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+--Forum: After the Bar Closes...
+---Topic: Kent Hovind on tape started by GCT


Posted by: GCT on Feb. 15 2007,16:13

Here are Kent's taped phone conversations from jail.

< http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2007....om.html >
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 15 2007,16:16

uh, before one even lends an ear, is this one of those "guranteed to cause brain cell death" kinda things?
Posted by: GCT on Feb. 15 2007,18:09

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 15 2007,17:16)
uh, before one even lends an ear, is this one of those "guranteed to cause brain cell death" kinda things?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Quite possibly yes.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 15 2007,18:27

see?

now that's the kinda honesty creobots just can't deliver.

;)
Posted by: Dr.GH on Feb. 15 2007,19:55

What I want is the sentencing hearing transcript!

The phone calls convinced me that Hovind is actually insane.  He wasn't faking, it was not just a con-job, he is utterly insane.  :O
Posted by: J-Dog on Feb. 15 2007,20:28

I would like to know what DaveScot's take is on this...
Martyer For The Cause?
Another Dembski Disciple?
Tax Cheatin' Poltroon?
Just another Bozo in the Big Tent?
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Feb. 15 2007,20:29

So, is it a "woe is me" speech, or a "I'm locked up with all these evilutionists" speech, or a "send me your money" speech, or a "the Zionist Occupation Government got me!" speech, or a "how I'm helping these poor men to Jaysus" speech, or a "something really hurts down there" speech, or what?
Posted by: BWE on Feb. 16 2007,07:47

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA . I'm sorry. That just came out. I listened to them. If you enjoy laughing at people like him, you will like these recordings.

By the way, OT, did someone make a post using my account a couple of weeks ago? Does anyone know where that might be? One of my many night shifts that turned into late morning maybe?
Posted by: Kristine on Feb. 16 2007,11:53



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So, is it a "woe is me" speech, or a "I'm locked up with all these evilutionists" speech, or a "send me your money" speech, or a "the Zionist Occupation Government got me!" speech, or a "how I'm helping these poor men to Jaysus" speech, or a "something really hurts down there" speech, or what?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


All of those arguments at once, PLUS THE KICKER:

“If they let me out of prison, I shall forgive them [the IRS].” *Strikes pose* “But if they don’t let me out of here [and I must say I detected a bit of, “Lemme outa here! Lemme the #### outa here!”], I shall go after them. I’ll sue them. Again. One for every little mistake they’ve made, and they’ve made a lot of mistakes!” *Shakes fist* [Yeah, the IRS really loused it up Hovie, and that’s why you’re in the clink. Right.] “But if I don’t get outa here [ “Lemme outa here! Waahh!] I’m going after them, blah” yakkity-yak.

What a deluded nincompoop. :D
Posted by: deadman_932 on Feb. 16 2007,16:08

8 years and 6 months or so for Hovind to ponder this turn of events -- 540 days maximum "good time" with no earlier parole available at the Fed level, unless he gets a Bush pardon or some such thing. I expect ol' Kent to display a wide range of emotions before it's all over. What I really hope for is acknowledgement of wrongdoing and just a touch of genuine contrition.
But, like Doc G.H. posted, I also don't think Hovind's sane: he's convinced himself of his own delusions. Reminds me of AFDave, really.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 16 2007,16:22

indeed, the patterns are very similar, but not just for these two.

again, this keeps bringing me back to this whole creobotism thing being more related to psychology than religion.

religion is just "the enabler", for the underlying psychological malady.

I keep scanning for sites that are looking into researching this aspect of it, but it appears there is little indication anyone witn a science blog is considering the issue on that level consistently (oh, there is brief recognition from time to time, but no consistent attempts to examine the issue from that perspective).

Unfortunate, as an approach that really looks at the underlying causation will be the only real productive way of approaching a solution in the long term, IMO.
Posted by: Kristine on Feb. 16 2007,16:56

I have been doing a lot of thinking about that, actually. (I got hammered at Pharyngula of all places for suggesting that creationism, not religious beliefs, was an indication of a neurotic disorder—“I wouldn’t say they’re crazy!”—well, that’s not what I said.) ;)

I remember a study done with subjects who held racist ideas: they were asked to look at a series of slides in which there were drawings of cats that gradually “morphed” into drawings of dogs. Those who held firm racist attitudes would insist that the drawing that was clearly of a dog was a “cat.” I thought of this again when a friend of mine, a prominent atheist in the Twin Cities who goes and speaks at Bible colleges about evolution, science, religion, etc., talked last night of showing the students examples of transitional fossils, and they insist that they still “don’t see it.”

Yes, there’s definitely a huge psychological component to this. After my talk on learning behaviors I got so many new ideas from the class discussion that I’d love to test the idea further, specifically regarding students learning about evolution. (I just don't know when I could find time to do it, however.)
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 16 2007,17:10

yeah, you watch guys like Airhead Dave long enough, and you begin to see the self-reinforcing delusions common to people suffering from schizophrenia.

I don't think it's just a coincidence.
Posted by: GCT on Feb. 16 2007,17:14

Quote (BWE @ Feb. 16 2007,08:47)
By the way, OT, did someone make a post using my account a couple of weeks ago? Does anyone know where that might be? One of my many night shifts that turned into late morning maybe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think it was on Avo's thread.
Posted by: BWE on Feb. 16 2007,17:52

Found it. Er. I feel pretty drn sheepish.



The lady who wrote that has also written a few other things. Er, published in other places. Not as me. Although, I can dream. Guess I need to remember to shut down my computer when I'm not there.
Posted by: Kristine on Feb. 16 2007,23:17

About those psychological factors: this (via EBSCO) is pretty darn weird.  

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Interhemispheric interaction and beliefs on our origin: Degree of handedness predicts beliefs in creationism versus evolution.  Niebauer, Christopher Lee; Christman, Stephen D.; Reid, Scott A.; Laterality: Asymmetries of Body, Brain and Cognition, Vol 9(4), Oct 2004. pp. 433-447.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's available as a PDF. I don't know what I think of a supposed correlation between strong "handedness" and creationism, although it would perhaps explain all those engineers, and...

...well, it would also explain how Hovie's spending most of his time in prison.  :p
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 17 2007,00:29

Did you happen to catch that twin study looking at heritability of "extreme religious behavior" (read: fundamentalism) that was published a couple years back?

I can dig up the reference for you if you are interested.
Posted by: Kristine on Feb. 17 2007,11:34

Yeah, if you can get me the citation, I would definitely be interested.  :)
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 17 2007,15:27

this includes the reference, and the original discussion of the paper on PT:

< http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2005/03/genes_contribut.html >

here's the link to the abstract in pubmed:

< http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez....bstract >


If you want to get an intro to the field of evo psych, I found this site useful:

< http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/index.html >

You will find just as much friction to it now, as Lewontin generated in the early days of sociobiology.

true enough, just like with early sociobiology, evo psych also makes some mistaken assumptions IMO (as well as a seeming lack of knowledge of the history of ethology at times), but the application of evolutionary theory to human behavior has been (and will continue to be) a productive approach.
Posted by: Kristine on Feb. 20 2007,10:52

Thanks a bunch, Ichthyic. :) I was able to pull the PDF of the original article from Journal of Personality via your link (and as it turns out I have heard of this study).

I'll check out the evo psych link too. I'm iffy about that stuff, although as long as their methodology is sound I’m open to it.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 20 2007,11:40

Quote (Kristine @ Feb. 16 2007,16:56)
I have been doing a lot of thinking about that, actually. (I got hammered at Pharyngula of all places for suggesting that creationism, not religious beliefs, was an indication of a neurotic disorder—“I wouldn’t say they’re crazy!”—well, that’s not what I said.) ;)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My experiences of religion where all fun, boring or comforting until I started on this little adventure.

It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 23 2007,21:38

< http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr04/beliefs.html >

yeah, it's a few years old.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Feb. 24 2007,07:00

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 20 2007,11:40)
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.    ;)
Posted by: Alan Fox on Feb. 24 2007,08:45



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I don't think it's just a coincidence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It is the people, not the ideas, that need watching. When "Communism fell" many apparatchiks moved seamlessly into the emerging "democratic" parties. Now ID is fatally damaged, opportunists will attempt to exploit another vehicle for their ambitions. Hopefully, the global warming issue will not turn out to be such a vehicle.

Plus ça change...
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,14:20

Quote (Alan Fox @ Feb. 24 2007,08:45)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I don't think it's just a coincidence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It is the people, not the ideas, that need watching. When "Communism fell" many apparatchiks moved seamlessly into the emerging "democratic" parties. Now ID is fatally damaged, opportunists will attempt to exploit another vehicle for their ambitions. Hopefully, the global warming issue will not turn out to be such a vehicle.

Plus ça change...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can you expand on that Alan?

TBH, I haven't got a clue as to what you mean.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,14:37

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 24 2007,07:00)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 20 2007,11:40)
It is only since reading at PT etc that I found religion/religious people that are disturbing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oddly, it was only since reading at PT that I found ANTI-religious people thare disturbing.    ;)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh yes,
I remember that.
It can be quite scarey when people wish to impose thier opinions onto others.
Key words are opinion and impose.
It bothers me not when people wish to persuade with evidence. That is fine.

Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
Posted by: Bing on Feb. 24 2007,16:45

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 24 2007,17:12



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,19:48

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,17:12)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,19:55

Quote (Bing @ Feb. 24 2007,16:45)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.
Posted by: k.e on Feb. 24 2007,20:10

Quote (Bing @ Feb. 25 2007,00:45)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today. He was sorta alone (as in he did not have a coleague), he did have his young (bored looking) son with him.

It was quite amazing with the arguments he used. Micro/Macro evolution, Why do we still have monkeys, The list of scientists etc etc where all mentioned. This site gave me enough counter-arguments to send him packing without being rude. He didn't even leave me the pamphlets he was going to.

This place and PT had me well prepared in my arguments. Seen them before and had answers/refutations.

With hindsight I could have handled it better. Invited him in and show him where he had been lied to.

OTOH I did not want to upset him too much. I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's where you and I differ.  I had one coming to my door every Saturday for weeks on end.  He seemed like a nice old geezer but polite requests to leave me alone and not knock on my door were ignored.

So finally fed up, I invited him in.  When I asked him to light the candles in the points of the pentagram that I had painted on the basement floor while I went and got the chicken he took off like a scalded cat.

And the next week I saw him cross the street as he walked up the sidewalk.  Guess I musta scared him or something?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Brilliant!

Not that I would do anything like that (stifled guffaw).

What was going on in that guy's head?

The thought of the equally real 'other' invading his earthly carcass? Why not? At least he was aware that it had already happened once.

When he walks down a street does he see demons and devils which are by comparison just as real as his gods?

The fear of the fear that made him jump in through the door of a church of loonies who ......surprise surprise confirmed his deepest fears.

The thought that his character was too weak to counteract someone strong and free enough to perform satanic acts in his own basement? And his fear that he could be sucked in just as easily to his cult of current choice.

If you wait long enough they all give themselves away.

Empty words, nice uniforms and one whole day a week devoted to stroking inner fears by the self deluded. Religion.... can't shoot it, can't eat it
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 24 2007,21:09

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:48)
 
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,17:12)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I believe that he thought he was doing good work.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



and THAT'S the real problem.

instead of taking down his arguments, I would suggest a more productive approach would be to show the DAMAGE his "good work" has and is causing to education in this country.

then he can ask himself where his arguments went wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


yes, more difficult, but I would use studies like that in the nat. geo. issue on evolution that came out a couple of years ago (nov 2004 I think) where the there was data on the influence of extreme religious indoctrination on education.

or, you could go and show him data on the trends in homeschooled kids over the last few decades, and see how well in the sciences these religiously homeschooled kids have placed on standard tests.

or you could talk in more general terms of the impacts of science and technology on the economy of the US - talk about the role of science in medicine; the role of evolution, for example, in cancer research and epidemiology.

by teaching kids falsities about science in general, they are causing direct damage to the future quality of life of the very people they want to "help".

I'm just scratching the surface here; entire books have been written on the subject, which you might want to read.

one that pops off the top of my head is the Ehrlich's "The Betrayal of Science and Reason"

< http://www.amazon.com/Betraya....9634847 >

IOW, there are many different directions you can take to show that breeding ignorance causes direct damage to the very quality of life we have come to expect as "1st worlders".

and it saves you having to counter every little bit of ignorant claptrap they try to spew at you, unless, like myself, you actually enjoy wasting their time by doing just that.

for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Feb. 24 2007,21:40

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,14:37)
Coincidently, I had a Jehova's witness at my door today.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My favorite tactic for dealing with Witnesses (and any other fundy nutters who came to my door):

For years, I kept a large collection of reptiles and exotic animals in my house (I used to do educational talks and shows for school classes, scout troops, etc).  One of my pets was an adult black racer snake, wildcaught -- about four feet long, glossy black, very fast, very alert, and hated humans with an absolute passion.  Every time his cage was approached, he'd instantly rear up in the classic S-shaped snake-attack position.  Everyone who saw him assumed he was some sort of mamba or something.

Also had a tank full of African emperor scorpions.  The largest scorp species in the world -- eight inches tip to tip, huge pincers, with a highly visible stinger at least a quarter-inch long at the end of their graceful curving tail.  Glossy black.  The most evil-looking thing you can imagine.

Both critters were, of course, utterly harmless to humans.  

So, whenever the god-botherers would show up, I'd invite them in and sit them down, on a love seat that just happened to be right between these two cages.  After they had a good long look, I'd ask to borrow their Bible, and open it to Luke 10:19:

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,  and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

I then asked them to go ahead and demonstrate their faith in the Bible by opening either cage and handing me its occupant.  Their choice which one.


For some odd reason, no one ever took me up on my offer, and they all decided that they had better places to be.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,21:41

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 24 2007,21:54

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 24 2007,21:40)
...

"Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions,  and over all the power of the enemy; and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

I then asked them to go ahead and demonstrate their faith in the Bible by opening either cage and handing me its occupant.  Their choice which one.


For some odd reason, no one ever took me up on my offer, and they all decided that they had better places to be.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ROFL. Now that is pretty funny. Not an option for me though (I have no pets).

TBH, I didn't really mind the visit. I found it quite interesting and was fair pleased that my exposure to here and PT bore some fruit. It was a tad surprising that he was using arguments that had been discussed here many times.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 24 2007,22:52



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
One of my pets was an adult black racer snake
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



ouch.

especially the wild caught ones.

unless they were different in your neck o the woods, those things are some of the nastiest snakes I've ever tried to catch.

at least they're not poisonous.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 24 2007,22:55

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 25 2007,12:40

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,22:55)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
 
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.
Posted by: Alan Fox on Feb. 25 2007,14:40

Stephen asks:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Can you expand on that Alan?

TBH, I haven't got a clue as to what you mean.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I was just saying that whilst you and I might try to convince others with logic, reason and evidence, some with political ambitions or aspiring cult leaders adopt and discard ideas as expediency dictates. Their motive is not to expand the boundaries of human knowledge but to gain power and control for its own sake.

I doubt that, for example, Pol Pot, could have been dissuaded from his takeover of Cambodia by a lively debate of the issues. ID was important for what it was thought might be delivered politically, those who were using it have not gone away, and will still need watching.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 25 2007,15:34



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org
Posted by: GCT on Feb. 25 2007,15:40

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.
Posted by: "Rev Dr" Lenny Flank on Feb. 25 2007,16:03

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,22:52)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
One of my pets was an adult black racer snake
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



ouch.

especially the wild caught ones.

unless they were different in your neck o the woods, those things are some of the nastiest snakes I've ever tried to catch.

at least they're not poisonous.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I used them in talks because they were the snake most of the kids were likely to have seen.  I would always say to them, "The good news is that you probably won't catch them anyway.  The bad news is that you just MIGHT."     ;>


I had him for years, fed him, cleaned him, cared for him like a child -- and he still bit me every chance he had.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 25 2007,17:32

Quote (GCT @ Feb. 25 2007,15:40)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ahh, thanks.
Posted by: GCT on Feb. 25 2007,18:35

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,18:32)
Quote (GCT @ Feb. 25 2007,15:40)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,16:34)
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Went to buy it today (Idiocracy). Tried 2 shops, niether had it. Will have to order it online.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



hmm, you might also look for a torrent of it; it wasn't a widely popular movie (it was made by the South Park guys, IIRC), so you might try just looking for it on thepiratebay.org
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mike Judge made it.  He's the guy behind Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill.  He also did Office Space, an all time classic.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


ahh, thanks.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No worries bro.
Posted by: stevestory on Feb. 25 2007,18:48

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,23:55)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,21:41)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You know what? I consider that to be the most likely scenario.

A tad depressing but it does seem to be happening (at least as far as the UK is concerned).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


oh, i really recommend you check out that movie if you haven't seen it yet.

rent the DVD or grab a torrent of it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Florida is a terrible and crazy place to be, though there are some upsides. Every few months a screaming girlfriend demands that you remove a snake from her bedroom. Whereupon you go in, and find a harmless green snake, and grab him by the tail, and sling him into the woods in the back yard, and consequently appear to be Conan the Barbarian. And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Feb. 25 2007,19:22



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



gator wrangler?
Posted by: Mike PSS on Feb. 25 2007,21:11

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 25 2007,20:22)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
And lets just say there are worse things to be, boyfriend-wise.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



gator wrangler?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In Florida...

Facility Maintenance at a retirement trailer park.

That scene could generate a TV series all on its own.
Posted by: Lou FCD on Feb. 26 2007,06:59

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:55)
That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stephen, it's only a lie if you don't really have the pentagram, candles, and chicken.

Just a thought.

:D
Posted by: Lou FCD on Feb. 26 2007,07:04

Quote ("Rev Dr" Lenny Flank @ Feb. 25 2007,16:03)
I had him for years, fed him, cleaned him, cared for him like a child -- and he still bit me every chance he had.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Sounds like my kids.

Just sayin'.

:D
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Feb. 26 2007,12:24

Quote (Lou FCD @ Feb. 26 2007,06:59)
Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Feb. 24 2007,19:55)
That is not an action that I would use. Main reason being, it would involve me having to lie. That is not an option that I am willing to do.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Stephen, it's only a lie if you don't really have the pentagram, candles, and chicken.

Just a thought.

:D
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


LOL!
Made me laugh.
Physically, I don't even have a basement (there is a river within a few feet of my backdoor{makes a basement somewhat problematic}).
But, (and I suspect you know) it wasn't the physical reality that I would consider dishonest. It was the mental atitude (and I don't posses a live chicken).
I am just not prepared for a hospitable Satanic visit (very remiss of me, I guess). Still, got some ebola and a flaming torch.
Posted by: J-Dog on Feb. 26 2007,21:12

Man, you guys are easy... I always tell them I had a vision from God, and He told me that they are going to ####.  There is nothing they can say to counter that, and I have had excellent results.  Which means of course, that I get left alone.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Mar. 01 2007,00:49

BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 01 2007,04:32

Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


According to < Amazon > it isn't released just yet.
Sure does explain why I had a problem locating one in the shops.   :-)
Posted by: don_quixote on Mar. 01 2007,09:16

Found a torrent for < Idiocracy > at thepiratebay. It really does seem to divide opinion!
Posted by: Ichthyic on Mar. 01 2007,17:22

Quote (don_quixote @ Mar. 01 2007,09:16)
Found a torrent for < Idiocracy > at thepiratebay. It really does seem to divide opinion!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


for future reference, there is a reason I mentioned using my PM.

I don't think Wes has a problem with posting links to places like PirateBay, but others might, if you get my drift.

just a suggestion.

btw, it came out in 2005, IIRC, and you can certainly rent it:

< http://www.netflix.com/MovieDi....0028899 >

if you don't want to buy it:

< http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000K7VHOG/km-20/ref=nosim >
Posted by: don_quixote on Mar. 01 2007,18:40

Point taken, Ichthyic. That was indeed inconsiderate of me.
Posted by: Ichthyic on Mar. 01 2007,18:56

no worries
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 04 2007,06:01

Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just pre-ordered it at Amazon. It isn't due for release over here until about the 19th of this month. Still, I ordered "office space" as well and should get that about Wed.
Posted by: GCT on Mar. 04 2007,07:13

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 04 2007,07:01)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Feb. 24 2007,21:09)
for fun, you might try seeing if you can find the movie:

Idiocracy

It's kind of like what will happen if the ignorant end up outbreeding all the smart people.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just pre-ordered it at Amazon. It isn't due for release over here until about the 19th of this month. Still, I ordered "office space" as well and should get that about Wed.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Office Space is very funny IMO.  Let us know how you like it.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 06 2007,13:11

Quote (GCT @ Mar. 04 2007,07:13)
Office Space is very funny IMO.  Let us know how you like it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Got it today. Just finished watching it. I thought it was Ok and quite funny but nothing special. Having said that, I have only just watched it and most reports say it is better on 2nd (or 3rd) viewing.

The start was very astute on the way people behave (I am talking about the traffic jam). An awfull lot of people will still drive, even when walking is quicker.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 20 2007,13:45

Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Idiocracy arrived this morning. Seen it twice and consider it very funny (but scarily plausible).

Trouble is that last night I watched the Corporation.
Now that was quite a frightening hypothesis.

< http://www.thecorporation.com/ >

Have you seen it? If so, what do you think about it?
Posted by: GCT on Mar. 20 2007,18:07

Quote (Stephen Elliott @ Mar. 20 2007,13:45)
Quote (Ichthyic @ Mar. 01 2007,00:49)
BTW, if someone is looking for Idiocracy and they really can't locate it, let me know (PM).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Idiocracy arrived this morning. Seen it twice and consider it very funny (but scarily plausible).

Trouble is that last night I watched the Corporation.
Now that was quite a frightening hypothesis.

< http://www.thecorporation.com/ >

Have you seen it? If so, what do you think about it?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've seen "The Corporation" and it is indeed pretty scary, especially since it's not hard to believe.
Posted by: Stephen Elliott on Mar. 22 2007,13:34

Quote (GCT @ Mar. 20 2007,17:07)
...
I've seen "The Corporation" and it is indeed pretty scary, especially since it's not hard to believe.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Although I suspect some considerable bias in it's making, I doubt that the "facts" presented are very far off the mark. Overall, it does look as though we are headed to #### in a handbasket and it is mostly of our own making. I dread the World that my great-grandchildren arrive in.
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 24 2007,15:08

Seen < The Hovind Music Video > yet?

Funny, funny stuff.
Posted by: Steverino on June 25 2007,19:51

To paraphrase from the movie "Fletch", Kent Hovind molests Collies.
Posted by: Ichthyic on June 25 2007,20:33

i finally watched that "homage to Hovind".

heh, I noticed the author used an image i posted to this very board a year or so ago (the BW of the head-up-ass fella).  It had to be that one, because I edited it out of a magazine ad from way back in 1997, and stripped out a lot of the overlying advertising text.

but of course, now I'm going to have the chorus running around my head the rest of the day...

"You're a fucktard... Aren't you Kent?"
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on Dec. 14 2007,07:10

Bump.

< Jesus' General >has a post entitled "The Wit and Wisdom of Dr. Dino", with some choice quotes from Hovind, e.g.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
If evolution is true, you could not know that it's true because your brain is nothing but chemicals. Think about that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

.
But, per usual for that blog, the best stuff is in the comments...

Enjoy!
Posted by: stevestory on Dec. 14 2007,07:46

wow.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

One theory is that the pre-Flood Earth had a canopy of ice above it that squeezed the atmosphere down to, say, 15 miles [...] If you squeezed the air down to 15 miles - instead of 100 - it would be more clear because there would be less distortion - atmospheric twinkle it's called. And probably this canopy of ice would act as a photo-amplifier where you would actually see things much more clearly. That's one theory that [in] the pre-Flood world you don't need a telescope - you could see incredibly well.
Truth Radio 2 October 2006 @ 19:45
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



If you can read that and not notice that it's completely insane...



...yew jess might be a creationist.
Posted by: stevestory on Dec. 14 2007,07:48



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

In spite of their ferocious look, many people would probably argue the T-Rex was a vegetarian. The ferocious teeth would have been great for, you know, crushing stuffed pumpkins or something, you know. I don't know if it has ever been proven they were meat eaters. There is plenty of evidence from cracks in the enamel with chlorophyll stains in them indicating they were certainly eating plants.
Truth Radio 28 September 2006 @ 10:00 (Tape 1)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------





"MMMMM TOFURKEY!"
Posted by: Lou FCD on Dec. 14 2007,07:51

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 24 2007,16:08)
Seen < The Hovind Music Video > yet?

Funny, funny stuff.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Same tune, < Even funnier video... >
Posted by: stevestory on Dec. 14 2007,07:51



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
Truth Radio 1 August 2006 (Tape 1)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




Posted by: Altabin on Dec. 14 2007,07:58

Quote (stevestory @ Dec. 14 2007,14:51)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
Truth Radio 1 August 2006 (Tape 1)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The phrase "I don't know if I could prove this" elevates standard-issue tard to immortal comedy.
Posted by: Lou FCD on Dec. 14 2007,08:01

Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.
Posted by: J-Dog on Dec. 14 2007,08:12

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think I see one of UD's newest posters beginning to take shape...  It works on so many levels.
Posted by: stevestory on Dec. 14 2007,08:13

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,09:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible.

all i can do is post this bit by Lewis Black, which pretty much sums it up.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
that's the kind of sentence that when your brain hears it, it comes to a screeching halt. And the left-hand side of the brain looks at the right-hand side of the brain and says, 'It's dark in here, and we may die.'
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Posted by: Lou FCD on Dec. 14 2007,08:27

Perhaps I should clarify:

I was speaking specifically of the "it wasn't Noah's fault, he didn't know" idea of the last bit there.

I've always wondered why Ham and all his descendants were cursed for Ham's accidental sighting of drunk-and-passed-out Noah's peepee, but there's no big smack-down of Noah for getting drunk and passing out.

So setting aside the "vapor canopy" crap and the question of whether Ham and his issue deserved to be bitch-slapped for something that was totally accidental (not to mention the "so what?" factor), the question I've never gotten even an attempt at an answer for was, "Why did Noah get let off the hook?"
Posted by: Assassinator on Dec. 18 2007,13:32



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Fair point Ichy. How would you suggest going about that? I wouldn't know where to start.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The bad things missionairy's did in South-America, Africa, and well all around the globe (and not only from 1 religion, or a religion at all, communism falls under that too imo)?
Posted by: Lou FCD on May 18 2008,19:09

Kent Hovind is the gift that keeps on giving.

The conversations with the invisible person in the sky continue on his blog, < and he's dreaming of a comeback >.  Now he's got Job, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, Ruth, and a host of others on a conference call.  Dude has totally lost it at this point.

HT: < Reverend Big Dumb Chimp >
Posted by: J-Dog on May 23 2008,08:14

Old Kent still moving and shaking, even though he's in jail.

I found this on PZ's Pharyngula:

< The Hovind Scale >

A handy metric for evaluating ID Cist and YEC comments.
Posted by: midwifetoad on May 23 2008,12:06

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Elsewhere in the Bible, "uncovering nakedness" means having sex with.
Posted by: Lou FCD on May 23 2008,12:45

Quote (midwifetoad @ May 23 2008,13:06)
 
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
 
Quote (Truth Radio @ 1 August 2006,(Tape 1))
I happen to believe - I don't know if I could prove this - I happen to believe that during the original creation with the canopy of water overhead, increased air pressure and filtered sunlight, fermentation was not possible. I don't think Noah knew what he was doing when he got drunk. It was an accident. He was used to making the grape juice [...] so I'm going to give Noah the benefit of the doubt and assume his getting drunk was purely accidental ignorance.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished for seeing his drunk ass dad naked, but the drunk ass dad didn't get in trouble at all.  It's almost endearing.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Elsewhere in the Bible, "uncovering nakedness" means having sex with.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I've heard that interpretation applied to this passage before, but if you think about it, that makes the passage even more problematic for at least two reasons:

1.  Why did Shem and Japeth have to back into the cave with the blanket to cover up drunk-ass dad if the problem was explicitly sex as opposed to nudity?

2.  Noah would have had to be really, really, really blasted drunk to not notice his son giving him the back-door treatment.

(Is it even possible to be that drunk?  I suppose it is, but is it possible to be that drunk accidentally?  I sure as hell wouldn't want to deal with the hangover the next day week, that's for sure.)

eh, it's as believable as anything else in the Bible, I suppose.  At least there weren't any zombies or talking snakes in that story.

(Edited for clarification)

(Edited again for particularly egregious abuse of English grammar.)


Posted by: Robert O'Brien on May 26 2008,13:19

Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


When I first glanced at this I thought you were referring to Ken Ham.  :D
Posted by: midwifetoad on May 26 2008,17:22

Quote (Robert O'Brien @ May 26 2008,13:19)
Quote (Lou FCD @ Dec. 14 2007,08:01)
Well, I have to admit that's the best explanation I've ever heard as to why Ham got punished...
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


When I first glanced at this I thought you were referring to Ken Ham.  :D
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Just wishing.
Posted by: angst on May 31 2008,00:43

From < CSE Blogs >:

     

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

–Send postcards and letters to:
Kent E. Hovind #06452-017
FCI Edgefield
P.O. BOX 725
Edgefield, SC. 29824 USA

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


LOL! I have nothing to say to teh servant of the lord tax evading prick but maybe you do. I'm sure he would appreciate hearing from you.  :D
Posted by: tmac1238 on June 28 2008,07:38

Our country fears defeated dictators, laughs at people who fear black helicopters, chase the world for WMDs, and after not finding, laugh at people declared to be insane all under your noses.

How did these absurd things happening to America happen under the noses of such intelligent people?  All over the internet are very intelligent people constantly giving everyone who disagrees with them mental diagnoses.  How can the insane things happening in the world today take place under their noses.

I fear black helicopters.  And by that fear no one died.  I snickered and giggled when I saw a defeated dictator playing with his rubber ducky in no-fly-zones.  How is it those who accounted themselves mentally superior, were terrified?
Posted by: tmac1238 on June 28 2008,07:59

What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?

Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!

So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?

We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).

The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.  Unfortunately, Saddam Hussein didn't have to suffer from this, but got literal due process.  And now, at the same time with the imposition of the Patriot Act, the federal government is struggling against our own borders, working to make the "undocumented (undocumented by the Patriot Act also) to feel comfortable here."

The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.  Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?
Posted by: Nerull on June 28 2008,08:19

Hovind *and* Black Helicopters. I guess the delusions come in groups.

You are the people dragging america backwards. Keep lying for Jesus!
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on June 28 2008,12:37

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,07:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


One down, many to go...
Posted by: GCT on June 28 2008,13:10

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:38)
How did these absurd things happening to America happen under the noses of such intelligent people?  All over the internet are very intelligent people constantly giving everyone who disagrees with them mental diagnoses.  How can the insane things happening in the world today take place under their noses.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Xian hegemony in this country has been going on for quite a bit longer than the intarwebs.
Posted by: GCT on June 28 2008,13:17

Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, he bilked people out of their money, he set back education in the country (which does affect us all), and he set tax-payers back with his tax evasion schemes (which also affects us all)...and that's just for starters.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Where he deserves to be.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nope, just those who break the law.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It does not say that anyone will be framed for crimes, and besides, Hovind wasn't framed.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And I don't support the Patriot Act, which incidentally, your friends in Christ enacted.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Which, again, your friends in Christ enacted.  Perhaps you and your Xian friends should denounce those other Xians.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why are you calling for propaganda?  Anyway, there are organizations that are fighting against the fascist leanings of our very Xian president...like the ACLU.  Perhaps you should support them.
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,16:35

I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?
Posted by: Richardthughes on June 30 2008,16:46

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I give your parody 7/10.
Posted by: Chayanov on June 30 2008,17:05

Needs more misspelled words and a lot more caps. Random font and color changes wouldn't hurt, either.
Posted by: dnmlthr on June 30 2008,17:09

+1 for paranoia though, that was a nice touch.
Posted by: American Saddlebred on June 30 2008,17:39

What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
Posted by: GCT on June 30 2008,17:41

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,18:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, better.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
creatard
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Excellent touch.
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,20:05

Quote (Richardthughes @ June 30 2008,16:46)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I give your parody 7/10.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What parody?

What do you mean 7/10?
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,20:11

Quote (Chayanov @ June 30 2008,17:05)
Needs more misspelled words and a lot more caps. Random font and color changes wouldn't hurt, either.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hey, even I know ALL CAPS is rude.  As for my spelling, well I guess it's better to shoot the messenger when you can't handle the message.

I'm trying to be polite here.  You guys are making it hard to have a real discussion.  And yes Dr. Hovind has shown the cowardise of Evolution lackeys and their masters.  I noticed that noone yet has agreed to debate Dr. Hovind.

While I've only been on here a little while, I've seen that professor from Florida, Joe Meart, and his half hearten attempt.  He won't agree to reasonable terms so he's, as we say it, "are blowing smoke".

One thing, why is "random caps" and "color changes" something to look for?
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 30 2008,20:12

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:05)
Quote (Richardthughes @ June 30 2008,16:46)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,16:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.

As for Dr. Hovinds' state of mind, what does what expect to see from a normally human person, a good man, a church going God-fearing man who is persecuted by the very forses that keep God out of schools?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I give your parody 7/10.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What parody?

What do you mean 7/10?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm a bit more discerning, and would have given 5, tops.

Anyone at all biting on this?
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,20:12

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your mocking me aren't you?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,20:16

Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 30 2008,20:17

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your mocking me aren't you?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


What gave it away?
Posted by: carlsonjok on June 30 2008,20:18

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your mocking me aren't you?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Only on the surface. Deep inside we are seeing our whole worldview collapse at the feet of your incisive logic.  We are scared of the dark that is enveloping us and we shake our fists at it in a futile attempt to stave off the inevitable.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,20:29

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.
Posted by: Dr.GH on June 30 2008,20:33

Quote (carlsonjok @ June 30 2008,18:18)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:12)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,17:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your mocking me aren't you?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Only on the surface. Deep inside we are seeing our whole worldview collapse at the feet of your incisive logic.  We are scared of the dark that is enveloping us and we shake our fists at it in a futile attempt to stave off the inevitable.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, I near pissed my pants with... well not really.

It isn't even that funny. If Icd is a pretend creato, we can do it better. If they are for real, then it is merely pathetic.
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,20:34

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,20:16)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Learn what?  I don't understand what you're getting at.

As for telling people to purposely misspell words, I'll do my best to stop.  I'll run this through Word and so there will be no spelling errors.

As for what Saddlebred wrote, that is just wrong.  The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  Yeah, the great Evolutionists.  I guess mocking is what they are all about.

But I will pray for you all.
Posted by: Dr.GH on June 30 2008,20:37

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,18:29)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


When I was in Georgia, there was a candidate for county sheriff who ran on the promise that he would "Clean up the moonshiners."  He didn't mean to shut them down, just "clean them up." It seems there were some poor quality 'shiners who used lead solder, and over cooked (ran the still too hot).  This resulted in a dangerous mix of toxins.
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 30 2008,20:39

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:34)
The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can't slip nuthin' by you, huh?

I'm guessing lame imitation.  Dr. GH is right, we can do much better.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,20:47

Quote (Dr.GH @ June 30 2008,18:37)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,18:29)
   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,14:35)
I can't believe that people would be so happy to see Dr. Hovind in jail.  After all he was put there by that illegal government instytution the IRS.  An ilegal entitity is ever their were one.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I heered them revenooers was after him for his moonshine still.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


When I was in Georgia, there was a candidate for county sheriff who ran on the promise that he would "Clean up the moonshiners."  He didn't mean to shut them down, just "clean them up." It seems there were some poor quality 'shiners who used lead solder, and over cooked (ran the still too hot).  This resulted in a dangerous mix of toxins.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


In Nick Tosches' bio of Jerry Lee Lewis, he mentions an incident where they found a dead cottonmouth in Jerry Lee's uncle's still.

Steve would probably drink that.
Posted by: J-Dog on June 30 2008,20:59

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,20:34)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,20:16)
Quote (American Saddlebred @ June 30 2008,15:39)
What, are you all scare of the TRUTH?  [B]DR.[/] Kent Hovind proves that evolution is IMPOSSIBLE and it is a RELIGON that send you to HELL.  That really hot place I cant wait to see you all go to so I can LAUGH at your.  Do YOU think the earth can really be BILLIONS of years old?  You werent there to see it!  GOD creatard me.  Not some MONKEYS AND GOO.  You need to OPEN your eyes to the TRUTH.

I will PRAY for you.


....better?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You have a gift. Use it for good instead of evil.

lcd could learn from you, hint hint.


(PS: Mix up 'there', 'their' and 'they're' more.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Learn what?  I don't understand what you're getting at.

As for telling people to purposely misspell words, I'll do my best to stop.  I'll run this through Word and so there will be no spelling errors.

As for what Saddlebred wrote, that is just wrong.  The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  Yeah, the great Evolutionists.  I guess mocking is what they are all about.

But I will pray for you all.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lcd - I think you owe American Saddlebred an apology.  He is one of this board's most reverent members, and just because he posts like  your average Creotard, doesn't mean he iS one.  

Get down on your knees and beg forgiveness, for vengence is mine sayeth The Lord.  And Fred Phelps.
Posted by: lcd on June 30 2008,21:10

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 30 2008,20:39)
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,21:34)
The worst part is I doubt if they even believe what they wrote.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can't slip nuthin' by you, huh?

I'm guessing lame imitation.  Dr. GH is right, we can do much better.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


"Lame imitation"?

"We can do much better"?

Oh, I get it.  You can do a parody of what you believe people like me who know and believe in God's word as the way it was, is and will be, better?  So you guys make up "strawmen" to knock down and pretend to be believers?

Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?  Would that be something you guys take turns at?

I guess that to be a "better creationist", in your guys opinions, means that I have to act like saddlebags there and be a "returd" or whatever the name you want to use?

So in your language:  Ah yes, the brain power of the evolutionist continues to impress me, not.

I was told about this place, actually WWW.TALKORIGINS.ORG from our VBS at the Church last week.  It ran from the 22nd to the 26th.  I prefer the concise and clear answers given by the good people at Trueorigins, but I digress.  There's a lot to be learned at VBS.  I'd invite you all to try it at a Church of your choice.  Although I will say it should be at a Bible believing Church.

See I now know why you guys are upset.  We have answers.  We have Christ.  Now, I'm not going to get all upset and, I mean I'll try to do my best, because we were taught to feel sorry for you.

Evolution is materialism at it's worst, and that's a fact.  If Evolution were true, then we wouldn't be here.  Yes, that is a fact.  Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?
Posted by: Wolfhound on June 30 2008,21:20

As a wise person once said, once they believe in the talking snake, everything else is easy.   :D
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,21:23

Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,19:10)
If Evolution were true, then we wouldn't be here.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Nonsequitor of the Week award goes to...

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Yes, that is a fact.  Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You're right. Ever since Jesus came, the world has been so much less violent.

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------

 

By your secret weapon..... Kent Hovind! Eeeek! Run for the hills!!!!

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution. 
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Stalin had Darwinists thrown in jail.

Please give me a reference where you found out about Mao's feelings about biology.

Incidentally, is there a reason why you left out Hitler's name there? Oversight?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now,
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Thanks for the vote of confidence, big fella. Maybe if you ever meet a real scientist your life, you'll learn even more.

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts,
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Since I assume your pastor told you all this, I suggest you ask him what 'projection' means.

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yeah!!! And why do we still have apes?

Therefore, God.
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 30 2008,21:35

Sorry, not biting.  You're a fake, and a rather poor one.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,21:52

I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on June 30 2008,22:23

I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.
Posted by: Chayanov on June 30 2008,22:38

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You noticed that, too?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on June 30 2008,22:53

Quote (Chayanov @ June 30 2008,20:38)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You noticed that, too?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I assume our highly edumacated vibes must have rubbed off on him.

He should thank us.
Posted by: jeffox on July 01 2008,04:36

Arden wrote above:


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I assume our highly edumacated vibes must have rubbed off on him.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Sorry, but my vibe shook itself off a long time ago.  Not that anybody in here needed to know that. . . .

:)

Oh, and ICD - if ya wanna go backtrolling, I can recommend a few good lakes to ya.  Just so's ya know.

:)
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,06:32

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yup,


As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

As for my first attempt on this board, I was tired and wrote quickly.  I've been taking my time to be as "edumacated" as the rest of you.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,06:35



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



actually, that's not why.  in tarden's case it has nothing to do with how many other women there are.

but anyway i can do a better impression than that lcd.  don't make me pull out my bibble.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,06:55

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,07:13

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,06:35)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Isn't that a lot like saying that when you guys run low on women, do a few of you pretend to be ladies?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



actually, that's not why.  in tarden's case it has nothing to do with how many other women there are.

but anyway i can do a better impression than that lcd.  don't make me pull out my bibble.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Please do pull out your Bible.  Perhaps you'll learn the truth of it.

But as many have said before ID is not religious.  It is being backed up with fact and proof.

If you want to pull out your Bible please do.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on God's Word.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,07:38

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,06:55)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, ok.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For too long books have been used to lie about many things too. So what.


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Where have you looked? What books have you read? You might have to leave the internet to do this, you realize that right?


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Can you list these "problems"?


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I tell you what, you coward. Why don't you pick a "problem" from your list (not that it's anything other then the usual ICR talking points) and detail it here. Then, I have no doubt, one of the many experts here can discuss it with you.

Are you afraid to challenge your faith?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm glad your kids liked it. It just means that your children will not be able to compete with mine in the marketplace.




---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It's funny but megachurches in the USA bring in millions a week. What are they trying to prove in that case?

And nobody is trying to prove anything. People like you can't be reached via rational means (prove me wrong, accept the challenge to discuss on of these "problems" you mention).


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oddly it's you that should answer this question, if you are so convinced your deity exists then why are you so afraid of science and progress?


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why don't you go ask a megachurch to fund a lab.

And in any case, ID/Creation has a lab already, the biologic people. What have they discovered so far? Zilch.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,07:41



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Please do pull out your Bible.  Perhaps you'll learn the truth of it.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Which is what exactly?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
But as many have said before ID is not religious.  It is being backed up with fact and proof.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Your words are contradicted by the very people who represent ID. It's no surprise that "fact" and "proof" mean different things to you.

Or do you mean "facts" like "DNA is very complex and is a code, only designers design codes therefore DNA was designed"

Is that the sort of "proof" you mean?

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
If you want to pull out your Bible please do.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on God's Word.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


After we hear your thoughts on those "problems", sure, no problem.
Posted by: Louis on July 01 2008,08:27

Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 01 2008,08:38

Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,08:42

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)
Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, that is what the the initials stand for.

As I see many others have initials for their names on this bored, I thought I'd do the same.  The only question was which initials.

I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,08:43

Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Try here:

< http://kids4truth.com/hometwo.asp >
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 01 2008,08:53

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,09:00

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't really know what to do about that so I won't worry about.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,09:01

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Would you like to talk about Walt Brown and his Jellyfish theory?

I'd love to hear your side of the story.

Go < here > for the story so far.

Do you, as a creationist, find Walt's story credible?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,09:02

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:00)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
 
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,08:38)

lcd?  Lowest Common Denominator? More likely than not.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.

Obviously I was wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Au contraire. We are having good natured fun.  And we aren't treating you as less than human.  We are treating you as less than sincere.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Don't really know what to do about that so I won't worry about.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No response to my responses to your points?

Typical creationist tactic I suppose, pretend the difficult questions are not there.

Have you been learning from FTK LCD?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,09:03



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



lcd, is 'creationism' good science?

is 'ID is good science' a faith claim?  can you show that it is true without invoking your 'belief'?

check out my sig line for how ID supporters here treat ID critics like dirt and as less than human.  I suspect you know the perpetrator.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,09:06

oldmanintheskydidntdoit,


Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?

That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,09:08

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:02)
No response to my responses to your points?

Typical creationist tactic I suppose, pretend the difficult questions are not there.

Have you been learning from FTK LCD?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I start from th bottom of the page and work up.

Also, I was taking time in gather what I thought were two good questions to start off with.

Sorry if my time table is not in sync with yours.  I'll worry about that another time.
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 01 2008,09:12

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:06)
Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,09:13

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:06)
oldmanintheskydidntdoit,


Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:

1:  It hasn't been seen.  Yes, I've read the Lemski debate over at Conservapedia and the comments made here, still the issue remains.  The E. coli in the experiment can now eat the stuff it's not supposed to eat.  But it is still E. Coli, right?  You've heard of Baraminolgy, right?  Even in full Creationists circles, kinds are well known.

2:  Where did the life come from to even evolve?

That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Since you've asked so nicely (was "coward" really needed?), here's some of the issues I've seen with evolution:
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


As you have now responded, I apologize and retract that comment.

The word "evolution" can mean many things. Please, before you claim not to have seen it define what you mean, specifically, by "evolution".

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
That is what the predictive power of ID can't be over looked.  ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Please prove that statement by one or more of the below

a) Showing me how ID can explain the origin of life
b) Showing me how ID can explain anything at all in a more accurate way then "evolution".
c) Showing me how "design" explains the loss of expression of hemoglobin and myoglobin in icefish.
d) Where did the life come from to even evolve (what does ID say about the origin of life - note you lose points for referring to the bible at this point).

If ID can explain these things "better" then the currently accepted understanding you will no doubt have easy answers to these questions.

EDIT: clarity
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,09:19

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,09:12)
I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


#3 I think has merit, but I was really looking for one or two items so we can really dig into those.

As for #4, well, I hate to break it to my fellow Creationists and IDers but the 2nd Law only applies to closed systems.  While the Sun-Earth System can be considered a closed system, the Earth is not.  The energy reaching the Earth from the Sun, which follows the 2nd Law incredibly well, provides the energy needed.

The half cat-dog thing, well, there are dog kinds and cat kinds.  The two aren't the same.

No I can't defend, nor will I, the bad science that has come from some of the more intense believers in God's Word.  Yes, some of them do tend to say things without thinking it through.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,09:24

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,09:19)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,09:12)
I'm disappointed.  You forgot:

3. No transitional fossils.

4. Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


#3 I think has merit, but I was really looking for one or two items so we can really dig into those.

As for #4, well, I hate to break it to my fellow Creationists and IDers but the 2nd Law only applies to closed systems.  While the Sun-Earth System can be considered a closed system, the Earth is not.  The energy reaching the Earth from the Sun, which follows the 2nd Law incredibly well, provides the energy needed.

The half cat-dog thing, well, there are dog kinds and cat kinds.  The two aren't the same.

No I can't defend, nor will I, the bad science that has come from some of the more intense believers in God's Word.  Yes, some of them do tend to say things without thinking it through.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Jellyfish. Let's show FTK that Creationists need have to fear to discuss such issues.

Or do they....
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,09:25

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:13)
As you have now responded, I apologize and retract that comment.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thank you.

I will get to these, but right now, I have to get to the work site.  The new additions are being finished and I'm supposed to be there.
Posted by: Nerull on July 01 2008,09:31

You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?
Posted by: Nerull on July 01 2008,09:32

And as for IDs predictive power - please give one single prediction ID makes.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,10:02

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,09:01)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:42)
I was told correctly that those who believe ID is good science and in Creationism, like myself, are treated like dirt and less than human, I choose it so you guys can have what I thought would be good natured fun.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Would you like to talk about Walt Brown and his Jellyfish theory?

I'd love to hear your side of the story.

Go < here > for the story so far.

Do you, as a creationist, find Walt's story credible?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Site's not ready until 1:00pm.  Imagine that.

I'm sure Dr. Brown studied long and hard, as I'm sure even Evolutionist scientists say they do, to come to the conclusions he did.  I'll have to read up more on what that's all about.

As for FTK, I think you were just getting them riled up.  To be honest, when I get mad as I'm sure many people do, I'm not always at my best.

I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,10:06



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



why let being uninformed stop you?  it doesn't stop the rest of the creationists.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,10:15

Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,10:16

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,10:06)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I'll hve to read more before I give an opinion.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



why let being uninformed stop you?  it doesn't stop the rest of the creationists.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why?  I have no desire to be like you.

:D
Posted by: Louis on July 01 2008,10:29

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:43)
Quote (Louis @ July 01 2008,08:27)
Whoa whoa whoa whoa! When did mocking liars/suckers/morons (delete as applicable) and IDCIsts...but I repeat myself....become a BAD thing?

Three strikes and out. Discuss sensibly once...discuss sensibly twice...make last ditch attempt at sensible discussion......MOCK!

Lcd seems to have missed the part where IDCists and their ancestors keep trying to force religious dogma into schools claiming it (falsely) to be science. Maybe THAT'S why people have to deal with them occasionally, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

Louis

EDIT: Unless of course lcd is a loki or a sock. Kids4truth? Come onnnnnnnn.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Try here:

< http://kids4truth.com/hometwo.asp >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Oh I've seen it Lcd, I've seen it. K4T is old hat even to me.

I have to say I'm curious as to where this "us vs them" idea comes from, there aren't "evolutionist" scientists and "creationist" scientists as some kind of opposed camps. Well there aren't "creationist scientists" at all but that's a different matter. The issue is that creationists simply have no evidence to support their claims, scientists (by which you can think I mean evolutionists if you so desire) do.

I think you need to stop thinking in such falsely dichotomous terms before you start with the science. It's the mistake we all made with FTK and Skeptic: it ain't about the science for them no matter what they say, it's all about the identity politics. Once you figure out it isn't some "evolutionist atheist meanness" versus "the holy and chosen children of god" or some such drivel, then a serious conversation can ensue. Until then: Mockery or Simply Being Ignored. The problem being of course that no one can figure this out for you.

Louis
Posted by: American Saddlebred on July 01 2008,10:29

I was waiting for punctuated equilibrium as soon as I heard "poof" mentioned.  A priest, a rabbi, and a Steven Jay Gould walk into a bar...

Even if E.coli "poofed" into another bacteria, wouldn't it still just be bacteria "kind?"  I mean, it isn't an entire kingdom, it's just a "kind."
Posted by: Dr.GH on July 01 2008,10:30

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,07:12)
Plus, on your point one, you forgot that no one has seen a half-cat, half dog.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


you forgot, ... with wings.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,10:33

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:15)
 
Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Please tell me how much "information" there is in a particular organism that you choose.

Then please tell me how you have determined

a) The amount of information in that organism
b) What units this "information" is measured in
c) How you determined the amount of information in the organism you chose.
d) How you measured the decease or loss of information.

I don't believe you can even prove that there is information in a organism, let alone prove that a measurable loss occurred. Can you?

I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,10:37



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I propose Hovinds.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 01 2008,10:38

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,06:55)
 
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ June 30 2008,22:23)
I'm not buying that Vacation Bible School points people to the TOA.

Most antievolution sites can't muster the gumption to link to the TOA or any other mainstream science sources.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Actually that was addressed during the class.  For too long, the internet had been used to lie about many things.  One of those things is the so called "overwhelming proof" of evolution.  Well I don't see and be honest, neither do you.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I see quite enough to convince people without an ideological precommitment that evolutionary science has made its case beyond reasonable doubt. That leaves the folks with unreasonable doubts unconvinced.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



< Oh, boy. > Don't act like there's only been invective flowing in one direction.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



If you like falsehoods, it sounds like you've hit the jackpot.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

What is most interesting sir, and your name did come up if that makes you feel special, was the amount of money spent on trying to prove evolution.  Why is that sir?  If you think it's already true, then why do you guys feel the need to keep on trying to prove it?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



My activist role isn't about "proving evolution". In that, I'm countering a corrupt socio-political program that aims to tell falsehoods to students in the guise of sham labels for religiously-motivated antievolution arguments.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Most graduate students in evolutionary science manage to publish research papers, and many of them get just the support departments offer in the way of teaching assistant or research assistant stipends. And those aren't much, I can tell you. Back around 2002, the DI CRSC was handing out $40K/year fellowships for the IDC advocates to write op-eds, books, and do public speaking... at least, that's what they did with the money. You could fund two or sometimes three graduate students in evolutionary science for that amount of dough. Why are IDC advocates at that level (many if not all of them with terminal degrees) so much *less* productive, research-wise, than ordinary graduate students in mainstream science?

As I put it, maybe the DI CRSC was funding the wrong people. DI CRSC Fellow Paul Nelson was sitting next to the podium during my talk, and he just gave me a wounded look at that point.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,10:39

Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,July 01 2008,10:37)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



I propose Hovinds.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I love it!

Several Hovinds of information were lost when the beetle kind radiated out into all the beetles we see today. Ancestral Beetle Kinds have their full compliment of Hovinds.

Works for me! :)

LCD, any news on how you are measuring this "loss of information" when mutations break things?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,11:09

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".
Posted by: Assassinator on July 01 2008,11:16

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,10:33)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:15)
   
Quote (Nerull @ July 01 2008,09:31)
You are no better.

"Kinds" seems to be your only point. And that's pretty sad.

You don't even know how evolution is supposed to work, do you? The only thing you know are the lies you've been told.

It's not "Poof!". And its not quick morphs between stable states - its a constant state of change.

As for transitional fossils - we find them all the time. You've simply closed your eyes and refuse to see.

If you acknowledge that e. coli. changed, than you must acknowledge evolution. The micro .vs macro evolution thing is a strawman used only by the least intelligent, much like the thermodynamics thing. There is no difference. Small changes over time add up to very big changes.

Is your car a horse cart? No? Yet it was developed by a series of small changes. It is your belief that small changes can never amount to big changes, is it not?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Nerull?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerull

I take it you play DnD.  How do you like 4.0?  I like 3.5 much better.

Not much better?  Okay.

Evolution works by animals changing.  New species being made (and you've seen this when?) from old ones.  The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.

Transitional Fossil?  Where?

Oh, so no "Poof".  Well, in the class I was at, we learned about "Punctuated Equilibrium".  Wow.  There's a novel approach.  Things happen so fast that there are no fossils and this is from an evolutionist (rest his soul and may God forgive him and his atheism)!  So Evolution doesn't need Transitional Fossils now!  Again, where are these "transitional fossils"?

Well the E. Coli changed but it's still E. Coli!  So there's no evolution.  They may have had a trait come in from being dormant but how is that evolution when the culture is still E Coli?

The Horse Cart to a Car.  good analogy.  At each point in the design was there intelligence doing the changes.  Which is what ID is all about.

The predictive power of ID is powerful as it is simple:

When systems become so complex that one parts falls away, it stops working so how does it get to be in the first place?  The answer, "It was designed that way".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The gain of information, somehow, from mutations that are almost always fatal.  Interesting that there's some gain of information when it is so easily seen when codes get muddled and broken, the information in DNA, the result is a loss of information.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Please tell me how much "information" there is in a particular organism that you choose.

Then please tell me how you have determined

a) The amount of information in that organism
b) What units this "information" is measured in
c) How you determined the amount of information in the organism you chose.
d) How you measured the decease or loss of information.

I don't believe you can even prove that there is information in a organism, let alone prove that a measurable loss occurred. Can you?

I ask again, what units is this information loss (when codes get muddled and broken) measured in?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I heard someone using "bits" to measure that, although I after I asked more about it (how do you measure it, where does it come from, where are the publications about it, etc etc) it became awfully silent as usual. The only "bits" I've ever seen in something actually scientific, was in an online sequencing program (I think BLAST but I'm not sure) a while ago. Can't remember exactly in wich context though.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,11:25

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,11:28

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:25)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No big rush.  It's not like these are new questions that have never been asked.
Posted by: Wolfhound on July 01 2008,11:38

I am just burning to know how many "kinds" there are and how a Baraminologist  :p  classifies animals into their respective "kinds".  For a burgeoning science, Baraminology doesn't seem to have any set rules.  How odd.  Not.

Point of fact, if the creationist morons had just stuck to the miracle of "God did it" and not tried to invent science-like shit to explain something as incredibly stupid and impossible as a global flood which wiped out all living things except two of each animal (without leaving a trace!) they wouldn't be forced to pull things like "kinds" out of their asses.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,11:49

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,09:28)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:25)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:09)
 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:55)
I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


While your track record of ignoring questions addressed to you is pretty much what we expected, it's probably best for your sake if you didn't spend too much time on this idea of other people "believing things they haven't seen".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I get asked a lot of questions.  I also am trying to do my job.  I will answer what I can to the best of my ability.

So forgive me if I can't always meet your timetable.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


No big rush.  It's not like these are new questions that have never been asked.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


And our expectations are admittedly pretty low.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,11:53

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:32)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yup,

As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems to have done wonders for your grammar and sentence structure, too.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,11:58

LCD - another challenge for you!

Pick a single thing. Anything. It's up to you.

Show us

a) What ID or creationism predicts regarding that.
b) What "evolution" predicts regarding that.

And then show us why the answer is more accurate for A then B.

For example.

A global flood.

Creationism predicts that fossils will be found all mixed together due to the flood waters being chaotic, but with filtering by size (smallest to largest) when they settled and fossilized.

Evolution predicts that fossils will be found in chronological order, not size order.
Posted by: argystokes on July 01 2008,12:12

Very interesting that this fellow is a fan of Kids4truth, since that organization's founder got his antievolution start right here at AtBC! Shall we dig up the blatant lies of AFDave / Dave Hawkins? Shouldn't take too long.

Edit: Ah, a little more reading before posting was warranted. Poor parody.
Posted by: Gunthernacus on July 01 2008,12:19

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:55)
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

[snip]

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is the first time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  You did it and you tied it to Creationism.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:13)
But as many have said before ID is not religious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is the second time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  And, again, you did it.  Is this the talking point you've wanted to get to all along?  Anyway, before these comments you wrote:

   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,22:10)
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't agree with you, but I'll set that aside for the moment.  In your opinion, can atheists believe in ID?  You say that evolution is "the idea that we have no meaning" and that it "must be defeated".  Defeated by what?  Non-religious ID?  Does non-religious ID offer "the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth"?  What meaning does ID offer for we humans or life in general - and how does ID come to that conclusion?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,12:34

To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,12:41

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,11:53)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,04:32)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ June 30 2008,21:52)
I just noticed that lcd's grammar and spelling improved a lot during his time here. Funny, that.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yup,

As I was being mocked for poor spelling, I never was very good at it, I decided to run my posts in Word first.  A bunch of helpful stuff there.  I especially like the stuff where it shows you spelled the word right but it's the wrong word.

Like write and right, their and there.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It seems to have done wonders for your grammar and sentence structure, too.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.
Posted by: Dr.GH on July 01 2008,12:46

Instead of using this apparent troll as a creationist chew toy, I recommend going to real creationists and responding to them. I have taken to registering at newspapers following evo/creato articles and responding to the comments. Few sites allow links, and none allow using jpegs, but they are where the creatos really are.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,12:59

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:41)
Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I wouldn't say that you're 'offending' anyone here.
Posted by: Louis on July 01 2008,13:02

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,18:59)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,10:41)
Glad you noticed.  I will admit in being tired, sore and a bit when I was just typing too quickly.  So as not to offend you anymore and make you think that I'm flip flopping, I won't post unless I think its really needed when I'm tired.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I wouldn't say that you're 'offending' anyone here.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yup, "offending" is definitely the wrong word. "Conforming to the very predictable patterns of standard creationist drivel to the extent that LCD is boring" is a better choice of terminology. Not as snappy I grant you, but much more accurate.

Louis
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:03

To all, especially oldmanintheskydidntdoit


What would you take as evidence?  I can hear all of you now, "Another ID dodge".  This is not the case.  More than a few other Creationists and IDists may have tried, it seems too many times they get ridiculed or shouted down.

So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

When it comes to Information contained in DNA, it is obvious it exists.  Without that Information, there would be no inherited traits.  A Palm Tree in such a situation can produce seeds that grow an Elm.  Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.

So from that we know there is information contained in the DNA.

Information, can and does get lost.  A strand of DNA doesn't replicate correctly and the sites in the genes that tells a cell to stop dividing gets lost.  So now you have a cancer cell.  The loss of that information prevents it from no longer being able to stop multiplying.  Loss of info must be a bad thing.

So how does one measure the information in DNA?  Good question and  I don't rightly know.  I guess it would take time and money.  From the other thread, one scientist was given 20 years to try and change E. Coli into something else.  All he was able to do was change what they eat.  Is that a change or loss of information?  I'd say loss as it seems to state that the "new strain" of E. Coli doesn't do as well when there's both forms of nutrition for all the E. Coli to consume.

I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:08

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:16

Quote (Gunthernacus @ July 01 2008,12:19)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,07:55)
Like the guy who came and taught, he was from a local college, about the problems with evolution, he said not to fear sites like these.  The worst he said was to endure mocking from many at a place such as this.  Boy was he right.

But we did spend a lot of time looking over the great stuff that is on the internet, like Trueorigins, Institute for Creation Research and even places like kids4truth.com, which my kids really like.

[snip]

I wonder what we'd find from the ID/Creation side if they had half the money you guys get trying to prove something nobody has ever seen.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is the first time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  You did it and you tied it to Creationism.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,08:13)
But as many have said before ID is not religious.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is the second time in your participation on this thread that ID has been brought up.  And, again, you did it.  Is this the talking point you've wanted to get to all along?  Anyway, before these comments you wrote:

   
Quote (lcd @ June 30 2008,22:10)
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  After all, look at Stalin, Mao and other atheists who supported evolution.  Granted it may not be what you guys now have put on the mantle of your altar of science now, evolution can never be disproved as it is always shifting the goal posts, but they were atheists and as atheists they sure as heck didn't believe in Creation now did they?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't agree with you, but I'll set that aside for the moment.  In your opinion, can atheists believe in ID?  You say that evolution is "the idea that we have no meaning" and that it "must be defeated".  Defeated by what?  Non-religious ID?  Does non-religious ID offer "the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth"?  What meaning does ID offer for we humans or life in general - and how does ID come to that conclusion?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here's a shock for you.

I have no problem confirming that ID is part of Creationism.  What I don't agree with though is that without the Bible, ID would fall apart.

I feel just the opposite.  Imagine a world where God unknown and Jesus hadn't saved anyone.  A truly terrible place.  I could see real scientists looking for better ways to kill other people for their evil governments and looking into bio warfare.

The goal is to "build a better bug".  The scientists start and some of them notice the unmistakable signs of design in these microbes.  Their conclusion is that someone already designed them.  Perhaps that is what can help them discover God and all of His Glory.

So ID can lead people back to God and His Word as well as His Word leading people to ID and His Creation.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:21

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For these questions:

#1:  Many of them are well meaning but confused.  I'm sure many feel that to be accepted they must conform to some notion of what it means to be sophisticated.

#2:  Using Hitler, I was taught, is wrong to lump him with evolution.  Hitler wasn't an atheist.  He was some kind of Pagan/New Age/Catholic Cult who tried to change religion into his own ideals.  Besides there's that thing that when one starts comparing others to Nazis or Hitler, they automatically lose.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,13:22

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
To add this to the pile of questions LCD won't adequately answer:

       

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Without the guidance of God's word supplemented by Christ's time on Earth, we would have killed ourselves off.  That is why Evolution, the idea that we have no meaning, must be defeated.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There are millions of Christians who accept evolution. Therefore your dichotomy of "the opposite of Christian is Darwinist" is bogus.

Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

And if ID has nothing to do with religion, why do no nonreligious people accept it?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It's not so obvious to millions of people, including Christians.

So Christians who accept evolution aren't REAL Christians? Is that the statement you're signing on to?

Who gets to pick? You?

As you know, the Vatican has come out in support of evolution. Are Catholics not 'real Christians'?

Michael Behe has conceded common descent. Is he not a 'real Christian'?

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Do you keep kosher?
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 01 2008,13:25



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Yeah, tell those nasty bishops at Hippo what for!



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

At the Synod of Hippo (393), and again at the Synod of 397 at Carthage, a list of the books of Holy Scripture was drawn up. It is the Catholic canon (i.e. including the books later classed by Protestants as "Apocrypha").

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Oh, yes, and the Protestant reformers who kicked out the Apocrypha. Best not to forget them.
Posted by: dogdidit on July 01 2008,13:27

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think RtH gets credit here for calling "no true Scotsman". Out of curiosity, what was the pot up to?
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on July 01 2008,13:28

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:03)
Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Then you'd have something.


Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:30

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,13:22)
It's not so obvious to millions of people, including Christians.

So Christians who accept evolution aren't REAL Christians? Is that the statement you're signing on to?

Who gets to pick? You?

As you know, the Vatican has come out in support of evolution. Are Catholics not 'real Christians'?

Michael Behe has conceded common descent. Is he not a 'real Christian'?

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Do you keep kosher?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,13:31

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:21)
   
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,12:34)
Where in your cosmology do religious people who accept evolution fit in? Are they worse than atheists?

Oh, and at some point I would like to hear why you didn't lump Hitler in with Stalin and Mao.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For these questions:

#1:  Many of them are well meaning but confused.  I'm sure many feel that to be accepted they must conform to some notion of what it means to be sophisticated.

#2:  Using Hitler, I was taught, is wrong to lump him with evolution.  Hitler wasn't an atheist.  He was some kind of Pagan/New Age/Catholic Cult who tried to change religion into his own ideals.  Besides there's that thing that when one starts comparing others to Nazis or Hitler, they automatically lose.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Thank you. Most people of your ilk say that Hitler was an atheist.

So, since you brought them up, can you tell me why Stalin had Darwinists thrown in jail, and what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

Do you personally think Christians who believe in Evolution are going to hell?

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



There are plenty of private institutions with millions of dollars who are very sympathic to Creationism. The Templeton Institute was offering grants to do ID work for years. And yet, no ID research gets done. No creationist research gets done. The main ID journal in existence has published no issues in close to 3 years. Why no results? Why are no private funding sources stepping up to the plate?
Posted by: Assassinator on July 01 2008,13:34

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: < http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf >
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.
Posted by: JohnW on July 01 2008,13:34

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,13:35



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You say that Christians who believe in Evolution aren't real Christians, and yet you also claim you don't judge them?
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:36

Quote (dogdidit @ July 01 2008,13:27)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think RtH gets credit here for calling "no true Scotsman". Out of curiosity, what was the pot up to?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, if it looks like a flower, smells like a flower and attracts bees, if would be a difficult if not impossible thing to call it a duck, right?

But I think I am a real Christian so I guess I put myself in that boat.  Then again so do many others.  The real test is when those who claim actually do what is needed.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,13:41


Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:41

Quote (Assassinator @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: < http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf >
 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So "science can change stripes as that what science does it's self correcting".

Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.

Let me see if I can get this straight.  What you and your heroes do is wholesome, self-correcting and right.

What ID scientists do is lie, cover up and take money from unsuspecting dupes like myself.  What that makes me, in your opinion then is a sucker.

Do I smell a hypocrite here?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,13:47

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:41)
Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But, uh, Creationism hasn't 'shown it is a science', is the problem.

Again, Behe, who is one of the few sciency types ID can point to, has conceded common descent. I'll bet you reject common descent. So, do you reject Behe's contributions to ID? If not, why not?
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,13:48

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 01 2008,13:49


Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 01 2008,13:49



---------------------QUOTE-------------------

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,13:50

The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:51

Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well JW,


It seems that you and your friends are trotting out the same "ill-thought and oft-quoted" tired explanations of circular logic yourself.  Yet you have the gall to call me on it.

Wow.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:51

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:48)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Funny you can as most people can't smell what's under their own nose.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:52

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ July 01 2008,13:49)

---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Glad to see you're coming to terms with what you've been spraying across the internet for what, years now?
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:54

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".
Posted by: Sealawr on July 01 2008,13:56

Pardon me for being direct.  I don't post often, but I am amused when scientifically, philsophically and theologically untrained persons opine on science philosophy and theology all at once.  These people often hit the tridefecta, so to speak.

So, assuming this is a genuine question--

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
What would you take as evidence?  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



An answer to the following question previously asked of you would be a good start.

   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Pick a single thing. Anything. It's up to you.

Show us

a) What ID or creationism predicts regarding that.
b) What "evolution" predicts regarding that.

And then show us why the answer is more accurate for A then B.

For example.

A global flood.

Creationism predicts that fossils will be found all mixed together due to the flood waters being chaotic, but with filtering by size (smallest to largest) when they settled and fossilized.

Evolution predicts that fossils will be found in chronological order, not size order.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



How say you?
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,13:56

The attitude and evasion of actual science questions is getting a little more toward the accurate portrayal as well.

Keep working on it, we'll send you off a-trolling when you're a little more ready.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,13:57

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:50)
The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, this is what we were told exactly what would happen if one were to engage with Evolutionists.

You have faith in Evolution.

I have faith in God.

You say the same things over and over, until such time it's been shown to be a lie then you quickly change your tune like nothing ever happened.

ID has changed over the years to show the science behind God's Word and in His Word.

Yet I'm the hypocrite?  Wow.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,13:58

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:57)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:50)
The addition of the blatant hypocrisy is getting it a little closer to realistic, though.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, this is what we were told exactly what would happen if one were to engage with Evolutionists.

You have faith in Evolution.

I have faith in God.

You say the same things over and over, until such time it's been shown to be a lie then you quickly change your tune like nothing ever happened.

ID has changed over the years to show the science behind God's Word and in His Word.

Yet I'm the hypocrite?  Wow.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Better.  You're getting there.

I still think you should throw in some Nazis though.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 01 2008,13:58

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:54)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Mao's rejection of evolutionary science is evidence of his acceptance of evolutionary science? Cool.
Posted by: JohnW on July 01 2008,14:01

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:51)
Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I have a suggestion, lcd.  As you appear to have nothing we haven't seen before, and your cartoonish misunderstandings of evolution can better be dealt with elsewhere (talkorigins, for example), why not find a site where some of these "millions of people who THINK they are Christian" hang out, and show them the error of their ways?  I'm sure there will be great excitement when they find the one true arbiter of real Christianity in their midst.  They'll be lining up to thank you.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well JW,


It seems that you and your friends are trotting out the same "ill-thought and oft-quoted" tired explanations of circular logic yourself.  Yet you have the gall to call me on it.

Wow.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If it's an "explanation of circular logic" you're looking for, < here >'s one.  You might also want to do a google search for remedial English classes.

Once you've learned how to translate what you want to say into strings of words, feel free to try again.
Posted by: jeannot on July 01 2008,14:03

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:03)
To all, especially oldmanintheskydidntdoit


What would you take as evidence?  I can hear all of you now, "Another ID dodge".  This is not the case.  More than a few other Creationists and IDists may have tried, it seems too many times they get ridiculed or shouted down.

So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.

When it comes to Information contained in DNA, it is obvious it exists.  Without that Information, there would be no inherited traits.  A Palm Tree in such a situation can produce seeds that grow an Elm.  Without information in DNA, Monkeys could really give birth to humans and an E. Coli can divide and instead of two E Coli cells, you have an embryonic cat on one side and a dog on the other.

So from that we know there is information contained in the DNA.

Information, can and does get lost.  A strand of DNA doesn't replicate correctly and the sites in the genes that tells a cell to stop dividing gets lost.  So now you have a cancer cell.  The loss of that information prevents it from no longer being able to stop multiplying.  Loss of info must be a bad thing.

So how does one measure the information in DNA?  Good question and  I don't rightly know.  I guess it would take time and money.  From the other thread, one scientist was given 20 years to try and change E. Coli into something else.  All he was able to do was change what they eat.  Is that a change or loss of information?  I'd say loss as it seems to state that the "new strain" of E. Coli doesn't do as well when there's both forms of nutrition for all the E. Coli to consume.

I stated previously about the amount of money given to do dogmatic Evolutionary Science.  Why don't we try giving ARN or DI 20 years and lots of taxpayer money to come up with something in 20 years?

Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Before discussing evidence for creation/ID, one must formulate a hypothesis. You provided none.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,14:11

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:51)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,13:48)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Funny you can as most people can't smell what's under their own nose.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,14:15

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:11)
For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well Arden, what's to say.

You may not think you guys are doing not just the exact thing but claiming I'm the only one who is doing it is wrong.

The reason why you guys seem to be getting away with it is that there are far more of you then there are of just me.
Posted by: Assassinator on July 01 2008,14:15

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:41)
Quote (Assassinator @ July 01 2008,13:34)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,13:21)
What would you take as evidence?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Emperical data, facts. Like with all forms of science, so where are they when it's about ID or Creationism?
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So what would you people take?  Things such as Dembski's Design Filter can be used, although it may need to be perfected.  Is that a problem?  Why is Evolution allowed to change stripes, "Punctuated Equilibrium", no wait, "Gradualism", oh that don't work, back to "Uniformism"?  It seems as those ID Theories, some of which may be still being built upon, doesn't get the same respect.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Evolution is allowed to "change stripes" because that's the way science works. Science keeps correcting itself, that's the power of science. If something is wrong, it will change.
O and by the way, Dembski's "Design filter" or commonly known as the Explanatory Filter (if that's not the one you mean, correct me) if utterly useless. To save me a lot of typing, read this nice little article from our own Wesley Elsberry: < http://www.talkreason.org/articles/eandsdembski.pdf >
   

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Or can money only be spent at the altar of Evolutionary Science?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Money can be spend on science. So either start conducting it, or stop moaning. And you sir, are only talking about (bad?) theology, and not science.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So "science can change stripes as that what science does it's self correcting".

Yet when Creationism goes to show that it is a science, witness ID, it's "snake oil", "lies" and worse.

Let me see if I can get this straight.  What you and your heroes do is wholesome, self-correcting and right.

What ID scientists do is lie, cover up and take money from unsuspecting dupes like myself.  What that makes me, in your opinion then is a sucker.

Do I smell a hypocrite here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The problem is, like what's sad before, that Creationism ánd ID have not shown they're science.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,14:16

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,11:54)
Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 01 2008,13:49)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------

what evidence you have for Mao's support of Darwinism?

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



That ought to be interesting, since in 1958 Mao presided over China, and China adopted Comrade Academician Trofim D. Lysenko's ideas about agriculture wholesale. China had been having grain surpluses when using agriculture informed by the evolutionary science of the West; once Lysenko's policies were followed in China, they had grain shortfalls such that between 20 and 40 million people died in the resulting famine.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Obviously Mao was doing the best he could for Darwinian Science which was "cull the weak".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


So anyone who kills lots of people is a 'Darwinist'?

Sure you wanna go with that answer?
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,14:18

Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,14:01)
If it's an "explanation of circular logic" you're looking for, < here >'s one.  You might also want to do a google search for remedial English classes.

Once you've learned how to translate what you want to say into strings of words, feel free to try again.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heh JW, love your sense of humor.

I think you need to complete your courses before you go and offer them up to others though.

Just a thought, I know it's hard for you to do but I bet if you try hard enough, one might actually slip in there despite your best efforts to go through life "blinded by (your idea of) science"!
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,14:18

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:15)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:11)
For the record, "I know you are, but what am I?" usually quits working after 5th grade.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well Arden, what's to say.

You may not think you guys are doing not just the exact thing but claiming I'm the only one who is doing it is wrong.

The reason why you guys seem to be getting away with it is that there are far more of you then there are of just me.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Persecution claims. Check.

If your logic made any sense, you'd be able to answer questions all by your lonesome. It isn't happening.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,14:20

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:16)
So anyone who kills lots of people is a 'Darwinist'?

Sure you wanna go with that answer?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Of course not as that would be a blanket statement and ill -advised.  But in Mao's case, his following of some "Scientific Principles" I think it fits.
Posted by: lcd on July 01 2008,14:22

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:18)
Persecution claims. Check.

If your logic made any sense, you'd be able to answer questions all by your lonesome. It isn't happening.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you guys would listen, I just might.  As I am fending off so many of you and the questions are coming fast and furious, and smack me down if I don't answer someone's question or one they want to see answered quickly, I may not be able to get to them all.

But I must be going for a while.  Got to get back to the job site.

From now on, I'll only answer those who are at least trying some civility.  It will help me maintain my composure.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,14:27

So, LCD, to recap.

You've admitted Hitler wasn't an atheist.

You've failed to explain why Stalin imprisoned Darwinists.

You've failed to demonstrate that Mao was a Darwinist.

So, uh, WTF was your original point about Darwinist atheist dictators killing millions of people?

Incidentally, as for your notion that Christians can't be murderous dictators, in addition to Germany, you might try googling 'Congo Free State'

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Of course not as that would be a blanket statement and ill -advised.  But in Mao's case, his following of some "Scientific Principles" I think it fits.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Sure looks like what you're saying there.

So, to repeat what Wes said: Mao killing Darwinists proves he was a Darwinist?

Um, there's a reason the government doesn't give money to Creationists to do 'research'.
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,14:27



Hey, mister? Are you hungry? I got a Baby Ruth
Posted by: dogdidit on July 01 2008,14:33

Dude just pick ONE question, everybody will follow along.

But *hint* make it a sciency one. Who gives a rat's ass about Mao? (sorry Arden) You got a bunch a science types here (plus chatty kibbitzers like yours truly). Ask a SCIENCE question. Like maybe one about *stares at ceiling for a minute* oh, I dunno, EVOLUTION maybe??

Or crap, okay, atheistic killer Darwinistictators.

Or the part where Darwin himself advocated "culling the weak". That was...in which of his works does that appear, again?
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,14:37

Quote (dogdidit @ July 01 2008,12:33)
Dude just pick ONE question, everybody will follow along.

But *hint* make it a sciency one. Who gives a rat's ass about Mao? (sorry Arden) You got a bunch a science types here (plus chatty kibbitzers like yours truly). Ask a SCIENCE question. Like maybe one about *stares at ceiling for a minute* oh, I dunno, EVOLUTION maybe??

Or crap, okay, atheistic killer Darwinistictators.

Or the part where Darwin himself advocated "culling the weak". That was...in which of his works does that appear, again?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I'd be happy just to hear about why we don't have 'dats'.
Posted by: Chayanov on July 01 2008,14:48

I liked lcd better when it was badly written screeds about Hovind. Went from that to "I really want to discuss the science with you all" to "I'm very busy writing posts about how I don't have time to answer any of your questions" to "I know you are, but what am I" to "Stop persecuting me!" to even more childish insults. I find hypocritical proselytizing very boring. How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
Posted by: oldmanintheskydidntdoit on July 01 2008,14:49

Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reminds me of FTK at 10x speed. What next, the flounce out?
Posted by: Chayanov on July 01 2008,14:50

Quote (oldmanintheskydidntdoit @ July 01 2008,14:49)
Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Reminds me of FTK at 10x speed. What next, the flounce out?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yeah, at least ftk would draw it out over several days. This is all taking place in a matter of hours.
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 01 2008,14:55

Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
I liked lcd better when it was badly written screeds about Hovind. Went from that to "I really want to discuss the science with you all" to "I'm very busy writing posts about how I don't have time to answer any of your questions" to "I know you are, but what am I" to "Stop persecuting me!" to even more childish insults. I find hypocritical proselytizing very boring. How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Has he promised to pray for us yet?  If not, I hope he does so very soon. The way he has batted you Darwinoids around has me sunk into a existential morass and I have chores to do this afternoon.  I'd hate to chance my immortal soul out on the highways and byways if he hasn't offer supplications in my name to God.
Posted by: JohnW on July 01 2008,15:00

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,12:18)
Quote (JohnW @ July 01 2008,14:01)
If it's an "explanation of circular logic" you're looking for, < here >'s one.  You might also want to do a google search for remedial English classes.

Once you've learned how to translate what you want to say into strings of words, feel free to try again.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Heh JW, love your sense of humor.

I think you need to complete your courses before you go and offer them up to others though.

Just a thought, I know it's hard for you to do but I bet if you try hard enough, one might actually slip in there despite your best efforts to go through life "blinded by (your idea of) science"!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


My best guess is that this is another variation on the theme of "I know you are, but what am I?", but that's just a working hypothesis at the moment.

I'm completely stumped by the last paragraph, though.  "One might slip in there?"  One what?  Slip in where?  What the hell are you on about?

Have you considered reading over what you've written before clicking on "Add Reply", lcd?
Posted by: Assassinator on July 01 2008,15:00

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:22)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,14:18)
Persecution claims. Check.

If your logic made any sense, you'd be able to answer questions all by your lonesome. It isn't happening.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If you guys would listen, I just might.  As I am fending off so many of you and the questions are coming fast and furious, and smack me down if I don't answer someone's question or one they want to see answered quickly, I may not be able to get to them all.

But I must be going for a while.  Got to get back to the job site.

From now on, I'll only answer those who are at least trying some civility.  It will help me maintain my composure.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Ok then, I'll try:
A couple of posts back, you sad that when ID or Creationism has shown it's science, it has been ridiculed, called lies etc. So can you explain please, what Creationisme and/or ID has done exactly to show that they've done to show they're actually scientific. Because as far as we know, they have not. Maybe you could tell us more about it then.
Posted by: Wolfhound on July 01 2008,15:17

What the fuck is wrong with engineers?  Almost every time we get some flaming godbot spewing AIG crapola like it has some sort of value, it's an engineer.  Or do they call blocklayers "cement engineers" these days like garbage men are "sanitation engineers"?

To all of you engineers out there who are not asshats, you have my sympathy.
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,15:24

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,12:55)
 
Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
I liked lcd better when it was badly written screeds about Hovind. Went from that to "I really want to discuss the science with you all" to "I'm very busy writing posts about how I don't have time to answer any of your questions" to "I know you are, but what am I" to "Stop persecuting me!" to even more childish insults. I find hypocritical proselytizing very boring. How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Has he promised to pray for us yet?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< Natch! >
Posted by: carlsonjok on July 01 2008,15:28

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,15:24)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,12:55)
 
Has he promised to pray for us yet?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< Natch! >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Awesome!

*Grabs car keys*

See you suckers later!  Take your comeuppances like big boys!

*Heads out door*
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 01 2008,15:29

lcd,

Dude, I'm telling you.  Skip the Chinese communists.

They're just not as sexy as Nazis.

Go with the Nazis.
Posted by: Chayanov on July 01 2008,15:36

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,15:24)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,12:55)
 
Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
I liked lcd better when it was badly written screeds about Hovind. Went from that to "I really want to discuss the science with you all" to "I'm very busy writing posts about how I don't have time to answer any of your questions" to "I know you are, but what am I" to "Stop persecuting me!" to even more childish insults. I find hypocritical proselytizing very boring. How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Has he promised to pray for us yet?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< Natch! >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Seriously, do the churches have some sort of game plan they hand out to prospective martyrs who are going to face off against the evil Darwinists?

"Here, be sure you say and do everything on this list, and we guarantee you'll crush them until they're weeping for Jesus. You won't look stupid at all, trust us."
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 01 2008,15:39

Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,13:36)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,15:24)
Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,12:55)
   
Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,14:48)
I liked lcd better when it was badly written screeds about Hovind. Went from that to "I really want to discuss the science with you all" to "I'm very busy writing posts about how I don't have time to answer any of your questions" to "I know you are, but what am I" to "Stop persecuting me!" to even more childish insults. I find hypocritical proselytizing very boring. How long untill we start getting quotes from Scripture?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Has he promised to pray for us yet?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


< Natch! >
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Seriously, do the churches have some sort of game plan they hand out to prospective martyrs who are going to face off against the evil Darwinists?

"Here, be sure you say and do everything on this list, and we guarantee you'll crush them until they're weeping for Jesus. You won't look stupid at all, trust us."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


If someone like PZ wrote the list, that would explain a lot.
Posted by: Chayanov on July 01 2008,15:56

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,15:39)
If someone like PZ wrote the list, that would explain a lot.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I know, it's like they're being set up to fail. As if this will be the first time we've ever heard statements like "Evolution is religion," or "[Insert name of dictator] was a Darwinist" or "ID isn't religion -- my pastor told me so."
Posted by: Dr.GH on July 01 2008,16:06

Quote (Chayanov @ July 01 2008,13:56)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 01 2008,15:39)
If someone like PZ wrote the list, that would explain a lot.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I know, it's like they're being set up to fail. As if this will be the first time we've ever heard statements like "Evolution is religion," or "[Insert name of dictator] was a Darwinist" or "ID isn't religion -- my pastor told me so."
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I would be glad to respond to a real creationist, but LCD was so obviously a phony trolling for reactions that I could not be bothered.
Posted by: Chayanov on July 01 2008,16:08

Quote (Dr.GH @ July 01 2008,16:06)
I would be glad to respond to a real creationist, but LCD was so obviously a phony trolling for reactions that I could not be bothered.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


True, but the "real" creationists make the exact same arguments. The only difference with a troll is intent.
Posted by: dnmlthr on July 01 2008,16:10

Quote (carlsonjok @ July 01 2008,20:55)
Has he promised to pray for us yet?  If not, I hope he does so very soon. The way he has batted you Darwinoids around has me sunk into a existential morass and I have chores to do this afternoon.  I'd hate to chance my immortal soul out on the highways and byways if he hasn't offer supplications in my name to God.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



HA HA, this is you.
Posted by: dogdidit on July 01 2008,16:56

Quote (Wolfhound @ July 01 2008,15:17)
What the fuck is wrong with engineers?  Almost every time we get some flaming godbot spewing AIG crapola like it has some sort of value, it's an engineer.  Or do they call blocklayers "cement engineers" these days like garbage men are "sanitation engineers"?

To all of you engineers out there who are not asshats, you have my sympathy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


1, I are a engineer.
2. I are not a flaming godbot.
3. I are an asshat..but hey, the first step on the road to recovery, nome sane?
4. "what the fuck is wrong with engineers?" - I ask myself this question EVERY DAMN DAY. Followed shortly by "god I hate us". But at least the pay is good, and they let me play with some interesting toys.
Posted by: Reciprocating Bill on July 01 2008,18:02

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw
Posted by: bystander on July 01 2008,21:27

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 02 2008,01:48)
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:08)
There are millions of people who THINK they are Christian.

Real Christians follow God's Word and believe it as such.  If you're going to say, "Well lot's of Christians feel that Evolution and the Bible can both exist", obviously aren't.

I don't mean to offend anyone but how does one say thy ar a full Christian when they pick and choose which parts of God's Word they wish to believe?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:30)
For other Christians, I offer up only what I read in the Bible.

I don't judge them so I won't say what happens to them.  That is up to God.

As far as Kosher, I am not a full on vegetarian, I eat fish though no shell fish, shrimp, etc., and I'm lactose intolerant.  So no "meat with milk" for me.  So yes, I think I do.

Trust me we've had many "open and intense discussions" at church about following God's Laws.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



 
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:41)
Do I smell a hypocrite here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Well I certainly do.

Anyone else?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I used to be a real Christian, I even followed all the stuff that contradicted the other stuff.

(HT to Homer Simpson)
Posted by: jeffox on July 02 2008,02:06

Hey there Mr. LCD - I have a few questions fer ya:

You wrote before that you don't care for the IRS and wondered why Mr. Hovind was in prison for tax evasion, right?

Well then, would you be so kind as to explain how we (as a society) go about paying for things that we all use - things like, oh, umm, roads?  Or bridges?  Or water distribution systems?  

How about protectionary things - like police and firemen?  or flood controls?

How do you propose to protect us (society) from things like corporate pollution in the name of profit?  How about from religio-fascism?  

And just what are we supposed to do when a natural disaster occurs?  Watch the masses suffer on TV?  Wait (usually forever) for a church to provide monetary help?  Or a business?  Or maybe we ought to cover disaster relief from taxes, too, eh?

Good.  Now that you agree with the rest of us that taxes are necessary - please do like all of the rest of us and PAY YOUR FAIR SHARE AND SHUT THE FUCK UP.

Hovind is in prison where he belongs.  He tried to scam the system, nothing more, nothing less.  He's no better than a thief.  Because that's what tax evaders are.  If you have a problem with that, LCD, well, I'm sure you can find someplace else to live that doesn't tax its residents.

Good luck.  Don't bother writing.  We know how much fun you're having.    :)    :)    :)    :)     :)
Posted by: Freelurker on July 02 2008,02:57

Quote (Wolfhound @ July 01 2008,16:17)
What the fuck is wrong with engineers?  Almost every time we get some flaming godbot spewing AIG crapola like it has some sort of value, it's an engineer.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I am also and engineer and I can assure you that you are not seeing a representative sample of engineers' views regarding science.

When you see that a high percentage of the creos are engineers and technicians, part of the explanation is that this is just the flip side of there being so few creo scientists. (Scientists, engineers, and technicians constitute a very high percentage of the people who care either way about the issues discussed here; they are the ones who like to have technical, or at least technical-sounding, explanations for things.)

When you see that there are so many more scientists than engineers arguing the pro-science side, it is simply because it is science that is under attack, not engineering. (To be consistent the creos should be going after engineering too, but that's another topic.)
           

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Or do they call blocklayers "cement engineers" these days like garbage men are "sanitation engineers"?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Yes, that's part of it too.
         

---------------------QUOTE-------------------
To all of you engineers out there who are not asshats, you have my sympathy.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Rather than give us sympathy, just welcome us to the pro-science side of the argument. Engineers have a lot more in common with scientists than they do with IDists/creationists. Proper comparisons between Science, Engineering, and ID/Creationism actually undermine ID/Creationist positions.
Posted by: lcd on July 02 2008,08:19

I was going to respond more on this thread, but why bother?

What I've been told about Pro-Evolutionist Boards is partially correct.  The truth it is much worse.

Assassinator, thank you for at least trying to be civil.  I appreciate that.  As for most of the rest you, have fun.  Bask in the glow of having to successfully shouted down any possible discussion.  Your insults and attitude really show how bankrupt th belief in Evolution really is.  You can't show anything so you demand things that you yourselves don't produce.

Little things like evidence and facts.

Speaking of facts, for the evolutionists who wanted me to use incorrect and other things that are just wrong, that shows how deep you'll go to lie.  So what else do you lie about here?  How much "Lying for Darwin" do you do?

Hitler was NOT an atheist.  He didn't follow God to be sure but not following God and being an atheist are two different things.  As for why Mao jailed and killed "Darwinists", well he was a Communist dictator.  He used whatever he wanted to control China and terror was one.  Perhaps he jailed and killed Darwinists because even though they may have been liberal ivory tower types, maybe they were only fellow travellers and "not true communists".

When it comes to condemning others who feel they are Christian but they pick and choose which of God's laws they adhere to, I said too much.  It is not my job to judge them and for that I am sorry that I did.  I wouldn't do what they do and I will council them on what I believe, but in the end God has given them free will to do as they wish.  It is my belief that the road to Heaven is through His Son Jesus and that road is narrow.

No, I am not leaving for good.  I am taking a break.  It seems I posted too much for some people and well, I am not happy with them either.  The best is to back off, cool down and come back later.

Besides, it's the 4th of July weekend coming up and who has such a poor life that they sit at the computer when there's so much to do?

I'll be at the beach starting tomorrow afternoon so have a nice 4th people.
Posted by: SpeedDemon on July 02 2008,08:34

Quote (lcd @ July 02 2008,08:19)
I was going to respond more on this thread, but why bother?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Condensed version:
Wah!
Darwinists so mean!
It's Jebus, all the way down!
Mini-flounce!
Wah!
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on July 02 2008,08:45

Quote (lcd @ July 02 2008,08:19)
It seems I posted too much for some people and well, I am not happy with them either.  
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That's exactly wrong. You certainly have posted a lot, but you never posted anything coherent or factual. People kept asking you to provide examples of all of your claims:

How do you measure "information" in organisms so that one could test your claim that it always decreases with mutations?

Give us an example of the predictive power of ID, since you claimed that "ID can explain those things far better than anything I've ever seen evolution even try."

I've been waiting patiently; I've not been uncivil. But you've never progressed beyond unsupported assertions, whinging about persecution here, irrelevant scare stories about atheism (not science), and evasions.

If that's the best you can do, please stay away. And don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Posted by: cogzoid on July 02 2008,09:34

It's not possible to be shouted down via text.  You can choose who and what to reply to with every posting of yours.  You chose to respond to the attacks, and you steered clear of the honest questions concerning science.  This is a telling sign.  If you were to respond to a science question of your choice, and have a vigorous discussion about, say, information, or went through a thorough demonstration of the explanatory filter, all of the evil Darwinists would be able to focus on the questions you did answer and not worry about the ones you didn't.

By the way, it is worth mentioning that the Theory of Evolution is an explanation for how life developed on this planet.  It's not a moral compass.  Nobody here is advocating culling the weak, or slaughtering the unfit.  Just like the Theory of Gravity explains why things fall towards earth.  It doesn't mean we should go around making things fall.  It's an explanation for how our universe works.  We don't have to help it any way.  It is what it is, and our morals are what they are.  Blaming mass murderers on Darwin is like blaming a bridge collapse on Newton.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 02 2008,09:39



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
little things like evidence and facts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



pick some that prove all the evilutionists are wrong and the bible predicts it better.  Hey, just for brevity why don't you just take the evilution side?  you don't have to prove your version to be more likely.  You don't even have to have another version.  Show us the science.  You've got it, right?

What is it that you know to be wrong about the  Common descent of organisms via speciation from common ancestors, mediated by mutation, selection, adaptation and ecological interaction, bounded by geography?

What is wrong with that sentence?  

ps wah wah wah does not go over well here.  neither the beating people with the cross part.  if you have



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
little things like evidence and facts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



then leave the rhetorical tactics at home.  

if you do not have


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
little things like evidence and facts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



just admit it.  The Lard despises a liar.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 02 2008,09:49

Quote (lcd @ July 02 2008,09:19)
Little things like evidence and facts.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Like a towering mountain of 150 years worth of evidence and facts, from every relevant scientific discipline, continuing to mount every single day, even as we speak?  You mean little things like that?

Ask Dr. Behe about the little tiny bit of it that was dropped unceremoniously in his lap in a little courtroom in Dover.  I wonder if he's deigned to read any of it yet.

And where are your facts, lcd?  Where lies your evidence?

A dusty old anthology of myths, cobbled together by like-minded old white men, for the purpose of subjugation and control and money and power?

Books by known and demonstrated frauds and con-men, refuted and exposed for the tripe and drivel they are, mercilessly, unrelentingly, by actual scientists with the expertise so utterly lacking in their authors?

Random internet whines by sycophantic buffoons who ban and silence those who would educate them?

Special Sunday sermons from delusional Pastor Joe, ranting and spitting and frothing at the evils of reality?

Where, lcd?  Where does your evidence lie?  It lies not in a lab or in a field.  

It lies not in the literature rigorously tested and found competent by biologists who give their lives for the betterment of mankind and the furtherance of knowledge.

Your "evidence" comes straight from the board room of a marketing department in Seattle.  If you are real, then you are a fool, wallowing in your ignorance, happy and content to be a pig in his sty, oblivious to your date with the slaughterhouse.  You are nothing more than a commodity to be sold at market to line the pockets of the gluttonous pig farmers at the Discovery Institute.

I understand O'Leary < has placed a bid for your ham-hocks >.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 02 2008,09:52

easy Lou he is not real.  he's not real.  he's not real.  he's not real.  shhhhhhhh.  no he is not real.

(pssssst hey lcd, if you are real you better come up with some facts real soon or my friend here might sacrifice you to Darwin, or at the altar of Karl Marx!!!!!)
Posted by: Gunthernacus on July 02 2008,10:36

Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:16)

Here's a shock for you.

I have no problem confirming that ID is part of Creationism.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



No shock at all, I was pointing it out to you and contrasting it with your statement that ID is not religious.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:16)
What I don't agree with though is that without the Bible, ID would fall apart.

I feel just the opposite.  Imagine a world where God unknown and Jesus hadn't saved anyone.  A truly terrible place.  I could see real scientists looking for better ways to kill other people for their evil governments and looking into bio warfare.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



So war and violence are things of the past in your world?  Just for fun, why don't you make a list of the top 5 industrialized nations where Christianity is the dominant religion and then a list of the top 5 nations with the largest nuclear/biological weapons stockpiles.

   
Quote (lcd @ July 01 2008,14:16)

The goal is to "build a better bug".  The scientists start and some of them notice the unmistakable signs of design in these microbes.  Their conclusion is that someone already designed them.  Perhaps that is what can help them discover God and all of His Glory.

So ID can lead people back to God and His Word as well as His Word leading people to ID and His Creation.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



You didn't answer my questions about the meaning that ID offers in contrast to, what you called, meaningless evolution - yet you provide an excellent example for why I ask.  "Build a better bug" - the bugs already exist.  Nasty diseases, fatal diseases caused by horrible bugs with the "unmistakable signs of design".  How do the unmistakable signs of design in these horrible bugs suggest to the scientists that they shouldn't build a better one?  Why should they think killing people is wrong when there are so many clever and efficient ways of killing people unmistakably designed into the environment?  (To clarify:  I don't think it is okay to kill people or build bio weapons, nor do I think that atheists in general think those things.  I am asking you about these things to contrast your concepts of "meaningful ID" vs. "meaningless evolution".)

ETA:  Erasmus is probably right.  I'll wager it is FtK, itself, that a) is cleverly turning the tables on the den of sockpuppets and b) okay, it's not so clever, but it just can't stay away.
Posted by: GCT on July 02 2008,19:51

If e coli gained the ability to metabolize citrate via a mutation, how is this a loss of information?  How much information was lost?  How did a loss of information lead to a new ability?

Knowing that we have 2 fewer chromosome pairs than apes, and that we can trace this to a mutation that led to a fusion event, would you say that our genome carries less information than the genome of apes?

Getting back to the OP, is Kent Hovind a "True Xian"?
Posted by: Wolfhound on July 02 2008,22:25

Quote (GCT @ July 02 2008,19:51)
Getting back to the OP, is Kent Hovind a "True Xian"?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Obviously not!  He wasn't "rendering unto Caesar" like he was 'sposed to.
Posted by: jeffox on July 03 2008,00:11

No offense, but I think Hovind's actual convictions came about on money laundering and conspiracy to launder money, but the underlying reason was his lack of desire to pay taxes on his museum's profits.  One of the interesting things involved in this case is the fact that all Hovind had to do was fill out the proper paperwork, and he would have been off the hook.  He was told that by qualified lawyers and chose not to take their advice.

Anyway, my 2c.
Posted by: BWE on July 03 2008,02:14

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,15:29)
lcd,

Dude, I'm telling you.  Skip the Chinese communists.

They're just not as sexy as Nazis.

Go with the Nazis.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't know about that Lou. I mean, who's hotter, blonds or brunettes? What about Chinese women? Huh?
Posted by: Jim_Wynne on July 03 2008,07:16

Quote (jeffox @ July 03 2008,00:11)
No offense, but I think Hovind's actual convictions came about on money laundering and conspiracy to launder money, but the underlying reason was his lack of desire to pay taxes on his museum's profits.  One of the interesting things involved in this case is the fact that all Hovind had to do was fill out the proper paperwork, and he would have been off the hook.  He was told that by qualified lawyers and chose not to take their advice.

Anyway, my 2c.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Hovind's convictions were for failure to pay income and FICA taxes on behalf of his employees and "structuring" withdrawals from banks in order to avoid reporting requirements (cash transactions > $10,000 have to be reported to the IRS).  There were no money-laundering or conspiracy charges afaik.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 03 2008,10:08

Quote (BWE @ July 03 2008,03:14)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,15:29)
lcd,

Dude, I'm telling you.  Skip the Chinese communists.

They're just not as sexy as Nazis.

Go with the Nazis.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't know about that Lou. I mean, who's hotter, blonds or brunettes? What about Chinese women? Huh?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I love 'em all, so long as they got brains.
Posted by: Louis on July 03 2008,11:16

Quote (Lou FCD @ July 03 2008,16:08)
Quote (BWE @ July 03 2008,03:14)
Quote (Lou FCD @ July 01 2008,15:29)
lcd,

Dude, I'm telling you.  Skip the Chinese communists.

They're just not as sexy as Nazis.

Go with the Nazis.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I don't know about that Lou. I mean, who's hotter, blonds or brunettes? What about Chinese women? Huh?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I love 'em all, so long as they got brains.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


As it will upset DaveTard, I have to confess I love me some Eskimo Wimmin.....well in theory I suppose, I've never actually met any.

Louis

P.S. Just remember that you are in no way allowed to rationally answer that question. And if anyone says different, misquote them, have a huff and storm out.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 03 2008,11:58

ahhhh the after-tard of skeptic.  good stuff.
Posted by: lcd on July 03 2008,16:55

Okay all you Nazi Evolutionists*

(* is this better Lou?)

Don't bait those that are trying to just get me mad.

Check

Okay, I need to deliver up a "Theory of Information".

So I say that there is Information in DNA.  I am also saying that this Information can be destroyed but idea that useful info can come about over random processes is not possible.

Now what type of Information is there in DNA?  I doubt that the analogy that it is a Document while easy to understand is a very accurate statement.  After all we really haven't mapped out the human DNA yet, right?  So it will be tough to accually see what's going on.

But we can still do this:

1:  My Theory is that DNA has Information that can be destroyed.

2:  IT also includes that DNA has Information that is front loaded in the DNA.  These parts become active when other parts become de-activated.

3:  The prediction that I will state for now, yes I'll do more but I have to learn the terminology better and I'll have to do more studying, is that when you change DNA the function it controls is lost.

As I said, more later but the family is home.

Happy 4th everyone.
Posted by: Dr.GH on July 03 2008,17:08

LCD, You haven't got a theory yet. "1:  My Theory is that DNA has Information that can be destroyed." is not a theory. A theory is an organized set of statements which describe and predict the behavior of a system, or group of observations. A theory must make predictions that are novel.

You have not even defined "information" or shown that it can be "destroyed" or that it can be carried or represented by DNA.

See, < "My Theory" > for a short distraction on the nature of theory.
Posted by: Lou FCD on July 03 2008,17:18

Quote (lcd @ July 03 2008,17:55)
Okay all you Nazi Evolutionists*

(* is this better Lou?)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




A little better, it has a more finished feel to it.

Quote (lcd @ July 03 2008,17:55)
Okay, I need to deliver up a "Theory of Information".
---------------------QUOTE-------------------




Theory is such a strong word.  Perhaps you might look up what it means to a scientist, and get off on a better footing.

Quote (lcd @ July 03 2008,17:55)
So I say that there is Information in DNA.  I am also saying that this Information can be destroyed but idea that useful info can come about over random processes is not possible.

Now what type of Information is there in DNA?  I doubt that the analogy that it is a Document while easy to understand is a very accurate statement.  After all we really haven't mapped out the human DNA yet, right?  So it will be tough to accually see what's going on.

But we can still do this:

1:  My Theory is that DNA has Information that can be destroyed.

2:  IT also includes that DNA has Information that is front loaded in the DNA.  These parts become active when other parts become de-activated.

3:  The prediction that I will state for now, yes I'll do more but I have to learn the terminology better and I'll have to do more studying, is that when you change DNA the function it controls is lost.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Have you tested this idea?  How would you go about that?  How would you measure the information and what units of measurement would you use?

Has anyone ever even attempted to do this measurement, or defined the units?  If so, could you provide a link to the papers?  (I prefer .pdfs myself.)

Tell me how you can tell if this information is front-loaded.  What test would conclusively determine that the information is in fact front-loaded?  What result would disprove your idea?  How long ago was it front-loaded, and how did you determine that?

Assuming you can confirm the information is real, that it has some meaning, that it can be measured, and that it is conclusively shown with evidence that it is front-loaded, who front-loaded it, and how would you go about testing that?  Was it Yahweh?  How do you know it wasn't Zeus or Odin, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or JanieBelle or purple octopus aliens from 55 Cancri?

Quote (lcd @ July 03 2008,17:55)
As I said, more later but the family is home.

Happy 4th everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Enjoy.  You have much work to do upon your return before you can bandy about the term "theory" in this context.  So relax and enjoy the beer and hotdogs, it may be a very long time before you get out of the lab again.
Posted by: bystander on July 03 2008,17:37

Quote (lcd @ July 04 2008,04:55)
Okay all you Nazi Evolutionists*

(* is this better Lou?)

Don't bait those that are trying to just get me mad.

Check

Okay, I need to deliver up a "Theory of Information".

So I say that there is Information in DNA.  I am also saying that this Information can be destroyed but idea that useful info can come about over random processes is not possible.

Now what type of Information is there in DNA?  I doubt that the analogy that it is a Document while easy to understand is a very accurate statement.  After all we really haven't mapped out the human DNA yet, right?  So it will be tough to accually see what's going on.

But we can still do this:

1:  My Theory is that DNA has Information that can be destroyed.

2:  IT also includes that DNA has Information that is front loaded in the DNA.  These parts become active when other parts become de-activated.

3:  The prediction that I will state for now, yes I'll do more but I have to learn the terminology better and I'll have to do more studying, is that when you change DNA the function it controls is lost.

As I said, more later but the family is home.

Happy 4th everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is where the Dembskis of the world are actually evil. For people like lcd it is not a matter of learning new stuff, it is a matter of unlearning the wrong things. Saying "Information cannot be created" doesn't make sense at any level and Dembski and co are still trying to find a definition of information for which this is true.

Whats wrong with the following:

1. A mutation happens which changes DNA
2. The mutation gives an advantage to an individual.
3. The individual survives to have more offspring.
4. The mutation gets fixed in the population

I know that for the experts I've left out a lot of detail but lcd needs to show why this is wrong.
Posted by: stevestory on July 03 2008,19:19

The prima facie absurd things you are saying suggests to me you aren't sincere, lcd, but just a guy having fun provoking people. We've seen that type before. Ghost of Paley is an example. In the event that you actually believe the things you're saying, check out this link, where you can learn why the things you say are trivially wrong:

< Index to Creationist Claims >
Posted by: Badger3k on July 03 2008,21:12

Quote (bystander @ July 03 2008,17:37)
Quote (lcd @ July 04 2008,04:55)
Okay all you Nazi Evolutionists*

(* is this better Lou?)

Don't bait those that are trying to just get me mad.

Check

Okay, I need to deliver up a "Theory of Information".

So I say that there is Information in DNA.  I am also saying that this Information can be destroyed but idea that useful info can come about over random processes is not possible.

Now what type of Information is there in DNA?  I doubt that the analogy that it is a Document while easy to understand is a very accurate statement.  After all we really haven't mapped out the human DNA yet, right?  So it will be tough to accually see what's going on.

But we can still do this:

1:  My Theory is that DNA has Information that can be destroyed.

2:  IT also includes that DNA has Information that is front loaded in the DNA.  These parts become active when other parts become de-activated.

3:  The prediction that I will state for now, yes I'll do more but I have to learn the terminology better and I'll have to do more studying, is that when you change DNA the function it controls is lost.

As I said, more later but the family is home.

Happy 4th everyone.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


This is where the Dembskis of the world are actually evil. For people like lcd it is not a matter of learning new stuff, it is a matter of unlearning the wrong things. Saying "Information cannot be created" doesn't make sense at any level and Dembski and co are still trying to find a definition of information for which this is true.

Whats wrong with the following:

1. A mutation happens which changes DNA
2. The mutation gives an advantage to an individual.
3. The individual survives to have more offspring.
4. The mutation gets fixed in the population

I know that for the experts I've left out a lot of detail but lcd needs to show why this is wrong.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Why do I think of Anne Elk (or is it Ann) ("This is my theory...").

Given that, to many creationists, there can be no beneficial mutations by definition, most of what you suggest is just not possible.  If it is beneficial, it is either front-loaded, or else the signature of Teh Designer Which Is Not G-O-D.
Posted by: jeffox on July 03 2008,21:56

@ Jim Wynn above:

Thank you for the clarification(s) of my post.  While not technically correct, I'm pretty sure that making multiple under $10K bank transactions is one of the definitions of money laundering.  The conspiracy charges arose because it wasn't just him but his family that were involved (primarily wife).  But you are more right than I am.  Again, thank you for clarifying; and I stand corrected!
Posted by: cogzoid on July 03 2008,22:04

lcd,

There was an attempt at providing an example of the fruitfulness of the Explanatory Filter.  Despite this challenge being issued on a creationist forum, the host was unable to provide a single example of the Explanatory Filter.  To his credit, he was very civil and honest about his attempt.  If you've got the time you can read it here: < http://thesciphishow.com/forums....c=114.0 >

I was BottomFeeder in that forum.  I kept pushing for numbers to be used in the mathematical formula.  It never happened.  I'm curious to hear if you've ever seen an example of the Explanatory Filter in use.  Perhaps you'd like to show us!  If the math of this filter works, you can just show us.  Numbers are hard to refute.

I'm going to guess that you haven't seen an example done.  But, you've heard it's effective, and it helps to prove your side, so you believe it.  But, I challenge you to be the most critical of your own theories.  It's what good scientists do.
Posted by: Reed on July 03 2008,22:27

Quote (lcd @ July 03 2008,14:55)
Okay, I need to deliver up a "Theory of Information".

So I say that there is Information in DNA.  I am also saying that this Information can be destroyed but idea that useful info can come about over random processes is not possible.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


How about starting by defining what you mean by "information" ?

Wait. Before you do that, read the link stevestory provided.

All assuming you are actually interested in having a coherent discussion, and not just yanking chains... < Poe > can be a real SOB sometimes.
Posted by: bystander on July 04 2008,00:13

Quote (Badger3k @ July 04 2008,09:12)
Given that, to many creationists, there can be no beneficial mutations by definition, most of what you suggest is just not possible.  If it is beneficial, it is either front-loaded, or else the signature of Teh Designer Which Is Not G-O-D.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It would be nice for them to prove it someday.

I feel another afdave thing happening. I wonder how many posts between beneficial mutations never happen to beneficial mutations rarely happen
Posted by: Arden Chatfield on July 04 2008,02:18

Quote (bystander @ July 03 2008,22:13)
 
Quote (Badger3k @ July 04 2008,09:12)
Given that, to many creationists, there can be no beneficial mutations by definition, most of what you suggest is just not possible.  If it is beneficial, it is either front-loaded, or else the signature of Teh Designer Which Is Not G-O-D.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


It would be nice for them to prove it someday.

I feel another afdave thing happening. I wonder how many posts between beneficial mutations never happen to beneficial mutations rarely happen
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Here's the progression as I predict it:

beneficial mutations never happen
beneficial mutations rarely happen
beneficial mutations seldom happen
beneficial mutations happen, but they're not important

Sprinkle in random snarls about atheists and Darwinism being a religion.

(Unless LCD is Ghost of Paley, in which case it probably won't be this linear.)
Posted by: Louis on July 04 2008,08:20

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ July 04 2008,08:18)
[SNIP]

(Unless LCD is Ghost of Paley, in which case it probably won't be this linear.)
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


But there will be more pictures of sweaty wrestler men and various bits of homophobia/racism. If we're lucky it will also involve geocentrism because that was so much fun (sarcasm!).

Louis
Posted by: lcd on July 07 2008,10:28

To put your minds at ease, I am not the Ghost of Parly(?).

But to get back to the subject at hand.

From reading, thanks for all of those links, I've come to the conclusion that ID for Evolutionary Scientists would be placed under the heading of "Postulate".  That is it is a proposal on how something works.

The next step is "Hypothesis", which the Postulate is used to make predictions.

The next step is to actually test the Hypothesis and if the predictions it makes turn out to be real and observed, the Hypothesis becomes a "Theory".

"Proofs" can only be applied to math theories as when one puts down 2+2=4, it will always remain the same.

I guess right now my best is an untested Hypothesis, and even then I think it would be rather thin.  I'll need to work on it more.  But hey, who was it that took 20 years in their last lab experiment?  Also, I doubt if it took Newton just a few days or weeks to come up with Calculus.  No, I have no illusions I am as smart as Newton.  But then again I don't believe I'm as much of a miserable individual either.

The ID Hypothesis is that the Information contained in the Genetic Code can be found and measured.  The thing is that the Information is not linear.

Information contain in a Strand of DNA is not continuous.  Parts of the DNA affect other parts in ways we may not know yet.

Got to get back to work.  I hope I'll find Scientists who do this for a living looking into this.  Until later.
Posted by: Albatrossity2 on July 07 2008,11:10

lcd

You might benefit from reading this < thread at ISCID, >and this < topic > here at AE. It might save you from making some of the mistakes that others have made in the past...
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 07 2008,11:17

< Another link > to the topic here, one that points to the single-page archive of the whole thread.
Posted by: UnMark on July 07 2008,18:00

Quote (Wesley R. Elsberry @ July 07 2008,11:17)
< Another link > to the topic here, one that points to the single-page archive of the whole thread.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I get a 404, Wes.
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 07 2008,19:13

Interesting. I can't drop in the original URL, the board software mangles it. Trying a < TinyURL link >.
Posted by: GCT on July 07 2008,21:02

Quote (lcd @ July 07 2008,11:28)
From reading, thanks for all of those links, I've come to the conclusion that ID for Evolutionary Scientists would be placed under the heading of "Postulate".  That is it is a proposal on how something works.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I suggest you go back and try to understand what you read a little better and then learn a bit more about evolution before you pass judgement.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
I guess right now my best is an untested Hypothesis, and even then I think it would be rather thin.  I'll need to work on it more....The ID Hypothesis is that the Information contained in the Genetic Code can be found and measured.  The thing is that the Information is not linear.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Again, you might want to study what you read a bit more.  First off, ID does not have a hypothesis.  Even if you come up with a defintion for information (still lacking from you) and show how it can apply to DNA, you are still lacking a link from ID to DNA having information.  IOW, you're invoking a literal non sequitor.
Posted by: Reed on July 08 2008,01:19

Quote (lcd @ July 07 2008,08:28)
But hey, who was it that took 20 years in their last lab experiment?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Perhaps you are referring to < Richard Lenski's > E. coli experiment ?

FWIW, it isn't a single, 20 year long experiment. Rather, it's an ongoing study, which has produced many interesting results over that period. The most recent results were reported widely, including right here < on PT >.

These results (full text for many papers can be found on Lenski's site) may be directly relevant to your current attempt to state an ID hypothesis. In particular, you might want to consider how they relate to your ideas about information. He also has an interesting page of suggested reading on the history and philosophy of science, mostly focused on evolution and related conflicts.

If nothing else, the contrast between the output of a real evolutionary scientist and that of ID "researchers" may be instructive.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on July 08 2008,08:25

lcd

the notion that 'information' may be measured implies that there is a standard scale for such measurements with meaningful (in terms of other phenomena) differences between units.

note that no such scale exists.  in fact, it seems likely that no such scale could exist, given the caveat that there be meaningful differences between units.

what is the difference between 1 hovind of information and 10 hovinds?

if point nucleotide mutations or substitutions cause changes in the amino acids that result in new folds or structures of the resulting proteins, how can you compress these data into such a scale?

doesn't this seem to be ridiculous on it's face?  even before you even look for a scientist doing this 'for a living' (please note that this caveat includes many of the hacks and swindlers that are bilking the faithful in the ID movement).
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on July 09 2008,20:05

< More YEC humor >.
Posted by: tmac1238 on May 31 2009,13:23

Quote (GCT @ June 28 2008,13:17)
Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, he bilked people out of their money, he set back education in the country (which does affect us all), and he set tax-payers back with his tax evasion schemes (which also affects us all)...and that's just for starters.

Tmac1238:  So no one bilked us out of money sending our sons and daughters to die in Iraq for "peace" and "freedom?"  Why then is more and more money then being spent to build detention centers?  Is America in trouble now because newcomers are smart?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Where he deserves to be.

tmac1238:  But people can disagree with fascists.  You speak as if you don't need to be on debate forums nor listen to what America thinks.  How come America doesn't agree with you?  How come they are reeling now in economic pain and their non-diseased minds are not even on Dr. Hovind?  Is it because they also didn't agree with fascists?

Ministers preach similar things Kent Hovind preaches every Sunday.  Did you miss that because you are bright?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Nope, just those who break the law.

tmac1238:  You mean there are others in jail?  Not ministers who preach on Sunday?  Your posts don't seem to indicate there are others in jail, and now the country is going bankrupt because of what Dr. Hovind has done?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It does not say that anyone will be framed for crimes, and besides, Hovind wasn't framed.

tmac1238: Neither were Sunday-school ministers and teachers.  Leave it to the atheists to know what the bible says.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



And I don't support the Patriot Act, which incidentally, your friends in Christ enacted.

tmac1238:  But you do support the Patriot Act merely by what topics are giving you hot-flashes.  If you can report a single malady Dr. Hovind has done and can't see the Patriot Act, you do support it and are part of the problem.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Which, again, your friends in Christ enacted.  Perhaps you and your Xian friends should denounce those other Xians.

tmac1238:  You mean you then could be posting against my "Christian" friends now instead of destroying that flea collar because a very effective Creationist is in jail?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why are you calling for propaganda?  Anyway, there are organizations that are fighting against the fascist leanings of our very Xian president...like the ACLU.  Perhaps you should support them.

tmac1238:  Perhaps supporting them would be better than wasting your time because an enemy of yours is in jail.  He is obviously not an enemy of the American people.  More intelligent people don't even know his name.  They have other things to worry about.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Quote (tmac1238 @ June 28 2008,08:59)
What is the secret of this massive hatred against Kent Hovind?  What did he do to any of you personally?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Well, he bilked people out of their money, he set back education in the country (which does affect us all), and he set tax-payers back with his tax evasion schemes (which also affects us all)...and that's just for starters.

Tmac1238:  So no one bilked us out of money sending our sons and daughters to die in Iraq for "peace" and "freedom?"  Why then is more and more money then being spent to build detention centers?  Is America in trouble now because newcomers are smart?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Well he's in jail!  He's in jail!
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Where he deserves to be.

tmac1238:  But people can disagree with fascists.  You speak as if you don't need to be on debate forums nor listen to what America thinks.  How come America doesn't agree with you?  How come they are reeling now in economic pain and their non-diseased minds are not even on Dr. Hovind?  Is it because they also didn't agree with fascists?

Ministers preach similar things Kent Hovind preaches every Sunday.  Did you miss that because you are bright?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
So you all are getting practice making fun of him in jail, practicing till the day God's people are there?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Nope, just those who break the law.

tmac1238:  You mean there are others in jail?  Not ministers who preach on Sunday?  Your posts don't seem to indicate there are others in jail, and now the country is going bankrupt because of what Dr. Hovind has done?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
We believe in the bible, and that books says a time will come when they will be hated of all nations--literally framed for crimes. (Matthew 24:9).
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



It does not say that anyone will be framed for crimes, and besides, Hovind wasn't framed.

tmac1238: Neither were Sunday-school ministers and teachers.  Leave it to the atheists to know what the bible says.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The issues surrounding this have already started.  The Patriot Act is set up claiming any American can be detained, condemned and destroyed in secret without them having opportunity to prove their innocence.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



And I don't support the Patriot Act, which incidentally, your friends in Christ enacted.

tmac1238:  But you do support the Patriot Act merely by what topics are giving you hot-flashes.  If you can report a single malady Dr. Hovind has done and can't see the Patriot Act, you do support it and are part of the problem.



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The Communists and Nazis already had secret courts, secret trials, intrusive government and torture before we adopted them on paper.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Which, again, your friends in Christ enacted.  Perhaps you and your Xian friends should denounce those other Xians.

tmac1238:  You mean you then could be posting against my "Christian" friends now instead of destroying that flea collar because a very effective Creationist is in jail?



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Do we also have a massive propaganda team everywhere--even on the internet--who work with unity to push some of the most ridiculous things making America go backward, here?
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Why are you calling for propaganda?  Anyway, there are organizations that are fighting against the fascist leanings of our very Xian president...like the ACLU.  Perhaps you should support them.

tmac1238:  Perhaps supporting them would be better than wasting your time because an enemy of yours is in jail.  He is obviously not an enemy of the American people.  More intelligent people don't even know his name.  They have other things to worry about.
Posted by: Louis on May 31 2009,15:41

Trout Mac is that you?

Louis
Posted by: deadman_932 on May 31 2009,16:02

Quote (Louis @ May 31 2009,15:41)
Trout Mac is that you?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Could be...same quality of logic.
Posted by: Louis on June 01 2009,03:51

Quote (deadman_932 @ May 31 2009,22:02)
Quote (Louis @ May 31 2009,15:41)
Trout Mac is that you?

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Could be...same quality of logic.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Tragically that's merely possibly indicative, not diagnostic.

Oh H. sapiens! I weep, I weep!

Louis
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on June 01 2009,06:49

the epic fail of quote tags suggest that this post is indeed indicative of something
Posted by: Louis on June 01 2009,07:42

Quote (Erasmus, FCD @ June 01 2009,12:49)
the epic fail of quote tags suggest that this post is indeed indicative of something
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That something clearly being the lack of a truly world class therapist and some carefully administered pharmaceuticals in Tmac's life.

Louis
Posted by: J-Dog on June 01 2009,08:51

Quote (Louis @ June 01 2009,07:42)
Quote (Erasmus @ FCD,June 01 2009,12:49)
the epic fail of quote tags suggest that this post is indeed indicative of something
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


That something clearly being the lack of a truly world class therapist and some carefully administered pharmaceuticals in Tmac's life.

Louis
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


You call that a life? HA!

TMAC - please post and give us all the details of what it is really like to live in your Mom's basement...

I am sure that all of us - even Louis - will be much more understanding once we are aware of the awful pressure you go through,  knowing that you are truly "different" and seperated from normal society and lifestyle.
Posted by: Erasmus, FCD on June 01 2009,09:37

<tm>

Hey, I'm not gifted, I'm CHOSEN.  There's a difference!

</tm>
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on June 01 2009,11:20

< WND on Hovind >
Posted by: Wesley R. Elsberry on June 01 2009,11:29

It sounds like Hovind still has under-powered legal representation. Of course, how WND reports things could make anybody look stupid. But they specifically report the lawyer as arguing to the Supreme Court that the "structuring" law shouldn't apply because the Hovinds used transactions of less than $10K. Hello? That's precisely the situation that the "structuring" law applies to.

But that is followed with an argument that there should only be one count against each of the Hovinds based on the "structuring" statute. That seems at least arguable, since one under-$10K withdrawal doesn't make the case for "structuring"; that has to come from a pattern of activity and multiple sub-$10K withdrawals.

So it is unclear from the WND article whether the lawyer is making two separate arguments, one that there should be no charge on structuring (which is obviously an idiotic argument to be making), and the other that if structuring charges are in play, that there should only be one count per defendant (which seems to me to at least be arguable), or if only one of those was intended and the reporter mucked things up badly.
Posted by: Lou FCD on June 06 2009,08:24



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Attorney Shawn Perez of Las Vegas, who worked on Hovind's Supreme Court filing, told WND the writ of certiorari, or petition, makes two arguments. One is that the structuring law does not apply, because the Hovinds never deposited or withdrew more than $10,000 on any one day. The 45 single bank transactions should be charged as one count, not as 45 separate violations of the law, the brief argues. Each transaction was charged as a criminal count, yet none of them, by themselves, constituted a violation of the law, it explains.

The other argument in the Supreme Court filing is that under the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995, the IRS must explain on a 1040 form what it plans to do with the answers it receives and indicate whether the response is voluntary or mandatory.

The chance of the Supreme Court accepting any case is slim, but Perez said he hopes the structuring argument will get the court's attention, because the justices took a hard look at money laundering in the past year.

"His case is really tough because he didn't present a defense (at trial)," Perez said. "You don't leave much room for argument on appeal."

Perez said it's possible Hovind will find out this month if his case has been accepted. But, regardless of the outcome, Hovind's situation won't change anytime soon, because the earliest the appeal could be heard would be 2010.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



My emphasis.


Posted by: Lou FCD on June 06 2009,08:32

How bizarre:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Hovind's son, Eric, asserts his parents and the ministry he now heads are not scofflaws.

"My father says very clearly, if you owe a tax, by law, you should pay it," he told WND. "We are not tax protesters."


Eric Hovind

But Eric Hovind acknowledges his father has espoused principles and beliefs shared by leading tax resisters.

In 1996, Kent Hovind tried to file for bankruptcy to avoid paying federal income taxes. He told a judge at a hearing he did not believe the United States, the Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Attorney's Office "have jurisdiction in this matter."

"I sincerely believe that I am not a person required to file a Federal Income Tax Return," he said. "This belief is a result of extensive research that I have done."

Asked by the judge where he lived, Hovind replied, "I live in the church of Jesus Christ, which is located all over the world. I have no residence."

Kent Hovind has stated he believes the Bible "teaches us to obey the authority over us."

But he contends the "IRS is not the authority over me any more than the government of Japan is."

Lindsey Springer, the founder of an IRS watchdog group who has advised Hovind,  argues Hovind merely insists that the federal government adhere to the Constitution and its own laws, which protect religion and religious entities.

"You're supposed to have a right to exercise your religion in such a way that taxation can't come in and be utilized to destroy it. That's the First Amendment. That's what it means," said Springer, the head of Tulsa-based Bondage Breakers Ministries, which aims to "expose the violations of the written law committed by the Internal Revenue Service."

Eric Hovind told WND his father sent numerous letters to the IRS, asking exactly which laws apply to a 508 © (1) (a) church ministry, but he received no response.

"Now the government would look at that, just to be honest, as probably a tax protester-type stance," he said.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



How bizarre, how bizarre.
Posted by: JohnW on June 08 2009,11:21

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 06 2009,06:32)
How bizarre:



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Hovind's son, Eric, asserts his parents and the ministry he now heads are not scofflaws.

"My father says very clearly, if you owe a tax, by law, you should pay it," he told WND. "We are not tax protesters."


Eric Hovind

But Eric Hovind acknowledges his father has espoused principles and beliefs shared by leading tax resisters.

In 1996, Kent Hovind tried to file for bankruptcy to avoid paying federal income taxes. He told a judge at a hearing he did not believe the United States, the Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Attorney's Office "have jurisdiction in this matter."

"I sincerely believe that I am not a person required to file a Federal Income Tax Return," he said. "This belief is a result of extensive research that I have done."

Asked by the judge where he lived, Hovind replied, "I live in the church of Jesus Christ, which is located all over the world. I have no residence."

Kent Hovind has stated he believes the Bible "teaches us to obey the authority over us."

But he contends the "IRS is not the authority over me any more than the government of Japan is."

Lindsey Springer, the founder of an IRS watchdog group who has advised Hovind,  argues Hovind merely insists that the federal government adhere to the Constitution and its own laws, which protect religion and religious entities.

"You're supposed to have a right to exercise your religion in such a way that taxation can't come in and be utilized to destroy it. That's the First Amendment. That's what it means," said Springer, the head of Tulsa-based Bondage Breakers Ministries, which aims to "expose the violations of the written law committed by the Internal Revenue Service."

Eric Hovind told WND his father sent numerous letters to the IRS, asking exactly which laws apply to a 508 © (1) (a) church ministry, but he received no response.

"Now the government would look at that, just to be honest, as probably a tax protester-type stance," he said.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



How bizarre, how bizarre.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


I think Hovind made a crucial error.  No doubt influence by the need to keep the cuntributions rolling in, he was too subtle in his insanity defence.

Wrong: Asked by the judge where he lived, Hovind replied, "I live in the church of Jesus Christ, which is located all over the world. I have no residence."

Right: Asked by the judge where he lived, Hovind replied, "I am a teapot.  Cover me with lard."
Posted by: ppb on Aug. 07 2009,12:30

The Government now owns a Creationist theme park.  Read about it < here. >  Laugh about it < here. >
Posted by: dvunkannon on Aug. 07 2009,12:52

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 06 2009,09:24)


---------------------QUOTE-------------------
Attorney Shawn Perez of Las Vegas, who worked on Hovind's Supreme Court filing, told WND the writ of certiorari, or petition, makes two arguments. One is that the structuring law does not apply, because the Hovinds never deposited or withdrew more than $10,000 on any one day. The 45 single bank transactions should be charged as one count, not as 45 separate violations of the law, the brief argues. Each transaction was charged as a criminal count, yet none of them, by themselves, constituted a violation of the law, it explains.

The other argument in the Supreme Court filing is that under the Paperwork Reduction Act of 1995, the IRS must explain on a 1040 form what it plans to do with the answers it receives and indicate whether the response is voluntary or mandatory.

The chance of the Supreme Court accepting any case is slim, but Perez said he hopes the structuring argument will get the court's attention, because the justices took a hard look at money laundering in the past year.

"His case is really tough because he didn't present a defense (at trial)," Perez said. "You don't leave much room for argument on appeal."

Perez said it's possible Hovind will find out this month if his case has been accepted. But, regardless of the outcome, Hovind's situation won't change anytime soon, because the earliest the appeal could be heard would be 2010.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



My emphasis.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Dang, now I'm reading this thread.

There is a PRA declaration for the Form 1040. It says the IRS will use the answers to help determine the tax you owe. Shawn Perez, attorney FAIL.
Posted by: dvunkannon on Aug. 07 2009,12:59

Quote (Lou FCD @ June 06 2009,09:32)
How bizarre:

 

---------------------QUOTE-------------------

snip...

Lindsey Springer, the founder of an IRS watchdog group who has advised Hovind,  argues Hovind merely insists that the federal government adhere to the Constitution and its own laws, which protect religion and religious entities.

---------------------QUOTE-------------------



How bizarre, how bizarre.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Is this Scooter's Mom? Sister? Evil Twin? Alter Ego?

get your own blow-up sex toy. she's got vibrating, lifelike privates and mones when i press a button on the remote. i made all the payments and she's all mine!!1! -dt
Posted by: Henry J on Aug. 07 2009,14:48



---------------------QUOTE-------------------
The Government now owns a Creationist theme park.  Read about it here.  Laugh about it here.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Doesn't that violate that thing in the constitution about separation of stuff? :p
Posted by: ppb on Aug. 07 2009,15:05

Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 07 2009,15:48)
Doesn't that violate that thing in the constitution about separation of stuff? :p
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Constitution doesn't say anything about the separation of dinosaurs and Jesus.
Posted by: carlsonjok on Aug. 07 2009,15:26

Quote (ppb @ Aug. 07 2009,15:05)
Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 07 2009,15:48)
Doesn't that violate that thing in the constitution about separation of stuff? :p
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Constitution doesn't say anything about the separation of dinosaurs and Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------



Posted by: sledgehammer on Aug. 07 2009,16:47

Quote (ppb @ Aug. 07 2009,13:05)
 
Quote (Henry J @ Aug. 07 2009,15:48)
Doesn't that violate that thing in the constitution about separation of stuff? :p
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


The Constitution doesn't say anything about the separation of dinosaurs and Jesus.
---------------------QUOTE-------------------


Or fools and their money.
Posted by: Peter Henderson on Sep. 21 2009,07:49

If you want a laugh on a Sunday afternoon, I found this on Youtube:

< http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1uFD-eAqX8&feature=related >

Don't know who Dr. Callahan is but it seems he's had contact with Hovind before. The poster has also disabled any comments for some strange reason, as in the Kirk and Ray video.
end


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