J-Dog
Posts: 4402 Joined: Dec. 2006
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Quote (keiths @ Feb. 29 2008,13:48) | Allow me to spell out Richard's point in a little more detail.
The typical theist believes the following:
1. God exists. 2. God is omniscient. 3. God is omnipotent. 4. God wants every one of us to know him and accept his message.
If these four statements are true, what can we conclude?
2a. If God is omniscient, then he knows exactly what conditions are required to convince each of us to believe in him. 3a. If God is omnipotent, then he is capable of bringing about those conditions. 4a. If he wants us to believe in him, then he will provide us with those conditions.
Yet not all of us believe in him, and so at least one of those four assumptions must be incorrect.
A Calvinist like Heddle would argue that #4 is incorrect, because God does not want all of us to know him. Only some of us are predestined to be saved; the rest are predestined to suffer eternal damnation. This position is at least logically consistent, though it paints God in a rather unflattering light.
Others argue that #4 is incorrect because God only wants us to believe in him if we freely choose to do so. According to them, if God provided overwhelming evidence of his existence, then he would in effect be forcing us to believe in him. We would all be deprived of our free will, contrary to God's intention.
This argument falls apart on closer examination. Suppose God only presents evidence strong enough to convince half of us that he exists. Well, according to the logic of the argument, half of us are then being deprived of our free will.
In fact, the only way for God to preserve everyone's free will, by that argument, is for him to make sure that nobody is convinced by the evidence. Quite a different picture from the one that most theists paint. |
Keiths: I think what you are saying is known as the Epicuras Paradox:
"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?" —
Epicurus, as quoted in 2000 Years of Disbelief
Which just goes to show, they knew Skeptic was full of shit, 2500 years ago.
-------------- Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10
Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08
UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11
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