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Lou FCD



Posts: 5415
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,11:30   

I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

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Peter Henderson



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Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,11:54   

In the broader view, I just hope this doesn't do any harm to the pro science/anti creationist movement in general.

Apart from the discotute, I haven't read anything on the YEC blogs yet, but it's bound to turn up sooner or later.

  
Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,12:03   

This has strong echoes of the Lord McAlpine affair in the UK a while back:

http://www.legalweek.com/legal-w....bel-law

  
RDK



Posts: 229
Joined: Aug. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,15:04   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 17 2013,17:50)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 17 2013,21:41)
† † †  
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 17 2013,10:15)
† † † †
Quote (RDK @ Aug. 17 2013,15:55)
† † † †  
Quote
How many users on reddit? We're not talking about a handful of people.


The userbase of Reddit is not indicative of anything but the shitty userbase of Reddit.

What does Reddit have to do with this conversation? †I'm truly arguing in good faith.

What is the biggest subreddit? How many subscribers?

How many †subscribers to r/skeptic?

I already mentioned, in the post that got lost, the 15 year old girl who posted †a picture of herself with Demon Haunted World. The reaction to her was not acceptable to many atheists. There is the divide. It exists because significant numbers of atheists and skeptics are publicly homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic, and/or rape-endorsing. That is not an exhaustive list, but it will do for starters.

That's one of the things that I am skeptical of. †The automatic assumption that anyone who posts is an atheist and/or skeptic. †That assumes that no one who is not one of those things would read or post on the forum/reddit/thread/YouTube channel/etc without being one of those things.


Okay, let's pretend I am not familiar with those subreddits, and go so far as to say maybe only 10% of commenters on r/atheism are atheists.

We would still then be talking about probably the largest atheist venue on the internet. A venue with a culture of rape and homophobic jokes.

Unless you have a reason for thinking that those 10%, atheist redditors all, are disgusted by the culture at r/atheism (and generally throughout reddit), and are unlikely to participate in sexism, homophobia, and the like, your immaculate skepticism gives birth to the same conclusion as the less meticulous of us have already made: A significant number of atheists on the internet embrace minority-bashing and misogyny.


† † †  
Quote
I have seen no evidence that the problem is worse than in society


It probably isn't. What is your point?

Reddit is 4chan-lite. †Anyone who believes that an online community with a notorious penchant for trolling and fuckery is representative of the skeptic community at large is a fool.

Does internet anonymity allow people to post purposefully mean-spirited content for shock value with little to no consequences? †Yes. †Does that necessarily mean the people who post these things have and act on these beliefs away from their keyboard? †I would think not.

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Peter Henderson



Posts: 298
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,16:37   

Quote
I have seen people's careers destroyed because of claims like this.


Indeed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news....al.html

  
MichaelJ



Posts: 462
Joined: June 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 18 2013,17:13   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,00:14)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 18 2013,04:19)
Quote
I know too much about people. †You see, they lie.


Then you know the stats on false reports of crimes †and specifically rape. Excellent. This is a link.

^ on rape and lying.

I think that the issue is simple. Whether you like or dislike Myers, he repeated hearsay on a very serious crime where the accused has no way to clear their name. That is and should be illegal.

  
The whole truth



Posts: 1554
Joined: Jan. 2012

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,05:26   

Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

And then there are the women who accuse a guy or guys of rape or other sex related crimes even though the guy(s) never raped or even touched the woman. †

Yeah, rape sucks, but so do false, life ruining accusations/convictions.

Edited by The whole truth on Aug. 19 2013,03:29

--------------
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Jesus in Matthew 10:34

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. -Jesus in Luke 19:27

   
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,09:31   

Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,11:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

How many men?

Is "assault after the fact" a huge problem?

Being persecuted for questioning evolution is a huge problem for all those people who are hounded and bullied out of academia just because they dare to challenge the orthodoxy.

Is bullying by evolutionists a huge problem?

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,09:49   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Febble



Posts: 310
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,09:55   

Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,05:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

And then there are the women who accuse a guy or guys of rape or other sex related crimes even though the guy(s) never raped or even touched the woman. †

Yeah, rape sucks, but so do false, life ruining accusations/convictions.

There's "huge" as in "a huge problem for the victim", then there's "huge" as in "a huge number of victims".

I agree that a false accusation of rape can be as damaging to the victim as rape.

The question is which happens more often.

And therefore which is more likely in a contested case.

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,11:11   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:31)
Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,11:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

How many men?

Is "assault after the fact" a huge problem?

Being persecuted for questioning evolution is a huge problem for all those people who are hounded and bullied out of academia just because they dare to challenge the orthodoxy.

Is bullying by evolutionists a huge problem?

If it happens once, then it has to be investigated and no presumption of innocence or guilt can be made until after the investigation is complete.

I honestly don't understand what's going on here.

Half the people seem to be "we'd like evidence, an instigation, if it's enough to publicly accuse, then go to the police"

The other half is presuming guilt and who cares if it destroys his career with unfounded accusations, we're preventing a rapist from getting someone else.

No, they aren't.  If someone is a serial rapist, then the only thing that will protect people is putting that person behinds bars.  Making a blog post will not change anything.

That's what I don't get.

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

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Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,11:19   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
The other half is presuming guilt and who cares if it destroys his career with unfounded accusations, we're preventing a rapist from getting someone else.

No, they aren't. †If someone is a serial rapist, then the only thing that will protect people is putting that person behinds bars. †Making a blog post will not change anything.

That's what I don't get.

You can't consistently claim that making a blog post will not change anything while also claiming a career may be ruined.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,11:25   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
I honestly don't understand what's going on here.

It may help if you answer the questions in my two posts here.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,11:29   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:31)
Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,11:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

How many men?

Is "assault after the fact" a huge problem?

Being persecuted for questioning evolution is a huge problem for all those people who are hounded and bullied out of academia just because they dare to challenge the orthodoxy.

Is bullying by evolutionists a huge problem?

If it happens once, then it has to be investigated and no presumption of innocence or guilt can be made until after the investigation is complete.

So, the claims made at UD and various other creationist venues should all be investigated? And you will make no presumption as to innocence or guilt until an investigation is concluded? Who should do the investigating?

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,11:33   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Aug. 17 2013,01:10)
Shouldn't she be seeking legal action?


Late to the thread and haven't finished reading it yet so maybe this is already said.

Richard, the principals have claimed to have checked and the state in question has a process that requires a report be filed in order to "activate" the statute of limitations on rape. †The SoL* for rape in that state is unlimited but the report must be filed within four years and that deadline has passed. †Legal action is no longer a possibility.

Additionally, there is also supposed to be a pair of emails in existence where Shermer has apologized for his behavior to the anonymous claimant.

Don't ask me for links; I read this several days ago and don't feel like digging back through all the hack-n-slash in order to find them.

*an unfortunate acronym

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. †Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,12:03   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,11:19)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
The other half is presuming guilt and who cares if it destroys his career with unfounded accusations, we're preventing a rapist from getting someone else.

No, they aren't. †If someone is a serial rapist, then the only thing that will protect people is putting that person behinds bars. †Making a blog post will not change anything.

That's what I don't get.

You can't consistently claim that making a blog post will not change anything while also claiming a career may be ruined.

Yes, because they are two separate concepts.

Do you honestly believe that stopping a serial rapist from going to conventions will stop the serial rapist from any rape?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
OgreMkV



Posts: 3668
Joined: Oct. 2009

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,12:08   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,11:29)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:31)
 
Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,11:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

How many men?

Is "assault after the fact" a huge problem?

Being persecuted for questioning evolution is a huge problem for all those people who are hounded and bullied out of academia just because they dare to challenge the orthodoxy.

Is bullying by evolutionists a huge problem?

If it happens once, then it has to be investigated and no presumption of innocence or guilt can be made until after the investigation is complete.

So, the claims made at UD and various other creationist venues should all be investigated? And you will make no presumption as to innocence or guilt until an investigation is concluded? Who should do the investigating?

Are you really this dense?

The claims that ID proponents have made HAVE been investigated, by experts in the field... and the claims have been shown to be without merit.

As far as this case, I'm sure that, somewhere in the US, is an authority with the ability, knowledge, and experience (not to mention jurisdiction) to investigate the case.

As an aside, you may not be aware, but in the US, the state often has the authority to investigate crimes even if the victim doesn't want to push it.

If there is so much evidence that PZ feels comfortable with his public accusation, then there should be enough information to get the police involved, even if the victim doesn't testify.  Surely, one of the many anonymous people who have had their wine glasses filled will step forward.

Yes, I'm being snarky, because I cannot believe that this conversation is happening.

Is Shermer guilty, yes or no?

--------------
Ignored by those who can't provide evidence for their claims.

http://skepticink.com/smilodo....retreat

   
Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,12:30   

Quote (Peter Henderson @ Aug. 18 2013,17:37)
Quote
I have seen people's careers destroyed because of claims like this.


Indeed:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news.......al.html


That was a very interesting link Peter Henderson because that webpage had a link on it that led to another news story that encapsulated rape-culture perfectly.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news.......ED.html

--------------
"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. †Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Lou FCD



Posts: 5415
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,12:40   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,10:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

My brother knows this guy that totally got anal-probed by aliens.

True story.

--------------
Lou FCD is still in school, so we should only count him as a baby biologist. -carlsonjok -deprecated
I think I might love you. Don't tell Deadman -Wolfhound

Work-friendly photography
NSFW photography

   
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,13:47   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,18:03)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,11:19)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
The other half is presuming guilt and who cares if it destroys his career with unfounded accusations, we're preventing a rapist from getting someone else.

No, they aren't. †If someone is a serial rapist, then the only thing that will protect people is putting that person behinds bars. †Making a blog post will not change anything.

That's what I don't get.

You can't consistently claim that making a blog post will not change anything while also claiming a career may be ruined.

Yes, because they are two separate concepts.

Do you honestly believe that stopping a serial rapist from going to conventions will stop the serial rapist from any rape?

A high status person at a conference is presented with plenty of opportunity, and general validation. I'm sure you understand the concept of opportunistic crime. So with less opportunity, crime is harder to commit, and the risk of getting caught increases.

However what would change most is Michael Shermer would not be at skeptic conferences.

I will point out that I don't expect Shermer to be invited to less conferences. The purpose of the warning is to encourage people to adapt their behaviour around him, not the other way around.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,13:50   

Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 19 2013,18:40)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,10:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

My brother knows this guy that totally got anal-probed by aliens.

True story.

That's a third hand account.

However, if you posted the words of the guy who allegedly was probed as his words that would be on the face of it a first hand account, unless you (not him) fabricated it yourself.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,14:14   

Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,18:08)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,11:29)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 19 2013,17:11)
 
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:31)
Quote (The whole truth @ Aug. 19 2013,11:26)
Driver asked:

"Is "sexual assault after the fact" a huge problem?"

YES. It is a HUGE problem for all the men who are falsely accused and/or prosecuted/convicted for rape or other sex related crimes just because some women decide that they didn't want to fuck a guy AFTER they willingly fucked a guy.

How many men?

Is "assault after the fact" a huge problem?

Being persecuted for questioning evolution is a huge problem for all those people who are hounded and bullied out of academia just because they dare to challenge the orthodoxy.

Is bullying by evolutionists a huge problem?

If it happens once, then it has to be investigated and no presumption of innocence or guilt can be made until after the investigation is complete.

So, the claims made at UD and various other creationist venues should all be investigated? And you will make no presumption as to innocence or guilt until an investigation is concluded? Who should do the investigating?


Are you really this dense?

The claims that ID proponents have made HAVE been investigated, by experts in the field... and the claims have been shown to be without merit.[/quote]

Every creationist claim of "no academic freedom" etc blah blah is investigated? And in each case it is rational to make no assessment as to the truth of the claim before investigation?

The claim that sexual assault "after the fact" is a huge problem has also been investigated by experts.

So, is sexual assault "after the fact" a huge problem?



Quote
If there is so much evidence that PZ feels comfortable with his public accusation, then there should be enough information to get the police involved, even if the victim doesn't testify.


This does not follow, and too much time may have passed.

A tiny percentage of rapes reported to the police end in conviction. A very small percentage of rape claims are shown to be false reports. It would be natural to conclude, unless we have other relevant information, that rarely does a rapist actually get convicted, even when the rape is reported immediately, and the victim is prepared to testify. Getting the police involved in this case now would be a waste of time.



Quote
Is Shermer guilty, yes or no?


I have already answered this question.


Quote
Are you really this dense?


If you operate under the assumption I am highly intelligent, you will read more carefully, and consider what the point of the questions I am asking at that time might be.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,14:18   

Lou Ogre,

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 18 2013,00:04)
Quote (OgreMkV @ Aug. 17 2013,23:47)
Driver, was a woman raped by Shermer? †Yes or no?

I think it is rational to provisionally believe that Shermer not only raped at least one woman, but that he has sexually harassed others.

If I was planning to attend TAM and Skepticon with a woman, I would be damned grateful to PZ for publishing that account.


--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,16:58   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

No, a first hand account is where someone tells you something that happened to them.  Directly.  Second hand is when you tell that story to someone else.  Third, etc go out from there.

All we have are (at least) second hand stories.

Which, looking back is pretty much exactly what you wrote, so why you think they are first hand, I can't tell.  Not even if you take PZ as being completely honest (and if so, I work with a Nigerian prince who wants to talk to you), it's still second hand to us.  That's the point - what it is to us, the outsider.  Not what it might be to anyone else.

Didn't answer my question, though, you would have no problem if I went to a large blog and wrote that someone told me that you raped them?

--------------
"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,17:48   

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

No, a first hand account is where someone tells you something that happened to them. †Directly.

Yes.

Perhaps you are confused by the fact the reporter is anonymous.

This,

"At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I canít give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, Iíve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didnít know how. I hope this protects someone."

is presented as a first-hand account, the content of an email written by the person who experienced the event. Her direct words. Unless PZ Myers forged the account, it is first hand.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,17:54   

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
Didn't answer my question, though, you would have no problem if I went to a large blog and wrote that someone told me that you raped them?

That would be a lie.

If someone you knew and trusted had told you that I raped them, and it were plausible we had met, then you should believe them. If I had raped them, it doesn't really matter what I wanted, does it? Being called a rapist would be a consequence of my actions.

--------------
Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,17:59   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,23:54)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
Didn't answer my question, though, you would have no problem if I went to a large blog and wrote that someone told me that you raped them?

That would be a lie.

If someone you knew and trusted had told you that I raped them, and it were plausible we had met, then you should believe them. If I had raped them, it doesn't really matter what I wanted, does it? Being called a rapist would be a consequence of my actions.

Also, the rape claim regarding Shermer doesn't exist in a bubble. There is more than that account.

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,18:55   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,17:48)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:49)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

No, a first hand account is where someone tells you something that happened to them. †Directly.

Yes.

Perhaps you are confused by the fact the reporter is anonymous.

This,

"At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I canít give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, Iíve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didnít know how. I hope this protects someone."

is presented as a first-hand account, the content of an email written by the person who experienced the event. Her direct words. Unless PZ Myers forged the account, it is first hand.

Perhaps the subtlety is whats confusing you.  PZ has (supposedly, but for the sake of argument we can go with it) a first hand account.  He is giving it to us.  We are getting a second hand account.  It's simple.

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Badger3k



Posts: 861
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,19:00   

Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,17:59)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,23:54)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
Didn't answer my question, though, you would have no problem if I went to a large blog and wrote that someone told me that you raped them?

That would be a lie.

If someone you knew and trusted had told you that I raped them, and it were plausible we had met, then you should believe them. If I had raped them, it doesn't really matter what I wanted, does it? Being called a rapist would be a consequence of my actions.

Also, the rape claim regarding Shermer doesn't exist in a bubble. There is more than that account.

And you didn't answer the question, did you?

It's a simple yes or no answer.  Do you support people giving anonymous accounts naming people as convicted rapists?  We are talking legalities here, and you do know that to claim someone has done something, to avoid the legal issues PZ is in, they have to be convicted, right?

However, let's ignore that.  Do you think that I should go on a public blog and call you a rapist?  Yes or no?  Do I have that right?  Is it legal, is it moral, is it the right thing to do?

Remember, evidence has nothing to do with it.  

But, since you say all this is not in a vacuum, where is the evidence against Shermer?  Please be sure to include the names of the accusers, possible dates, reports filed with the police - you know, evidence.  All I here is hearsay.  I have no evidence one way or another.  All I see is a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon and repeating the same rumors (such as the "blacklist" these supposed SJWs passed amongst themselves but never passed out to anybody, for about a year, such was their concern for women).

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"Just think if every species had a different genetic code We would have to eat other humans to survive.." : Joe G

  
Driver



Posts: 649
Joined: June 2011

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 19 2013,19:03   

Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 20 2013,00:55)
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,17:48)
Quote (Badger3k @ Aug. 19 2013,22:58)
 
Quote (Driver @ Aug. 19 2013,09:49)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Aug. 18 2013,17:30)
I think my favorite part of all this is the argument that the report is neither second-hand nor anonymous because PZ knows the accuser.

Y'all enjoy that crack you're smoking.

A second hand report is a report about someone else's experience, yes?

A first hand report is a report in the words of the person who experienced it, yes?

So, either the account is first hand or PZ fabricated or altered the account.

No, a first hand account is where someone tells you something that happened to them. †Directly.

Yes.

Perhaps you are confused by the fact the reporter is anonymous.

This,

"At a conference, Mr. Shermer coerced me into a position where I could not consent, and then had sex with me. I canít give more details than that, as it would reveal my identity, and I am very scared that he will come after me in some way. But I wanted to share this story in case it helps anyone else ward off a similar situation from happening. I reached out to one organization that was involved in the event at which I was raped, and they refused to take my concerns seriously. Ever since, Iíve heard stories about him doing things (5 different people have directly told me they did the same to them) and wanted to just say something and warn people, and I didnít know how. I hope this protects someone."

is presented as a first-hand account, the content of an email written by the person who experienced the event. Her direct words. Unless PZ Myers forged the account, it is first hand.

Perhaps the subtlety is whats confusing you. †PZ has (supposedly, but for the sake of argument we can go with it) a first hand account. †He is giving it to us. †We are getting a second hand account. †It's simple.

So when a newspaper publishes (gives to us) the words of a witness to an event, that is a second hand account?

If PZ had published the account as a guest post by "Jane Doe" would that be a second hand account?

Is a transcript of a conversation a second-hand account?

Is the transcript of an email a second-hand account?

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Why would I concern myself with evidence, when IMO "evidence" is only the mind arranging thought and matter to support what one already wishes to believe? - William J Murray

[A]t this time a forum like this one is nothing less than a national security risk. - Gary Gaulin

  
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