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  Topic: Uncommonly Dense Thread 2, general discussion of Dembski's site< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,10:46   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 11 2008,03:31)
Quote (keiths @ Dec. 11 2008,00:27)
Dembski reveals his motivation:
     
Quote
10

William Dembski

12/11/2008

12:59 am
DaveScot: Right. I came up with the EF on observing example after example in which people were trying to sift among necessity, chance, and design to come up with the right explanation. The EF is what philosophers of science call a “rational reconstruction” — it takes pre-theoretic ordinary reasoning and attempts to give it logical precision. But what gets you to the design node in the EF is SC (specified complexity). So working with the EF or SC end up being interchangeable. In THE DESIGN OF LIFE (published 2007), I simply go with SC. In UNDERSTANDING INTELLIGENT DESIGN (published 2008), I go back to the EF. I was thinking of just sticking with SC in the future, but with critics crowing about the demise of the EF, I’ll make sure it stays in circulation.

Right.  EF, SC, CSI - it doesn't matter.  They're all what philosophers of science call BS.

Bill really doesn't care if anyone takes him seriously, does he?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:02   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 11 2008,10:46)
Bill really doesn't care if anyone takes him seriously, does he?

Not as long as he can keep selling books!

--------------
Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
                        - Pattiann Rogers

   
Venus Mousetrap



Posts: 201
Joined: Aug. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:19   

I keep going to UD meaning to say something. Not even anything that would need them to moderate my post away. And... I can't. I just can't.

It's like being Alice in Wonderland. I'm trying my hardest to make sense of the rules of the place. I'm drinking the tea, moving along the table with the hare, and suddenly Dembski changes the rules AND EVERYONE CARRIES ON AS NORMAL. A very merry unbirthday, to him!

  
JohnW



Posts: 3217
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:30   

Quote (Kristine @ Dec. 11 2008,06:50)
Quote
Joseph
12/11/2008
8:52 am
Dave,

I would also add that the EF is only as good as the people (person) using it.

The spoon only bends if everyone belieeeeeeves. :)
*edit-geez, what is my problem lately?

In other words, the correct formulation of the EF isn't "Looks designed to me.  Therefore goddidit."  It's "Looks designed to Dr Dr D.  Therefore goddidit."

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:39   

Patrick
Quote
I think that’s the main brunt of criticism and it can be easily be fixed by updating the graphic and publishing it in a new book.
If it weren't Patrick I would say this guy is taking a piss at WMAD but I guess he is really serious and will be the first to buy it. Or second behind DS.

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
midwifetoad



Posts: 4003
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:40   

How about flipping the CSI acronym to Change, Selection, Iteration?

--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,11:54   

Quote
Joseph: Excuse me. May I please have your attention-

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me introduce you to the Pre-Natural Intelligent Designer

Thank You. Thank you very much…

So following the link to Joseph's blog.

Quote
Thanks to my buddy Rich Hughes we have hammered out the proper adjective for the Intelligent Designer and the forces that brought nature into existence- Pre-Natural- as in before nature.

As Rich and I were bickering back and forth- as buddies are known to do- I came to realize that the designer of the cosmos cannot go beyond what does not yet exist. Therefore the prefix of super does not fit.

In the comments, though, he says "Rich you are clearly a wanker and a screamer."


Added: The comments where they hashed out the breakthrough can be found here.

--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4991
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,12:43   

In Dembski's world, 31 == 56.

   
Quote

P.S. Congrats to Denyse O’Leary, whose Post-Darwinist blog tied for third in the science and technology category from the Canadian Blog Awards.


The actual award announcement, though, clearly marks DO'L's blog as "4." and notes that her blog received 31 votes. The #3 blog was actually "DeSmogBlog" and it received 56 votes.

Maybe Dembski was under the erroneous impression that the #3 graphic referred to the remaining listed blogs.

There was some humor a few years ago about the inference that 59 is non-prime based on one of Dembski's books.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,13:03   

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 11 2008,00:00)
UD is some kind of science-affiliated soap opera that wouldn't be believable if you wrote it as fiction.

I keep saying - a musical. Judge Jones aria. Creo-Evo dance-off. Bacterial flagella dance line number. All the world's organisms get to weigh in on who the Designer is.

Now that my bohemian self is surfacing again, maybe I'll actually do it.

I see a big fair use fight in my future... :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,14:02   

This week in evolution made a nice find.
 
Quote
The advocates of "intelligent design" claim there is enough scientific evidence for their theory that it should be taught in science classes. In support of this claim, they list a grand total of nine articles published in peer-reviewed journals over the entire history of intelligent design. This is fewer papers than evolutionary biologists publish every week, but every new field needs to start somewhere, I guess. The most-recent paper was published in 2006, however, which makes intelligent design look a bit moribund. Now it turns out that peer-review at the journal that published that paper, Chaos, Solitons, and Fractals, is suspect.
Nature reports that the editor, who apparently uses the journal mainly to publish his own papers and those that cite him,
   "is not, as he claims on his website, a distinguished fellow of the Institute of Physics at the Johann Wolfgang Goethe University in Frankfurt, Germany, says Walter Greiner, a former director of the institute. Greiner also says El Naschie has ignored his requests to remove his name from the list of members of the journal's honorary editorial board."

"Suspect" is, of course, quite an understatement. The editor in chief of CS&F, El Naschie, used this Journal to publish his own articles.
 
Quote
El Naschie is editor in chief of the journal Chaos, Solitons and Fractals.  This journal is published by Elsevier, one of the biggest players in the science publishing business.

But here’s where things get interesting: this journal also lists 322 papers with El Naschie as an author!

The n-Category Café, John Baez

The Nature article was triggered by El Naschie's "retirement" from his post as editor.
 
Quote
According to the Elsevier spokesperson, El Naschie is retiring to spend more time with his sockpuppets.

The last sentence up there was just a joke, okay?  Just a joke!  Whenever some guy gets booted out of a job, it seems a ‘spokesman’ says he wants to ‘spend more time with his family’.  But El Naschie prefers to take over blogs with crowds of imaginary commenters who trumpet the virtues of his theories or — lately, at a Telegraph article about Garrett Lisi — attack John Baez, the internet blog thug.  If he stops editing Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, he’ll have even more time for this.

Here’s what the Elsevier spokesperson actually said: “as a former editor El Naschie will no longer be involved in editorial decision making for the journal”.

John Baez (some quotes from the Nature article at this link)

That Elsevier allowed someone like El Naschie to be an editor of a Journal and selled his crankery to libraries as part of the Elsevier journal bundle is depressing.
 
Quote
And these aren’t just ordinary papers.   Just this month, El Naschie published a paper in Chaos, Solitons & Fractals called Fuzzy multi-instanton knots in the fabric of spacetime and Dirac’s vacuum fluctuation. In this paper, he finds an “incredible correlation” between particle physics and the results of “ingeniously simple” experiments with knotted lengths of rope!


Isn't that the perfect journal for an ID article?

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Bob O'H



Posts: 2564
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,14:52   

Quote
Isn't that the perfect journal for an ID article?

[K]Not really.  It sounds like the journal publishes experiments.

--------------
It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

   
Zachriel



Posts: 2723
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,15:59   

William Dembski, the next Earl of Sandwich...

Quote
William Dembski: I think the Explanatory Filter ranks among the most brilliant inventions of all time (right up there with sliced bread).

Olofsson leavens the discussion with a taste of the Old World.

Quote
Prof_P.Olofsson: What’s so great about sliced bread? The flavor is better kept if the loaf is kept intact and only sliced as needed.

Joseph apparently thinks everyone is an American...

Quote
Joseph: Americans slice bread? Only the few and the brave…


--------------

You never step on the same tard twice—for it's not the same tard and you're not the same person.

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,16:11   

Quote (Bob O'H @ Dec. 11 2008,20:52)
Quote
Isn't that the perfect journal for an ID article?

[K]Not really.  It sounds like the journal publishes experiments.

Well, I thought... with the editor being a crank... and all...
<hangs head>
You're right, of course.

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,16:39   

Quote
Mapou:
@Denyse O’Leary,

Congratulations! This is no doubt due to your tireless efforts in the face of constant and virulent attacks. Your enemies (and I’m sure they are as the sand of the sea) must be seething with envy and rage. It’s hard for me to refrain from laughing out loud.

I agree. After this bit of self-promotion
     
Quote
Note: If you like this and other related posts archived at Colliding Universes, you can vote for Colliding Unverses at the Canadian Blogger Awards, sci-tech division. Vote early, vote often, and vote for me, of course.

(and I'm sure she posted that on her other blogs as well) she was able to get 31 votes. Now we know exactly how many people read DO'L's posts and like them.

Truly laughable.

Oh, correction: The blog which got the 31 votes is Post-Darwinist. Colliding Universes didn't even make it into the best five (only 17 blogs were nominated, three of which belonged to DO'L...).

--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
EyeNoU



Posts: 115
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,16:39   

It snowed last night down here on the Texas Gulf Coast, I think on second earliest date since records started being kept. Why hasn't DaveScot posted  on this, since it "proves" global warming isn't true?

  
Tracy P. Hamilton



Posts: 1239
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,17:32   

Quote (JLT @ Dec. 11 2008,16:39)
Quote
Mapou:
@Denyse O’Leary,

Congratulations! This is no doubt due to your tireless efforts in the face of constant and virulent attacks. Your enemies (and I’m sure they are as the sand of the sea) must be seething with envy and rage. It’s hard for me to refrain from laughing out loud.

I agree. After this bit of self-promotion
       
Quote
Note: If you like this and other related posts archived at Colliding Universes, you can vote for Colliding Unverses at the Canadian Blogger Awards, sci-tech division. Vote early, vote often, and vote for me, of course.

(and I'm sure she posted that on her other blogs as well) she was able to get 31 votes. Now we know exactly how many people read DO'L's posts and like them.

Truly laughable.

Oh, correction: The blog which got the 31 votes is Post-Darwinist. Colliding Universes didn't even make it into the best five (only 17 blogs were nominated, three of which belonged to DO'L...).

Maybe Dembski was adding the votes for all of D'Oh Leary's blogs to give her enough votes for third place.  :p

--------------
"Following what I just wrote about fitness, you’re taking refuge in what we see in the world."  PaV

"The simple equation F = MA leads to the concept of four-dimensional space." GilDodgen

"We have no brain, I don't, for thinking." Robert Byers

  
Marion Delgado



Posts: 89
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,20:33   

Someone clue me in on how UD pissed off heddle?

Science denialism - check.

Dishonest and brain-dead Christianity - check

A relentlessly and comically partisan outlook - check

Is it a personality quarrel?

Is it Catholics vs. Calvinists?

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,21:41   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 11 2008,21:33)
Someone clue me in on how UD pissed off heddle?

Science denialism - check.

Dishonest and brain-dead Christianity - check

A relentlessly and comically partisan outlook - check

Is it a personality quarrel?

Is it Catholics vs. Calvinists?

I don't think Heddle's much of a science denier. I think he has a philosophical argument he calls ID that is appallingly bad but lots of physicists and other philosophy amateurs have bad philosophy arguments all the time. Nothing to get too exercised about.

The ID they do over at UD is straight up science denial. Your typical UD comment is "All scientists get together and persecute christians and destroy their careers and, in rigidly enforced lockstep, communicate the Darwinist propaganda which they all know is untrue." Since Heddle was a scientist, and knows that this is not just wrong but couldn't possibly be true, he disagrees with them.

   
bfish



Posts: 267
Joined: Feb. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,22:06   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 11 2008,18:33)
Someone clue me in on how UD pissed off heddle?

Science denialism - check.

Dishonest and brain-dead Christianity - check

A relentlessly and comically partisan outlook - check

Is it a personality quarrel?

Is it Catholics vs. Calvinists?

No, Heddle is not a science denier.

I also think he is rather honest.

Brain-dead Christianity - well, that's in the eye of the beholder, in'it?

Partisan outlook? I don't know. He did buy into Palin, a fairly wide-spread phenomena which ever will elude me.

I think the issue is that Heddle clearly sees that the UD leaders are dishonest, bullying charlatans. He has been upfront about that for some time.

  
Texas Teach



Posts: 2084
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,22:40   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Dec. 11 2008,16:39)
It snowed last night down here on the Texas Gulf Coast, I think on second earliest date since records started being kept. Why hasn't DaveScot posted  on this, since it "proves" global warming isn't true?

Much like the EF global warming is apparently back on:  the forecast for Friday is low 60s with mid-70s by Sunday.  What will Dave think now?

(The "snow" where I am consisted of maybe half an inch on car tops and caused us to delay school by two hours.  The locals were terrified.  I remember two Easters ago we got snow here and a local preacher was interviewed on the news saying it was a sign of the end of the world.)

--------------
"Creationists think everything Genesis says is true. I don't even think Phil Collins is a good drummer." --J. Carr

"I suspect that the English grammar books where you live are outdated" --G. Gaulin

  
sparc



Posts: 2088
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,22:43   

Nnoble prize laureates run the risk of too close encounter with El Naschine

--------------
"[...] the type of information we find in living systems is beyond the creative means of purely material processes [...] Who or what is such an ultimate source of information? [...] from a theistic perspective, such an information source would presumably have to be God."

- William Dembski -

   
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,23:05   

Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 11 2008,18:33)
Someone clue me in on how UD pissed off heddle?

Science denialism - check.

Dishonest and brain-dead Christianity - check

A relentlessly and comically partisan outlook - check

Is it a personality quarrel?

Is it Catholics vs. Calvinists?

It was all discussed here a year or two ago. Anyone up for spending a couple hours looking for a link to the relevant thread?

My memory of it was that Heddle was appalled by the grotesque parody of science on offer at UD. Also don't forget -- UD kicked Heddle out. Actually banned him.

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,23:42   

Quote (EyeNoU @ Dec. 11 2008,17:39)
It snowed last night down here on the Texas Gulf Coast, I think on second earliest date since records started being kept. Why hasn't DaveScot posted  on this, since it "proves" global warming isn't true?

There was a statement sometime a few weeks ago to the effect (that should prob get an abbreviation like t/t/e like the phrase 'with respect to' is abbreviated as w/r/t at least by David Foster Wallace (himself abbreviated as DFW) assuming it's popular enough of course) that Davetard wasn't allowed to talk about Global Warming anymore since the purpose of the blog, which most of us know is general science denial, is de facto only biology denial.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 11 2008,23:44   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 12 2008,00:05)
Also don't forget -- UD kicked Heddle out. Actually banned him.

Of course they banned him. The fastest possible way to get banned at UD is to actually be a scientist with some knowledge about the field in question.

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,00:37   

According to Nature, a subscription to Chaos, Solitons and Fractals costs a stunning US $4,520 a year!

I'm looking forward to retirement in a couple of years and I was thinking of supplementing my meager retirement income by selling photoshopped nudie pictures of Sarah Palin to unsuspecting Rethuglicans.  

But now, I'm wondering if setting up a mildly weird scientific journal might not pay much better.

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,01:52   

Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 12 2008,00:37)
According to Nature, a subscription to Chaos, Solitons and Fractals costs a stunning US $4,520 a year!

I'm looking forward to retirement in a couple of years and I was thinking of supplementing my meager retirement income by selling photoshopped nudie pictures of Sarah Palin to unsuspecting Rethuglicans.  

But now, I'm wondering if setting up a mildly weird scientific journal might not pay much better.

Count me in! In fact, most of the usual suspects here would be useful to have on board.

Lemmesee . . . a title: How about Teleological Archive of Rejected Digests? That would attract all those ID papers that were so unfairly suppressed by the mainstream science media.

It will be essential to have a raging controversy on the Letters page which will hopefully run and run, provoking bitterness, partisan sniping, and ruined careers. Perhaps Arden (or his mother) would like to serve as the focus of this?

Scientific standards are, of course, central to the reputation and integrity of any journal, so we must fake them convincingly. The easiest way to demonstrate that we don't accept any old rubbish is to publish rejection letters in the body of the magazine, thereby (a) reducing the number of crap articles we have to solicit for publication and (b) saving the price of a stamp on PFO letters.

Further suggestions, anyone?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
stevestory



Posts: 13407
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,03:14   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ Dec. 12 2008,00:05)
Quote (Marion Delgado @ Dec. 11 2008,18:33)
Someone clue me in on how UD pissed off heddle?

Science denialism - check.

Dishonest and brain-dead Christianity - check

A relentlessly and comically partisan outlook - check

Is it a personality quarrel?

Is it Catholics vs. Calvinists?

It was all discussed here a year or two ago. Anyone up for spending a couple hours looking for a link to the relevant thread?

My memory of it was that Heddle was appalled by the grotesque parody of science on offer at UD. Also don't forget -- UD kicked Heddle out. Actually banned him.

It's called something like David Heddle Stat Chat. it's the place to go if you want to argue against his horrible stat argument.

   
JLT



Posts: 740
Joined: Jan. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,04:03   

Quote (Amadan @ Dec. 12 2008,07:52)
   
Quote (CeilingCat @ Dec. 12 2008,00:37)
According to Nature, a subscription to Chaos, Solitons and Fractals costs a stunning US $4,520 a year!

I'm looking forward to retirement in a couple of years and I was thinking of supplementing my meager retirement income by selling photoshopped nudie pictures of Sarah Palin to unsuspecting Rethuglicans.  

But now, I'm wondering if setting up a mildly weird scientific journal might not pay much better.

Count me in! In fact, most of the usual suspects here would be useful to have on board.

Lemmesee . . . a title: How about Teleological Archive of Rejected Digests? That would attract all those ID papers that were so unfairly suppressed by the mainstream science media.

It will be essential to have a raging controversy on the Letters page which will hopefully run and run, provoking bitterness, partisan sniping, and ruined careers. Perhaps Arden (or his mother) would like to serve as the focus of this?

Scientific standards are, of course, central to the reputation and integrity of any journal, so we must fake them convincingly. The easiest way to demonstrate that we don't accept any old rubbish is to publish rejection letters in the body of the magazine, thereby (a) reducing the number of crap articles we have to solicit for publication and (b) saving the price of a stamp on PFO letters.

Further suggestions, anyone?



--------------
"Random mutations, if they are truly random, will affect, and potentially damage, any aspect of the organism, [...]
Thus, a realistic [computer] simulation [of evolution] would allow the program, OS, and hardware to be affected in a random fashion." GilDodgen, Frilly shirt owner

  
Amadan



Posts: 1337
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,04:20   

JLT: cool avatar.

Randomly assembled from unsorted spare pixels, I presume?

--------------
"People are always looking for natural selection to generate random mutations" - Densye  4-4-2011
JoeG BTW dumbass- some variations help ensure reproductive fitness so they cannot be random wrt it.

   
CeilingCat



Posts: 2363
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Dec. 12 2008,04:31   

"AAAS" = American Association that's Almost Sciency"

I think Denyse will buy it.

  
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