- The majority of the stupid is invincible and guaranteed for all time. The terror of their tyranny is alleviated by their lack of consistency. -A. Einstein  (H/T, JAD) If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. ?Think about that. -K. Hovind

oldmanintheskydidntdoit Posts: 4999 Joined: July 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,13:52    Quote (REC @ Feb. 14 2010,10:31) Too bad my socks are dead.....I'd love to ask Sal what anti-Semitic sites he hangs out at. Apparently "Jewish" doesn't get enough respect to get a capital letter from him-aren't we cutting someone out of the Abrahamic Judeo-(Islamo)-Christian tradition that the UDers are so fond of?     Quote Things only get complicated if she was a biology professor AND a Christian AND a active church member.” Some anti-semeitic {sic} websites speculate she is jewish. Sal hearts stormfront..... Edit: Sal is now asking "To the evolutionists here at UD, is this conception of reality not consistent with the notions of Darwinism?'' And who exactly would that be Sal?  Who is left? I did a quick search, nothing specific about her being Jewish as yet on google news anyway. Could it be that Sal reads that shit firsthand? Anybody with a sock ask how come he knows that so fast? -------------- I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies". FTK if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand Gordon Mullings

Tony M Nyphot Posts: 491 Joined: June 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,14:38    Quote (Reciprocating Bill @ Feb. 14 2010,08:22)   Quote (sparc @ Feb. 14 2010,00:38) UPDATE: scordova is playing the "clergy letter project card":         Quote Amy Bishop was charged in the murder of several people recently. Now, there are some very fine Darwinists like Francis Collins, and I don’t mean to say Amy Bishop is representative of all Darwinists. But I’d recommend that if the clergy wishes to put on a good face for Darwinism, they might consider disassociating themselves from Amy Bishop. In other words:           Quote [slimy]I don't actually say that Francis Collins is the next to kill his colleagues but if that should happen one day don't say I didn't warn you.[/slimy] UD can always count on Slimy Sal when in need of someone to squat, pants around ankles, and curl a fetid, steaming turd into his shoes. When BarryA is unavailable, that is. Put yer shoes on, Sal. Perhaps a sock could remind Slimy of Matthew J Murray, a home-schooled christian raised in a devout Arvada (BarryAss' locale), Colorado household. Upon expulsion from the 12-week missionary program with Youth With A Mission, went to the Arvada church, shot 4 people (killing 2), then drove to Colorado Springs and shot 5 more (killing 2 teenage girls). I dunno...being denied tenure after many years or expulsion from a 12-week program...I guess they are weighted equally in the gravity of life? -------------- "I, OTOH, am an underachiever...I either pee my pants or faint dead away..." FTK "You could always wrap fresh fish in the paper you publish it on, though, and sell that." - Field Man on how to find value in Gary Gaulin's real-science "theory"

Reciprocating Bill Posts: 4265 Joined: Oct. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,15:43    Quote (Tony M Nyphot @ Feb. 14 2010,15:38) Perhaps a sock could remind Slimy of Matthew J Murray, a home-schooled christian raised in a devout Arvada (BarryAss' locale), Colorado household. Not just locale. IIRC BarryA was directly involved with that church program, although left some years prior to that incident. ETA: I consulted an unimpeachable source (me) and indeed found that Barry has reported "I live in Arvada, Colorado, and for many years I attended the church associated with the YWAM shooting on Sunday." -------------- Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be. "The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you." - David Foster Wallace "Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down." - Barry Arrington

REC Posts: 638 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,15:45    Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ Feb. 14 2010,13:52) Quote (REC @ Feb. 14 2010,10:31) Too bad my socks are dead.....I'd love to ask Sal what anti-Semitic sites he hangs out at. Apparently "Jewish" doesn't get enough respect to get a capital letter from him-aren't we cutting someone out of the Abrahamic Judeo-(Islamo)-Christian tradition that the UDers are so fond of?     Quote Things only get complicated if she was a biology professor AND a Christian AND a active church member.” Some anti-semeitic {sic} websites speculate she is jewish. Sal hearts stormfront..... Edit: Sal is now asking "To the evolutionists here at UD, is this conception of reality not consistent with the notions of Darwinism?'' And who exactly would that be Sal?  Who is left? I did a quick search, nothing specific about her being Jewish as yet on google news anyway. Could it be that Sal reads that shit firsthand? Anybody with a sock ask how come he knows that so fast? I wasn't entirely joking with the Stormfront quip.  I did a few google searches, and came up with nothing tasteful regarding her religion.   I wonder what new and lovely lists my IP address is now on. Sal himself identifies the reference as anti-Semitic, which makes one wonder: 1) Why he's reading those sites first-hand(though I troll ID, so you know....) 2) Why it matters so much to him that she be Jewish that he would repeat this on UD. 3) What in the realm of all things insane he considers legitimate sources.

midwifetoad Posts: 4003 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,16:45    Jewish or not, there is a Rosenberg in the story: http://www.boston.com/news....ec.html -------------- Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

Zachriel Posts: 2723 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,21:33    Quote Granville Sewell: I have posted a summary of the contents of each chapter here. Quote Can ‘Anything’ Happen in an Open System? This is based on a 2005 online article in the American Spectator. The origin and development of life seem to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a clear and spectacular way; however, such arguments are routinely dismissed by saying that the second law does not apply to open systems, such as the Earth. The author counters this idea with the tautology that “if an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.” In an appendix to a 2005 John Wiley mathematics text, reproduced in this chapter, the author looks at the usual equations for the second law as it applies to heat conduction and diffusion, and shows that they actually confirm this common sense interpretation, rather than the idea that anything can happen in an open system. The conclusion: “If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth’s atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here. But if all we see entering is radiation and meteorite fragments, it seems clear that what is entering through the boundary cannot explain the increase in order observed here.” This is a typical confusion of human notions of disorder with thermodynamic entropy. Entropy is decreased in a pond when it cools and turns to ice. Indeed, a like amount of ice has less entropy than a human brain. -------------- You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

fnxtr Posts: 3504 Joined: June 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,22:24    Quote (Zachriel @ Feb. 14 2010,19:33)   Quote Granville Sewell: I have posted a summary of the contents of each chapter here.   Quote Can ‘Anything’ Happen in an Open System? This is based on a 2005 online article in the American Spectator. The origin and development of life seem to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a clear and spectacular way; however, such arguments are routinely dismissed by saying that the second law does not apply to open systems, such as the Earth. The author counters this idea with the tautology that “if an increase in order is extremely improbable when a system is closed, it is still extremely improbable when the system is open, unless something is entering which makes it not extremely improbable.” In an appendix to a 2005 John Wiley mathematics text, reproduced in this chapter, the author looks at the usual equations for the second law as it applies to heat conduction and diffusion, and shows that they actually confirm this common sense interpretation, rather than the idea that anything can happen in an open system. The conclusion: “If we found evidence that DNA, auto parts, computer chips, and books entered through the Earth’s atmosphere at some time in the past, then perhaps the appearance of humans, cars, computers, and encyclopedias on a previously barren planet could be explained without postulating a violation of the second law here. But if all we see entering is radiation and meteorite fragments, it seems clear that what is entering through the boundary cannot explain the increase in order observed here.” Pwned Money shot: "To spell it out, there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution. The degree by which earth's entropy is reduced by the action of evolutionary processes is miniscule relative to the amount that the entropy of the cosmic microwave background is increased." -------------- "[A] book said there were 5 trillion witnesses. Who am I supposed to believe, 5 trillion witnesses or you? That shit's, like, ironclad. " -- stevestory "Wow, you must be retarded. I said that CO2 does not trap heat. If it did then it would not cool down at night."  Joe G

Henry J Posts: 5786 Joined: Mar. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Feb. 14 2010,22:54    Quote Money shot: "To spell it out, there's about a trillion times more entropy flux available than is required for evolution. The degree by which earth's entropy is reduced by the action of evolutionary processes is miniscule relative to the amount that the entropy of the cosmic microwave background is increased." Yeah, evolution is a side effect of reproduction and growth, which use far more entropy change than does evolution. So the 2nd law can't stop evolution without stopping those other two things, which are both observed on a daily basis. Henry

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