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Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,08:57    Quote No circular reasoning, no ducking arguments, no ad homs. Then why do you keep erecting straw men? Quote Meh - Hyperion, you are hopeless. I'm trying my best to follow your increasingly lunatic parsings of my posts, and coming up short. lunatic parsings?  Geez, all I did was assert that this is not a foreign policy webboard.  Am I not correct?  Forgive me for trying to keep things on topic.  By the way, didn't you just say something about ad homs? Quote Can evolution handle the free-market, non-government funded competition? See, here's the thing that I don't think you're getting about natural selection:  in order for it to operate, it requires that members of a population fail.  The whole point of the public school system, last time I checked, was to try to prevent that. But ####, I happen to notice that there are thousands of private schools out there, completely unfunded and unregulated by the government.  Why then do so many of them teach evolution?  I attended a private college, and I still have my freshman bio book sitting on my shelf.  Funny how our private college, with no government funds or interference, operating purely in the free market, still chose to use a textbook which uses the theory of evolution to completely tie together all of biology. Geez, if all you're going to do is call people names, litter your posts with logical fallacies, and then above all make assertions which simply make no sense, then why even post.  By the way, you still failed to tie this in with your original post about foreign policy.  Oh, by the way, have you ever actually taken a foreign policy course?  Have you ever taken a foreign policy course from a professor who had to cancel class for a week so he could fly to Japan to participate in an East Asian security summit, essentially sitting face to face with North Korean diplomats to talk about nuclear weapons? Oh, and how old are you?

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,09:19    Quote Classic, just classic. Hmm, can Natural Selection survive natural selection? According to Paley, here is us be lamenting in the near future: "Oh noes, our beloved theory of Natural Selection has just been undone by... natural selection, Natural Selection is dead!"  So why not apply your beloved, omnipotent, supercool mechanism to society, and watch it go to work? But noooooo, natural selection can build a rotary motor out of a bacterium's butt, make a Newton from sea scum and sunpower, craft a protein/gene/hormone cascade from colliding molecules, but to build a better society, for that we need politburo hacks. Well, if you want to spend your declining years in a tenement wearing a mustard-stained wife-beater, eating Kraft Velveeta slices in your underpants to the accompaniment of sirens, curses, and gunfire from outside your cracked window - go ahead. But I expect more from life. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,09:27    Quote Well, if you want to spend your declining years in a tenement wearing a mustard-stained wife-beater, eating Kraft Velveeta slices in your underpants to the accompaniment of sirens, curses, and gunfire from outside your cracked window - go ahead. I object.  I don't like mustard, so I highly doubt I will have mustard stains on my wife-beater.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,15:56    Quote Then why do you keep erecting straw men?   Nice to hear from you again, Hyperion. Let's make a deal: name one strawman of an evo/liberal/atheist position that I've erected, and we'll discuss it. But I'm a ghost, not a ghost-chaser, so you'll have to spoon-feed me a little. Quote lunatic parsings?  Geez, all I did was assert that this is not a foreign policy webboard.  Am I not correct?  No, Mr. Hyperion, that's not all. You also said: Quote The line between being disingenuous and outright lying is a very thin one, and you are getting very close. Then you followed with: Quote Ok, if you have a problem with the government of Israel, perhaps the place to vent such concerns would be on an Israeli board.  Neither of which has been explained, let alone justified. Quote See, here's the thing that I don't think you're getting about natural selection:  in order for it to operate, it requires that members of a population fail.  The whole point of the public school system, last time I checked, was to try to prevent that.  Which, of course, is precisely the problem. Without the possibility of failure, there is no incentive to improve. Quote But ####, I happen to notice that there are thousands of private schools out there, completely unfunded and unregulated by the government.  Why then do so many of them teach evolution?  I attended a private college, and I still have my freshman bio book sitting on my shelf.  Funny how our private college, with no government funds or interference, operating purely in the free market, still chose to use a textbook which uses the theory of evolution to completely tie together all of biology.  Super. So why are you so afraid of a little competition in public schools? Quote Geez, if all you're going to do is call people names, litter your posts with logical fallacies, and then above all make assertions which simply make no sense, then why even post.  What logical fallacies? Remember, your disagreement with my position does not constitute evidence against it. Quote By the way, you still failed to tie this in with your original post about foreign policy.    It's all about competition. Between culture, lifestyles, and ideas. Modern liberal society has done its best to throttle competition wherever it can, mainly by restricting freedom. What's particularly pernicious about this is that liberalism, by its very nature, hates the stable, the successful, the fruitful, the functional . So you guys reward the losers, the disturbed, the perpetually angry and clueless. And then bemoan the existence of disparities. Quote Oh, by the way, have you ever actually taken a foreign policy course?  Have you ever taken a foreign policy course from a professor who had to cancel class for a week so he could fly to Japan to participate in an East Asian security summit, essentially sitting face to face with North Korean diplomats to talk about nuclear weapons?  Expertise can sometimes blind one to the obvious. But your argument from authority is duly noted. Quote Oh, and how old are you?  Ageless. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,20:47    I suspect none of the "Doomsday" scenarios of social breakdown will happen. Theft over toil (as illustrated by Dawkins with his digger wasps) is only a good strategy till equilibrium is reached. The parasite cannot survive without the host. Repressive and exploitative regimes or anarchy could be considered extremes with an equilibrium where the general population is little enough affected that the simplest strategy is to endure. Considering "Darwinian" ideas such as selfishness versus altruism, competition for scarce resources by an increasing population, etc., could be appropriate here. Evolution in action; maybe this thread is not so far off the mark.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,21:07    PS I'm still convinced Bill is a chain-yanking parody.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 16 2005,22:35    Someone on PT posted this excerpt from "A Man for All Seasons" which has some relevance to Bill's ideas. William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law! Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that! Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ‘round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 17 2005,20:04    Quote Nice to hear from you again, Hyperion. Let's make a deal: name one strawman of an evo/liberal/atheist position that I've erected, and we'll discuss it. But I'm a ghost, not a ghost-chaser, so you'll have to spoon-feed me a little. Quote What's particularly pernicious about this is that liberalism, by its very nature, hates the stable, the successful, the fruitful, the functional If you're going to disavow strawmen, you shouldn't use one in the same post. Quote No, Mr. Hyperion, that's not all. You also said: Quote The line between being disingenuous and outright lying is a very thin one, and you are getting very close. Then you followed with: Quote Ok, if you have a problem with the government of Israel, perhaps the place to vent such concerns would be on an Israeli board. Neither of which has been explained, let alone justified. A:  You were being disingenuous in your original post by implying that you were discussing one country, when in reality you were discussing another. B:  I don't think that the second quote requires explanation.  If you have a problem with the government of Israel, clearly venting such concerns on an Israeli board might be more effective. Quote Super. So why are you so afraid of a little competition in public schools? Because public schools are not a free market.  Public schools are a reaction to a particular market failure called "common goods" or "public goods."  If you had ever taken classes on public policy, you would know this and not need to ask the question.  The reason why we have government-funded public schools is the same as the reason why we have a government-funded military for common defense.  Both are public goods, that is to say services which benefit the vast majority of the population.  The entire point of existence for a government is to deal with public goods of this nature, because the market will not provide them itself.  It is true that the market does provide education on a small scale in the form of public schools, just as the market provides martial defense in the form of private security, bodyguards, and separatist militias, but the market fails in both situations on the large scale.  Just as the guys who taught me CDT - bodyguard certification - are not going to defend this country from attack, private schools are not going to be able to effectively educated large numbers of students...and most importantly, such a failure winds up effecting the entire population as a whole. Quote What logical fallacies? Remember, your disagreement with my position does not constitute evidence against it. Several times on this thread I have pointed out specific instances, complete with quotes and a description of the specific fallacy. Quote  Expertise can sometimes blind one to the obvious. But your argument from authority is duly noted. Ok, an argument from authority is not a logical fallacy.  The logical fallacy that you are thinking of is the argument from inappropriate authority.  I was discussing my experiences in attaining a BA in political science, and my discussions with a specific professor who had attained a PhD in foreign policy and was widely regarded as an authority within that field by many organizations around the world.  That is not an argument from inappropriate authority, that is an argument from appropriate authority.  If all arguments from authority were fallacious, every single dissertation and thesis, including my own, would no longer require any citations whatsoever. As for expertise blinding one to the obvious...maybe you've got a point with that.  I went to go see an orthopedist about this injury to my achilles tendon, but maybe I should have gone to see someone less blinded by their own expertise. Oh, and that surgeon I had a few years ago who completely fixed a fairly serious medical condition...perhaps I should have just handed the scalpel to someone less blinded by their own expertise too. Man, all these experts using their expertise to help people, it just makes me sick.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,05:12    Quote If you're going to disavow strawmen, you shouldn't use one in the same post.     Except that this isn't a strawman. Liberal philosophy really is antipathetic to success - observe the mission statements of finer liberal fishwraps everywhere : "The job of a newspaper is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." Carry out an informal content analysis of just about any mainstream Hollyweird flick, tv show, or commercial: count the number of times that businessmen, corporate leaders, and suburbanites are portrayed as evil, incompetent, and impotent, then contrast with the number of positive portrayals. I have, and even bracing myself for the worst, was actually shocked at the pure hatred and propaganda emanating from our elites. Some commercials, for example, seem to serve no purpose other than ridiculing the BED. But please don't take my word for it; run your own trial. Quote A:  You were being disingenuous in your original post by implying that you were discussing one country, when in reality you were discussing another. B:  I don't think that the second quote requires explanation.  If you have a problem with the government of Israel, clearly venting such concerns on an Israeli board might be more effective.     Except I wasn't, and don't. Look, I don't know what you're implying here, but I happen to respect Israel, and while its government has occasionally overstepped itself, I think it's made the best out of a very bad situation. Alan Dershowitz himself would find my philosemitism embarrassing. Please can the insinuations and just tell me what you think my position is. Trust me, I won't be offended. Quote Because public schools are not a free market.  Public schools are a reaction to a particular market failure called "common goods" or "public goods."  If you had ever taken classes on public policy, you would know this and not need to ask the question.  The reason why we have government-funded public schools is the same as the reason why we have a government-funded military for common defense.  Both are public goods, that is to say services which benefit the vast majority of the population.  The entire point of existence for a government is to deal with public goods of this nature, because the market will not provide them itself.  It is true that the market does provide education on a small scale in the form of public schools, just as the market provides martial defense in the form of private security, bodyguards, and separatist militias, but the market fails in both situations on the large scale.  Just as the guys who taught me CDT - bodyguard certification - are not going to defend this country from attack, private schools are not going to be able to effectively educated large numbers of students...and most importantly, such a failure winds up effecting the entire population as a whole.  This isn't an unreasonable position. Problem is, this doesn't work in modern America. Look, modern public schools are zoos - I've talked to teachers of all races, and almost every single one has condemned the system in the harshest terms imaginable. I'm talking about good Christian black teachers erupting in 40 minute rants, telling me stories of being cussed at, punched out, having desks thrown at them, tires slashed, "students" threatening them outside their homes, Chinese and White teachers switching careers after a couple of months in the field, being molested and encouraged to cover it up by spineless principals, massive and routine grade fixing, assaults,rapes, and bullying covered up to make the schools look safer - you name it, it happens. Heck, look at the standardized test scores of home-schooled students compared to their peers: they lap the field. And why not? Homeschoolers don't have to worry about their classmates going on a shooting rampage, or the guy snorkling blow at the adjacent desk. Theory is nice; reality is better. Quote Quote   What logical fallacies? Remember, your disagreement with my position does not constitute evidence against it. Several times on this thread I have pointed out specific instances, complete with quotes and a description of the specific fallacy.  Then you should have no trouble pointing one out. Quote Ok, an argument from authority is not a logical fallacy.  The logical fallacy that you are thinking of is the argument from inappropriate authority.   No, arguing from authority is always fallacious; society trusts the opinions of experts because it assumes they can marshall the evidence to support their position. So show me the evidence. Quote Man, all these experts using their expertise to help people, it just makes me sick.   Ya, but the experts I turn to give me straight answers to my questions; they don't belittle me and accuse me of being a Nazi. But then, they don't have to. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,05:51    Quote Someone on PT posted this excerpt from "A Man for All Seasons" which has some relevance to Bill's ideas. William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law! Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? William Roper: Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that! Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ‘round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!  Pretty cool quote, but that's the problem with literature; it leads to differing interpretations. By the way, what do you, as a Frenchman, think of your nation's speech codes? I'm not looking for an argument; I'm just curious. And in your opinion, how do most French people feel? Surveys are nice, but I'd like to take advantage of your first-hand knowledge. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,09:27    Quote Except that this isn't a strawman. Liberal philosophy really is antipathetic to success - observe the mission statements of finer liberal fishwraps everywhere : "The job of a newspaper is to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable." No, see, it's a textbook definition of a strawman.  If you had simply said "liberals tend to abide by the belief in comforting the afflicted and helping the downtrodden" or some such, that wouldn't necessarily be a straw man, but saying that liberals hate success, that is a straw man.  You are putting up a ludicrous one-sided portrayal of a particular political philosophy solely to knock it down.  That is a straw man argument at its most basic. Quote This isn't an unreasonable position. Problem is, this doesn't work in modern America. Look, modern public schools are zoos - I've talked to teachers of all races, and almost every single one has condemned the system in the harshest terms imaginable. I'm talking about good Christian black teachers erupting in 40 minute rants, telling me stories of being cussed at, punched out, having desks thrown at them, tires slashed, "students" threatening them outside their homes, Chinese and White teachers switching careers after a couple of months in the field, being molested and encouraged to cover it up by spineless principals, massive and routine grade fixing, assaults,rapes, and bullying covered up to make the schools look safer - you name it, it happens. Heck, look at the standardized test scores of home-schooled students compared to their peers: they lap the field. And why not? Homeschoolers don't have to worry about their classmates going on a shooting rampage, or the guy snorkling blow at the adjacent desk. Theory is nice; reality is better. See, the problem here is that you're missing the most important part of the equation:  public schools must accept almost any student who enrolls.  So yes, public schools often do have to deal with emotionally unstable students, they often have to deal with violent students, they often have to deal with students who simply refuse to learn.  It is something that neither private schools nor homeschools have to deal with.  And yes, some homeschoolers do quite well on standardized tests, as do some public schoolers.  Your understanding of statistics is part of the problem here, though.  Current homeschoolers are not a representative sample of what we would see if all students were homeschooled; and more importantly, looking at the average scores in a public school test is misleading, you also need to look at standard deviation as well.  Much of the time, the top end of the scores at public, private, and home schools are actually very similar, it's just that the public schools also have to contend with the low end of the bell curve as well. Just out of curiosity, did you attend public schools?  I did, although I went to a private college.  While much of what you mention about public schools does occur, those are rare instances that are cherry picked from data, completely ignoring many of the good things about public schools. But my major point is that much of the "problems" that you see in public schools are issues that exist outside of the schools and would exist regardless of the existence of these schools.  The only reason why we see them in public schools is because they must accept almost all students, rather than being able to screen out students who misbehave, who disrupt class, who refuse to learn, etc. The thing is, these students about whom you are complaining aren't going to be homeschooled anyways.  If we abolished the public schools, their parents wouldn't be teaching them at home, and they wouldn't be going to private school.  They'd be out on the streets all day, getting into g_d-knows-what trouble.  At least with public schools, they have some minimal supervision and the opportunity to educate themselves if they want. Quote No, arguing from authority is always fallacious; society trusts the opinions of experts because it assumes they can marshall the evidence to support their position. So show me the evidence. No, arguing from authority is not always fallacious.  That you seem to believe this is disturbing.  It makes me question whether you actually comprehend the difference between appropriate authority and authorities who simply say things that you like to hear. Quote Ya, but the experts I turn to give me straight answers to my questions; they don't belittle me and accuse me of being a Nazi. But then, they don't have to. Ummm....you probably didn't mean for this statement to imply what it seems to be implying, but ah....

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,10:13    Quote that's the problem with literature; it leads to differing interpretations. Yes, for example the Bible in its many translations and editions, from Nicaea onwards, seems open to a wide variety of interpretations Quote as a Frenchman  not until I can apply for citizenship next year. Quote think of your nation's speech codes? If you mean the highly regulated media here, not much. Apart from the occasional gem, television is poor quality compared to BBC, newspapers are expensive and contain very little real critical analysis, tending to be deferential to politicians. Quote how do most French people feel? Where I live (Languedoc-Roussillon, though some now want to change the name to Septimania, the area's old Roman name, may not be representative of the rest of France. People are generally tolerant of immigrants, as there has been immigration from Italy (encouraged and financed by the French government) at the end of the 19th century, and  a considerable influx of Spanish refugees and exiles (Los Rojos) around the time of the Spanish Civil War, but Parisians are generally detested. Amazingly, people from the Champagne area are also loathed, because the Champenois formed a large contingent of the Albigensien crusaders, so cultural memory can be quite long. The exception to this tolerance is to recent immigrants from their former colonies in North Africa, mainly Algeria. Les Arabes are not welcomed and ghettos exist in major towns and cities, with the results you have seen. My French friends and neighbours are charming, formal in public, lively in private, parochial and chauvinistic. Most seem too concerned with their immediate situation to worry too much about world affairs, except when it involves their pride or their pocket. In brief, they are surprisingly normal, like people I knew back in England. But I wax lyrical... As time permits am happy to provide more info. The Cathars now.. the Holy Grail... the legend of Mary Magdalene.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,10:27    Quote No, see, it's a textbook definition of a strawman.  If you had simply said "liberals tend to abide by the belief in comforting the afflicted and helping the downtrodden" or some such, that wouldn't necessarily be a straw man, but saying that liberals hate success, that is a straw man.  O.K., O.K., liberal philosophy tends to encourage people to hate success, although some individuals may combat this trend in their personal lives. So, do you argue this essential point? I notice you said nothing about the rest of my argument. Quote See, the problem here is that you're missing the most important part of the equation:  public schools must accept almost any student who enrolls.  Yes, under current law they must, but not under Paleylaw. Besides, public schools have had these concerns for 150 years without this buffet of horrors; why have these problems exploded since the mid-60's? I thought the Great Society was supposed to improve society, not wreck it. Quote Current homeschoolers are not a representative sample of what we would see if all students were homeschooled; and more importantly, looking at the average scores in a public school test is misleading, you also need to look at standard deviation as well.  Much of the time, the top end of the scores at public, private, and home schools are actually very similar, it's just that the public schools also have to contend with the low end of the bell curve as well.  I'm not so sure this accounts for the entire difference, but I'll accept it for now. The point is, why should high achievers have to put up with people who don't want to learn? Even if the smart set gets sequestered in A.P. classes, they still have to face the other students when the bell rings. I just saw an article (no time to look it up now, but will later if pressed) about how asian kids are getting the #### whaled out of them by jealous thugs. The author tried to imply that the bullies were Italian and Jewish, but a check of school demographics indicated it was black kids. This is not unusual; what's unusual is if it gets reported. Quote Just out of curiosity, did you attend public schools?  I did, although I went to a private college.  While much of what you mention about public schools does occur, those are rare instances that are cherry picked from data, completely ignoring many of the good things about public schools  Try telling that to a modern public schoolteacher. Out of time; more later.... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

celtic_elk Posts: 11 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,10:41    GoP: If you're so inclined towards competition, why not let the immigrants in and see which culture survives the free market?  Are you afraid you'll lose?

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 18 2005,11:14    Quote O.K., O.K., liberal philosophy tends to encourage people to hate success That is a straw man argument.  I don't understand why you seem to be confused on this point.  STRAW MAN.  It is a logical fallacy.  When you attempt to set up an opposing argument so that you can knock it down, you are using a straw man argument. For instance, if I were to say "Conservatism is a label that closet racists use to make themselves look better," that would be a straw man.  It is a logical fallacy that contributes nothing to a debate aside from showing that one making the argument is an idiot. Quote I notice you said nothing about the rest of my argument. Yes, because it is a straw man argument.  It is prima facie illogical and needs no further explanation for why it is incorrect. Quote Yes, under current law they must, but not under Paleylaw. Besides, public schools have had these concerns for 150 years without this buffet of horrors; why have these problems exploded since the mid-60's? I thought the Great Society was supposed to improve society, not wreck it. Are you saying that school integration was the problem?  Because this is such a laughable explanation that I don't even know how to respond without being insulting. Quote I'm not so sure this accounts for the entire difference, but I'll accept it for now. The point is, why should high achievers have to put up with people who don't want to learn? Even if the smart set gets sequestered in A.P. classes, they still have to face the other students when the bell rings. I just saw an article (no time to look it up now, but will later if pressed) about how asian kids are getting the #### whaled out of them by jealous thugs. The author tried to imply that the bullies were Italian and Jewish, but a check of school demographics indicated it was black kids. This is not unusual; what's unusual is if it gets reported. When I was in high school, the only kids I ever got in fights with were White, so I don't know what you're trying to imply here other than your own lack of experience. What exactly is your proposal here?  That we go back to Jim Crow schools?

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,04:03    Quote That is a straw man argument.  I don't understand why you seem to be confused on this point.  STRAW MAN.  It is a logical fallacy.  When you attempt to set up an opposing argument so that you can knock it down, you are using a straw man argument.  I think you are the confused one here. If I said, "Darwinists believe that the living world was created strictly by chance", that would be a strawman, since the evolutionary model also includes natural selection. But if I said, "The basic tenets of Darwinism encourage a hatred toward Christianity", then I would be making an empirical argument, which could then be tested and potentially falsified. Here is my problem with liberalism: it encourages its adherents to loathe successful people. This may very well be false, but you can only demonstrate this by appealing to sensory evidence. Which you haven't done. Quote When I was in high school, the only kids I ever got in fights with were White, so I don't know what you're trying to imply here other than your own lack of experience. What exactly is your proposal here?  That we go back to Jim Crow schools?  Ahhhh....nothing like a little cognitive dissonance to flush you out. You just hate stories about minority groups whaling on each other, don't you? Sorta refutes the liberal hypothesis that only whitey can hate.  To address your point, no, I don't pine for the return of Jim Crow laws. Or race laws of any kind. If people of different ethnic groups wish to live, work, and love together, it ain't any of my nor the government's business. So why did I bring up the story in the first place? Three reasons:  1)  It's a concrete example of how our media distorts reality to carry out its agenda (remember, the weasel who wrote this piece tried to imply that the thugs attacking the asian kinds were Italian and Jewish, rather than hispanic or black, which would reflect the school's demographics much better. This is evil.).  2) It shows one of the fruits of hating the successful, which is physical violence directed towards high achievers. Believe me, there are plenty of articles out there just like the one above.  3) Asian academic and economic performance demonstrate that minorities can be successful in majority-white nations if they just apply themselves. After all, if the Man is so powerful, then why is he so easily bested by Suzie Hu and her ilk? Liberals, please explain. celtic-elk Wrote: Quote GoP: If you're so inclined towards competition, why not let the immigrants in and see which culture survives the free market?  Are you afraid you'll lose?  No, I'm afraid they'll lose, and then the government will gallop in to level the playing field. You know, sorta like what we've seen, and are seeing, in France, the U.K., and America.  I've got to go for now, but I leave you with a little test:  1) Copy n' Paste the Paleyplan and log on to the White Nationalist or Neo-nazi group of your choice (Note: the website must explicitly identify itself as such). Talley the responses, scoring a +1 for a positive reply, -1 for a negative reply  2) Then copy n' paste a pro-evo, anti-ID argument, and do the same.  3) Compare the scores. Which position was treated with more respect? Report back with your findings. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,06:00    Quote No, arguing from authority is not always fallacious.  That you seem to believe this is disturbing.  It makes me question whether you actually comprehend the difference between appropriate authority and authorities who simply say things that you like to hear.  I'm sorry, but if you were right I would agree with you.  An argument's quality has nothing to do with how many experts line up behind it; if it did, civilisation could never progress. True, an expert is more likely to know what she's talking about - that is why we weight her opinion more heavily than Joe Sixpack's. At some point, however, the expert must be willing to support that opinion with evidence gleaned from scholarship. If she cannot or will not do so, her opinion means zip. Nada. Nuttin'. And trotting out credentials in lieu of facts is often a signal that said expert is bluffing. Prove me wrong, Hyperion, prove me wrong. Quote Are you saying that school integration was the problem?  Because this is such a laughable explanation that I don't even know how to respond without being insulting.  Not to be rude, but are you really from the United States? You certainly don't seem very conversant with our history. The Great Society program postdated Brown V Board of Education by at least six years. My public shool certainly taught this. Boy, did it ever. Alan Fox said:   Quote Where I live (Languedoc-Roussillon, though some now want to change the name to Septimania, the area's old Roman name, may not be representative of the rest of France. People are generally tolerant of immigrants, as there has been immigration from Italy (encouraged and financed by the French government) at the end of the 19th century, and  a considerable influx of Spanish refugees and exiles (Los Rojos) around the time of the Spanish Civil War, but Parisians are generally detested. Amazingly, people from the Champagne area are also loathed, because the Champenois formed a large contingent of the Albigensien crusaders, so cultural memory can be quite long. The exception to this tolerance is to recent immigrants from their former colonies in North Africa, mainly Algeria. Les Arabes are not welcomed and ghettos exist in major towns and cities, with the results you have seen.   Thanks for the info; you gave me a slice-of-life I couldn't obtain anywhere else. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,06:57    I had a lengthy reply to Cogzoid that didn't get through. I'll try again later. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,08:20    Quote I think you are the confused one here. If I said, "Darwinists believe that the living world was created strictly by chance", that would be a strawman, since the evolutionary model also includes natural selection. But if I said, "The basic tenets of Darwinism encourage a hatred toward Christianity", then I would be making an empirical argument, which could then be tested and potentially falsified. No, that's still a straw man argument.  All you're doing is saying that since you believe that to be the other side's argument, it must not be a straw man.  That doesn't change anything, actually.  You're still stating your opposition's side of a debate and then knocking it down.  That's a straw man.  Note that I am quoting your position, and then responding, that is how one avoids straw men. Quote 1)  It's a concrete example of how our media distorts reality to carry out its agenda (remember, the weasel who wrote this piece tried to imply that the thugs attacking the asian kinds were Italian and Jewish, rather than hispanic or black, which would reflect the school's demographics much better. This is evil.). No, you showed how one article, which you didn't even quote or cite, made a dumb reference to the ethnic identities of some students.  All that reflects is that either the author of that mysterious article was a moron, which is a definite possibility, or that you might not be remembering the article correctly. Quote 2) It shows one of the fruits of hating the successful, which is physical violence directed towards high achievers. Believe me, there are plenty of articles out there just like the one above. Oh, I don't doubt that some people will use physical violence as a means of acting out their insecurities.  That high school kids tend to do so is also not really news.  I'm just not sure exactly what your point is, other than that high school kids will bully other kids, which is about as novel an insight as "the Pope is Catholic" or "bears shit in the woods." Quote 3) Asian academic and economic performance demonstrate that minorities can be successful in majority-white nations if they just apply themselves. After all, if the Man is so powerful, then why is he so easily bested by Suzie Hu and her ilk? Liberals, please explain. Yes, and I also know many Black students who are academically successful.  I don't know exactly what your point here is, other than trying to say that the success of some minorities proves that there is no discrimination. But let's take a step back for a second.  Your assertion is that Asians apply themselves and as a group wil succeed.  Having read the history of West Coast immigration, the building of the railroads, etc etc, how do you account for the fact that in the not-too-distant past, Asians were viewed in the West the same way that African Americans are viewed in the South? Quote An argument's quality has nothing to do with how many experts line up behind it; if it did, civilisation could never progress. True, an expert is more likely to know what she's talking about - that is why we weight her opinion more heavily than Joe Sixpack's. At some point, however, the expert must be willing to support that opinion with evidence gleaned from scholarship. If she cannot or will not do so, her opinion means zip. Nada. Nuttin'. And trotting out credentials in lieu of facts is often a signal that said expert is bluffing. Prove me wrong, Hyperion, prove me wrong. Oh, I'm not saying that the credentials of an expert automatically make an argument.  Not at all.  What I am saying is that an argument from authority is not prima facie fallacious.  The argument should still stand or fall on its merits, but it is not fallacious merely because it is an argument from authority.   Quote Not to be rude, but are you really from the United States? You certainly don't seem very conversant with our history. The Great Society program postdated Brown V Board of Education by at least six years. My public shool certainly taught this. Boy, did it ever. Yes, but apparently you weren't paying attention when they did.  Brown was decided in 1954, this is true, but actual desegregation took well over a decade to be put into effect.  In Virginia, where I went to public schools, the school system did not desegregate until the early 70s, which post-dates the Great Society.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,11:09    Quote Thanks for the info; you gave me a slice-of-life I couldn't obtain anywhere else. No problem. Now what about some quid pro quo. A bit of background from you may shake my conviction that you are parodying.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,11:23    Wikipedia suggests the logical fallacy of the "straw man" is committed if one does the following Quote 1)Present the opponent's argument in weakened form, refute it, and pretend that the original has been refuted. 2)Present a misrepresentation of the opponent's position, refute it, and pretend that the opponent's actual position has been refuted. 3)Present someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, refute that person's arguments, and pretend that every upholder of that position, and thus the position itself, has been defeated. 4)Invent a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group that the speaker is critical of. So I think Hyperion needs to substitute "misreprestenting " or mis-stating" for "stating" in Quote You're still stating your opposition's side of a debate and then knocking it down.

Alan Fox Posts: 1556 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 19 2005,11:29    Dr Elderberry, where's that spellcheck button? S/B "misrepresents"

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2005,11:08    OK, let's hope I can get the message through this time.... Quote You're still stating your opposition's side of a debate and then knocking it down.  That's a straw man.  Note that I am quoting your position, and then responding, that is how one avoids straw men.  So what are the "real" implications of liberalism? Be careful, you're speaking to a recovered one. Quote No, you showed how one article, which you didn't even quote or cite, made a dumb reference to the ethnic identities of some students.  All that reflects is that either the author of that mysterious article was a moron, which is a definite possibility, or that you might not be remembering the article correctly.  If I do cite it and show where the weaseling occurs, will you admit the possibility of deliberate slander? If not, what's the purpose of citing it? Quote Yes, and I also know many Black students who are academically successful.  I don't know exactly what your point here is, other than trying to say that the success of some minorities proves that there is no discrimination.  Yeah, and I once met a woman who was 6'5". Shall I conclude that women are much taller than men on average? I don't doubt the existence of excellent black students, but you need to focus on general trends. As a group, Asians are dramatically more successful than African-Americans or mestizos, and substantially more successful than whites. How does the liberal model explain this, Hyperion? I mean, given their extensive history of discrimination, they should be below white kids in academic achievement, shouldn't they? By the way, hapas, Jews, and East Indians also kick ass. How is this possible? Quote Oh, I don't doubt that some people will use physical violence as a means of acting out their insecurities.  That high school kids tend to do so is also not really news.  I'm just not sure exactly what your point is, other than that high school kids will bully other kids, which is about as novel an insight as "the Pope is Catholic" or "bears shit in the woods."  No, I'm afraid the incidents go way beyond mere bullying. But if you agree to my conditions, you'll find out soon enough. Quote But let's take a step back for a second.  Your assertion is that Asians apply themselves and as a group wil succeed.  Having read the history of West Coast immigration, the building of the railroads, etc etc, how do you account for the fact that in the not-too-distant past, Asians were viewed in the West the same way that African Americans are viewed in the South?  Not really. Oh, I'm sure they were despised all right, but few bigots applied the same stereotypes to both groups. I will be happy to prove this if you wish. Quote Quote   Not to be rude, but are you really from the United States? You certainly don't seem very conversant with our history. The Great Society program postdated Brown V Board of Education by at least six years. My public shool certainly taught this. Boy, did it ever. Yes, but apparently you weren't paying attention when they did.  Brown was decided in 1954, this is true, but actual desegregation took well over a decade to be put into effect.  In Virginia, where I went to public schools, the school system did not desegregate until the early 70s, which post-dates the Great Society.  So why link the two. Most historians don't. Here's a second bite at the source I quoted earlier: Quote But when historians refer to the Great Society, they usually mean the remarkable array of initiatives launched between 1964 and 1967 designed to expand the social welfare system and eliminate poverty.  Please notice the timeline. And no integration, I see. Let's look at LBJ's scholastic policies, shall we? Quote It shattered a long-standing political taboo by providing significant federal aid to public education. The Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 offered assistance to underfunded public school districts throughout the country; the Higher Education Act of the same year provided aid to needy college and university students.  Still no integration policy. Hmmmm... maybe another source will do the trick. Quote 1954   May 17 The Supreme Court rules on the landmark case Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka, Kans., unanimously agreeing that segregation in public schools is unconstitutional. The ruling paves the way for large-scale desegregation. The decision overturns the 1896 Plessy v. Ferguson ruling that sanctioned "separate but equal" segregation of the races, ruling that "separate educational facilities are inherently unequal." It is a victory for NAACP attorney Thurgood Marshall, who will later return to the Supreme Court as the nation's first black justice.    Yep. Just as I said. Let's pick up the second mention of integration (ignoring the incident at Little Rock): Quote 1971 April 20 The Supreme Court, in Swann v. Charlotte-Mecklenburg Board of Education, upholds busing as a legitimate means for achieving integration of public schools. Although largely unwelcome (and sometimes violently opposed) in local school districts, court-ordered busing plans in cities such as Charlotte, Boston, and Denver continue until the late 1990s.  What happened to all that mid-sixties Great Society immigration policy, Hyperion? No one seems to have noticed it but you.  Apology accepted. Alan Fox wrote: Quote Now what about some quid pro quo. A bit of background from you may shake my conviction that you are parodying.  Maybe tomorrow..... -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 20 2005,13:31    Quote So what are the "real" implications of liberalism? Be careful, you're speaking to a recovered one. I truly, honestly, do not care.  Debating the "implications" of a political philosophy is pointless mental masturbation.  One debates the implication of actual policy decisions, not some abstract philosophy.  I'm more interested in your implications, personally. Quote If I do cite it and show where the weaseling occurs, will you admit the possibility of deliberate slander? If not, what's the purpose of citing it? If if if.  I honestly don't care about your piddly little article.  You said about three sentences from it, so I honestly have no idea what it would show.  Most likely, it would show that the author is an idiot, but since you haven't cited it, and therefore I haven't read it, I really have no idea what my reaction might be.  Are you too stupid or too immature to comprehend the utter futility of asking hypothetical questions about an unknown article written by an unknown author in some unknown source on some subject that might or might not be vaguely related to your point? Geez. Quote As a group, Asians are dramatically more successful than African-Americans or mestizos, and substantially more successful than whites. How does the liberal model explain this, Hyperion? I mean, given their extensive history of discrimination, they should be below white kids in academic achievement, shouldn't they? By the way, hapas, Jews, and East Indians also kick ass. How is this possible? Well, I suppose if you reduce a widespread grouping of diverse social issues down to a one paragraph statement, you can make just about any assertion.  I honestly don't know why one group might have lower scores than any other group, and I'm not going to make a broad statement about something that is quite a bit more complicated than you're making it out to be.  If I had to make a guess, I'd go with luck and social trends.  I certainly wouldn't assert that  skin pigmentation is linked to intelligence...I mean, getting a tan on the beach doesn't affect one's intelligence.  What is your explanation? Quote No, I'm afraid the incidents go way beyond mere bullying. But if you agree to my conditions, you'll find out soon enough. Huh?  What conditions?  You haven't said anything about any conditions, and no, I'm not going to stipulate to anything stupid like this.  I'm getting pretty damned tired of your disingenuous arguments where you coyly hint at one position, then pretend you were really saying something else. Quote Not really. Oh, I'm sure they were despised all right, but few bigots applied the same stereotypes to both groups. I will be happy to prove this if you wish. Of course they applied different stereotypes.  That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that both groups were discriminated against, so your assertion that Asians somehow assimilated easier is bull.  That being said, the discrimination against Asians was not as bad as what African Americans faced, certainly lynching was not nearly as widespread, and they weren't forced to go to separate, sub-par, underfunded schools. Quote So why link the two. Most historians don't. Ummm, you were the one who brought up minority test scores and the Great Society.  Why do you continue to assert something, and then when people respond, say something along the lines of "why are you bringing this up?" Quote What happened to all that mid-sixties Great Society immigration policy, Hyperion? No one seems to have noticed it but you. Again, huh?  You mentioned minority test scores and school violence and asserted that much of it was a result of the Great Society.  I asserted that this seemed like flawed logic given that at the time of the Great Society, schools were still not even fully integrated. Really, honestly, do you suffer from some sort of mental illness?  Or are you simply an immature simpleton who just likes to try to irritate people?  If you think that you are somehow impressing anyone by knocking down straw men and playing word games, you're not. If you actually have something to contribute to a discussion, one that you started, incidentally, then by all means, go ahead.  If all you wish to do is display your own lack of maturity, please go away.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2005,06:10    Quote If if if.  I honestly don't care about your piddly little article.  You said about three sentences from it, so I honestly have no idea what it would show.  Most likely, it would show that the author is an idiot, but since you haven't cited it, and therefore I haven't read it, I really have no idea what my reaction might be.  Yeah, I'll bet you don't care. But I do. No student, be they black, white, asian, or other, should have to put up with what these kids do. But I'm sure the thugs have high self-esteem, and isn't that what it's all about? Quote Huh?  What conditions?  You haven't said anything about any conditions, and no, I'm not going to stipulate to anything stupid like this.  I'm getting pretty damned tired of your disingenuous arguments where you coyly hint at one position, then pretend you were really saying something else.  Whatever. Support your position, if you have one. But we both know you don't, so you can quit bluffing. Quote Really, honestly, do you suffer from some sort of mental illness?  Or are you simply an immature simpleton who just likes to try to irritate people?    Why should I choose from only one? Can't I be a little of both? Quote If you think that you are somehow impressing anyone by knocking down straw men and playing word games, you're not.  What word games? Please be clear on this. Quote If I had to make a guess, I'd go with luck and social trends.  I certainly wouldn't assert that  skin pigmentation is linked to intelligence...I mean, getting a tan on the beach doesn't affect one's intelligence.  What is your explanation?  What does skin color have to do with culture? You do realise that I have explicitly avoided a genetic argument, don't you, Hyperion? Why can't you see this simple little fact? -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

Hyperion Posts: 31 Joined: June 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2005,09:30    Quote Yeah, I'll bet you don't care. But I do. No student, be they black, white, asian, or other, should have to put up with what these kids do. But I'm sure the thugs have high self-esteem, and isn't that what it's all about? Ok, but since you're still just referring to some article that I still haven't read, I can't really form an opinion on it, now can I? Quote Whatever. Support your position, if you have one. But we both know you don't, so you can quit bluffing. At this point, I'm not sure what your position is, and you started the thread. Quote What does skin color have to do with culture? You do realise that I have explicitly avoided a genetic argument, don't you, Hyperion? Why can't you see this simple little fact? This is what I mean about being disingenuous.  You discussed the different scores of various racial groups.  When I say that clearly skin color can't be the reason, you then accuse me of bringing it up.  Brilliant. If you're arguing culture, though, you've got some problems.  For starters, there is no one single "Black" culture, any more than there is one single "Asian" culture, or one single "Jewish" culture, or one single "hispanic culture."  Now, at the individual level, I can certainly see how the culture in which one is raised can affect one's academic performance, but the problem is that culture really isn't tied so well with race.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 21 2005,12:10    Quote Ok, but since you're still just referring to some article that I still haven't read, I can't really form an opinion on it, now can I?  Nice dodge. Quote This is what I mean about being disingenuous.  You discussed the different scores of various racial groups.  When I say that clearly skin color can't be the reason, you then accuse me of bringing it up.  Brilliant. If you're arguing culture, though, you've got some problems.  For starters, there is no one single "Black" culture, any more than there is one single "Asian" culture, or one single "Jewish" culture, or one single "hispanic culture."  Now, at the individual level, I can certainly see how the culture in which one is raised can affect one's academic performance, but the problem is that culture really isn't tied so well with race.  Unsupported assertion. And a big surprise, no doubt, to the many black and Jewish people who seem to think otherwise.   I guess I should celebrate the fact that you're starting to recognize and respond to my argument, as opposed to the <cough> strawmen you've been thrashing. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2005,05:06    As someone who has read this thread from the beginning and largely stayed out of it, I'm throwing a flag on GoP right here and now. The article, until presented is a non-argument and it is impossible to dodge a non-argument. As for straw men, I've only seen them come from one side (GoP).  How does one create a straw man by debunking a straw man argument?  I.e. GoP you create a straw man and Hyperion debunks it, you are the guilty party, not Hyperion.

The Ghost of Paley Posts: 1703 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2005,06:00    Quote The article, until presented is a non-argument and it is impossible to dodge a non-argument.  If you have read the thread from beginning to end, then how did you miss my three-part essay detailing my argument, consisting of: 1) Cash bribes to encourage emigration of people who hate our guts 2) Heavy immigration from Europe, Israel, and Northeast Asian countries to replace our departing malcontents 3) New legislation repealing all race laws 4) Letting the resulting freedom of association weed out the bad cultures amongst our remaining malcontents  In addition, I proposed a test that anyone can do to verify that Hyperion's implications were false. Since you read the thread, surely I won't have to point out where, will I? And nobody took me up on this test.....hmmmm....veddy curious.   Now you may think my plan is naive, fascist, counterproductive, whatever; that's your right. But direct your criticisms to the real model, not to Hyperion's paranoid misrepresentations of it. But you won't, and it's for the same reason that Hyperion didn't - the model is sound, rational, sane, and chock full of supporting evidence guaranteeing its success. Which explains the existence of speech codes. Can't let anyone see the posterior of General Butt-Nekkid. -------------- Dey can't 'andle my riddim.

celtic_elk Posts: 11 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Nov. 22 2005,08:30    "Ghost of Paley" wrote: Quote   GoP: If you're so inclined towards competition, why not let the immigrants in and see which culture survives the free market?  Are you afraid you'll lose? No, I'm afraid they'll lose, and then the government will gallop in to level the playing field. You know, sorta like what we've seen, and are seeing, in France, the U.K., and America. Reply: So your solution to prevent government intervention is...government intervention?  How exactly is that an improvement, based on your let-competition-rule philosophy?

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