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Antievolution.org Discussion Board > From the Panda's Thumb > After the Bar Closes... > Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

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Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,16:22    Quote (Louis @ Aug. 12 2007,07:40) YAWN. Wake me for the second reel. Why didn't they go the whole propaganda hog and ressurect Leni Riefenstahl for the director's chair? After all wasn't she merely a misunderstood and misused propagandist film maker? Shouldn't birds of a misunderstood feather flock together? Do I win an award for such an early Godwin? Louis Undead Leni Riefenstahl had too many standards. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,18:57    Hypocrisy, thy name is Kevin Miller. The rant about objectivity and balance would be a bit more credible if your own "documentary" exhibited either of those principles.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,19:16    Quote (Reed @ Mar. 22 2008,18:57) Hypocrisy, thy name is Kevin Miller. The rant about objectivity and balance would be a bit more credible if your own "documentary" exhibited either of those principles. That was me, that was. I demand the De Rerum Natura equivalent of a gold star. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,20:48    Kevin Miller says the animation was custom made for the film: http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwi....7971996 Quote Adrian: 1. As I've noted elsewhere on my blog, the producers of Expelled will issue a statement on the reason behind PZ's eviction. It's not my role to speak for them. 2. We have not lied about a Nazi-Atheism connection. If you actually watch the film, you'll see we don't even address that topic. However, we do address the Darwin-Hitler connection. 3. The reason their side comment on the celluar animation is laughable is that they went to the bother of posting this video online without doing some simple fact-checking. Their accusations that we "borrowed" this piece from Harvard is completely unfounded. Our team created it for our film. As for your statements about Christianity, I fail to see how they are relevant. Expelled is not about Christians vs. atheists. It's about what happens when the quest for truth becomes a quest for power and control. It's about tyranny in the Academy and its consequences. Nothing more. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,20:58    Copyright protects performances. But even so, even if the animation is done by the "Expelled" folks, it could still be an infringement of the Harvard/XVIVO animation if it is found to be a derivative work. If it can be mistaken by knowledgeable people for the original, they are running a significant risk in this respect, though it must be said that IANAL. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

TAG Posts: 3 Joined: Mar. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,21:31    Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 20 2008,22:49) Mark Mathis made a big spiel about "let's be open to new ideas and have a debate." So Dawkins stands up, and these open-minded people laugh at him. Hi folks, I just registered here coming over from the RDF forums. I'm a little late to the party following this crazy story. I just had to ask about this part of Kristine's report. What were they laughing at Dawkins about? I don't understand what happened. He just asked why PZ was kicked out, right? Thanks!

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,21:34    Allan MacNeill says his lawyer advised taking legal action: http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelle....-190050 Quote 57 Allen_MacNeill 03/22/2008 9:16 pm JPCollado wrote (in #55): “…I don’t see enough compelling evidence that the producers lied to Mr. MacNeill.” My lawyer was of exactly the opposite opinion, and advised suing the filmmakers if my comments were included in the film. However, on further consideration, I thought that this would only add support to the main thesis of the film: that evolutionary biologists have “unfairly persecuted” proponents of ID. And so, I decided not to pursue a lawsuit against Rampart Films, which (in the fullness of time) would have been pointless anyway, as my comments were not included in the movie for the reasons I posted earlier. For those who require documentation from primary sources, I have originals of all of my email correspondence with Rampart Films, Mark Mathis, Will Provine, Richard Dawkins, PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott, and my lawyer on the aforementioned points, and would be happy to share them (with personal information redacted for the sake of privacy) with anyone interested. You can find a link to my email address at my blog: -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,21:46    Quote (Reed @ Mar. 22 2008,03:30) Preserved for posterity: Should put to rest the idea that PZ and Dawkins hacked the RSVP site or "crashed" the event.  :p That doesn't take you to their "private screenings," however.  Actually, I don't know why more on our side didn't take advantage of the earlier showings, but they didn't. The later showings did have a different address, one that they didn't publicize much.  But it was still on the web, which I know because it was on the site of a Chicago viewing that I posted here (and when I realized it had all of the remaining viewings, I posted the rsvp address for "private screenings" on several forums). Glen D -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Reed Posts: 274 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,22:37    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 22 2008,18:58) Copyright protects performances. But even so, even if the animation is done by the "Expelled" folks, it could still be an infringement of the Harvard/XVIVO animation if it is found to be a derivative work. If it can be mistaken by knowledgeable people for the original, they are running a significant risk in this respect, though it must be said that IANAL. From my (IANAL) understanding, they would have to be very similar indeed to get into any trouble if they haven't actually copied any of the original. Not just "gee it looks really similar" but "I can't tell these scenes apart even playing them side by side." People have tried to extend copyright to "look and feel" but fortunately have failed for the most part. If they actually made it themselves, they are probably safe. @glen yeah, I noticed that after the fact (see my next post after that one), but I still can't edit, so there it is ;)

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,22:46    The Expelled RSVP site has dried up and evaporated like some fever dream. Only past screenings are listed now. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Wesley R. Elsberry Posts: 4991 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,22:49    There are people claiming vociferously that the animations used were the Illustra media ones. Given that PZ has the DVD with some portion of the animation used on it, he should be able to do some side-by-side comparisons and put this to rest one way or the other. But I think that relying on recall alone probably isn't sufficient in this case. -------------- "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

Glen Davidson Posts: 1100 Joined: May 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,23:01    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 22 2008,22:46) The Expelled RSVP site has dried up and evaporated like some fever dream. Only past screenings are listed now. Ooh, it has at that.  Nevertheless, the rsvp site at Expelled had only the older showings: Quote FL Boca Raton Trinity Church January 10 7:00 PM Done   FL Clearwater International Church of Clearwater January 17 7:00 PM Done   FL Lake Alfred First Baptist Church Lake Alfred January 16 6:30 PM Done   FL Orlando Pine Castle Christian Academy January 14 1:30 PM Done   FL Titusville Jesus & Co Connect January 11 7:00 PM Done   FL Vero Beach King's Baptist Church January 18 7:00 PM Done   IL Springfield Christian Student Fellowship @ the University of Illinois at Springfield - Brookins Auditorium 192  December 7 3:00 PM Done   IN Bluffton Life Community Church - Bluffton Auditorium December 9 7:00 PM Done   IN Indianapolis Life Point Church December 6 7:00 PM Done   OH Canton North Industry Christian Church  December 3 7:00 PM Done   OH Columbus Worthington Christian Church December 5 7:00 PM Done   OH Dayton The Experience Youth Church Coming Soon... TBD Done   OH Fairborn Wright State University  November 30 7:00 PM Done   OH Xenia Fusion Church - A House of Prayer (Church) December 1 7:00 PM Done   TN Dayton Bryan College - Rudd Auditorium  November 26 7:00 PM Done   VA Lynchburg Liberty University - 1114 DeMoss Hall November 27 7:00 PM Done   VA Purcellville Patrick Henry College November 28 7:30 PM Done   VA Virginia Beach Regent University / Main Theater January 25 7:30 PM Done   WV Huntington Marshall University - Don Morris Room  November 29 7:00 PM Done     http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/movies/expelled The less publicized site had newer listings: Quote AZ Tempe Harkins Arizona Mills April 3 7:00 PM  RSVP CA Dublin Regal Hacienda Crossings 21 March 26 7:00 PM  RSVP CA Santa Clara AMC Mercado 20 March 27 8:00 PM  RSVP CO Broomfield (Denver) AMC Flatiron Crossing April 2 7:00 PM  RSVP FL Lake Buena Vista (Orlando) AMC Pleasure Island 24 March 18 7:00 PM RSVP GA Decatur (Atlanta) AMC North Dekalb Mall 16 March 25 7:00 PM  RSVP IL Deerfield Trinity International University March 18 1:00 PM  RSVP IL Schaumburg (Chicago) AMC Loews Streets of Woodfield 20 March 18 7:00 PM  RSVP KY Louisville National Amusements Showcase Cinemas Stoneybrook March 31 7:00 PM  RSVP MA Cambridge AMC Loews Harvard Square 5 March 19 7:00 PM  RSVP MD Owings Mills (Baltimore) AMC Owings Mills 17 April 1 7:00 PM RSVP MI Grand Rapids Grand Rapids First March 4 3:30 PM Done MI Livonia (Detroit) AMC Livonia 20 March 26 7:00 PM  RSVP MN Bloomington AMC Mall of America 14 March 20 7:00 PM  RSVP MO Creve Coeur (St. Louis) AMC Creve Coeur 12 March 12 7:00 PM Done MO Kansas City Ward Parkway Theater March 4 7:00 PM Done NC Charlotte AMC Carolina Pavilion 22 March 10 7:00 PM Done NM Albuquerque Century Rio 24 March 6 2:00 PM Done OH Brooklyn (Cleveland) AMC Ridge Park Square 8 March 19 7:00 PM RSVP OR Portland PENDING - CLICK BUTTON TO BE ADDED TO OUR WAITLIST March 25 TBD Waitlist PA Plymouth Meeting (Philly) AMC Plymouth Meeting March 27 7:00 PM RSVP TN Franklin Carmike Thoroughbred 20 March 10 7:00 PM Done TX Houston River Oaks Theatre March 13 7:00 PM  RSVP TX San Antonio Santikos Palladium IMAX March 12 7:00 PM Done WA Seattle PENDING - CLICK BUTTON TO BE ADDED TO OUR WAITLIST March 24 TBD Waitlist WI Milwaukee AMC Mayfair Mall 18 April 8 7:00 PM  RSVP http://rsvp.getexpelled.com/events/special/expelled That's how it was on March 12.  Now it's essentially the same, except that they took off all of the ones that remained after the recent debacle: Quote FL Lake Buena Vista (Orlando) AMC Pleasure Island 24 March 18 7:00 PM Done   IL Deerfield Trinity International University March 18 1:00 PM Done   IL Schaumburg (Chicago) AMC Loews Streets of Woodfield 20 March 18 7:00 PM Done   MA Cambridge AMC Loews Harvard Square 5 March 19 7:00 PM Done   MI Grand Rapids Grand Rapids First March 4 3:30 PM Done   MN Bloomington AMC Mall of America 14 March 20 7:00 PM Done   MO Creve Coeur (St. Louis) AMC Creve Coeur 12 March 12 7:00 PM Done   MO Kansas City Ward Parkway Theater March 4 7:00 PM Done   NC Charlotte AMC Carolina Pavilion 22 March 10 7:00 PM Done   NM Albuquerque Century Rio 24 March 6 2:00 PM Done   OH Brooklyn (Cleveland) AMC Ridge Park Square 8 March 19 7:00 PM Done   TN Franklin Carmike Thoroughbred 20 March 10 7:00 PM Done   TX Houston River Oaks Theatre March 13 7:00 PM Done   TX San Antonio Santikos Palladium IMAX March 12 7:00 PM Done   Even the DI is now suggesting that they show it to participants, albeit in a venue stacked with paid prevaricators. Glen D -------------- http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

Jkrebs Posts: 590 Joined: Sep. 2004 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,23:12    Oops - mistake - disregard.

podzolboy Posts: 8 Joined: Dec. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 22 2008,23:14    Go away for a few days and swear off my little guilty pleasure of enjoying a slow motion car wreck and comeback to find out I missed the the funniest event of the year (its early). I'm heartbroken although I see the spin doctors are operating furiously trying to save whats left of the patient.  The tard pump is primed and I am not ashamed to say I'm going to enjoy this.  :)

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,02:20    Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 22 2008,22:49) There are people claiming vociferously that the animations used were the Illustra media ones. Given that PZ has the DVD with some portion of the animation used on it, he should be able to do some side-by-side comparisons and put this to rest one way or the other. But I think that relying on recall alone probably isn't sufficient in this case. There's also a short snippet in the Pat Robertson interview that UD linked to.  It's only short, but it looks similar to the famous XVIVO animation.  If it's the same, I'm sure someone will be able to spot where exactly it's from. Ugh.  Going to UD to find a link to Robertson.  Well, I had to go for a shower anyway, so let's cut out one of them, and go straight to Pat.  It's about a minute in, wedged between Berlinski and Dembski. -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

stevestory Posts: 13407 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,02:49    Quote (Bob O'H @ Mar. 23 2008,03:20) Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ Mar. 22 2008,22:49) There are people claiming vociferously that the animations used were the Illustra media ones. Given that PZ has the DVD with some portion of the animation used on it, he should be able to do some side-by-side comparisons and put this to rest one way or the other. But I think that relying on recall alone probably isn't sufficient in this case. There's also a short snippet in the Pat Robertson interview that UD linked to.  It's only short, but it looks similar to the famous XVIVO animation.  If it's the same, I'm sure someone will be able to spot where exactly it's from. Ugh.  Going to UD to find a link to Robertson.  Well, I had to go for a shower anyway, so let's cut out one of them, and go straight to Pat.  It's about a minute in, wedged between Berlinski and Dembski. Hmm....Cordova, Behe, Dembski, Berlinski... Should we be suspicious of people whose names end in vowels? (I will point out, btw, that w/r/t Elsberry and Story, my grade school teacher informed me that y is only sometimes a vowel.)

Annyday Posts: 583 Joined: Nov. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,06:31    Mmmkay, I've gone over the XVIVO video and the second-long cut in Pat's program. I suspect I've been doing too much studying and too little sleeping or my brain is just at capacity for today, because I don't seem to be absorbing any scientific data any more. However, I believe that; 1) It's different. There's a passing resemblance between what, in the XVIVO animation, appears to be mRNA and the bit seen in the 700 club clip, but they're definitely different animations. Specifically, the XVIVO animation is pretty and the 700 club animation is not. Conceptually, however, they look very similar, as if someone went to an animation firm and said "we want you to remake that to get around copyright law". (This is shortly after 4:30 in Inner Life of a Cell here, should you want to see for yourself.) 2) They're also both framed against what looks like either the folds of mitochondria (can't remember the name of them?) or a Golgi apparatus in the background. My money's on a Golgi apparatus, since the next scene in the XVIVO animation features one in action and I don't think you could see the inside of mitochondria from a ribosome producing intercellular signaling molecules. This would be kind of like foreshadowing, except not since it's not a story. It could also be some random organelle unknown to me or a generic "biological-looking background". 3) Integrin reminds me of the Four Giants in Majora's Mask. These weird huge semi-anthropomorphic figures with no real heads raising their "arms" upwards to catch a large sphere, you know? Maybe it's just me. 4) Someone in some blog post somewhere I vaguely remember (or possibly it was Dawkins, I don't know) described Expelled having a shot of myosin V "walking" along an actin filament, which is kind of the iconic moment of the XVIVO video. Even if it is an original animation, this would fairly obviously be a conceptual ripoff to play on that same image. Conceptual ripoffs aren't really illegal, just really really lame. 5) Analyzing the Robertson bit might be totally meaningless, since they might have had those few seconds pulled from God-knows-where for no good reason instead of ripped straight off Expelled. I don't know why I bothered doing this. To see what I meant regarding the integrin, though, you can click this. Is the resemblance not obvious?! Edited for typos. -------------- "ALL eight of the "nature" miracles of Jesus could have been accomplished via the electroweak quantum tunneling mechanism. For example, walking on water could be accomplished by directing a neutrino beam created just below Jesus' feet downward." - Frank Tipler, ISCID fellow

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,11:14    More on the video: http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwi....8005920 Quote Duae: We created the animation in conjunction with an animation studio and several cell biologists. It is a completely original work. The only similarity I can see between it and the Harvard animation is that it may portray one or more of the same cellular processes. But as far as I'm concerned, no one has copyrighted any cellular processes--at least not yet. I'm sure Craig Venter would like to. :) If Dawkins had stuck around to read the full credits for the film, he would have known this. It has nothing to do with the Illustra animation. Posted by: Kevin Miller | March 23, 2008 at 08:09 AM -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,11:18    Also, Read more Allan MacNeill and the response... http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwi....8000512 Quote Interesting: I was expelled from "Expelled" because my interview was "boring." Surprising, then, that my students have twice nominated me as the outstanding lecturer at Cornell University and that I was given a special award for my teaching by the Cornell Learning Skills Center. But maybe I was a little boring in that interview. After all, I didn't use ad hominem attacks against my opponents, nor did I try winning a Godwin Award (for most egregious application of Godwin's Law), nor did I lie from the beginning to the end of the interview the way the film makers did. Silly me! And all of that beside the point, it still doesn't explain why Will Provine's interview (with essentially the same content, but probably a little more pizazz) was also omitted. It couldn't possibly have to do with the fact that he and I invite IDers and YECs to make presentations in our evolution courses, and that this fact totally undermines the basic premise of "Expelled"? Oops, sorry, I forgot: as Ben Stein (a towering intellect in political history, philosophy, and science) has said repeatedly, "No Darwin, no Hitler." Or, to put it even more succinctly, "No integrity, no audience." Posted by: Allen_MacNeill | March 23, 2008 at 06:20 AM http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwi....8005768 Quote Wow, this is getting really petty and ridiculous. Sorry to rain on your little witch hunt, Allen, but Will Provine has a very prominent role in our film. As for your interview, perhaps boring was too strong of a word. In making this film, I sat through dozens of hours of footage. Some of it stood out, and most of it didn't. Yours was in the latter category. Who knows, it may end up somewhere in the DVD extras. You're looking for a conspiracy where there is none. Posted by: Kevin Miller | March 23, 2008 at 08:06 AM -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

kevinmillerxi Posts: 92 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,11:54    Hey Richard: As I said on my blog, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm under no obligation to be objective. As a journalist supposedly reporting the news for a major daily, Cornelia Hunter is.

Bob O'H Posts: 2564 Joined: Oct. 2005 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,11:59    Hang on, so Allen was deemed too boring in a film narrated by Ben Stein?! Allen - give up teaching.  Now. -------------- It is fun to dip into the various threads to watch cluelessness at work in the hands of the confident exponent. - Soapy Sam (so say we all)

Dr.GH Posts: 2333 Joined: May 2002 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:13    Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 23 2008,09:54) Hey Richard: As I said on my blog, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm under no obligation to be objective. As a journalist supposedly reporting the news for a major daily, Cornelia Hunter is. No, as a propagandist you have no obligation to be objective, nor honest. Edited by Dr.GH on Mar. 23 2008,10:14 -------------- "Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy." L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:17    Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 23 2008,11:54) Hey Richard: As I said on my blog, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm under no obligation to be objective. As a journalist supposedly reporting the news for a major daily, Cornelia Hunter is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivity_(journalism) Quote Journalistic objectivity can refer to fairness, disinterestedness, factuality, and nonpartisanship, but most often encompasses all of these qualities. Fairness and factuality. Well, I suppose you got some of the facts, selectively. That is why your film is propaganda and not advocacy journalism. -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:26    More Allan: http://www.uncommondescent.com/expelle....-190158 Quote 84 Allen_MacNeill 03/23/2008 11:39 am Phinehas asked (in #83): “With your “liar” charges here, are you making a substantive rebuttal against the film’s main premise regarding academic persecution? Or are you using a classical diversionary tactic?” The point I have been trying to make since my very first post is precisely the point that the main premise of the film “Expelled” — that ID supporters/evolution critics are unfairly “expelled” from academic discussions — is, in fact, a deliberate falsification. I have presented as evidence the fact ID supporters/evolution critics are regularly invited to make presentations at my evolution courses at Cornell, and have done so repeatedly in the past. However, this fact was deliberately omitted from the film. In brief, the central premise of the film “Expelled” is a deliberate lie, a lie that was perpetrated on all of the evolutionary biologists who were invited to participate of whom I am aware. What other conclusion would you draw from this evidence? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:31    Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 23 2008,11:54) Hey Richard: As I said on my blog, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm under no obligation to be objective. As a journalist supposedly reporting the news for a major daily, Cornelia Hunter is. Interesting (freudian) slip. Cornelia Dean is a journalist. Cornelius Hunter is a creationist and DI Fellow. Which one do you think is more likely to be objective about Kevin's propaganda flick? -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:35    Quote (Albatrossity2 @ Mar. 23 2008,12:31) Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 23 2008,11:54) Hey Richard: As I said on my blog, as a documentary filmmaker, I'm under no obligation to be objective. As a journalist supposedly reporting the news for a major daily, Cornelia Hunter is. Interesting (freudian) slip. Cornelia Dean is a journalist. Cornelius Hunter is a creationist and DI Fellow. Which one do you think is more likely to be objective about Kevin's propaganda flick? Oh. Dear. Was the fact checking as rigorous in Crossroads Expelled? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

kevinmillerxi Posts: 92 Joined: Feb. 2008 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:42    Oh wow, you caught me, guys. Pants down and on fire! Anything to avoid the real issue I guess.

Richardthughes Posts: 11178 Joined: Jan. 2006 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:53    The real issue? That Big Science is persecuting IDists! (except when it isn't, but we cut those bits out.) I'm sure you talk at length about [] The Wedge Document [] That the discovery Institute is funded by post-millenial reconstructionists. [] "Cdesign proponentism" [] The lack of an ID Theory or Hypothesis Rather than trying to link Darwin with Hitler like every other creobot that has come before. Quote I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2 Quote I had so often sung 'Deutschland über Alles' and shouted 'Heil' at the top of my lungs, that it seemed to me almost a belated act of grace to be allowed to stand as a witness in the divine court of the eternal judge and proclaim the sincerity of this conviction. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5 Quote Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5 Quote What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8 Quote It doesn't dawn on this depraved bourgeois world that this is positively a sin against all reason; that it is criminal lunacy to keep on drilling a born half-ape until people think they have made a lawyer out of him, while millions of members of the highest culture-race must remain in entirely unworthy positions; that it is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator if His most gifted beings by the hundreds and hundreds of thousands are allowed to degenerate in the present proletarian morass, while Hottentots and Zulu Kaffirs are trained for intellectual professions. - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 2 In that last one, is he appealing to Darwin, or the Biblical tradition of genocide? -------------- "Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield "You magnificent bastard! " : Louis "ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard "I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932 "...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

Albatrossity2 Posts: 2780 Joined: Mar. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:55    Quote (kevinmillerxi @ Mar. 23 2008,12:42) Oh wow, you caught me, guys. Pants down and on fire! Anything to avoid the real issue I guess. Remind me again, Kevin.  What is the "real issue"? The fact that your film repeats oft-refuted bullshit about Darwin and Hitler? The fact that your producers seem incapable of understanding the hypocrisy of expelling someone who appeared in the movie from a screening of the movie? The fact that MacNeill's interview revealed facts that seem to be at odds with the the premise of the movie, and coincidentally seems to be missing from the movie? Or the fact that ID is not science, has led to exactly zero scientific predictions, observations, or breakthroughs, and thus deserves to be expelled from science journals and classrooms? I'd appreciate it if you could help me focus on the real issues. thanks -------------- Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind Has been obligated from the beginning To create an ordered universe As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.                         - Pattiann Rogers

hooligans Posts: 114 Joined: Jan. 2007 (Permalink) Posted: Mar. 23 2008,12:57    What is the real issue? To me it seems like the issue is as follows: 1: You made a movie wherein those asked to do interviews where asked to do so under false pretenses. You knew they would never agree to a partake in a ID/Creationist piece of propaganda, so you tricked them. 2: Your movie is just plain bad. 3: You are saying that ID has nothing to do with religion, but your actions and connections say otherwise 4: During a free screening PZ was expelled for no apparent reason. Those responsible, lied about why he was expelled. They got caught lying. 5: Your movie tries to conflate Hitler and Genocide with "Darwinism". But it doesn't examine the relationship between Hitler and Religion. Why? I thought you just wanted to look at all the angles? 6: Finally, you are a tool

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