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hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,22:01    Assassinator said: "Why can't we demand certain things, have you ever heard about the principle of equal trade?" The third time's a charm: 2Ki 1:10  And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. 2Ki 1:11  Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly. 2Ki 1:12  And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty. 2Ki 1:13 ¶ And he sent again a captain of the third fifty with his fifty. And the third captain of fifty went up, and came and fell on his knees before Elijah, and besought him, and said unto him, O man of God, I pray thee, let my life, and the life of these fifty thy servants, be precious in thy sight. Edit/add: More global warming: Rev 20:9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,23:14    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 13 2008,23:02) Ian, that's actually a much more serious topic.  I prefer to think of the analogy of God's foreknowledge as knowledge of all possible outcomes.  From our perspective it would naturally be assumed that God had to know we'd screw up but maybe we had the chance not to screw up and we missed it.  And maybe there are multiple chances for us not to screw up and God keeps presenting us with these chances.  Again, we're placing assumptions on God's knowledge and his intentions which is problematic from the start. So that begs the question, do we actually have free will?  If God can see all possible outcomes does that mean the future is pre-determined?  Using this analogy, we still have free will even if all our possible actions can be know or anticipated by God.  Think of it as a game of chess.  It's theoretically possible, while not currently technically possible, to predict all possible moves from any position.  Just the knowing doesn't restrict you from making those moves especially when it's not you who knows.  So I as an observer can see your moves and see where you going even if you don't know but you are still perfectly free to make any move you want.  At least that's how I see it, does that address your point?  Not convince you, mind you, but address it. Sure, god could well have knowledge of all possible outcomes. However that is not omniscience, because he doesn't know the right answer. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, it just doesn't work that way. I'd be happy to concede that a god who would know all possible outcomes, but was not omniscient would allow for free will, and could also (maybe, if I'm in a good mood) not be a huge douchebag at the same time. But that is not the god of the bible, who knows everything, which in itself is an aspect of being perfect. Therefore I'm willing to accept that an imperfect god is an answer to those issues. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 13 2008,23:17    Quote (hereoisreal @ Mar. 14 2008,00:23) Ian said: "Clearly it's to kill us all." Ian, clearly that is not one of God's priorities. In seventy weeks: 1. finish the transgression 2. make an end of sins 3. make reconciliation for iniquity 4.bring in everlasting righteousness 5.seal up the vision and prophecy 6.anoint the most Holy Zero How is that clear? He obviously likes suffering, death, plauge, torture, genocide and famine, and wants them to happen to us or he would stop them. Either god is imperfect and wants to help us, but can't, or he could help us, and just doesn't want to, therefore displaying contempt for us. Or he doesn't exist, of course, which is what I believe. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,07:53    Ian, I'm not sure that I would reach the same conclusion but it may be a technicality.  If God knows all possible answers including the right answer how is that different?  Additionally, as in the chess analogy, if God knows which move we're going to make how does that infringe upon our free will to make that move?  We still make a move based upon the moment and we have no foreknowledge of the move we "have" to make so from our perspective we have free will. I would say that the "perfect" label is very soft.  How can we say that God is perfect when we have no other God to compare him to.  Also, we're evaluating God from a strictly human perspective and that is skewed by our desires and priorities and not objective.  BTW, this is just my reasoning and not theologically based. Assassinator, you can certainly ask anything you want but you have no reason to assume or except an answer.  You've just placed expectations on God that are unreasonable or at the least unresolved.  If it comes down to a matter of equality then the answer is simple, we are not on equal footing with God. Reed, I read the Bible in exactly the same way.  IMO, it's a blueprint for a suggested life to lead.  In many ways if you detour from this blueprint you will get burned in the real sense and not just the spiritual sense. No, getzal, it's simpler to say that we don't know why he doesn't answer and not make any assumptions beyond that.

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,09:14    Ian, you have, in my opinion, created a false dilemma rooted, again in my opinion,in  an incorrect assumption about the nature God. If by “omnibenevolent” you mean that God loves everyone--well the scripture is not there to support such a pleasant idea. “Jacob I loved,” we are told, “but Esau I hated.” Furthermore, God was manifestly unbenevolent  to the Egyptians and to the various races upon whom he instructed Joshua’s army to commit genocide. God, according to scripture in toto, does not love the people he sends to eternal damnation, he hates them.  You can argue if “hate” means what we mean by hate—but you cannot argue that it is a feeling attributed to God that is in contrast to love—even if it just the absence thereof.  In other words, when you wrote:     Quote I fail to understand how a being that loves us would knowingly condemn us to eternal punnishment. I would say—that’s good, because he does no such thing. The very concept is, in fact, unthinkable and would render the notion of love meaningless. As for free will—the only problem that exists for Christian theology is the same one as exists for secular philosophy:  what the hell is it? No surprise, I like, at least to first order, the free will model proposed by the reformed theologians—that our will is free (no external forces, no puppet master) and yet self-determined—every single choice is determined by our desires—we choose to do exactly what we want to do most at any given instance. Thus God does not force us into decisions, but he can change our desires (a so-called new heart) which then will affect our decisions. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,10:22    Quote I would say that the "perfect" label is very soft.  How can we say that God is perfect when we have no other God to compare him to.  Also, we're evaluating God from a strictly human perspective and that is skewed by our desires and priorities and not objective. Oooo we got a whóle lot of God's to compare with your God, craploads actually! Even compared to humans He's completly awfull, at least WE are trying to do something about shit. (note: not necceseraly meaning global warming with that) Quote Assassinator, you can certainly ask anything you want but you have no reason to assume or except an answer.  You've just placed expectations on God that are unreasonable or at the least unresolved.  If it comes down to a matter of equality then the answer is simple, we are not on equal footing with God. Why not? Apperantly he has a WHOLE lot of power, what's unreasonable about asking some kind of refference? Now if I would've asked something completly rubbish, something wich is really bullcrap, but no I'm asking basic and fundamental questions. Not even an explanation about why they would be too much to answer, now how's that not arrogant? Besides, why would God be better and more worth then me? Who does God think he is?

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,14:49    umm, just the Creator of the Universe, Reality and all of  Existence.  Not that much when you look at it from your self-important position, huh? please, Google pride.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,15:07    Quote umm, just the Creator of the Universe, Reality and all of  Existence. O really? Says who? Haven't seen anything wich points in that direction, and we all know that the Bible isn't a biology/physics/chemistry book.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,15:57    Well then how can you possibly demand answers from something that you don't believe exists.  Can't have it both ways.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,16:41    That's not what I sad, you bind certain properties to the word "God" wich I doubt about, since there is nothing that points that way. Remember that the word "God" is kind of hollow by itself, different people give different meaning's (millions of them). Besides, if that being indeed created everything, we don't have to beleive in it. Such a being either exists, or it doesn't exist and it does not matter what your personal opinion is about it. If it created the universe, it did that for all of us, it's the same for all of us. We live in the same universe, on the same earth, it didn't get into existance on a different way for you then for me. Now that would be silly, wouldn't it?

qetzal Posts: 311 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,17:28    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 14 2008,07:53) No, getzal, it's simpler to say that we don't know why he doesn't answer and not make any assumptions beyond that. That's not what you said earlier.       Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,07:37) In fact there's an entire Book to the point that you're not going to know why because you're incapable of understanding it.       Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 12 2008,23:20) no God doesn't tell Job that I'm bigger than you, he says I can't tell you because you just wouldn't understand.  it is beyond human capacity. "God doesn't answer because we aren't capable of understanding" is not equivalent to "We don't know why God doesn't answer." (Begging the question of God's existence to begin with.) P.S. It's "qetzal" - with a "q" not a "g." As in "qetzalcoatl" (or "quetzalcoatl" if you prefer).

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,17:52    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 14 2008,20:49) umm, just the Creator of the Universe, Reality and all of  Existence.  Not that much when you look at it from your self-important position, huh? please, Google pride. Assuming that's true, then he isn't worthy of our praise because of how much he hates us. Sure, it's impressive that he made everything, but why did he have to make it suck for his supposed "favoured" race? I mean, if we're the ones he supposedly loves the most, why do we die on a regular basis? In fact, why the hell are we even alive? Assuming god is real and loves us  all (aside from the concept of sin, god supposedly loves all of us until we sin at the very least, unless Heddle has some weird kind of theology that I've never seen before) why do we get the chance to fail? I fail to grasp why he forces us to live, most likely in poverty and famine, or at least with little in the way of amenities unless you're lucky enough to be born into a developed country. Why not just, put us in heaven? Why go through a process whereby a great deal will suffer in this life, and then a large section of the world will also suffer in hell afterwards. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,18:36    Quote (Assassinator @ Mar. 14 2008,16:41) That's not what I sad, you bind certain properties to the word "God" wich I doubt about, since there is nothing that points that way. Remember that the word "God" is kind of hollow by itself, different people give different meaning's (millions of them). Besides, if that being indeed created everything, we don't have to beleive in it. Such a being either exists, or it doesn't exist and it does not matter what your personal opinion is about it. If it created the universe, it did that for all of us, it's the same for all of us. We live in the same universe, on the same earth, it didn't get into existance on a different way for you then for me. Now that would be silly, wouldn't it? so you believe in something just not what I believe in?

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,18:39    Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 14 2008,17:52) Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 14 2008,20:49) umm, just the Creator of the Universe, Reality and all of  Existence.  Not that much when you look at it from your self-important position, huh? please, Google pride. Assuming that's true, then he isn't worthy of our praise because of how much he hates us. Sure, it's impressive that he made everything, but why did he have to make it suck for his supposed "favoured" race? I mean, if we're the ones he supposedly loves the most, why do we die on a regular basis? In fact, why the hell are we even alive? Assuming god is real and loves us  all (aside from the concept of sin, god supposedly loves all of us until we sin at the very least, unless Heddle has some weird kind of theology that I've never seen before) why do we get the chance to fail? I fail to grasp why he forces us to live, most likely in poverty and famine, or at least with little in the way of amenities unless you're lucky enough to be born into a developed country. Why not just, put us in heaven? Why go through a process whereby a great deal will suffer in this life, and then a large section of the world will also suffer in hell afterwards. who says it sucks? I certainly don't.  Opinion.

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,18:45    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 14 2008,05:53) Reed, I read the Bible in exactly the same way.  IMO, it's a blueprint for a suggested life to lead.  In many ways if you detour from this blueprint you will get burned in the real sense and not just the spiritual sense. Funny that you "agree" but completely ignore the content of the post, and fail to answer any of the interesting questions: 1) If Gods plan is incomprehensible, how is that different (for us) from a universe that is just incomprehensible without God ? How do you distinguish between these two options ? 2) If he is really incomprehensible, why would you believe the bible was really his word ? 3) What objective criteria allows you to decide God is the God of the bible and not the daemon sultan Azathoth ? And since the bible is apparently a "blueprint for a suggested life to lead" here's a bonus question: 4) Must adulterers, homosexuals and witches be put to death ? If you don't agree with this, how is the bible a blueprint for a suggested life to lead ?  If only some parts are a blueprint, what are the other parts ? How do you decide which parts are the blueprint, and which aren't ?

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,19:55    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 15 2008,00:39) Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 14 2008,17:52) Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 14 2008,20:49) umm, just the Creator of the Universe, Reality and all of  Existence.  Not that much when you look at it from your self-important position, huh? please, Google pride. Assuming that's true, then he isn't worthy of our praise because of how much he hates us. Sure, it's impressive that he made everything, but why did he have to make it suck for his supposed "favoured" race? I mean, if we're the ones he supposedly loves the most, why do we die on a regular basis? In fact, why the hell are we even alive? Assuming god is real and loves us  all (aside from the concept of sin, god supposedly loves all of us until we sin at the very least, unless Heddle has some weird kind of theology that I've never seen before) why do we get the chance to fail? I fail to grasp why he forces us to live, most likely in poverty and famine, or at least with little in the way of amenities unless you're lucky enough to be born into a developed country. Why not just, put us in heaven? Why go through a process whereby a great deal will suffer in this life, and then a large section of the world will also suffer in hell afterwards. who says it sucks? I certainly don't.  Opinion. Yes, YOUR life is good. Well done, you were lucky. Now answer what I actually wrote. If you need help, which you seem to, what I WROTE was that life on the whole sucks for the human race, with the poverty, famine, disease etc. I wasn't saying that everyone's life sucked, indeed, I pointed out that some people have good lives. Therefore it is OT opinion, you're either building a strawman, or being stupid. Take your pick. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 14 2008,20:09    Quote so you believe in something just not what I believe in? It does not matter what you beleive in, the earth came into existance the same way for you as it did for me. That has nothing to do with opinions, either a 'supreme' being (wich you call "God") did create this planet or it did not. Also, there are WAY more creation-myths then just yours, hundreds, maybe thousands of local myths exist all around the globe. Science however isn't based on age-old stories. Quote who says it sucks? I certainly don't.  Opinion. Like Ian already sad, your life (and mine, partially) are good. But what about those couple of billion people who live below the poverty line? The people who need to drink the water there neighboors took a dump in, the people who still die from something as diarrhea. People like this skepic: Can you féél the love flowing here? Why the héll do I want to worship a being who allowes (read: I'm not saying the being caused it) those things??

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,10:09    Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 13 2008,23:17) Quote (hereoisreal @ Mar. 14 2008,00:23) Ian said: "Clearly it's to kill us all." Ian, clearly that is not one of God's priorities. In seventy weeks: 1. finish the transgression 2. make an end of sins 3. make reconciliation for iniquity 4.bring in everlasting righteousness 5.seal up the vision and prophecy 6.anoint the most Holy Zero How is that clear? He obviously likes suffering, death, plauge, torture, genocide and famine, and wants them to happen to us or he would stop them. Either god is imperfect and wants to help us, but can't, or he could help us, and just doesn't want to, therefore displaying contempt for us. Or he doesn't exist, of course, which is what I believe. How is that clear? You can not find "suffering, death, plauge, torture, genocide and famine" in the six priorities above.  Actually, the list is a little misleading. The top priority is number six so the last should be placed first and the first last. He could have explained this to Job but even he wouldn't have understood. Zero -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,10:09    Delete/double post -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

hereoisreal Posts: 745 Joined: Feb. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,10:10    Delete/double post -------------- 360  miracles and more at: http://www.hereoisreal.com/....eal.com Great news. God’s wife is pregnant! (Rev. 12:5) It's not over till the fat lady sings! (Isa. 54:1 & Zec 9:9)

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,11:31    Quote (hereoisreal @ Mar. 15 2008,16:09) Quote (IanBrown_101 @ Mar. 13 2008,23:17)   Quote (hereoisreal @ Mar. 14 2008,00:23) Ian said: "Clearly it's to kill us all." Ian, clearly that is not one of God's priorities. In seventy weeks: 1. finish the transgression 2. make an end of sins 3. make reconciliation for iniquity 4.bring in everlasting righteousness 5.seal up the vision and prophecy 6.anoint the most Holy Zero How is that clear? He obviously likes suffering, death, plauge, torture, genocide and famine, and wants them to happen to us or he would stop them. Either god is imperfect and wants to help us, but can't, or he could help us, and just doesn't want to, therefore displaying contempt for us. Or he doesn't exist, of course, which is what I believe. How is that clear? You can not find "suffering, death, plauge, torture, genocide and famine" in the six priorities above.  Actually, the list is a little misleading. The top priority is number six so the last should be placed first and the first last. He could have explained this to Job but even he wouldn't have understood. Zero I don't care if it's one of the list, he still created a world wherein there would be great suffering, widespread famine and pestilence and a generally high number of things that kill us. Irrespective of whether he himself actually crafted things like AIDS or tsunamis, he knew they would happen and he carried on regardless and has done nothing to help. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

mitschlag Posts: 236 Joined: Sep. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,16:51    Quote (dheddle @ Mar. 14 2008,09:14) Ian, you have, in my opinion, created a false dilemma rooted, again in my opinion,in  an incorrect assumption about the nature God. If by “omnibenevolent” you mean that God loves everyone--well the scripture is not there to support such a pleasant idea. “Jacob I loved,” we are told, “but Esau I hated.” Furthermore, God was manifestly unbenevolent  to the Egyptians and to the various races upon whom he instructed Joshua’s army to commit genocide. God, according to scripture in toto, does not love the people he sends to eternal damnation, he hates them.  You can argue if “hate” means what we mean by hate—but you cannot argue that it is a feeling attributed to God that is in contrast to love—even if it just the absence thereof.  In other words, when you wrote:           Quote I fail to understand how a being that loves us would knowingly condemn us to eternal punnishment. I would say—that’s good, because he does no such thing. The very concept is, in fact, unthinkable and would render the notion of love meaningless. That's a wonderful god you have there.  An omnipotent being that creates sentient beings that it hates and condemns to eternal torment. I admire you for being so intelligent, yet believing such juvenile sadistic claptrap. -------------- "You can establish any “rule” you like if you start with the rule and then interpret the evidence accordingly." - George Gaylord Simpson (1902-1984)

dheddle Posts: 545 Joined: Sep. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,17:03    mitschlag   Quote That's a wonderful god you have there.  An omnipotent being that creates sentient beings that it hates and condemns to eternal torment. I admire you for being so intelligent, yet believing such juvenile sadistic claptrap. So, if God sends beings he loves to hell, that is evil. And if he sends beings he hates to hell, that is also evil. A peculiar case, if you will, of damned if you do, damned if you don't. -------------- Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,17:39    Quote (dheddle @ Mar. 15 2008,23:03) mitschlag   Quote That's a wonderful god you have there.  An omnipotent being that creates sentient beings that it hates and condemns to eternal torment. I admire you for being so intelligent, yet believing such juvenile sadistic claptrap. So, if God sends beings he loves to hell, that is evil. And if he sends beings he hates to hell, that is also evil. A peculiar case, if you will, of damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's pretty accurate though, since he created us with the express purpose of condemning us to hell. That's pretty evil, as far as one can say anything is evil, of course. on the other hand, condemning people you love to eternal torment is also pretty darn evil. So yeah, damned either way, but then, he is a sociopathic egotistical bully. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

skeptic Posts: 1163 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,18:24    I am not lucky Ian, I live the life I live because of the choices I have made.  The same can be said for mankind.  The world is the way it is because of the actions that man has committed.

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,18:50    Quote (dheddle @ Mar. 15 2008,18:03) mitschlag   Quote That's a wonderful god you have there.  An omnipotent being that creates sentient beings that it hates and condemns to eternal torment. I admire you for being so intelligent, yet believing such juvenile sadistic claptrap. So, if God sends beings he loves to hell, that is evil. And if he sends beings he hates to hell, that is also evil. A peculiar case, if you will, of damned if you do, damned if you don't. god created hell, so if he's in a situation where he can't win, it's his own doing.

GCT Posts: 1001 Joined: Aug. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,18:51    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 15 2008,19:24) I am not lucky Ian, I live the life I live because of the choices I have made.  The same can be said for mankind.  The world is the way it is because of the actions that man has committed. You're lucky that you happened to be born in a situation where you were able to make those choices at all.  Not all people get to be so lucky and have those choices.

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,18:59    Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 16 2008,00:24) I am not lucky Ian, I live the life I live because of the choices I have made.  The same can be said for mankind.  The world is the way it is because of the actions that man has committed. Bollocks. You are living in a nation where thepoverty level is around the level of the rich in some nations. You live in a world where you have a chance to do things others can't even conceive of. While it is true that the majority of the issues faced in the world are to do with politics, it is NOT the be all and end all of the world's situation. Unless you were born in Sierra Leone and escaped the crippling poverty to build a new life in the west, or something of a similar nature, then yes, you were lucky. If you don't think so, you're an egotistical, egocentric dickhead. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

IanBrown_101 Posts: 927 Joined: April 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,18:59    Quote (GCT @ Mar. 16 2008,00:51) Quote (skeptic @ Mar. 15 2008,19:24) I am not lucky Ian, I live the life I live because of the choices I have made.  The same can be said for mankind.  The world is the way it is because of the actions that man has committed. You're lucky that you happened to be born in a situation where you were able to make those choices at all.  Not all people get to be so lucky and have those choices. Damn, you beat me to it. -------------- I'm not the fastest or the baddest or the fatest. You NEVER seem to address the fact that the grand majority of people supporting Darwinism in these on line forums and blogs are atheists. That doesn't seem to bother you guys in the least. - FtK Roddenberry is my God.

Assassinator Posts: 479 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 15 2008,20:32    dheddle Quote So, if God sends beings he loves to hell, that is evil. And if he sends beings he hates to hell, that is also evil. A peculiar case, if you will, of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Simply sad: sending people to hell is evil. But that's not what it's about. It's about the fact that we're getting told that God loves us all, but A apperantly he condemns craploads of people to eternal doom and B he apperantly does not care about the majority of his creation suffering horribly. It's not about the fact that God would do such a thing, it's about the fact that those things aren't really making Him a good subject for worship. Ofcourse there is another option, he does care about those things but he simply can't do anything about it. That would mean however he isn't all-powerfull, and it would also be a problem for all-knowing. Afterall, then he would know that the majority of his creation would suffer that much, that he would know he would care about that and that he would know he couldn't do anything about it. But despite all that knowledge, he created us. Wierd isn't it? skeptic Quote I am not lucky Ian, I live the life I live because of the choices I have made.  The same can be said for mankind.  The world is the way it is because of the actions that man has committed. Would you mind telling that to this kid, That picture speaks for itself, doesn't it skeptic?

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