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Paul Flocken



Posts: 290
Joined: Dec. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,12:12   

Quote (k.e @ May 28 2006,08:10)
D/2 do you apply the term  "non-Christian" to refer to mainline and liberal Christian groups as well as Muslims, Hindus, followers of Aboriginal and Neo-Pagan religions etc ?
If so why?

k.e.,
AirFarceDave doesn't accept catholics as much more than aboriginal neo-pagans.  I'll try to find the link later, but I have to go for now.  See you guys later.

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"The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie--deliberate, contrived, and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.  Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."-John F. Kennedy

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,16:38   

Quote
Thus, functional change must be extremely important for macroscopic macroevolutionary change.

Exactly, dave.

A ---> B, dave.

Starting to get the picture now, dave?

Oh and, for the next argument you present, if you want it to be a tad more convincing, try ALL CAPS, BOLDS... AND ITALICS. I hear it can help.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
Chris Hyland



Posts: 705
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 28 2006,23:26   

Quote
Many here on this thread said in effect "no evolutionist would cite bacterial resistance as an evidence for macroevolution"
Again you think that if one piece of evidence does not conclusively prove macroevolution on it's own then it is useless. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that as several people have patiently tried to explain to you. Please can you tell us why loss cannot count as a mechanism of evolution.

  
afdave



Posts: 1621
Joined: April 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,03:53   

k.e. ...  
Quote
D/2 I suppose this is the sort of inerrancy you agree with
...(lots of examples of people doing things the Bible speaks against)
Yes.  The Bible records the history of mankind as they were.  There is no covering up of faults or oddities.  The Bible just tells it like it is, but it also tells us how it should be.  No question that it is the strangest book on earth.  But they say that 'truth is stranger than fiction.'  You should investigate the Bible for yourself.  Many a skeptic has done just that and become a believer.

Caledonian ...
Quote
Nature is smarter than we are, afdave.  It is certainly smarter than *you*.
No.  Nature is not smart.  You cannot demonstrate that it is.  It is much more plausible that there is a smart Intelligent Designer.

Chris Hyland ...
Quote
Again you think that if one piece of evidence does not conclusively prove macroevolution on it's own then it is useless. I'm afraid it doesn't work like that as several people have patiently tried to explain to you. Please can you tell us why loss cannot count as a mechanism of evolution.

I don't think that and I didn't say that.  I said that evolutionists cite bacterial resistance as an example of evidence (admittedly only one piece of evidence) that macroevolution has, in fact, happened on planet earth.  

The reason that loss cannot count as a mechanism for macroevolutionary change is quite simple and should be obvious.  If organisms are going become more complex, they must add functions not lose them.

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A DILEMMA FOR THE COMMITTED NATURALIST
A Hi-tech alien spaceship lands on earth ... DESIGNED.
A Hi-tech alien rotary motor found in a cell ... NOT DESIGNED.
http://afdave.wordpress.com/....ess.com

  
Russell



Posts: 1082
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,04:52   

Quote
The reason that loss cannot count as a mechanism for macroevolutionary change is quite simple and should be obvious.  If organisms are going become more complex, they must add functions not lose them
No. That's assuming all macroevolutionary change = becoming more complex. Not true. For instance, in the evolution of various kinds of parasites, losing the machinery to make stuff they can get from the host makes them more efficient.

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Must... not... scratch... mosquito bite.

  
Faid



Posts: 1143
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,05:26   

Well, since we're now discussing loss of functions again, can you answer my question, dave? This is the fifth time I'm asking...

Oh, about the Down Syndrome thing: I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that a fusion is responsible for its occurence? That's simply not true. For the vast majority of cases, failed disjunction (sp?) is the reason: and that's affected by things like the mother's age etc. Now, a quick glance at my old textbooks told me that there are in fact a few cases of DS attributed to chromosome fusions (Robertsonian translocations); but those are like, 3% of the total number.
Or is it that you are claiming that all fusions have such disastrous effects? That is also extremely incorrect. In all the people in the world today, more than 1 in 1000 has a kind of Robertsonian translocation. Most of those are "balanced" fusions, and their carriers have no phaenotypic problem. It has been suggested that these people might have an increased risk in giving birth to children with genetic defects (like Down), but recent studies propose that the risk is much smaller than previously thought.
As for other mammals: Robertsonian translocations of various kinds are quite common, especially in horses and cows, with only a minor drop in fertility as a result -which may pose problems for selective breeding, but none for the animal's survival. IIRC, there's also a kind of antelope where a RobT is so common and without problems, the population of the species has three distinct caryotypes, with 24, 25 and 26 chromosomes.But I'll cave to check that out.

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A look into DAVE HAWKINS' sense of honesty:

"The truth is that ALL mutations REDUCE information"

"...mutations can add information to a genome.  And remember, I have never said that this is not possible."

  
ericmurphy



Posts: 2460
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,05:42   

Quote (afdave @ May 29 2006,08:53)
The reason that loss cannot count as a mechanism for macroevolutionary change is quite simple and should be obvious.  If organisms are going become more complex, they must add functions not lose them.

Is the ability to metabolize nylon precursors a "loss of function," Dave, or a "gain of function"?

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2006 MVD award for most dogged defense of scientific sanity

"Atheism is a religion the same way NOT collecting stamps is a hobby." —Scott Adams

  
sir_toejam



Posts: 846
Joined: April 2005

(Permalink) Posted: May 29 2006,08:36   

Quote
but it also tells us how it should be...


I don't think you've actually read the thing very closely.

what about when the bible tells us it's right and proper to wipe out every man, woman, and child in a village?

is that how it should be?

stoning adulterers.

is that how it should be?

Dave -

do you pick and choose what you think "should be" from the bible, or do you accept it as is?

which are sins and which are not?

are the ten commandments in the KJV the ruleset you follow?  How do those agree or conflict with the new covenant?

I'd say for the satement of yours that i quoted to be correct, you'd have to be awfully choosy about what you ignore, even in the KJV, let alone any other bits of scripture that were left out of that version.

but then you are VERY good at ignoring the obvious.

What say you?

Quote
You should investigate the Bible for yourself.  Many a skeptic has done just that and become a believer.



and vice versa.

  
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