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  Topic: Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed., Sternberg, Gonzalez, Crocker - A film< Next Oldest | Next Newest >  
midwifetoad



Posts: 3992
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,11:33   



--------------
Any version of ID consistent with all the evidence is indistinguishable from evolution.

  
JAM



Posts: 517
Joined: July 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,11:41   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 03 2008,10:33)
But he recognizes that both ID and Creation Science (which he sees as two distinct movements, something few people on the other side of this debate have been able to do) face a common enemy in academic suppression.

Kevin,
I'm confused about your claim of academic suppression. How about answering the following questions:

1) Were any of those whom you featured in "Expelled" actually fired, and does your movie make this fact clear to your audience?

2) Why shouldn't groups of people who claim to be scientists, but are afraid to test their own hypotheses, be ridiculed mercilessly?

3) The journal started by the ID movement hasn't published an issue in over two years. When it was published, it contained no tests of ID hypotheses anyway. How is the scientific mainstream suppressing a journal controlled by ID proponents?

4) Do you really think that science is like literary criticism?

5) Have you ever bothered to examine cases of scientists who were ridiculed but ended up with Nobel Prizes because they tested their own hypotheses instead of writing books and making movies?

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,11:48   

Quote

I don't think the age of the earth is a matter of belief. I think it's a matter of examining the evidence and then coming to a conclusion based on those facts. And to the best of my knowledge, the evidence points to the earth being approximately four billion years old. So I'm going with that until people who know more about such things begin to suspect otherwise. I realize people like Ken Hamm dispute such a position, but to be honest, I haven't really taken a good look at the evidence he presents in support of his argument. Probably because I've just assumed that belief in a young earth is untenable in light of all we know about geology, cosmology, etc. But perhaps that merely reveals a blind spot in my own thinking. I've concluded that they're wrong before I've really listened to their arguments or their evidence.


It's interesting -- this is just the kind of "6,000, 4.5 billion, I'm keeping an open mind" stuff that FTK peddles. The only difference is that this is how FTK would sound if she'd been to college and had a larger vocabulary.

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,11:58   

The creationists keep harping about "follow the evidence" and "let's examine all the possibilities."

We did that already.

The only argument that any creationist has is that "the Bible said it different, " and "science is too hard and I don't have time to study."  Mr. Miller had time to make a propaganda film, but not the time to actually learn anything about the topic of his "work."

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,12:12   

Here are some quotes from modern Christian high school biology †textbooks:

Quote
(1) "'Whatever the Bible says is so; whatever man says may or may not be so,' is the only [position] a Christian can take. . . ."

(2) "If [scientific] conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong, no matter how many scientific facts may appear to back them."

(3) "Christians must disregard [scientific hypotheses or theories] that contradict the Bible." (Phillips Decl. Ex. B, at xi.)


source (see page 40-41)

I think Kevin is saying he does not want these examples of open science and evidence stifled by the atheist science community. †Who can blame him? †Those quotes prove the Christian science community is clearly onto some earth shattering, cutting edge evidence and it's no wonder the atheists are scared! †This proves darwinism is wrong!

Oh and Kevin I have a question for you.  I belive 7 other people were denied tenure over the last few years at Ohio where GG is currently employed.  How many of those did you interview for Exploded? How many were the result of religious discimination.  I mean as a writer for a documentary surely you interviewed every single one of them to determine if a pattern of abuse was evident.  Of course you did.  So tell us what you found.  Thanks!

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
raguel



Posts: 107
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,12:44   

Quote (Dr.GH @ April 03 2008,11:58)
The creationists keep harping about "follow the evidence" and "let's examine all the possibilities."

We did that already.

The only argument that any creationist has is that "the Bible said it different, " and "science is too hard and I don't have time to study."  Mr. Miller had time to make a propaganda film, but not the time to actually learn anything about the topic of his "work."

Ah, but scientists were only looking at the empirical/material evidence. They didn't bother to consider the other types of evidence. What other types of evidence are there besides the observable kind? You'd know the answer if you weren't so dogmatic about naturalism.  :p

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,13:24   

Here is the evidence:



We know its true, because it tells us it is. Just like every other "holy book".

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,13:40   

Oh say, Kevin, is this the kind of openness you're espousing? †Here's a post I wrote at Talkorigins:

† †  
Quote
[title added to AtBC version]Stein obliquely admits his prejudice to legislators

What a shock, Stein didn't even think of addressing evolution with an
open mind:

† † †  
Quote
"I had always been extremely dubious about Darwinism, because
Darwinism is linked to Social Darwinism," said Stein, who also has
been a game show host, law professor and Wall Street pundit since
being a speech writer for President Richard Nixon. "This is explicitly
one of the problems of the Holocaust, which killed 6 million of my
fellow Jews."



Source, an article about Stein lobbying (and showing Expelled--sans discussion by the other side, if you can believe that Kevin's side would do such a thing) in Jefferson City

And he's asking others to be open-minded? †Let's see, do Jews in
general, and Jews in Israel in particular, have the same mental hang-
ups about science that Stein does?


So he came to the "debate" with a highly prejudiced and perhaps
unbalanced mind, and he's the man pushing for openness and freedom.
He is a candidate for greatest hypocrite on the planet.


I know that this is a repetition of statements Ben has made before,
but apparently he is so unaware of himself and his blatant bigotry,
that even as he lobbies (see article) ostensibly for openness and
freedom, he simply reveals what a prejudiced asshole he in fact is.


Glen Davidson


Short follow-up post:

I'm not sure just how oblique this admission is, in fact, but of
course he doesn't come right out and say that he came to the issue
with a highly biased mind.

Glen Davidson


Yeah, uh, how can the "Darwinists" be so prejudiced, when the IDists' paid spokesperson is such an open-minded fellow?  [Edited because I wrote something dumb]

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,15:34   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 03 2008,09:33)
re: post 1582

Sorry Kristene, your question kind of got lost in the shuffle. It's pretty easy to answer though, especially if you read the article that accompanied the photo. Have you ever heard the saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" That's what you're seeing in that picture of Ben Stein and Ken Ham. As Ken makes pretty clear in his review of the film, his group has some serious reservations about Intelligent Design. But he recognizes that both ID and Creation Science (which he sees as two distinct movements, something few people on the other side of this debate have been able to do) face a common enemy in academic suppression. So he has decided to endorse Expelled on that basis.

But what does Ben think of Ken? That's my question.

What does he think of Ken and Ken's dolls? Did he deposit a coin in the dinosaur ride that's just like one of those giddayup horsies that used to sit outside of grocery stores? What does he think of a museum dedicated to showing dinosaurs wearing English saddles (not meant to be ridden)?
Quote
Outside, several of them stop to be interviewed by a video crew. They have come from Indiana, one woman says, two toddlers toddling at her feet, because they have been home-schooling their children and they have given them this adventure as a kind of field trip. The whole group then bustles into the lobby of the building, where they are greeted by the long neck of a huge, herbivorous dinosaur. The kids run past that and around a corner, where stands another, smaller dinosaur.

Which is wearing a saddle.

It is an English saddle, hornless and battered. Apparently, this was a dinosaur used for dressage competitions and stakes races. Any working dinosaur accustomed to the rigors of ranch work and herding other dinosaurs along the dusty trail almost certainly would wear a sturdy western saddle.

This is very much a show dinosaur.

The dinosaurs are the first things you see when you enter the Creation Museum, which is very much a work in progress and the dream child of an Australian named Ken Ham. Ham is the founder of Answers in Genesis, an organization of which the museum one day will be the headquarters. The people here today are on a special tour. They have paid $149 to become "charter members" of the museum.

from Esquire

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,15:35   

Kevin quickly backpeddled from his original position on 6Kers.

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,15:44   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 03 2008,15:35)
Kevin quickly backpeddled from his original position on 6Kers.

What was his original position?

--------------
"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,15:46   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 03 2008,15:44)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 03 2008,15:35)
Kevin quickly backpeddled from his original position on 6Kers.

What was his original position?

http://www.antievolution.org/cgi-bin....y102252

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,15:54   

Kevin, I just saw your completely new and totally original animation online (a nice radical Christian group uploaded it).

1.  Kevin, who made your animation?

  
hooligans



Posts: 114
Joined: Jan. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,16:09   

I second the comment of Mr. Christopher:
Quote
(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,11:19 † †

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What evidence is not being allowed to be pursued, Kevin? †

Tell us about the evidence.

Yes Kevin. Please tell us about the evidence that is being supressed. I assume that because you just finished making a movie about people who have had their ideas supressed in academic circles, you can give us a list of the ideas that caused this supression. Please be detailed enough so that we can examine the ideas themselves.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,16:12   

Brace for "Darwinism can't explain....'

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Henry J



Posts: 4787
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,16:15   

Quote
Brace for "Darwinism can't explain....'


Surely not! :p

  
JohnW



Posts: 2834
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,16:26   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 03 2008,14:12)
Brace for "Darwinism can't explain....'

Heavily seasoned with personal incredulity, with a steaming mound of straw man on the side.

--------------
Math is just a language of reality. Its a waste of time to know it. - Robert Byers

There isn't any probability that the letter d is in the word "mathematics"...  The correct answer would be "not even 0" - JoeG

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,17:34   

Kevin reminds me a lot of FTK. Even worse in a way as you would assume that for any movie you would do hundreds of hours of research (at least to find out what criticisms that your opponents are going to throw at you).

Kevin is yet to give any specifics details on who is being repressed what are the actual doubts about evolution and answered any of the rebuttals about the Darwin->Hitler rubbish.

We even have a quote from Kevin's boss Mathis about Sternberg being sacked. How many seconds research does it take to know this is rubbish.

I think Kevin represents the Goebbels school of writing, no lie is too outlandish as long as it pushes your POV. The only question is how much is Morton's demon and how much is actual lying.

This is why Expelled will not get much traction. The people who have already drunk the koolaid will like but that vast rump of Americans who would be sympathetic will get turned off by the lies.

This is why I think that the creationist nonsense will only grow to a certain level. As soon as they get too public, sensible (relatively) people will take notice and kick it back down to where it belongs.

Judge Jones did a good job in Dover, but I think that what killed ID was the daily reporting of the foolish statements of the school board and Behe that got enough people to notice and reject it.

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,17:59   

Quote (ERV @ April 03 2008,15:54)
Kevin, I just saw your completely new and totally original animation online (a nice radical Christian group uploaded it).

1. †Kevin, who made your animation?

Linky?

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Jim_Wynne



Posts: 1199
Joined: June 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,18:21   

I just received this from our friends at Expelled:

Quote
Jim,

I am emailing to let you know that we have cancelled the Milwaukee screening of Expelled on April 8th.  The Producers of the film are very busy preparing for the film's release in theaters April 18th and due to unavoidable changes in their schedules, they are unable to make it out to Milwaukee for this screening.  I've included links below to information on theaters showing the film in your area and great FREE resources.

Please reply back to let me know you got this notification.

Thanks,
Jessica


Theater Locator: http://getexpelled.com/grouptickets.php
Win $1000 in our Group Sales Competition:  http://getexpelled.com/groupsalesapplication.php
Download the poster and other great materials:  http://getexpelled.com/downloads.php
Order your FREE Expelled Kit:  http://getexpelled.com/ordermaterials.php


--------------
Evolution is not about laws but about randomness on happanchance.--Robert Byers, at PT

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,18:28   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ April 03 2008,17:59)
Quote (ERV @ April 03 2008,15:54)
Kevin, I just saw your completely new and totally original animation online (a nice radical Christian group uploaded it).

1.  Kevin, who made your animation?

Linky?

Will PM to people interested.

Kevin can answer the question, then he can have linky.

  
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,20:04   

ERV: Very much interested.  I've been wanting to do an exhaustive comparison for awhile now.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
ERV



Posts: 329
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,21:05   

Quote (Jim_Wynne @ April 03 2008,18:21)
I just received this from our friends at Expelled:

 
Quote
Jim,

I am emailing to let you know that we have cancelled the Milwaukee screening of Expelled on April 8th.  The Producers of the film are very busy preparing for the film's release in theaters April 18th and due to unavoidable changes in their schedules, they are unable to make it out to Milwaukee for this screening.  I've included links below to information on theaters showing the film in your area and great FREE resources.

Please reply back to let me know you got this notification.

Thanks,
Jessica


Theater Locator: http://getexpelled.com/grouptickets.php
Win $1000 in our Group Sales Competition:  http://getexpelled.com/groupsalesapplication.php
Download the poster and other great materials:  http://getexpelled.com/downloads.php
Order your FREE Expelled Kit:  http://getexpelled.com/ordermaterials.php

Theyre lying.

Do not reply.

Call the theater.

Go.

  
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,21:27   

Logan Craft, one of the producers of Expelled, was on Life Today talking to TV preacher James Robison about the big bad Darwinist establishment.  Watch it here.  Or, starting April 4 and onward, watch it here.

   
darwinoid



Posts: 12
Joined: Jan. 2003

(Permalink) Posted: April 03 2008,21:31   

Seems like we've caught them lying about cancellations - see here.

Eh, never mind, ERV beat me to it :)

Edited by darwinoid on April 03 2008,21:35

--------------
john m. lynch
http://blog.jmlynch.org/....nch.org
http://www.public.asu.edu/~jmlync....jmlynch

   
didymos



Posts: 1828
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2008,05:49   

Oh yeah, I forgot about this.  I went to the Expelled Challenge FAQ a little while back and sent the following to the email address therein asking about screenings:

 
Quote

Will there be anymore?  If so, where do I get a current list of any upcoming events?  Thanks in advance.


That was on 3/26 and I finally got a reply on 4/1.  It said:

     
Quote

Hello,

Thank you for your interest in Ben Stein's Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.  If you have signed up for the Expelled Challenge then this is how it works.

Organize a group ticketing event at your local theater and take your group to see the film.  Once your group has seen the film, collect the ticket stubs from everyone that went with your group.  We will provide and address to mail those ticket stubs along with the name of your group, the date, time, and location of when you went to see the film.  The group that responds with the most ticket stubs will be given a $10,000 grant.

As far as pre-release screenings of Expelled.  We are no longer doing open pre-release screenings at this time.  My apologies.  Thank you again for your interest and support of Expelled.  Release date is April 18th.

--
Jesse Wilson
Motive Entertainment

(There was also a personal email and phone number for Jesse at Motive, but I wasn't sure whether or not it was a good idea to post it here.)

Funny that: they still seem to assume that just because someone sent an email, said someone must therefore be a supporter of Expelled.  Or at least Jesse does.

So anyway,  I took this to mean they likely were still doing pre-release screenings, but only under much more restricted conditions.  From the link ERV posted here, looks like that is the case indeed. So, definitely a step up in the tricky department. I wonder what deviously ingenious method they use to determine who to let in this time around. I mean it wouldn't be something ridiculously ineffectual like asking if you go to church, right?

didymos  goes and reads comments on Stranger Fruit..................


Oh, it is. Sigh.

--------------
I wouldn't be bothered reading about the selfish gene because it has never been identified. -- Denyse O'Leary, professional moron
Again "how much". I don't think that's a good way to be quantitative.-- gpuccio

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2008,07:35   

Flunked, Not Expelled: Evolving Kickback Schemes?

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
BWE



Posts: 1898
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2008,07:51   

Quote (ERV @ April 03 2008,15:54)
Kevin, I just saw your completely new and totally original animation online (a nice radical Christian group uploaded it).

1.  Kevin, who made your animation?

Yes Kevin. I'm curious too. That's pretty sophisticated for a creationist. Kudos. Who was your artist?

--------------
Who said that ev'ry wish would be heard and answered
When wished on the morning star
Somebody thought of that, and someone believed it
Look what it's done so far

The Daily Wingnut

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2008,08:29   

Apparently, my old correspondent Pamela Winnick has a cameo in "Expelled" being all huffy about how journalists can't give IDC a break in print. (That doesn't seem to have affected the career of the fellow at the NY Times who wrote the gushing DI-boosting article there in 2001.)

See here for Felix Salmon's take on his experience at a screening. I have a comment on Winnick following.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 04 2008,11:40   

Hey man go to google and search on "pz myers" and you'll find this gem †

 
Quote
Sponsored Links

Creationism vs Evolution
Does Evolution have all the answers
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
www.expelledthemovie.com/blog/



There is some satisfaction clicking on the Exploded link knowing it's costing them money.

Me!

edit:

Or you might get this link

Quote
Sponsored Links

PZ Myers Interview
Come see PZ Myers in the movie
Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
www.expelledthemovie.com/blog/




editIII - do a search on "Richard Dawkins" and you'll see the same sponored links.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
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