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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 4, Fostering a Greater Understanding of IDC< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
REC



Posts: 638
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2013,21:36   

Can someone post the entirety of both posts to TSZ and/or UD?

The link for the first post:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y229212

Second post:
http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y229227

I think it is quite clear I offered 2 opinions on status of the the quote and never accused Barry of being the fabricator (quite the opposite!). When I was offered an alternate citation from another source for the correct page from a AtBC poster, I did locate the quote for Barry, and set the record straight.

Edit: I looked at TSZ. Both posts are there in their entirety. Barry has taken 2 lines from significant posts to set up a false accusation against me. I call on him to post the entire comments, and let his readers judge for themselves.

Edited by REC on Dec. 12 2013,22:07

  
Occam's Aftershave



Posts: 2604
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2013,21:49   

Quote (REC @ Dec. 12 2013,21:36)
Can someone post the entirety of both posts to TSZ and/or UD?

The link for the first post:

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y229212

Second post:
http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y229227

I think it is quite clear I offered 2 opinions on status of the the quote, never accused Barry of being the fabricator (quite the opposite!), located the quote for him, and set the record straight.

I wouldn't worry about Bully. He has no case and he knows it. The arrogant fathead is just bellowing and blustering for effect.

--------------
"Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11110
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2013,23:35   

Barry, stop clutching your pearls. You're embarrassing yourself. Be honest, and check your sources next time.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,03:09   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Dec. 13 2013,01:30)

 
Quote
Are there Any Depths to Which the Darwin Lobby Will not Sink?
December 12, 2013 Posted by Barry Arrington under Intelligent Design

Dear readers, everywhere I post I do so under my real name.


Yep, me too.

--------------
SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

  
Soapy Sam



Posts: 659
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,03:21   

Quote (Ptaylor @ Dec. 13 2013,01:30)

Quote
Are there Any Depths to Which the Darwin Lobby Will not Sink?Is There Anything I Can't Make a Meal Out Of If I Try Hard Enough?
December 12, 2013 Posted by Barry Arrington under Intelligent Design
1 Comment

  • [...]

    Does anyone know who REC is?


  • He's got a short memory.

    --------------
    SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

    BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

      
    Kattarina98



    Posts: 1266
    Joined: Sep. 2009

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,05:11   

    You'd think that Barry would direct his fury against the creationist website he picked his doctored quotes from, but no ...



    --------------
    Barry Arrington is a bitch.

      
    Soapy Sam



    Posts: 659
    Joined: Jan. 2012

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,06:13   

    Mapou/Savain retains his sense of perspective.

    Heh heh
     
    Quote
    How can a scientific theory suffer such a punishing blow and still manage to survive? Its obvious, at least to me, that there are powerful criminal factions within the government and the academic world who are supporting it.


    Of course. The government (there's only one) is run by atheists.

    --------------
    SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

    BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

      
    REC



    Posts: 638
    Joined: Sep. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,08:48   

    One more tidbit:

    Barry's citation is:


    Quote
    Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall, The Myths of Human Evolution (New York: Columbia University Press, 1982), 45-46.


    I have the 1982 edition. I checked that. I also don't see evidence of a second English language edition.

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,10:12   

    I found this:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi....bstract

    "American Anthropologist
    Volume 86, Issue 1, pages 170172, March 1984"

    Obviously not a full book.

    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    midwifetoad



    Posts: 3992
    Joined: Mar. 2008

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,10:19   

    Quote
    Edit: I looked at TSZ. Both posts are there in their entirety. Barry has taken 2 lines from significant posts to set up a false accusation against me. I call on him to post the entire comments, and let his readers judge for themselves.



    Wonderful.

    To defend himself against a charge of quote mining, he mines a quote and lies about its meaning.

    Moron.

    --------------
    Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,10:23   

    Google books claims there's a 1984 version:

    http://books.google.com/books....gAACAAJ

    Quote
    Niles Eldredge, Ian Tattersall
    Columbia University Press, Feb 1, 1984 - Science - 195 pages


    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    Bob O'H



    Posts: 2263
    Joined: Oct. 2005

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,10:50   

    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2013,10:12)
    I found this:

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi........bstract

    "American Anthropologist
    Volume 86, Issue 1, pages 170172, March 1984"

    Obviously not a full book.

    That looks like a book review.

    --------------
    It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

       
    Occam's Aftershave



    Posts: 2604
    Joined: Feb. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,10:50   

    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2013,10:23)
    Google books claims there's a 1984 version:

    http://books.google.com/books......gAACAAJ

     
    Quote
    Niles Eldredge, Ian Tattersall
    Columbia University Press, Feb 1, 1984 - Science - 195 pages

    Looks like the hardcover was released in Oct. 1982, the paperback in Feb.1984 but they are the same contents i.e. only one edition.

    Amazon link to both

    --------------
    "Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

      
    Occam's Aftershave



    Posts: 2604
    Joined: Feb. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,11:01   

    Another interesting tidbit. The earliest mis-citation of the quote as being on p. 45-46 instead on the correct p.48 is from the IDiot's own Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Club , quotation page

    The IDEA Club Fossil Record Quote Collection

    Looks like it dates to 2001. I wonder if that's the source Bully is too embarrassed to admit?

    --------------
    "Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

      
    REC



    Posts: 638
    Joined: Sep. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,11:31   

    Well, I'm going to be busy for the remainder of the day and weekend.

    I don't really have additional thoughts than the ones I expressed here:

    http://theskepticalzone.com/wp....t-35267

    ...except to say this is another example why context matters. Here, it was a discussion with a lot of nuance, context, and most importantly an either/or statement, one of which turned out, through our efforts, to be true.

      
    Soapy Sam



    Posts: 659
    Joined: Jan. 2012

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,13:41   

    It's an interesting circle of science, the legal world and even the good old Rules of Reason. Even though he WASN'T accused of fabrication, rendering the whole case redundant, would it be possible for a statement of the type "Barry fabricated the quote*

    *or he didn't"

    to be libellous? It certainly can't be proven false, a key factor.

    --------------
    SoapySam is a pathetic asswiper. Joe G

    BTW, when you make little jabs like “I thought basic logic was one thing UDers could handle,” you come off looking especially silly when you turn out to be wrong. - Barry Arrington

      
    Occam's Aftershave



    Posts: 2604
    Joined: Feb. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,14:37   

    To recap:

    1. Bully Arrington posts a quote-mined Eldredge quote about punk eek to support BA's claim of "no transitional fossils". BA has never read Eldredge but merely C&Ps the quote from a Creationist website and unknowingly includes an incorrect citation.

    2. REC looks up the citation BA provided, sees the quote isn't there. REC concludes either the quote was fabricated or it is elsewhere in the book. Nothing is said by anyone anywhere about BA fabricating the quote.

    3. BA has a shit fit, claims he was libeled by an accusation that BA fabricated a quote, demands removal of the post and makes veiled threats of legal action.

    4. BA creates thread at UD repeating BA's lies about the episode. Several comments are posted pointing out that BA misrepresented what actually happened.

    5. Brainless UD sycophants all look the other way, continue to scream about those evil dishonest Darwinists.

    See Bully, there's a damn good reason people view you as such a horse's ass.

    --------------
    "Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

      
    didymos



    Posts: 1828
    Joined: Mar. 2008

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,15:32   

    Alright, which one of you is socking as Bot?

    Quote
    It may be considered ill manners to point at the elephant in the room naturalists seem to be wrong about everything every time.
    What I really would like to know is: when was the last time that a naturalist actually won an argument at this forum?


    Link

    --------------
    I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
    Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

      
    midwifetoad



    Posts: 3992
    Joined: Mar. 2008

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,15:37   

    Quote (didymos @ Dec. 13 2013,15:32)
    Alright, which one of you is socking as Bot?

    Quote
    It may be considered ill manners to point at the elephant in the room naturalists seem to be wrong about everything every time.
    What I really would like to know is: when was the last time that a naturalist actually won an argument at this forum?


    Link

    Let me guess. When was the last time anyone was banned or put in moderation?

    --------------
    Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,16:27   

    Epic post by Nick Matzke:


    Quote
    NickMatzke_UDDecember 13, 2013 at 4:14 pm
    Hmm. So far, it looks like:

    1. Barry copied-and-pasted a quote from some creationist website, without looking up the original reference.

    2. There is only one English edition of this book, and the creationist websites reference was wrong, and Barry didnt check.

    3. The quote doesnt mean what Barry and the other IDists/creationists want it to mean. Eldredge was talking about the rarity of fossils smoothly bridging very small species-to-species transitions, but people at UD take it to mean that the fossil record completely fails to support Darwinian evolution.

    They ignore:

    - fact that the quote in question comes from a chapter and section of the book specifically on fossil *species*

    - the very same book contains many other passages confirming that many other aspects of the fossil record and found transitional fossils support evolution

    - the fact that the author, Eldredge, is clearly on record in print confirming that many transitional fossils have been found, and that these confirm evolution

    4. The creationists/IDists have not even tried to make substantive points contradicting any of the above, instead they (a) try to switch topics, (b) pound the table and repeat the use of the quote while refusing to consider its context, or © insult, threaten, and/or ban the evolutionists for daring to raise the above objections, which are actually just matters of basic scholarship.

    If you ever want to know why creationists are unpopular in academia, look no farther than this episode! These sorts of shenanigans would get a student graded down in any subject. They are appealing only to demagogues.

    Why cant you guys just follow the evidence where it leads about what this quote means, and what Barry inappropriately did with it?


    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    REC



    Posts: 638
    Joined: Sep. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,16:48   

    Seems like this sums it up. The quote is mined from a section on 'species'. Nothing new here....

    Quote
    Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationistswhether through design or stupidity, I do not knowas admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.


    Gould, 1981-and "We" is Eldredge and Gould, of course

    Edited for a simpler quote from a publicly available source:

    http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library....ry.html

    Ya know, in case UDers decide read for a change.

    Edited by REC on Dec. 13 2013,17:03

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,17:11   

    Box has pulled up another quotemine referenced in the quote mine project:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs....t3.html

    Quote #3.13

    Intellectual self-harmers.

    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    Occam's Aftershave



    Posts: 2604
    Joined: Feb. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,17:26   

    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2013,17:11)
    Box has pulled up another quotemine referenced in the quote mine project:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs.......t3.html

    Quote #3.13

    Intellectual self-harmers.

    It's just amazing, innit? Dr. Matzke explains in excruciating detail just how repugnant the practice of quote-mining is to the scientific community and how it will immediately kill your credibility there as a scholar so what does Box do? Comes back with yet another quote-mined quote.

    These IDiots just don't get it. They don't want to get it.

    Remember when AFDave Hawkins was pushing this Creationist big book of mined quotes?



    The IDiots must have been on the distribution list too.

    --------------
    "Science is what got us to the humble place we’re at, and what hard-won progress we might realize comes from science, with ID completely flaccid, religious apologetics bitching from the sidelines." - Eigenstate at UD

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,17:52   

    Barry's back, and up to his usual tricks. Is that the complete quote with all context he offers to Nick?

    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    didymos



    Posts: 1828
    Joined: Mar. 2008

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,19:37   

    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2013,15:11)
    Box has pulled up another quotemine referenced in the quote mine project:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs.......t3.html

    Quote #3.13

    Intellectual self-harmers.

    I'm guessing "Box" is short for "Box of Rocks".

    --------------
    I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
    Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

      
    stevestory



    Posts: 10887
    Joined: Oct. 2005

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,20:25   

    or hammers.

       
    Woodbine



    Posts: 1210
    Joined: June 2007

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,20:56   

    Been having a quick skim through some of Mapou's bible-based science at his website. Based upon every science fiction trope imaginable his interpretation of certain key passages we can expect the following....
    Quote
    Free Energy(natch)

    Current energy production (power plants), storage (batteries and fuel cells) and distribution technologies (power grid) will be quickly superseded. Every home will be energy self-sufficient and will have its own compact, self-contained power generation unit. An ecological and economic windfall will follow. Developing nations will no longer depend on imported oil or have to use charcoal and wood for fuel. This will lead to the regeneration of denuded tropical forests. Air pollution and greenhouse gases will be a thing of the past. Hydroelectric dams will be dismantled and the flooded fields will be reclaimed for agriculture or wildlife sanctuaries. Since oil prices will plummet, oil-producing nations will no longer be able to generate income from their stockpile of oil. This will create a dangerous shift in the balance of economic power around the world which will likely lead to catastrophic wars. Some of these nations will see no way out but to invest their fast dwindling wealth into acquiring military power based on the new technology.

    Quote
    Fast Transportation

    All current ground, sea, air and space transportation systems will become obsolete. This means there will no longer be a need for things like combustion engines, wheels, tires, rockets, railroads, transmissions, brakes, propellers, sails, airports, paved roads, highways, bridges, traffic signals, etc... As a result, transportation related industries will have to undergo a severe transformation in order to adjust to the new reality. Future vehicles will go almost anywhere with no visible means of propulsion and they will make no sound as they move. They will be able to do so at extremely high speeds. Even right angle turns will be negotiated at high speeds. Inertial effects will not be felt because every atom or particle that comprises a vehicle and its cargo will undergo equal acceleration. This means that moving vehicles will be able to come to a full stop within a fraction of a second without incurring any damage. City dwellers will use small personal devices (flying chairs?) to float around effortlessly. Normal walking will no longer be a necessity.

    Quote
    Floating Cities(!)

    Many buildings and even entire cities will float in midair and, in the event of inclement weather, will rise out of harm's way. Many people will choose not to live in cities at all, preferring instead a nomadic lifestyle. Indeed, why live in a fixed apartment if the entire apartment can move almost anywhere. Many inhabited outposts will be built in outer space and on off-world bodies such as the moon, Mars or Jupiter's moons. All heavy industries will be moved off the surface of earth to minimize pollution and accidents. Most of the accessible planetary bodies in the solar system, including asteroids, will be mined for minerals. International disputes will flare up with regard to the administration, ownership and mining rights of space resources.

    Sounds relatively idyllic, no? But wait....
    Quote
    Big Brother

    Given the potential of the new technology for abuse, governments will find it necessary to impose strict control over its use. All vehicles intended for public transportation will have to be either self-operating or severely restricted so as to prevent accidents and unauthorized uses. Electronic-enabled, invisible highways will have to be installed in order to automatically guide vehicular traffic along approved routes. However, the simplicity of the new technology means that almost anybody will be able to conduct experiments and build powerful and dangerous machines in their own homes or backyards. Governments will be forced to enact stringent new laws against private experiments and impose severe penalties for unauthorized use. Somehow, I doubt that any regulation will stop people from tinkering with gadgets on their own. Worse, there are those who will immediately start building automated delivery systems for weapons of mass destruction since distance and international borders will no longer be a deterrent. Authorities will have to rely heavily on widespread surveillance technologies to maintain security.

    Quote
    Wars and Rumors of Wars

    The nations of the world will waste no time seeing the military implications of the new technology. The powers that be will use the new science to develop extremely powerful offensive weapons and sophisticated countermeasures for their own protection. Many weak and poor nations will become strong and rich. Countries like the US, Russia, Brazil, India, Japan and China will become much more powerful than they already are both economically and militarily. The more powerful nations will find themselves under tremendous pressure to preemptively strike their weaker enemies before the latter can have time to build up their military arsenal.


    Mapou concludes on a hopeful note. While it might get a bit scary in the future chances are someone will have our back. Can you guess who?
    Quote
    Conclusion

    Brave New World


    We are about to enter an age that is both dangerous and promising. The short term outlook is very bleak indeed. Global disaster looms menacingly on the horizon. Will we survive? Will we acknowledge the sacred source of the new science and change our ways? One thing is certain, whatever happens will not happen overnight but it will happen very fast. I hope I am wrong but my understanding of Biblical prophecy leads me to think that, at the last minute, the world will be rescued from its collective madness and the brink of disaster but not before going through a brief period of intense tribulation. After that, utopia.


    All Science So Far

      
    Richardthughes



    Posts: 11110
    Joined: Jan. 2006

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,22:13   

    Someone call the Waaaaaahmbulance for Barry.

    --------------
    "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
    "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
    "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
    "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
    "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

      
    sparc



    Posts: 1999
    Joined: April 2007

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,23:13   

    Quote (Richardthughes @ Dec. 13 2013,16:27)
    Epic post by Nick Matzke:


    Quote
    NickMatzke_UDDecember 13, 2013 at 4:14 pm
    Hmm. So far, it looks like:

    1. Barry copied-and-pasted a quote from some creationist website, without looking up the original reference.

    2. There is only one English edition of this book, and the creationist websites reference was wrong, and Barry didnt check.

    3. The quote doesnt mean what Barry and the other IDists/creationists want it to mean. Eldredge was talking about the rarity of fossils smoothly bridging very small species-to-species transitions, but people at UD take it to mean that the fossil record completely fails to support Darwinian evolution.

    They ignore:

    - fact that the quote in question comes from a chapter and section of the book specifically on fossil *species*

    - the very same book contains many other passages confirming that many other aspects of the fossil record and found transitional fossils support evolution

    - the fact that the author, Eldredge, is clearly on record in print confirming that many transitional fossils have been found, and that these confirm evolution

    4. The creationists/IDists have not even tried to make substantive points contradicting any of the above, instead they (a) try to switch topics, (b) pound the table and repeat the use of the quote while refusing to consider its context, or insult, threaten, and/or ban the evolutionists for daring to raise the above objections, which are actually just matters of basic scholarship.

    If you ever want to know why creationists are unpopular in academia, look no farther than this episode! These sorts of shenanigans would get a student graded down in any subject. They are appealing only to demagogues.

    Why cant you guys just follow the evidence where it leads about what this quote means, and what Barry inappropriately did with it?

    I thought Barry banninated Nick recently.

    --------------
    "[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

    - William Dembski -

       
    Henry J



    Posts: 5012
    Joined: Mar. 2005

    (Permalink) Posted: Dec. 13 2013,23:20   

    So does cold fusion figure somewhere in that list of new technologies?

    Henry

      
      10669 replies since Aug. 31 2011,21:06 < Next Oldest | Next Newest >  

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