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Quidam



Posts: 229
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,15:41   

Quote (didymos @ April 21 2008,12:52)
fill your own chasm.



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The organized fossils ... and their localities also, may be understood by all, even the most illiterate. William Smith, Strata. 1816

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,16:19   

Quote (don_quixote @ April 21 2008,15:26)
This is precious:





"Expelled Flops at Box Office" says Ed Brayton

"Expelled a Box Office Success" says Chris C. Mooney

"I am Labeled a "Creationist Apologist" says Chris C. Mooney

...and he wonders why?

That is art!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,18:07   

I bow to no one in my respect of Arthur Caplan as a bioethicist - and now, I guess the DI is going to have to list him as another of their "enemies."

Ben Stein's so-called documentary ‘Expelled’ isn't just bad, it's immoral:
 
Quote
The definition of what science is and what should be taught as science in a world in which Asia and Europe are itching to clean our economic clocks by seeing us throw away our considerable lead in synthetic biology, genomics, agriculture and the biomedical, oceanographic, geological and energy sciences escapes Stein and his producers. This despite the fact they have ample time to regale us with all the documentary stylings involving old movies, public health messages and TV film clips that Michael Moore has already made stale. The failure to say what science is constitutes a huge failing in this cinematic cant.

Science, by the very definition of the term, wants to invoke god or divine intervention as little as possible in seeking explanations for natural phenomena. Is that because, as "Expelled" suggests, scientists hate religion? No. Rather it is because the whole point of science is to press to see how far natural causes and mechanisms can go in explaining what is going on around us. There is not much room in science, although there is in history, religion, philosophy or sociology class, for jumping up and down and invoking god as the explanation of anything and everything. Could such an explanation be true? Sure. Is it science? Hardly. Does the movie get us anywhere close to understanding the difference? Not a bit.

and
Quote
This is the core of what is ethically rotten about this movie. Darwinism did not lead to Nazism in Germany. Nor does Darwinism inherently contain the seeds of Nazism.

There were many nations, such as Brazil, where Darwinism led to no political ideology. There were some such as Britain which embraced Darwinism but saw a considerable number of their population killed trying to eliminate Nazism. There were other nations, such as the Soviet Union, where Darwinism was seen as so dangerous and subversive to state sponsored dreams of social engineering that those who espoused it were killed or exiled and a complete biological fairy tale, Lysenkoism, put into classrooms and agricultural policy ultimately leading to the deaths of millions from starvation.

And there were some nations where Darwinism was greeted with glee because it seemed so compatible with the prevailing ideology of the day. In particular the United States at the turn of the 20th century where robber-baron capitalists like the Carnegies, Mellons, Sumners, Stanfords and yes, even Jack London, could not stop rattling on about how the "survival of the fittest" justified crushing unions, exploiting immigrant labor or being left unregulated to amass huge fortunes while administering monopolies.

Ben Stein apparently understands none of this. He flags Darwin but does not bother to go and stare at the busts of Adam Smith, Herbert Spencer, Ernst Haeckel, Thomas Malthus so much beloved by American proponents of survival of the fittest.

Worse yet, while frowning at Darwin’s statute in a manly fashion, Stein makes no mention of the key factors driving Nazi ideology — racism, homophobia and hatred of the mentally ill and disabled.

To lay blame for the Holocaust upon Charles Darwin is to engage in a form of Holocaust denial that should forever make Ben Stein the subject of scorn not because of his nudnik concern that evolution somehow undermines morality but because in this contemptible movie he is willing to subvert the key reason why the Holocaust took place — racism — to serve his own ideological end. Expelled indeed.

*whistle*

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Reciprocating Bill



Posts: 4265
Joined: Oct. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,18:32   

Quote (Kristine @ April 21 2008,19:07)
I bow to no one in my respect of Arthur Caplan as a bioethicist - and now, I guess the DI is going to have to list him as another of their "enemies."  <snip>

WAD is pleased:



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Myth: Something that never was true, and always will be.

"The truth will set you free. But not until it is finished with you."
- David Foster Wallace

"Here’s a clue. Snarky banalities are not a substitute for saying something intelligent. Write that down."
- Barry Arrington

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,18:34   

However, let us not forget that Ben Stein did not write this movie, Kevin Miller did.

Ben is just the face, albeit one we'd all like to forget.

The architect of this bit of pathologic prevarication is our Kevin who should change his business card to read "documentary" writer.

I'm not letting Ben off the hook, though, he's smart enough to understand what he was promoting which makes him all the more a disgusting figure.

It's clear now (not that it wasn't before!) that Expelled is simply a series of lies strung together, lie after lie after lie, augmented by stolen intellectual property.  Expelled is now expelled.

I'm glad this particular creationist wad is finally shot and we can get on to more pressing discussions such as the trumped-up "academic freedom" bills which seems to be the mode du jour.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,18:51   

Speaking of Wad

 
Quote
"The day Darwinism and Intelligent Design can be fairly discussed without fear of reprisal represents the removal of a barrier even greater than the Berlin Wall. When future intellectual historians describe the key events that led to the fall of 'Darwin's Wall,' Ben Stein's Expelled will top the list."


See it all here

He just jinxed the movie like Behe jinxed his stupid book!  Ben should sue him!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2139
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,19:10   

Quote (Doc Bill @ April 21 2008,16:34)
However, let us not forget that Ben Stein did not write this movie, Kevin Miller did.

Ben is just the face, albeit one we'd all like to forget.

Ben Stein is given writer credits, and is such an active and willing shill for the movie that I think that he deserves all that he gets.

Edited by Dr.GH on April 21 2008,17:11

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,21:31   

When you're in the mood for self-abuse (no, not THAT kind of self-abuse) you've got to read the Conservapedia article on Expelled.

It is so freaking mental.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Nomad



Posts: 311
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:00   

I found a positive review!

It starts off with an interesting premise, that the reviewer wasn't interested because he already knew what the movie was going to say, so why should he go see it to be told it again.

But the examples he picked are telling:
Quote
It is a reality of PC liberalism: There is only one credible side to an issue, and any dissent is not only rejected, it is scorned. Global warming. Gay "rights." Abortion "rights." On these and so many other issues there is enlightenment, and then there is the Idiotic Other Side. PC liberalism's power centers are the news media, the entertainment industry and academia, and all are in the clutches of an unmistakable hypocrisy: Theirs is an ideology that preaches the freedom of thought and expression at every opportunity, yet practices absolute intolerance toward dissension.


Those damned "PC liberalists" and their notions about tolerance.  Don't they know this is America, where we only tolerate what the bible tells us to tolerate?  Pardon me, what our ranting fundamentalist leaders TELL US that the bible tells us to tolerate?  I can see why he liked the movie, he fits right in to their demographic.  Intolerance regarding the gays is fine, but intolerance about crackpot pseudoscience, we can't have that.

The actual content regarding the movie is more or less what you'd expect, it's the bits around the edges of the review that I like.  Like his ending, where he says:
   
Quote
Everyone should take the opportunity to see "Expelled" — if nothing else, as a bracing antidote to the atheism-friendly culture of PC liberalism. But it's far more than that. It's a spotlight on the arrogance of this movement and its leaders, a spotlight on the choking intolerance of academia, and a spotlight on the ignorance of so many who say so much, yet know so very little.


Yeah, tolerance of atheism is such a terrible thing.  Give me some of that good old fashioned religiously fueled intolerance!  He says it all.  The movie isn't really about modern evolutionary theory.  It's about trying to overthrow modern, enlightened culture.  Clearly he's read the wedge document, he knows it's about working to replace a secular democracy with a theocracy.

And then he caps it off with a heaping helping of unwitting irony.  Let me just quote that bit again.

Quote
a spotlight on the ignorance of so many who say so much, yet know so very little


You got that right Mr Bozell the third.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:00   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ April 21 2008,19:31)
When you're in the mood for self-abuse (no, not THAT kind of self-abuse) you've got to read the Conservapedia article on Expelled.

It is so freaking mental.

Enh.  It just doesn't induce that gibbering Lovecraftian horror I was looking for.  C'mon wingnuts, you can do better.  I know you can.

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I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:21   

yeah


Quote
The movie completely omits Theistic Evolution, which is not taught in public school and used primarily by evolutionists to rebut their obvious correlation with atheism. Mark Mathis, an associate editor of Expelled, when asked why alleged religious evolutionists such as Catholic Kenneth R. Miller were not in the film, replied that this form of fallacious liberal logic (see point 6) "would have confused the film unnecessarily."[24]


thanks conservapedia.  that is hilarious.  fallacious liberal logic kills me.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
Annyday



Posts: 583
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:31   

Make sure to hit the linked article on "liberal logic". It's awesome. You might also look for "professor values"...

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"ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:44   

Quote
"We think we were very above board with them," Mathis said. "... The people who want to attack the film are raising some issues that are really kind of irrelevant issues –- side issues, diversionary issues -– and not addressing the content of the film."

The content, Stein agreed, should be the focus. Asked how he could question Darwinian evolution when those in academic leadership say it's been established as fact, Stein gave one of his patented half-serious, half-joking answers.

"The intelligentsia often is wrong," he said in a serious tone. "I'd say they're wrong at least as often as they're right. We aim to show them that they're wrong again. We're sick of being pushed around by the intelligentsia."

Then he added jokingly, in his famous monotone voice, "Even though I am one of the intelligentsia, we don't like to be pushed around; we don't like to be pushed around by other members of the intelligentsia, and I don't even like pushing myself around."


wow.  them sombitches are funnier than hell aint it.  arden knows what i mean too. god damn.  funny like a big purple throbber.  

by the way, they're as wrong as often as they're right.  THAT is a null model for anti-realism.  Someone at Baptist Press is even stupider than Ben STein.

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
UnMark



Posts: 97
Joined: Mar. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:46   

Isn't the Conservapedia the site that "refutes" the TalkOrigins Common Creationist Claims?  I remember perusing that list a few months ago, clicking on random topics until I came to an article that blithely brushed aside the ancient age of the earth as a mere "farce."  When I stopped laughing, I closed the browser and successfully attempted to forget all specifics about the site.

  
Erasmus, FCD



Posts: 6349
Joined: June 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 21 2008,22:47   

more from there. annyday thanks for pointing that out.  I stopped to look for Nicrophorus in the yard but you pointed out that it is all really great habitat over in the field.


Quote
If you acknowledge this idea that design can be detected scientifically in the universe, then you open up the door to saying, 'Maybe this atheistic view isn't true,' [and] the entire worldview of people who are atheists crashes down around them," Mathis said.


ALL SCIENCE SO FAR!!!!

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You're obviously illiterate as hell. Peach, bro.-FtK

Finding something hard to believe based on the evidence, is science.-JoeG

the odds of getting some loathsome taint are low-- Gordon E Mullings Manjack Heights Montserrat

I work on molecular systems with pathway charts and such.-Giggles

  
oldmanintheskydidntdoit



Posts: 4999
Joined: July 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,03:06   

From that conservapedia article about Expelled this make me chuckle, tagged under "Viewer Reception"
 
Quote

Expelled opened on April 18, 2008, on 1000 screens. It grossed $3.2 million US, or more than $3,000 per screen.[11]


erm, that's how much it made on the opening weekend. Nothing to do with " Viewer Reception" whatsoever. I guess you can only polish a turd so much...

Elsewhere is this
Quote
Justin Chang wrote the following for the liberal publication Variety, which has a circulation smaller than Conservapedia's daily page views

How proud they must be!

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I also mentioned that He'd have to give me a thorough explanation as to *why* I must "eat human babies".
FTK

if there are even critical flaws in Gauger’s work, the evo mat narrative cannot stand
Gordon Mullings

  
don_quixote



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,06:23   

Chris Mooney has been wondering why people have accused him of creationist apologetics. Do you think that now his (and Randy's) posts have appeared on Uncommon Descent he will get the message?

Chris Mooney - Shaken (Not Stirred) by Expelled

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2090
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,06:30   

Hector Avalos confirms "Expelled" is a bomb.  The bad news is at Box Office Mojo: They took in $1,205,000 Friday, $990,000 Saturday and $775,000 Sunday.  That's a loooonnngg way from Faherenheit 911!

Avalos also directs us to the Iowa State Daily for a "close up" look at the debute in Gonzalez's home town.

I wrote this reply to the article, although it hasn't made it through moderation yet:  
Quote
Dr. Gonzalez states that he was "shocked" to learn that he didn't achieve tenure.  How was this possible, Dr. Gonzalez?  You were on a tenure path at Iowa State for seven years.  You received yearly reviews.  Surely people at those reviews told you that you were missing the requirements for tenure by miles.  You knew that attracting grants and telescope time was vital for achieving tenure, but you were never able to think up a research project good enough to attract grants or telescope time.  Didn't you notice that you weren't bringing any money in and never got to use a telescope?  Helping graduate students attain degrees is another important factor in achieving tenure.  Didn't you notice that not a single one of your graduate students attained a degree in your seven years at Iowa State?

Professor Gonzalez, I think you realized years ago that you weren't going to earn tenure.  I think that's why you wrote "Privileged Planet".  "Martyr" sounds better than "academic failure".


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...after reviewing the arguments, I’m inclined to believe that the critics of ENCODE’s bold claim were mostly right, and that the proportion of our genome which is functional is probably between 10 and 20%.  --Vincent Torley, uncommondescent.com 1/1/2016

  
CeilingCat



Posts: 2090
Joined: Dec. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,06:45   

Quote
Arthur Kaplan: Worse yet, while frowning at Darwin’s statute in a manly fashion, Stein makes no mention of the key factors driving Nazi ideology — racism, homophobia and hatred of the mentally ill and disabled.


Even worse, he leaves out the number one cause of murderous anti-semitism, a group that was hating Jews 2000 years ago and which has been slaughtering them in wholesale lots for the last thousand years: Christianity. And not just any old Christians, either.  A few liberal Christians did oppose the Nazis.  Hitler killed about 600 of them.  The Conservative Christians were enthusiastic supporters of the Nazi party.
 
ALL of the top Nazis and all of their minions were Christians.  Hitler only got into power because the Roman Catholic church dismantled the Catholic Zentrum party in return for money and recognition.

See here for the gory details of Hitler and Christianity's role in his rise.

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...after reviewing the arguments, I’m inclined to believe that the critics of ENCODE’s bold claim were mostly right, and that the proportion of our genome which is functional is probably between 10 and 20%.  --Vincent Torley, uncommondescent.com 1/1/2016

  
improvius



Posts: 807
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,08:05   

Quote (UnMark @ April 21 2008,23:46)
Isn't the Conservapedia the site that "refutes" the TalkOrigins Common Creationist Claims?  I remember perusing that list a few months ago, clicking on random topics until I came to an article that blithely brushed aside the ancient age of the earth as a mere "farce."  When I stopped laughing, I closed the browser and successfully attempted to forget all specifics about the site.

No, Conservapedia is the site that "refutes" Wikipedia's claims.  Because Wikipedia has a blatant liberal bias.

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Quote (afdave @ Oct. 02 2006,18:37)
Many Jews were in comfortable oblivion about Hitler ... until it was too late.
Many scientists will persist in comfortable oblivion about their Creator ... until it is too late.

  
celdd



Posts: 18
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,08:57   

For those who haven't seen it, Matt Chandler who wrote the lyrics for the Beware the Believer video, talks about how it came about over on  Pharyngula

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,09:25   

Quote (celdd @ April 22 2008,07:57)
For those who haven't seen it, Matt Chandler who wrote the lyrics for the Beware the Believer video, talks about how it came about over on  Pharyngula

Oh, what a wish-I-was-a-fly-on-the-wall moment! :p
 
Quote
That night at a dinner party [director Nathan] Frankowski's wife asked me what I'd been working on for the film. When I told her I was writing a rap she asked me if I wouldn't mind busting out with little sample. Emboldened by the island's finest boxed wine I unwisely obliged.

I'll spare you the gory details of its initial reception. Let it suffice to say this- if you are ever needing to dry up a dinner party in a hurry try busting out the line 'don't you know that this Dick is uncock-fricken-blockable!' wearing a linen napkin doo-rag and singing into a bread stick microphone. It really does the trick.

The next day I was reasonably confident I'd be getting pink-slipped. But it didn't happen.

In fact the producers responded to it quite positively. And to their credit they got what I was going for in the text.

Neither the double meanings nor the purposed ambiguity was lost on them. At least that was my impression. Movie producers in general can be an unscrupulous inscrutable lot.

Be that as it may, I am happy to report the only parts redacted were cut for time, not for content; an unexpected shock considering the previous night's debacle. (A pox upon you Boone's Farm! And your wild strawberry hurricane flavored cabernet too!;)

:D He's quite a writer. We should have him over for a little Little Penquin. ;)

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
themadlolscientist



Posts: 19
Joined: April 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,10:24   

Quote
Wikipedia has a blatant liberal bias.

So does reality.  :)

Another Christian who gets it:

Quote
Rarely do you find a movie so courteous as to write a review into the title, but Ben Stein's crockumentary Expelled does just that.... Intelligent Design is not science. Period. I say this as a committed Christian who firmly believes that God created the earth, the heavens and all the things in them.

Shots Across the Bow

  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:08   

Quote
It may be interesting to hear from professors who teach science who HAVE been granted tenure, even while being known to express doubt that every event experienced by mortals is determined --- completely and solely by natural processes, in respect of which any superior expression of consciousness or will is foreclosed.


Maybe we could find a few among those who signed the DI statement. ;)

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Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:13   

Now someone has written to Michael Shermer calling him a Nazi.
Quote
Now I truly understand who you atheists and darwinists really are! You people believe that it was okay for my great-grandparents to die in the Holocaust! How disgusting. Your past article about the Holocaust was just window dressing. We Jews will fight to keep people like you out of the United States!

I understand that Shermer is on friendly terms with many ID advocates, including Dembski, Behe, and others. I am sure that they know that Shermer is no Nazi sympathizer, and I wonder if all their supposed knowledge includes that old adage about unintended consequences.

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:23   

Quote (Kristine @ April 22 2008,09:13)
Now someone has written to Michael Shermer calling him a Nazi.
 
Quote
Now I truly understand who you atheists and darwinists really are! You people believe that it was okay for my great-grandparents to die in the Holocaust! How disgusting. Your past article about the Holocaust was just window dressing. We Jews will fight to keep people like you out of the United States!

I understand that Shermer is on friendly terms with many ID advocates, including Dembski, Behe, and others. I am sure that they know that Shermer is no Nazi sympathizer, and I wonder if all their supposed knowledge includes that old adage about unintended consequences.

I wonder if that's a prank. Except for Ben Stein, Jews are usually far more intelligent than that.

Or alternately, it might be Michael Korn using a pseudonym.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
dheddle



Posts: 542
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:28   

Quote (midwifetoad @ April 22 2008,11:08)
   
Quote
It may be interesting to hear from professors who teach science who HAVE been granted tenure, even while being known to express doubt that every event experienced by mortals is determined --- completely and solely by natural processes, in respect of which any superior expression of consciousness or will is foreclosed.


Maybe we could find a few among those who signed the DI statement. ;)

Heh-That would be me on all points. I have tenure (at a public university). I am known as a devout Christian. I firmly believe and have made it known that I think God intelligently designed the universe. And I signed the DI statement.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:32   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,11:28)
And I signed the DI statement.

What was the wording, Dave?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
dheddle



Posts: 542
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:45   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,11:32)
 
Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,11:28)
And I signed the DI statement.

What was the wording, Dave?

I assume we are talking about their standard dissent:

Quote
We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.


which in a certain sense is a statement beyond dispute. That makes it both clever, in a way, and meaningless. Like the anti-abortion bumper statement: "Abortion stops a beating heart." It must be accepted as manifestly true, yet it still sends a message that conveys the holder's position.

People ask me about having signed that all the time. I'm of the school: I did it, so be it. I signed maybe four or five years ago, when it was the DI 300. I knew nothing of the shenanigans of the DI movement. I was contacted, did a little investigating, and thought: here's a group that thinks like I do, that faith and science can live together, so I signed.

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Mysticism is a rational enterprise. Religion is not. The mystic has recognized something about the nature of consciousness prior to thought, and this recognition is susceptible to rational discussion. The mystic has reason for what he believes, and these reasons are empirical. --Sam Harris

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 22 2008,11:54   

Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,11:45)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 22 2008,11:32)
   
Quote (dheddle @ April 22 2008,11:28)
And I signed the DI statement.

What was the wording, Dave?

I assume we are talking about their standard dissent:

 
Quote
We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.


which in a certain sense is a statement beyond dispute. That makes it both clever, in a way, and meaningless. Like the anti-abortion bumper statement: "Abortion stops a beating heart." It must be accepted as manifestly true, yet it still sends a message that conveys the holder's position.

People ask me about having signed that all the time. I'm of the school: I did it, so be it. I signed maybe four or five years ago, when it was the DI 300. I knew nothing of the shenanigans of the DI movement. I was contacted, did a little investigating, and thought: here's a group that thinks like I do, that faith and science can live together, so I signed.

Caveat; I really like you Dave.

Now, the hard stuff.

I don't think any biologist has thought that "random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life" for Decades. There are many other mechanisms that would help account for this, and they are likely not complete either. The argument is Straw man attack on evolution. So I'm going to ask you, why did you sign it? Did you think that RM + NS was all there was? Did you feel "qualified" to sign it? Do you regret signing it? Would Jesus sign it?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
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