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The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,05:53   

Louis whines:
       
Quote
Was it I who advocated the beating of the mentally ill if engaged in offensive acts? Nope.

Good for you. Then again, neither was I. See my recent responses to Nine.
       
Quote
Was it I who repeatedly posted pics of muscley men and cartoon characters about smashing "evos" and "libruls"? Nope.

Wow, my pictures are really burning a hole into yer p-nut brain, ain't they? Maybe I should post a few more to keep you company during those long, lonely hours at the lab.


The middle guy (heh!;)) is pretty cute, isn't he? He's also a good fighter. The sport has some of the best athletes around, but since the "whitebreads" do a little too well, the MSM won't cover it even though the ratings are through the roof.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,07:26   

IN response to Paleys quip about what cowards we have become:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5214104.stm

Quote
The pensioner fought back, refused to let go of her bag and screamed for help. Members of the public grabbed Bews and held him until police arrived.


So, given CoP exhibits signs of being a creationist, do you reckon this one incident disproves his entire thesis?

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,08:05   

Arlo wrote:
 
Quote
So, given CoP exhibits signs of being a creationist, do you reckon this one incident disproves his entire thesis?

How old was this lady? Did she grow up before, or after, the hippies took over?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Stephen Elliott



Posts: 1776
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,09:13   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 25 2006,10:53)
He's also a good fighter. The sport has some of the best athletes around, but since the "whitebreads" do a little too well, the MSM won't cover it even though the ratings are through the roof.

Not being based in the USA, I have no idea what sports are given most coverage.

Is swimming reported? Whitey tends to do quite well at that. Swimmers are also fairly athletic I believe.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,10:00   

S. Elliot:
       
Quote
Not being based in the USA, I have no idea what sports are given most coverage.

Is swimming reported? Whitey tends to do quite well at that. Swimmers are also fairly athletic I believe.


Outside of Olympic coverage, no. But the ratings may not justify it. I do remember the diver Greg Louganis getting a lot of airtime, but I think he's admitted to being gay, so I don't know if he would count. I remember MMA fighter Maurice Smith being on a talk show after he beat Mark Coleman, but after his loss to Randy Couture the media seemed to lose interest (coincidentally, I am sure, Mo is black and the other two fellas are white). Anyway, Spike TV (on cable) hosts some matches, and video stores like Blockbusters will carry DVD copies of PPV matches, but otherwise it's considered a "fringe" sport despite the fact that some MMA programming (The Ultimate Fighter, for example) beats the Big Three in national ratings. Also, there's occasional threats to ban MMA, despite the fact that the organisers have made the sport much safer. The IOC is threatening to drop boxing from the Olympic games. %^$#% Russians!  :D  :D  :D  :D

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,10:42   

By the way, the North American media does fret if a sport becomes too white, as this sarcastic blogger notes. Here's some supporting evidence. Some European journalists get nervous too.

But when it's the other way, it's either peachy or due to biology.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
guthrie



Posts: 696
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,12:15   

Given the article says she was 85 years old in the first paragraph, I think we can safely say that GoP is exhibiting all the signs of creationist selective reading.  Is there a fancy latin name for this?

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,13:31   

The funny thing about the whole race/sports issue is that most conservatives don't give a toss about "racially correct" teams; we just want one that wins. Sure, it's nice to see one of our boys do well (Jeremy Wariner is a beast), but that's not what ties you to a sport. When I think of boxing, I think of Sugar Ray Leonard, Ali, Thomas Hearns, Marvin Hagler, Aaron Pryor and my all-time hero, Alexis Arguello. When baseball comes to mind, I remember Dale Murphy, Tom Glavine, and the other great Braves stars. Let the athletes compete and the best ones will shake out. They don't need the media's "help".

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 25 2006,22:26   

Whassamatter Ghosty?

Tired of being a demonstrably deluded little inadequate? Why are you wasting your/our time with your nonsensical and paranoid fantasies about racial bias and "librul" conspiracies? Is it because you lack the intellectual honesty or ability to produce your much touted geocentric bullshit...oops sorry....model? Is it because you have no evidence for this at all? Is it because your mouth makes claims neither your body or mind can support?

Why yes it is!

You're just a teensy bit pathetic aren't you Ghosty. Pity poor Ghosty for he is weak and stupid and he is a self loathing closet case. Pity poor Ghosty because he obviously lost in love to a "librul", i.e. his hand rejected him. Sorry Ghosty, you're just a wanker, it's only a pity your father wasn't. May your earholes turn to arseholes so you shit all over your shirt, as they say!

Now do the geocentrism or I shall taunt you some more.

Louis

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Bye.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 26 2006,08:33   

Mutt:
 
Quote
Why are you wasting your/our time with your nonsensical and paranoid fantasies about racial bias and "librul" conspiracies?

Because I keep hearing about stuff like this:
Quote
A branch of one of the world's biggest banks has been found guilty of racism after a senior member of staff told a colleague she would be voting for Robert Kilroy-Silk at the last general election because she said he promised to "get rid of the foreigners".

The remark was overheard by another employee, who sued the bank, HSBC, for race discrimination. Ruby Schembri, 35, a Maltese national, reported the remark. This week an employment tribunal ruled the remark could be construed as racist and ordered HSBC and the supervisor to pay compensation. The case is one of the first to find that a comment not directly made to another person can constitute racism.
[....]
She said: "Debbie asked Rosemary if she supported the Tory or Labour Party and bluntly stated, 'I am against immigration'. My ears pricked up and then Debbie added 'I hate foreigners'. I was shocked and offended. Debbie made her statement with real conviction." Ms Johnstone had made no reply.

(...)
In her witness statement, Ms Jones said that all she had said was that she would vote for Mr. Kilroy-Silk because he would get rid of immigrants. She denied using the word foreigners. But the tribunal considered her contemporaneous statement, made in 2005, when she admitted she had said she would vote for Mr. Kilroy-Silk because he "would get rid of the foreigners". The tribunal chairman said it was reasonable to infer that the remark showed a "substantial dislike of foreigners".
[...]
Lawrence Davies, of Equal Justice Solicitors, yesterday called for the De Souza decision to be removed from British law. He said: "The intention or aim of the maker is irrelevant, it is sufficient that it caused offence." A spokesman for HSBC said that Ms Schembri had won on just one of five grounds, and that Ms Jones had since been given race awareness training.
[...]
The European Union rejects theories which attempt to determine the existence of separate human races. The use of the term "racial origin" in this Directive does not imply an acceptance of such theories.
[...]
In the minds of European policy advisers, minority communities throughout the EU require not only protection from racial disadvantage but also better integration to prevent them becoming a volatile underclass undermining a more inclusive Europe. The EU Commission recognized this long ago and set about creating the climate within which to take action against the growing menace of racism. It remained vigilant, nevertheless, of the fact that political volatility brought on by economic black spots led to an increase in xenophobia. The fact that economic prosperity also relies on a mobile and younger migrant community, a readily available source of cheap labour, is not to be discounted.

See the site for the source of these quotes. So let's see: the British government, and presumably the rest of Europe, are supplying freshly-minted citizens with the legal right to have white people sent to "reeducation" camps on a moment's notice, with noncompliance resulting in loss of livelihood and possible prison time. Understand?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
MidnightVoice



Posts: 380
Joined: Aug. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 26 2006,10:52   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 25 2006,13:05)
Arlo wrote:
 
Quote
So, given CoP exhibits signs of being a creationist, do you reckon this one incident disproves his entire thesis?

How old was this lady? Did she grow up before, or after, the hippies took over?

Did you try looking at the link?

She was 85

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If I fly the coop some time
And take nothing but a grip
With the few good books that really count
It's a necessary trip

I'll be gone with the girl in the gold silk jacket
The girl with the pearl-driller's hands

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: July 26 2006,23:35   

Ghosty,

Guess what? I think that story is abysmal too. There's a lot in the article I agree with, people in positions of authority have a duty to respect the diverse nature of their employees, the woman's comment was crass and potentially offensive, but merits no more than a quite comment from anyone so offended. I also agree with some aspects of the EU racial integration policies, although I will agree these are sometimes enacted foolishly.

What the offended party should have done is.......pretty much nothing. I am sick of "I'm offended" being the standard by which free speech and social discourse are governed. If this offended party had any sense, the most she should have done is quietly take the offender aside at a suitably opportune and discrete moment and quietly mention that she overheard the comment, clearly not intended for her ears, and would welcome any opportunity to discuss it, and would greatly appreciate if such sentiments were not expressed in her presence again. And that is the limit of what is needed. Personally, I would have ignored it if it were an isolated incident.

Mind you, if there was a racist culture in that branch, in which this person was the victim of daily abuse and discrimination (and reading the case I don't think she was) then she has every right and duty to go to a tribunal and sort the racist scumbag out.

Less sensitivity and more sense on the part of the offendee, more empathy and sense on the part of the offender. Simple, sensible manners and professionalism get you though the day every time.

Were I to have views like that of the offender (and I don't) I would certainly not express them in the workplace and certainly not in earshot of colleagues who might be mortally offended and feel persecuted. It's the give and take of the professional world.

Louis

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Bye.

  
Tim



Posts: 40
Joined: Sep. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2006,04:23   

Quote
See the site for the source of these quotes. So let's see: the British government, and presumably the rest of Europe, are supplying freshly-minted citizens with the legal right to have white people sent to "reeducation" camps on a moment's notice, with noncompliance resulting in loss of livelihood and possible prison time. Understand?

Just to add to Louis' points above, what on earth has this case got to do with a "liberal conspiracy" in the first place?

As someone who works for the HSBC umbrella and is acutely aware of their sensitivity to such things as race awareness, this seems to me to be a global bank which is explicitly promoting a culturally diverse work ethic internally, and its "The World's Local Bank" ethic externally, protecting its image.

A case like this is potentially damaging to this carefully nurtured commercial image. It could damage sales, the bottom line, and, in toto, what is more important to HSBC than that?

If you'll read your quoted source more carefully, you'll note that it is HSBC themselves who sent their errant employee on "race awareness training", not the courts, not the British Government, and not as the result of any EU directive. So you are wrong on that count GoP. The employee did not lose her job, nor was she disciplined internally. So you are wrong on that count too.

Liberal conspiracy? Pff. It's about protecting corporate image and the bottom line. Liberalism need not apply.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2006,05:29   

Tim:
 
Quote
A case like this is potentially damaging to this carefully nurtured commercial image. It could damage sales, the bottom line, and, in toto, what is more important to HSBC than that?

If you'll read your quoted source more carefully, you'll note that it is HSBC themselves who sent their errant employee on "race awareness training", not the courts, not the British Government, and not as the result of any EU directive.

True enough, I should have been clearer on that. But why do you think these measures are necessary in the first place? In America, corporations conduct "sensitivity seminars", hire "diversity consultants", and impose "speech codes" as a cynical measure to avoid lawsuits by the EEOC. Very little of this is truly voluntary. And the American companies seek an artificially "diverse" workplace to meet de facto quota requirements, not because they find a multicultural workplace fetching. They want the best people for the job, and if that means nothing but Indians, Jews, and Koreans, so be it. Too bad the government finds these groups, as well as white gentiles, too competitive; excuse me, "indicative of institutional racism".

Are things really that different in the UK?

Quote
Liberal conspiracy? Pff. It's about protecting corporate image and the bottom line. Liberalism need not apply.


Excellent! So now we can dismantle heavy-handed government regulation in this area, correct? After all, the companies don't need it, because the "bottom line" demands multicultural companies. Or do I misinterpret?

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2006,06:49   

Tim:
           
Quote
The employee did not lose her job, nor was she disciplined internally. So you are wrong on that count too.

Whoops. Forgot to address this claim.

Well, that clearly wasn't my point. My point was, if she had refused the class, she would have been disciplined or fired. I can't prove this, but it's a logical inference. Also, the EU commission is clearly itching to insert itself into the marketplace, or jawbone the local governments into doing so. Trust me, you ain't seen nothin' yet.


Mid Voice:
           
Quote
Did you try looking at the link?

She was 85

No, Mr. Vidal, you are mistaken: irony is dead on both sides of the Atlantic.

Louis:
         
Quote
Guess what? I think that story is abysmal too. There's a lot in the article I agree with, people in positions of authority have a duty to respect the diverse nature of their employees, the woman's comment was crass and potentially offensive, but merits no more than a quite comment from anyone so offended. I also agree with some aspects of the EU racial integration policies, although I will agree these are sometimes enacted foolishly.

See, here's my problem. If minority cultures are really "all that", to use a phrase that American liberals can understand, then why are minority peoples so sensitive? I mean, I see white-bashing and stereotypes all the time, and while I do complain, it's mostly because it's coupled with government regulation. The racism itself doesn't worry me; heck, one of the few shows I watch is King of the Hill, which savages white culture and people. I like it cause it's funny and the white stereotypes escape the cage their creators place them in. Sorta like being a black fan of Amos n' Andy, I guess. By the way, The Simpsons was also intended as a send-up of white, middle-class people. Makes no difference; Homer's great, and that's all that counts.
       
Quote
What the offended party should have done is.......pretty much nothing. I am sick of "I'm offended" being the standard by which free speech and social discourse are governed. If this offended party had any sense, the most she should have done is quietly take the offender aside at a suitably opportune and discrete moment and quietly mention that she overheard the comment, clearly not intended for her ears, and would welcome any opportunity to discuss it, and would greatly appreciate if such sentiments were not expressed in her presence again. And that is the limit of what is needed. Personally, I would have ignored it if it were an isolated incident.

Yes, I agree with keeping your politics to yourself in a professional setting. But I think you're missing the point. You're interpreting minority viewpoints in terms of Western concepts like tolerance, fair play, self-restraint, and empathy for the other person's POV. Non-Western cultures do not embrace these attitudes.  For example, I can't tell you the number of times I've heard black, mestizo, or Muslim associates whine about "racist mindsets" on Monday, and then make disparaging comments about Jews, Asians, Whites, and other ethnic groups on Tuesday. Don't take my word for it; listen to what their leaders and entertainers say. If you point out the hypocrisy, they usually respond with, "Everybody knows it's true with these people". Muslims, as a group, don't want to assimilate to the West; they want to replace it. They'll cynically play the "religious discrimination" card when they're in the minority; as soon as they become the majority they drive out competing faiths (and yes, Christians often behave this way too--doesn't change the fact that it's Christian, and not Islamic, nations that people are flocking to). That's why ethnic minorities almost never complain when the racial disparities favour them -- only when it goes against them. Yes, there are many individual exceptions, but the general cultural differences are very obvious.
   
Quote
Mind you, if there was a racist culture in that branch, in which this person was the victim of daily abuse and discrimination (and reading the case I don't think she was) then she has every right and duty to go to a tribunal and sort the racist scumbag out.

Define "racist culture", "abuse", and "discrimination". I find these words have very vague parameters in practice. Besides, if they find it so intolerable, why not start their own businesses like penniless Indians, Koreans, etc. do? Somehow, Whitey can't keep these groups down. Why not? I thought white racism was all-powerful.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: July 27 2006,10:29   

This will be my last post today, so I thought I'd end with a nice quote that shows the futility of Louis's point of view. Enjoy:
 
Quote
In a true, totalitarian society such as the old Soviet Union, crime rates are usually low because of the crushing state control of all its citizens. Supposedly, street crime in Moscow in the USSR was rare, probably because the state itself was the biggest criminal. In contrast, in the European Union of today, which is not a totalitarian society, at least not yet, crime rates are booming in major cities. At the same time, authorities are stepping up censorship efforts, openly talking about media “speech codes” and aggressively slapping labels such as “racism” or “xenophobia” on anybody daring to criticize the immigration policies or pointing out the inadequate response to Muslim gang violence.

There is obviously a connection here: The less control the authorities have with Muslims, the more control they want to exercise over non-Muslims. As problems in Europe get worse, which they will, the EU will move in an increasingly repressive direction until it either becomes a true, totalitarian entity or falls apart. This strange mix of powerful censorship of public debate, yet little control over public law and order, has by some been labelled anarcho-tyranny.

While Islamic groups in Britain openly brag about how they are going to subdue the country by violent means or call for beheading those insulting Islam, Bryan Cork, 49, of Carlisle, Cumbria, in the Lake District, was sentenced to six months in jail for standing outside a mosque shouting, “Proud to be British,” and “Go back to where you came from.” One British court ruled that even use of the word “immigrant” as an insult could amount to proof of racial hostility.
[....]
The author of the most important book on the subject – a German professor of ancient Semitic and Arabic languages – prefers to write under the pseudonym Christoph Luxenberg. Not because of lawsuits of “racism,” but out of plain fear for Muslim violence. According to Luxenberg, the chapters or suras of the Koran usually ascribed to the Mecca period, which are also the most tolerant and non-violent ones as opposed to the much harsher and more violent chapters from Medina, are not “Islamic” at all, but Christian:
[....]
George Orwell said: “If freedom of speech means anything at all, it is the freedom to say things that people do not want to hear,” and he was right. Multiculturalists who claim that freedom of speech does not include the freedom to offend others are wrong. In the doctrine of John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty, published in 1859, the right to freedom of expression and its conditions are stated clearly. The most fundamental principle of a freely operating liberal society is the right to the “freedom of opinion.” The only exception in which Mill conceived such freedom to be limited was if it were to impose severe harm onto others – and he declared this to be a rare thing.

Gerard Alexander warns against what he calls “illiberal Europe,” by which he means the dramatic expansion of laws to sanction speech that “incites hatred” against groups based on their religion, race or ethnicity. Such laws have been passed in Western European nations since the 1970s. “The real danger posed by Europe’s speech laws is not so much guilty verdicts as an insidious chilling of political debate, as people censor themselves in order to avoid legal charges and the stigma and expense they bring.”

This “swirl of speech-law charges, lawsuits, and investigations” is now sustained by an “antiracism” industry. “Europe’s speech laws are written and applied in ways that leave activists on the political left free to whitewash crimes of leftist regimes, incite hatred against their domestic bogeymen of the well-to-do, and luridly stereotype their international bogeymen, often with history-distorting falsehoods such as fictitious claims of genocide said to be committed by the United States and Israel. It may be no coincidence that Socialist and extreme-left parties have played central roles in the design of speech laws.”
[....]
In the book, Rasoel stated that “Being offended is sometimes purely a form of aggression.” A fitting commentary to both the Rushdie situation and the cartoon Jihad nearly a generation later. “The future is already here. The Netherlands is no longer the safe nation of the past, where a girl could walk alone through the park at night.” “The Dutch, and I mean those who aren’t six feet under ground already, have all in all turned into a frightened people, afraid to make jokes about Muslims, to offend them, fool them, and criticize or correct them.” “Dutchmen have basically been driven into a corner by the Muslims.”

Remember, this was written around 1990. And Rasoel warned that it would get worse. Much worse.

“The behavior of the Muslims currently hasn’t fully deployed yet, and can be compared to the one of the boy who is new at a club. It takes a while before the ice is broken and he starts to move more at ease, until at last his true nature becomes visible.” “And though the Dutch will fight for their norms and values, the Muslims will not only surprise them once again with their barbaric methods, they will punch straight through their soft and decent defense.” “Afterwards the Muslims will steadily continue to overmaster and dominate the Dutch, who will have no choice but to participate in a game of tug of war where they will steadily lose ground.” “By 2050 there will be no Netherlands left, or at least, nothing worth calling it that.”
[...]
The reason why European authorities are becoming increasingly totalitarian in their censorship efforts is to conceal the fact that they are no longer willing or able to uphold even the most basic security of their citizenry. If their governments are no longer capable of protecting them and their freedom of speech, Europeans may have to arm themselves to do this on their own. Michael Moore’s books, ridiculing American “gun nuts,” are bestsellers in Europe. Sadly, The Bill of Rights is less popular reading. Perhaps the time has come for Europeans to also take a second look at the Second Amendment – The right for the people to keep and bear arms.


A "gun nut": Someone who holds that the law-abiding have a right to life, too.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,00:18   

Ghosty,

"Nice" article....totally irrelevant. You're fighting a strawman of your own imagining. Perhaps I am a "liberal", but I think we have two very different meanings of that word in mind when we use it.

I don't think people of different "races" (it's not a term I think valid) or nationalities cannot be racist. Shit, I KNOW they can be. Talk to my mother-in-law to find out, she's worse than your average KKK member!

I am also worried about racism in policy and the workplace whoever it comes from, black, white or polka dotted green and mango. The colour of the racist, or the origin of the racist doesn't bother me, it's the racism that counts. Do we live in a perfect society? Nope. Do some of the "affirmative action" type programmes and "reverse discrimination" policies just make things worse and demonstrate a reverse racism in their own right? Yes, of course they do. What these policies are trying to do, no matter how badly in terms of their intent, is redress the balance, or if not redress it, at least try to make it fairer. Personally I am strongly against giving someone a job because they fulfill a racial quota or such like. I think it is highly patronising. What I think we should do is educate people to realise that perfect equality is a long hard road, and it's not something you get given, it's something you earn. Equality comes in after "educational" experiences like mixed schools, promoting diversity (not enforcing it), educating people about the commonalities we share not the differences alone. It really can and does work. I think "affirmative action" programmes can sometimes help, but more often they create suspicion and resentment. I think they are racist and counter productive in the main, although I am happy to be wrong about that.

I also agree with you aside about certain groups that have earnt their place in society by hard work, of course it is impossible to generalise but in British society at least I can think of several groups who have historically come in and worked their way up, not least the branch of one group that eventually (2 generations later) gave rise to me!

Anyway, we all know what you're doing Ghosty, googling about to support your own racist and anti-immigration views. Ask yourself one question Ghosty, how did you come to be born in the USA? Are you a native American? Or are you the child of immigrants? Is it possible that some of the immigrant community you are possibly from are less wonderful than yourself?

Louis

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Bye.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,04:52   

Louis:
 
Quote
I don't think people of different "races" (it's not a term I think valid) or nationalities cannot be racist. Shit, I KNOW they can be. Talk to my mother-in-law to find out, she's worse than your average KKK member!


Just out of curiosity, what race is your mother-in-law?

 
Quote
What I think we should do is educate people to realise that perfect equality is a long hard road, and it's not something you get given, it's something you earn. Equality comes in after "educational" experiences like mixed schools, promoting diversity (not enforcing it), educating people about the commonalities we share not the differences alone. It really can and does work.


All well and good. But suppose your gentler approach doesn't work -- what would you do then?

 
Quote
I also agree with you aside about certain groups that have earnt their place in society by hard work, of course it is impossible to generalise but in British society at least I can think of several groups who have historically come in and worked their way up, not least the branch of one group that eventually (2 generations later) gave rise to me!


May I ask about your ethnic origin? It will help me make sense of this statement, because if you're white then I don't get the point.

 
Quote
Anyway, we all know what you're doing Ghosty, googling about to support your own racist and anti-immigration views. Ask yourself one question Ghosty, how did you come to be born in the USA? Are you a native American? Or are you the child of immigrants? Is it possible that some of the immigrant community you are possibly from are less wonderful than yourself?


Most (but not all!;)) of my ancestry is European, of the Norman French/German/British variety. Now it's true that Europeans made life #### for Amerindians -- but that just proves my point. My Indian ancestors were too trusting, and look what happened!!!

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,05:40   

Ghosty,

My or my mother in law's ethnicity are not of any relevance. My mother in law is an immigrant to the UK as was my grandfather, it makes no difference if either of us are black, white, African, European, Asian, pink, or lilac. All that needs to be the case is if we are identifiable in some way (skin colour, accent, surname, religion etc etc) as being from an ethnic or national minority.

BTW she isn't as extreme as a KKK member, I was indulging in a bit of "my mother in law is so...." humourous hyperbole. She is however much more racist than the average Brit I encounter and also places far more significance on race.

As for what I would do if my approach to educating all people and allowing "nature" to take it's course with regards to equal representation in the workplace (for example) failed to work, difficult question. For example, (in my experience, I'd have to look this up to back it with anything more concrete) British people of my age/generation are, on average, more tolerant of those of a different race/nationality to themselves than people of my parent's age/generation. Laws about race discrimination came in well after I was born, however the social aspects of my education almost always centred on tolerance of diversity when it came to race.

Lastly, if for just one second you think that the major reason that Brits (and other Europeans) conquered America because the Native Americans were too trusting then you are out of your tiny mind....which granted we already knew. Factor in social factors, availability of technology etc etc and you'll get closer. Simple fact is that some cultures weren't so trusting when the Brits came to play. Didn't do 'em any good of course, we had guns and other such good stuff.

Louis

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Bye.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,11:38   

Louis:
         
Quote
Ghosty,

My or my mother in law's ethnicity are not of any relevance.


In other words, "We're both as white as a guy wearing black socks with his swimtrunks in a suburban back yard, ABBA playing softly in the background. But I was sorta hoping you wouldn't notice." Gotcha. So, what's the point of yer little anecdote? That white immigrants suceed in white countries? Not too surprising, that.

         
Quote
Lastly, if for just one second you think that the major reason that Brits (and other Europeans) conquered America because the Native Americans were too trusting then you are out of your tiny mind....which granted we already knew. Factor in social factors, availability of technology etc etc and you'll get closer. Simple fact is that some cultures weren't so trusting when the Brits came to play. Didn't do 'em any good of course, we had guns and other such good stuff.


Yes, I've also read Guns, Germs, and Steel. By the way, did you know that Jared Diamond once studied testicle size differences between white and asian men? We all know what he was hoping for, but, alas, whitey proved to be better hung, so he quickly whined for a comparison with West African males. Too bad the scientific community didn't fund this earth-shattering study. He coulda been somebody!  

:D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D

Ah, the liberal mind in action.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,22:05   

Ghosty,

Oops, you didn't "get me" at all. Like I said, what "race" my mother in law or I are (and they are different "races") is of no consequence. All that matters is that we can both be assumed to be foreign/immigrants based on easily obtainable "first impression" type information (e.g. accent, appearance, surname, skin colour, dress etc etc). The point was not that either of us are white or not, the point was that there are many means used to identify someone's "race", and that they are more varied than a decent tan! As it happens you certainly wouldn't class my mother in law as "white", and I got called a "Paki" regularly at school despite the fact that my origin (at least THAT side of my origins) are very far from the Indian subcontinent. The point is that we can identify someone's "race" in myriad ways, skin colour being only one of them.

After all would you expect a candidate for a job interview you were giving to be white or black if his/her name was Kofi Mbege? What if the name was C. Freeman? Or Magnus Thorson? Or Didier Poitier? What about Leslie Smith? Do you see my point yet? (Oh and it isn't that white immigrants succeed in white countries dumbass. Look at the trouble the Irish had in England and the US over a century ago).

Next, I wasn't getting my information from "Guns, Germs and Steel", I haven't read it (yes I know I should). People do have a wider reading list than you Ghosty, try it sometime. I also have no interest in how poor/good Diamond's work on testicle size was, nor your undoubtedly distorted view of things.

You seem to be constantly beating up strawmen of your own imagining Ghosty. Are there genetic and phenotypic differences between human "races"? Why yes there are, shock horror, roll around in amazement. And this means what precisely?

Tell me Ghosty, on average, is the genetic difference between two human "races" bigger or smaller than the genetic difference within those two same human "races"? Since I already know the answer to this Ghosty, I'll let you in on it. The difference within two human "races" is normally significantly bigger than between the same two human "races". What does that tell you?

Keep trawling aorund trying to justify your bigotry and bullshit Ghosty, and we'll just keep trying to honestly figure out the universe and use that knowledge to the betterment of as much as we can, as best we can.

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Bye.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 01 2006,22:49   

P.S. Actually, I've had another thought regarding this. Ghosty, my bad, since you're clearly on the wind up, and nothing more than an inconsequential troll and/or moron (I am beginning to revise my charitable interpretation of piss-taking troll, to piss-taking, moronic troll), we'll leave it here thanks.

Take your racist ideologies and stuff them in the other thread (Paley Goes to the Movies) as that seems to be the best place for them. Rather than keep responding to you here, lets take it over there where other people can play with your ridiculous ideological nonsense more amusingly. Don't ever get the impression you are taken seriously Ghosty, because you're obviously a clueless fuckwit.

Louis

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Bye.

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,04:58   

Louis:
         
Quote
Ghosty,

Oops, you didn't "get me" at all. Like I said, what "race" my mother in law or I are (and they are different "races") is of no consequence. All that matters is that we can both be assumed to be foreign/immigrants based on easily obtainable "first impression" type information (e.g. accent, appearance, surname, skin colour, dress etc etc).


But your refusal to identify your (and your mother in law's) race destroys the value of your anecdote. After all, my contention is that certain nationalities thrive in Western societies while others don't. Obviously, you're trying veeeeery hard to imply that you're a counterexample. So are you a counterexample or not? In other words, is a significant part of your ancestry not traceable to Indian, European, Jewish, or NE Asian heritage? If you are a counterexample, there's no reason to be coy about this. Why can't liberals answer the easiest questions?
         
Quote
Tell me Ghosty, on average, is the genetic difference between two human "races" bigger or smaller than the genetic difference within those two same human "races"? Since I already know the answer to this Ghosty, I'll let you in on it. The difference within two human "races" is normally significantly bigger than between the same two human "races". What does that tell you?

Louis, you big dummy, if you're going to preen about how well-read you are, then you shouldn't trash your reputation by trotting out this hoariest of liberal chestnuts. Yes, I'm well aware of this fact, because I've read my Lewontin, Gould, and Cavalli-Sforza too. But unlike you, I also read between the lines. And unfortunately for your side, so does Steve Sailer:
         
Quote
The New York Times has hailed Genes, Peoples, and Languages, the new book by Professor Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza[....], the dean of population geneticists, for "dismantling the idea of race." In the New York Review of Books, Jared Diamond salutes Cavalli-Sforza for "demolishing scientists' attempts to classify human populations into races in the same way that they classify birds and other species into races" [snip citation]
[...]
Don't believe any of this. It’s merely a politically-correct smoke screen that Cavalli-Sforza regularly pumps out to keep his life's work -- distinguishing the races of mankind and compiling their genealogies -- from being defunded by the leftist mystagogues at Stanford.
[...]
This is Cavalli-Sforza's description of the map that is the capstone of his half century of labor in human genetics:

"The color map of the world shows very distinctly the differences that we know exist among the continents: Africans (yellow), Caucasoids (green), Mongoloids … (purple), and Australian Aborigines (red). The map does not show well the strong Caucasoid component in northern Africa, but it does show the unity of the other Caucasoids from Europe, and in West, South, and much of Central Asia."

Basically, all his number-crunching has produced a map that looks about like what you'd get if you gave an unreconstructed Strom Thurmond a paper napkin and a box of crayons and had him draw a racial map of the world.


In fact, at the global level, Cavalli-Sforza has largely confirmed the prejudices of the more worldly 19th Century imperialists. Rudyard Kipling, Cecil Rhodes, and Francis Galton could have hunkered down together and whipped up something rather like this map in honor of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee.
[...]
Cavalli-Sforza's team compiled extraordinary tables depicting the "genetic distances" separating 2,000 different racial groups from each other. For example, assume the genetic distance between the English and the Danes is equal to 1.0. Then, Cavalli-Sforza has found, the separation between the English and the Italians would be about 2.5 times as large as the English-Danish difference. On this scale, the Iranians would be 9 times more distant genetically from the English than the Danes, and the Japanese 59 times. Finally, the gap between the English and the Bantus (the main group of sub-Saharan blacks) is 109 times as large as the distance between the English and the Danish. (The genetic distance between Japanese and Bantus is even greater.)

From these kind of tables, Cavalli-Sforza reached this general conclusion: "The most important difference in the human gene pool is clearly that between Africans and non-Africans …"
As you can imagine, this finding could get him in a bit of hot water if the campus thought police ever found out about it. So we should certainly forgive the charade he keeps up to fool the New York Times. But we definitely don't have to agree.

[my emphasis]


So I'm not going to start quaking when you display your vast command of population genetics. Flap your wings, little butterfly!

   
Quote
Take your racist ideologies and stuff them in the other thread (Paley Goes to the Movies) as that seems to be the best place for them. Rather than keep responding to you here, lets take it over there where other people can play with your ridiculous ideological nonsense more amusingly. Don't ever get the impression you are taken seriously Ghosty, because you're obviously a clueless fuckwit.

Ummmm....if you'd been paying attention, you would realise that I don't subscribe to "racist" ideologies. In fact, I just wrote a recent post refuting racial determinism. Ya oughtta read it, ya might learn a thing or two. But if you want to carry the "debate" (more like a one-sided drubbing of a limey trash-talker) over to the other thread, be my guest. I'd just as soon pummel you there as here. But do bring something to the table other than insults.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,07:17   

Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!

Google trawled bullshit from a conservative movie reviewer well known for deliberate confusing of genetics and racial issues to make a racist point? Oh Ghosty surely you can do better than that? Honestly, he doesn't even complete the quote. It's so obviously taken out of context that it is laughable.

Page 93, first sentence of section 2.5 (titled: Comparison with Archeological Data)

"The most important difference in the human gene pool is clearly that between Africans and non-Africans, correcting earlier conclusions. This suggests that the split between Africans and non-Africans was earliest in human evolutionary history, a suggestion subject to validation of the hypothesis that rates of evolution are constant. "

The chap in question is clearly talking about genetic differences that support various hypotheses about human evolution and migration (i.e. multiregional, out of Africa etc etc). Read the book fucknuts. Stevie's quote out of context and misuse of that quote is as dishonest as your use of it. And as erroneous. Nice try Ghosty. Do try again. What a laughable little goon you are.

Oh and by the way, I'm not debating with you here, you're not worth debating with. I'm merely poking you with a pointy stick to see what further bullshit you'll come out with.

As for my and my mother in law's ethnicity, the reason I'm being coy is because I don't give out too many personal details to fruitcakes on the internet (that would be you). However, if it helps you, I can confirm that neither my mother in law or I have any "racial" background from outside of Asia or Europe in the last 5 generations or so (as far as I am aware!;). You misunderstand the use of my anecdote. By the way Ghosty, I know full well that anecdotal evidecne is insufficient to establish anything, all I was doing was providing a counter example to your anecdotal claims. See?

And no I am not African and neither is my mother in law. Are you restricting your claims to African/black people then Ghosty? Oh dear, you are in for a rough ride.

Also stop attacking strawmen. I am not denying that humans have differences and that black people and white people (for instance) have genetic and phenotypic differences that can be broadly catagorised based on geographical population distribution. Find a different line of bullshit to tote. I love it when puerile little insignificances like yourself claim victory with no foundation. It amuses me.

Oh and as for bringing more than insults to the table, you do remember the orbital discussion don't you Ghosty? You do remember that your google trawling didn't serve you there either? Forgive me if I doubt you possess the wit or lack the cognitive dissonance to do so.

Louis

P.S. Race is a very loose and imprecise term in either sociology or anthropology/human biology. You're going to have your work cut out for you if you want to try to establish what you are clearly trying to establish. Remember Ghosty, I don't care WHAT the answer is, I just care HOW the answer is arrived at. I am perfectly open to the idea that black people are better than white people or vice versa, but the idea has to be supported by the evidence. It isn't. Except in limited senses where we prick about with the word "better", which to be honest I am not interested in bothering to do because it is futile nonsense. Like I said Ghosty, it's not the WHAT that matters, it's the HOW. If you could conclusively prove that white people were genetically superior in every way it STILL wouldn't make any difference. Ever hear of the "Is-Ought" fallacy?

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Bye.

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,07:29   

Quote (The Ghost of Paley @ July 25 2006,10:53)
Louis whines:
         
Quote
Was it I who advocated the beating of the mentally ill if engaged in offensive acts? Nope.

Good for you. Then again, neither was I. See my recent responses to Nine.
         
Quote
Was it I who repeatedly posted pics of muscley men and cartoon characters about smashing "evos" and "libruls"? Nope.

Wow, my pictures are really burning a hole into yer p-nut brain, ain't they? Maybe I should post a few more to keep you company during those long, lonely hours at the lab.


The middle guy (heh!;)) is pretty cute, isn't he? He's also a good fighter. The sport has some of the best athletes around, but since the "whitebreads" do a little too well, the MSM won't cover it even though the ratings are through the roof.

Lord, more of Paley's ridiculous tough guy nonsense? Photos of wrestlers, photos of boxers, cartoons of superheros beating people up... He seems to have some real, uh, masculinity issues here.

Paley, a hint: the tough guy routine doesn't work on an anonymous internet forum, especially when you're surrounded by your intellectual superiors. You just end up looking pathetic.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
The Ghost of Paley



Posts: 1703
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,09:25   

Louis:
         
Quote
Google trawled bullshit from a conservative movie reviewer well known for deliberate confusing of genetics and racial issues to make a racist point? Oh Ghosty surely you can do better than that? Honestly, he doesn't even complete the quote. It's so obviously taken out of context that it is laughable.


Did he? Let's see.

         
Quote
Page 93, first sentence of section 2.5 (titled: Comparison with Archeological Data)

"The most important difference in the human gene pool is clearly that between Africans and non-Africans, correcting earlier conclusions. This suggests that the split between Africans and non-Africans was earliest in human evolutionary history, a suggestion subject to validation of the hypothesis that rates of evolution are constant. "

The chap in question is clearly talking about genetic differences that support various hypotheses about human evolution and migration (i.e. multiregional, out of Africa etc etc). Read the book fucknuts. Stevie's quote out of context and misuse of that quote is as dishonest as your use of it. And as erroneous. Nice try Ghosty. Do try again. What a laughable little goon you are.


Apparently, a goon with better reading comprehension skills than you. Let me help you out by re-quoting this bit:
         
Quote
This suggests that the split between Africans and non-Africans was earliest in human evolutionary history


Now let me show you a purty picture.

Study the little tree real hard. Notice it has two main branches. How do the authors label the branches? Would this primary branching indicate a primary difference, or not?
Here's a passage to help you out:
       
Quote
The most dramatic characteristic of the tree is the division between populations in sub-Saharan Africa and the rest of humanity. This is usually interpreted to mean that modern humans originated in Africa and that the population from which the rest of humanity descended left Africa somewhat less than 300,000 years ago, ultimately replacing earlier humans, like the Pithecanthropines (Homo erectus, like Peking Man, etc.), who had also evolved in Africa but left many thousands of years earlier.

[my emp]


Louis continues:
     
Quote
Oh and by the way, I'm not debating with you here, you're not worth debating with. I'm merely poking you with a pointy stick to see what further bullshit you'll come out with.


Whatever.

     
Quote
Also stop attacking strawmen. I am not denying that humans have differences and that black people and white people (for instance) have genetic and phenotypic differences that can be broadly catagorised based on geographical population distribution. Find a different line of bullshit to tote. I love it when puerile little insignificances like yourself claim victory with no foundation. It amuses me.


"Black people and white people (for instance) have genetic and phenotypic differences that can be broadly catagorised based on geographical population distribution."  I think the word you're looking for is race. Goodness, so much nervous doubletalk to obscure a relatively easy concept. Face the fact: the old way of classifying human subgroups is validated by the molecules. The liberal "race has no meaning mantra" has been falsified in a very dramatic way. Seems like you're the one strainin' to do some splainin', not me.

     
Quote

P.S. Race is a very loose and imprecise term in either sociology or anthropology/human biology.


Not according to the molecules.

     
Quote

You're going to have your work cut out for you if you want to try to establish what you are clearly trying to establish. Remember Ghosty, I don't care WHAT the answer is, I just care HOW the answer is arrived at. I am perfectly open to the idea that black people are better than white people or vice versa, but the idea has to be supported by the evidence. It isn't. Except in limited senses where we prick about with the word "better", which to be honest I am not interested in bothering to do because it is futile nonsense. Like I said Ghosty, it's not the WHAT that matters, it's the HOW. If you could conclusively prove that white people were genetically superior in every way it STILL wouldn't make any difference. Ever hear of the "Is-Ought" fallacy?


Now the liberal fear emerges: if human races exist, then so may differences between them. So let's pretend race is a meaningless concept. Except it isn't. Crime labs use the concept of DNA profiling to nab suspects. Medical researchers know that racial groups react differently to medications, and redesign treatment groups to accomodate this fact. Epidemiologists find racial categories useful. It all goes back to what Lawrence Auster calls the unprincipled exception:

   
Quote
The unprincipled exception is a non-liberal value or assertion, not explicitly identified as non-liberal, that liberals use to escape the suicidal consequences of their own liberalism, without questioning liberalism itself.

Alternatively, the unprincipled exception is a non-liberal value or assertion, not explicitly identified as non-liberal, that conservatives use to stave off the advance of liberalism, without opposing liberalism itself.

Explanation:

Modern liberalism stands for principles of equality and non-discrimination which, if followed consistently, would make a decent life in this world, or any life at all, impossible. But modern liberal society does not permit the public expression of non-liberal principles, by which rational limits to equality and non-discrimination, or indeed the very falsity of these ideas altogether, can be articulated. This fact forces liberals continually to make exceptions to their own liberalism, without admitting to themselves and others that they are doing so. Such exceptions must take inchoate, non-conceptual, pre-rational forms, such as appeals to brute self-interest or to common sense. As an example of such a “common sense” UE, a liberal who wants to escape from the negative consequences of his liberal beliefs in a given instance will say that a certain liberal idea “goes too far,” without his indicating by what principle he distinguishes between an idea that has gone “too far” and one that hasn’t. In fact, it’s purely a matter of what suits his own convenience and comfort level.

[my emp]


But the liberal is so afraid of race ('cept when he's demonising whitey) that he'd rather block medical progress than fess up to an incovenient fact. Sad, really.

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Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

  
Ved



Posts: 398
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,11:03   

Well you sure got us pegged. I for one am so committed to my Liberalism that I'm compelled to take your caricatures at face value and incorporate them into my belief system.

Except that you're white too, so you're probably evil!

  
deadman_932



Posts: 3094
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,11:25   

Quote
I think the word you're looking for is race. Goodness, so much nervous doubletalk to obscure a relatively easy concept.


"Race" is an *easy* topic, Shitforbrains? Really? What race is a San tribesman? How about a typical Madagascar native resident? How about Suomi? At what point do we term a person African, European or "mixed race?" Are the Lemba Semitic Caucasians, African or both? The Beta Israel of Ethiopia were termed "official" Jews by Israel yet the genetics shows that the Lemba, deep in South Africa have a greater degree of relatedness to the Kohanim. What are they, then? If  Maori males show genetic relatedness to southeast asia, what "race" are they? Dravidians? Most residents of Bahia, in South America? Pakistanis? Cossacks of Zaporizhia?

Tell me what number of genetic markers you consider to be capable of determining "race" for each group you consider to be a "race." Specify each one, please. Now apply those markers to each case I cited. Fucking idiot.

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AtBC Award for Thoroughness in the Face of Creationism

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,13:06   

Quote (Ved @ Aug. 02 2006,16:03)
Well you sure got us pegged. I for one am so committed to my Liberalism that I'm compelled to take your caricatures at face value and incorporate them into my belief system.

Better start reading Foucault and move to an all-white neighborhood! You've got a lot of catching up to do!

(Better do it quick, Paley might post another one of his photos of sweaty, oily, half-naked boxers.)

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Louis



Posts: 6436
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Aug. 02 2006,22:34   

Ghosty,

Once again, the point is over here...



....you are a speck in the distance.

Like I said above I would have no problem with the concept of race as you wish to use it IF it were valid as you wish to use it. I couldn't care less if whites are genetically "superior" to blacks or whatever, it's a total irrelevance. You might as well say Daschund are genetically "superior" to Great Danes. Sure in a stand up fight the Great Dane will most likely win, but try getting one down a rabbit hole. Again, like I said above, the "superior" one upmanship game you are trying to play rests on what you are considering to be "superior" NOT on the organism. Are gibbons superior to humans? How about sharks? So you see the point? Forgive me if I doubt it.

The full quote from the book, and the context it's in, CLEARLY (to anyone with the reading comprehension of a five year old) makes the point that the author is talking about molecular confirmation of migratory and evolutionary models supported by fossil evidence, NOT racial superiority. More significant genetic difference does not mean that one is "superior" to the other, unless one defines the environment in which that "superiority" is expressed very rigourously. Also, the size of that difference (i.e. its overall significance) has to be addressed, which I notice you conveniently ignore.

You can quote mine and blather all you like, but your claims don't stack up. Your strawmen aside NOBODY is denying that genetic profiling based on geographical distribution is a useful tool. NOBODY is denying that the genetic differences between human groups (or races if you like, here it has some validity at least) have demonstrable effects (epidemiology etc etc). These racial genetic differences are useful because there hasn't been complete mixing of the human genome. And this STILL misses the KEY POINT of the limitation of these uses that the genetic differences WITHIN any two races you choose are greater than the genetic differences between those same two races. That is part of the limitation of the usefulness of these differences. The other being, of course, that most of the usefulness of these differences is due to certain key markers (e.g. the marker for Tay-Sachs disease or sickle cell anemia in certain racial populations).

Thalassemia is a good example of this. If you found the genetic marker for thalassemia in a blood sample of a criminal what does it tell you? Well, we know that the approximate prevalence is 16% in people from Cyprus, 3-14 % in Thailand, and 3-8 % in populations from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and China. A lower prevalence has been reported from black people in Africa (0.9%) and northern Europe (0.1%). So immediately you have a good chance that your criminal is Cypriot or Thai. You would have to use OTHER evidence as well to narrow it down, because this racial profile based on one locus doesn't tell you if the suspect is Mediterranean, Thai, Oriental, Indian, Black or White!

Herein lies the point again, since you seem to be hard of thinking: the fact that there are greater genetic differences when we consider the genome as a whole WITHIN two races than BETWEEN those same two races, negates the blanket usefulness of the genetic determination of "race". The definition is useful in specific circumstances and cases, but NOT in the borad sweeping manner you wish it to be and are using it. You are trying to use a forklift truck to do formula 1 racing. The tool you are using is inappropriate for the job you are trying to put it to. That doesn't mean it is 100% useless in every situation.

Louis

P.S. Is anyone else tiring of Ghosty's dishonesty? AFDave jumped the shark a while ago, Ghosty definitely has leap cleanly over the Selachimorphan from day two, the only participant we have left that isn't revving his motorcycle is Skeptic (don't you agree?) although he is looking wistfully towards his hog!

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Bye.

  
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