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Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:44   

Maybe the coloration is caused by chemical(s) that serve some other purpose for the organism? In that case the color could be merely a side-effect.

Henry

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:52   

could be.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 26 2007,15:58   

Quote
It seems that the paper quoted by Martin is almost the only one dealing the the evolution of toxicity in mushrooms. Unfortunately, Am. Nat. is one of the few journals (of ecology) I can't access.


One, I suggest moving any real discussion to the thread I just made where the subject would be the actual science, instead of watching Vmartin make an ass of himself.

Two, yeah, access IS a problem.  perhaps we can work that issue out in the other thread?

however, if the paper Vmartin is alluding to is the one I just linked to in the new thread, I wonder why it is that he completely ignored the findings of the paper wrt to determining if signalling is actually happening in fungi, in favor of saying that the color of fungi somehow "disproves the darwinian narrative".

talk about missing the forest for the trees.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,12:18   

Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

 
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,12:19   

Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,12:18)
Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

 
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

Oh christ, hear we go again....

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,12:28   

Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,12:18)
Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

   
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

A hint, V: use fewer quotation marks.

I trust you're ready to answer our questions now, Slugger?

Let's start: do you agree with Davison on common descent?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Ichthyic



Posts: 3325
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:07   

Quote

Oh christ, hear we go again....


only if you want to.

--------------
"And the sea will grant each man new hope..."

-CC

  
IanBrown_101



Posts: 927
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:09   

Quote (Ichthyic @ June 27 2007,13:07)
Quote

Oh christ, hear we go again....


only if you want to.

I'M not touching it, but SOMEONE will. They always do.

--------------
I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest.

You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK

Roddenberry is my God.

   
Henry J



Posts: 5786
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,13:42   

Not even with a ten foot flagellum? ;)

  
Rev. BigDumbChimp



Posts: 185
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,14:12   

Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,12:18)
Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

   
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

Dismal Situation in what way? The theory of Evolution is the accepted explanation for the fact of evolution. It is one of the most well supported theories in science whether you or JAD choose to accept it. I see nothing dismal about that. It's you hand waving types on the sidelines who's current situation is dismal. John IS a joke. He's a joke here, a joke among those actually doing the science and a joke every time he writes another 400 comment single post blog. When you find the strength to remove your proboscis from JAD's nether regions you feel the need to defend his untenable position by failing to address questions posed to you and readjusting the x,y coordinates of those posts generally found on the short sides of a football field.


I stick by my assessment.

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 27 2007,14:16   

Martin, you're becoming boring.

This thread is about front-loading, so tell us how your hypothesis explains the coloration of mushrooms.
And also, tell us what you think about common descent. From one of your latests post :
Quote
go observe your colorful fish-ancestors in aquarium
... it seems like you don't believe we share a common ancestors with fish. Is that your position?

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2007,14:33   

Well?

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 11178
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 28 2007,14:52   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 27 2007,12:28)
Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,12:18)
Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

   
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

A hint, V: use fewer quotation marks.

I trust you're ready to answer our questions now, Slugger?

Let's start: do you agree with Davison on common descent?

KNOW, "ARDEN". USE MORE "QUOTATION MARKS" IF YOU "WANT" TO MAKE AN "INTERSTING" "POINT".

http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/

:angry:

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2007,11:02   

Because Wesley R. Elsberry wrote:

 
Quote

The discussion of technical details, should any be found relevant, in Davison's formal work is OK. So if VMartin or anyone else wants to quote from a peer-reviewed publication of Davison's, there is no issue there.


we may discuss a question that provocateur Chatfield asked repeatedly to obscure John and my view.

The question on me was if I share John's opinion on common descent. I would like to say that John's opinion is different as people here presume. If there is no problem I would quote his thoughts on common descent here. But it was not published in "formal work". But it was so interesting that I quoted it in One blog a day about doctor Meyers Pharyngula.


Of course anybody can review John Davison's interesting work Semimeiosis as an evolutionary mechanism published in Journal Of Theoretical Biology in 1984. I reccomend it becauese it can elucidate the question of common descent with scientific arguments.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2007,11:17   

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 28 2007,14:52)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 27 2007,12:28)
 
Quote (VMartin @ June 27 2007,12:18)
Another "psychologist"  with very nice nick "Rev. BigDumbChimp":

       
Quote

JAD is a Joke and the fact that you're his lapdog makes you one as well. He's growing increasingly insane and ...well... the fact you can't help but wag your tail in his shadow says alot.


I would like to congratulate you for another deep "psychological" insight (darwinists are not only brilliant scientists but also prominent linguists and psychologists as we see here) but I am afraid you are only projecting your own dismal situation to John and me. But it is O.K. - darwinists project humans relation also to animal kingdom seeing everywhere "struggle for life", "evolution in action" and "mimicry".

A hint, V: use fewer quotation marks.

I trust you're ready to answer our questions now, Slugger?

Let's start: do you agree with Davison on common descent?

KNOW, "ARDEN". USE MORE "QUOTATION MARKS" IF YOU "WANT" TO MAKE AN "INTERSTING" "POINT".

http://quotation-marks.blogspot.com/

:angry:

"HOMO."

":angry:"

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: June 29 2007,11:20   

Quote (VMartin @ June 29 2007,16:02)
Of course anybody can review John Davison's interesting work Semimeiosis as an evolutionary mechanism published in Journal Of Theoretical Biology in 1984. I reccomend it becauese it can elucidate the question of common descent with scientific arguments.

Not unless you have a link for it they can't.

EDIT: I mean a link to the paper, not just the abstract.

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2007,14:50   

Chris Hyland

Quote

EDIT: I mean a link to the paper, not just the abstract.


Semi-Meiosis as an evolutionary mechanism is available here:

http://hkusua.hku.hk/~cdbeling/Semi-Meiosis.pdf

I would say that facts mentioned there by John Davison are very  uncomfortable for modern neodarwinism.
The origin of the definitive germ cells is really baffling and would support his conclusion:

Quote

Since the sources and modes of invasion (of germinal cells) are not homologous from group to group, the continuity of the germ plasm is a myth.
.
.
.
... contemporary reproductive cell lineages cannot be ancestral but have independently replaced the original (semi-meiotic) lineage and that the latter is no longer extant.      


--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 01 2007,17:12   

I read the paper. It's rather well written (ie, easily understandable for a person like me, whose English is not the first language) and his observations regarding the origin of germ cells are interesting. I guess that's why he got published in this journal, not in rivista di biologia.

However, I certainly disagree with his view that, implicit to Darwin, "sexual reproduction is the mechanism producing the differences that natural selection acts upon". Actually, Darwin's model of natural selection is mostly independent of sexual reproduction, unless in the cases of sexual selection and avoidance of inbreeding, which provide selecting pressures. Of course, he never considers recombination, since the field of genetics didn't exist. In the end, Darwin never dealt with actual speciation. However, it is of common knowledge that recombination can accelerate the evolution of a lineage, because independent mutations can be combined in the same genomes.
As JAD notes, It's clear that sexual reproduction uses different mechanisms in distantly related vertebrates, however, it doesn't necessary imply that sexual reproduction appeared independently from a pre-sexual ancestor. One could easily imagine that a lineage can evolve different sexual mechanisms (sexual chromosomes, environmental determinism) without reverting to asexuality between those. For instance, opisthoconta (animals and fungi) share common structures in their spermatozoids, and I'm not even considering these homologies within vertebrates. So it seems that sexual reproduction has a single origin in this phylum. This would constitute a powerful evidence against JAD's hypothesis that semi-meiosis was common in vertebrates and underlay most of their macro-evolutionary history. In the end, his semi-meiosis hypothesis is interesting, however this mechanism may not have been widespread in eukaryotes, if it ever existed.
By the way, it’s clear to me that JAD supports common descent, at least between vertebrates. He relies on this principle to posit semi-meiosis as a pre-sexual state, the root of different mechanisms of sexual reproduction between different taxa.

Genomic rearrangements in the evolution of vertebrates and plants are well know, so are their underlying physiological mechanisms. But it is also well known that adaptation and speciation doesn't need such rearrangements, most of the time then don’t involve them. I would conclude that semi-meiosis may be an evolutionary mechanism to consider, however it's not less "Darwinian" than, say, allopolyploidy, stasipatric speciation, etc. And I certainly don’t see what it has to do with intelligent design (I  know JAD doesn’t claim that in the paper)
And contrarily to JAD's words, his hypothesis doesn’t sounds more testable that "NeoDarwinism" is, in his own definition of testability: being able to observe a new genus appear.

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 02 2007,15:32   

It is not easy for me to defend John Davison's ideas in more details especially this one. He studied the problem very carefully and whoever wants discuss with him can do it at Brainstorm. It would be more proper that my copy/paste from his works.

Preliminary I restrict myself to constatation that I agree with Davison's claims that evolution is over, that nomogenesis or orthogenesis played in evolution the main role, that Natural selection is conservative force having no role in creative evolution and that some kind of saltationism is needed to explain evolution. There might have been many independent creations.  Information for further evolution was pre-programmed, or frontloaded.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 02 2007,17:26   

Quote (VMartin @ July 02 2007,15:32)
It is not easy for me to defend John Davison's ideas

It's not easy for John, either.

Of course, it's not easy for the rest of the world to figure out what the hell he's gibbering about, either.  (shrug)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 02 2007,17:53   

Quote
Information for further evolution was pre-programmed, or frontloaded.


By whom?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 02 2007,17:58   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 02 2007,17:53)
Quote
Information for further evolution was pre-programmed, or frontloaded.


By whom?

And why did it stop?

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
jeannot



Posts: 1201
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,00:55   

According to JAD, it stopped once humans appeared. He's not very clear about it, but he seems to think that with humans, The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore.

  
Darth Robo



Posts: 148
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,09:56   

"The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore."

Then why are there still VMartin's and JAD's?

???

--------------
"Commentary: How would you like to be the wholly-owned servant to an organic meatbag? It's demeaning! If, uh, you weren't one yourself, I mean..."

  
Occam's Toothbrush



Posts: 555
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,10:28   

Quote (jeannot @ July 03 2007,00:55)
According to JAD, it stopped once humans appeared. He's not very clear about it, but he seems to think that with humans, The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore.

That makes sense when you look at the sheer sublime ideals represented by our 32 teeth packed into enough jaw space for 28, and a vestigial organ (appendix) that becomes infected and kills 400 people a year in the US alone.  I really don't see how we could be any better.

--------------
"Molecular stuff seems to me not to be biology as much as it is a more atomic element of life" --Creo nut Robert Byers
------
"You need your arrogant ass kicked, and I would LOVE to be the guy who does it. Where do you live?" --Anger Management Problem Concern Troll "Kris"

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,10:38   

Quote (jeannot @ July 03 2007,00:55)
According to JAD, it stopped once humans appeared. He's not very clear about it, but he seems to think that with humans, The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore.

I assume that's when God carked, according to Nosivad. I'd ask VMartin, but he won't answer.

It takes a certain kind of unique egomania to base a whole scientific theory on the idea that humans have 'reached perfection'.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,14:37   

Quote

"The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore."

Then why are there still VMartin's and JAD's?


I am not perfect. But haughty darwinists at AtBC reach the point of perfection (in use of abuses instead of  arguments you know).

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,14:40   

Quote (VMartin @ July 03 2007,14:37)
 
Quote

"The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore."

Then why are there still VMartin's and JAD's?


I am not perfect. But haughty darwinists

*GULP*

 
Quote
at AtBC reach the point of perfection (in use of abuses instead of  arguments you know).


Please, continue.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
"Rev Dr" Lenny Flank



Posts: 2560
Joined: Feb. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 03 2007,17:17   

Quote (VMartin @ July 03 2007,14:37)
Quote

"The Designer reach perfection so there's nothing to be front-loaded anymore."

Then why are there still VMartin's and JAD's?


I am not perfect. But haughty darwinists at AtBC reach the point of perfection (in use of abuses instead of  arguments you know).

(sniffle)  (sob)  Boo hoo hoo.

Sure sucks to be you, doesn't it.

(yawn)

--------------
Editor, Red and Black Publishers
www.RedandBlackPublishers.com

  
VMartin



Posts: 525
Joined: Nov. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 04 2007,00:14   

Quote

(sniffle)  (sob)  Boo hoo hoo.


First try to fart. If it doesn't help read Darwin's Origin of species. It will help you no doubt.

--------------
I could not answer, but should maintain my ground.-
Charles Darwin

  
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