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Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 03 2008,17:53   

Has anyone posted this lecture by Crossroads Expelled producer Logan Craft yapping about Church and State at a 2006 Centre for Cultural Renewal Renewal conferance?  

Watch it here

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,08:46   

Ben Stein writes in today's WingNutDaily: Charles Darwin:  Imperialism's pawn

Quote
Imperialism had a short but hideous history – of repression and murder.

But its day is done.

Darwinism is still very much alive, utterly dominating biology. Despite the fact that no one has ever been able to prove the creation of a single distinct species by Darwinist means, Darwinism dominates the academy and the media. Darwinism also has not one meaningful word to say on the origins of organic life, a striking lacuna in a theory supposedly explaining life.

Alas, Darwinism has had a far bloodier life span than imperialism. Darwinism, perhaps mixed with imperialism, gave us Social Darwinism, a form of racism so vicious that it countenanced the Holocaust against the Jews and mass murder of many other groups in the name of speeding along the evolutionary process.

Now, a few scientists are questioning Darwinism on many fronts. I wonder how long Darwinism's life span will be. Marxism, another theory which, in true Victorian style, sought to explain everything, is dead everywhere but on university campuses and in the minds of psychotic dictators. Maybe Darwinism will be different. Maybe it will last. But it's difficult to believe it will. Theories that presume to explain everything without much evidence rarely do. Theories that outlive their era of conception and cannot be verified rarely last unless they are faith-based. And Darwinism has been such a painful, bloody chapter in the history of ideologies, maybe we would be better off without it as a dominant force.

   
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,08:49   

And WingNutDaily publisher Joseph Farah is all giddy about the upcoming release of Expelled:  I can't wait to be 'Expelled'

Quote
It turns out some of the most hardened, doctrinaire anti-design zealots in the scientific establishment – people like Richard Dawkins, author of "The God Delusion" and, coincidentally, the de facto leader of the worldwide atheist movement – aren't really opposed to the notion of design at all. They just can't accept God as the designer.

You will hear some of the world's most celebrated evolutionists admit design is possible – just not by the hand of God.

They will attribute the possibility of design to visitors from other planets and even to crystals. The two things they cannot tolerate are consideration of God's role and any of their colleagues deviating from their own ideas about origins.

It's not so much the architects of evolution are opposed to religion. It's that they have formed their own religion – absent the God of Christianity and Judaism.

As Ben Stein explains it: "Big Science in this area of biology has lost its way. Scientists are supposed to be allowed to follow the evidence wherever it may lead, no matter what the implications are. Freedom of inquiry has been greatly compromised, and this is not only anti-American, it's anti-science. It's anti-the whole concept of learning."

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,10:05   

Back in the day if biology or science had been a topic on "Win Ben Stein's Money", he'd be broke.

What a total dumb ass.  I still have such a hard time accepting the fact that Ben Stein is a complete dumb ignoramous who toadies for the Discovery Institute.  I mean the Wingnut Daily are the guys who said consuming soy makes you gay.  If that were true most every Asian on the planet would be gay.  Maybe Ben can do a propaganda piece about "Big Soy Industry" who's purpose is to make all men gay.

For some reason I still find Ben's stupidity shocking.

Silly me...

edit:

Ben's Stanford Review interview is somewhat telling.  Here Ben demonstrates what a hypocritical ignoramous he is when he mumbles,

Quote
"When you say that “everyone knows” something, that doesn’t prove anything at all. We’ve never seen a species evolve; we have no idea how life started; we have no idea where the laws that govern the universe came from; Darwin doesn’t explain any of these. All these gigantically big issues still can only really be answered by saying, “well, some intelligent guy or gal or being had just done this; some being that always was and always will be…Part of the problem I have with both Christopher Hitchens’ and Jay Richards’ observations is that I don’t think it’s up to man to judge God. God’s not on trial, God isn’t a defendant, God’s the boss. It’s not up to us to judge him. God’s the boss!


Even juicier than his obvious god of the gaps ignorance is his hypocricy - note where on one hand Ben howls about Big Science suggesting "everyone knows something" without having to prove it.  The he goes on to suggest everyone knows god is the boss and no one should question that.  WTF?

What a tard.

Hey Ben, if you're going to push your ignorant god of the gaps theory in science class guess what?  Science relies on evidence and testing.  You're going to have to prove your god is science theory.  First prove god exists, then prove he's the boss.  

Please show your work, and no cheating Benjamin Stein.

Like it or not, if you shove god into science class then he's fair game for being judged and keep in mind, ignorance is not evidence.

--------------
Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,20:18   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Mar. 04 2008,09:05)
Back in the day if biology or science had been a topic on "Win Ben Stein's Money", he'd be broke.

What a total dumb ass.  I still have such a hard time accepting the fact that Ben Stein is a complete dumb ignoramous who toadies for the Discovery Institute.  I mean the Wingnut Daily are the guys who said consuming soy makes you gay.  If that were true most every Asian on the planet would be gay.  Maybe Ben can do a propaganda piece about "Big Soy Industry" who's purpose is to make all men gay.


Except in Korea. There are no gay people in Korea! :p

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 04 2008,21:17   

Quote (Kristine @ Mar. 04 2008,20:18)
Quote (Mr_Christopher @ Mar. 04 2008,09:05)
Back in the day if biology or science had been a topic on "Win Ben Stein's Money", he'd be broke.

What a total dumb ass.  I still have such a hard time accepting the fact that Ben Stein is a complete dumb ignoramous who toadies for the Discovery Institute.  I mean the Wingnut Daily are the guys who said consuming soy makes you gay.  If that were true most every Asian on the planet would be gay.  Maybe Ben can do a propaganda piece about "Big Soy Industry" who's purpose is to make all men gay.


Except in Korea. There are no gay people in Korea! :p

I dunno Kristine...Kim Jong II looks pretty gay to me, and Sung Myung Moon, ain't no doubt about it for sure.

I think you are on to something with your Big Soy Theory.

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Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 05 2008,09:34   

Kristine, the Korea thing just shows you how deep the BS (Big Soy) Industry conspiracy lurks. They are making us all ghay!  In fact I had sushi last night and without thinking I used low sodium soy sauce.  Now all the sudden I'm finding J-Dog's logo to be very handsome, what's up with that?

It's just a matter of time before Ben Stein champions the BS cause!  I heard a rumor they are going to promote his BS documentary at men's bath houses.  The films motto is going to be "STOP the BS Ben!"

Thank god for intellectual heavy weights like Ben Stein who are unafraid to take on a BS cause!  

Down with Big Soy!


edit:

J-Dog, do you have plans Friday night?  I thought we might grab some sushi and see Brokeback Mountain if you haven't seen it yet.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,12:04   

Speaking of the WingNutDaily publisher Joseph Farah, he gives us a glimpse into his views on science here and here.

Here are some of the juicier tidbits, and we can thank propagandists like Kevin Miller XI and Ben Stein for helping wingnuts like this come out of the woodwork.  

 
Quote
The primary reason I believe, of course, is because the Bible tells me so. That's good enough for me, because I haven't found the Bible to be wrong about anything else.

The evolutionists insist the dinosaurs lived millions and millions of years ago and became extinct long before man walked the planet.  I don't believe that for a minute. I don't believe there is a shred of scientific evidence to suggest it. I am 100 percent certain man and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. In fact, I'm not at all sure dinosaurs are even extinct!

And what about the not-so-unusual sightings of contemporary sea monsters? Some of them have actually been captured.

There are also countless contemporary sightings of what appear to be pterodactyls in Asia and Africa.

You know what I think? I think we've been sold a bill of goods about the dinosaurs. I don't believe they died off millions and millions of years ago. In fact, I'm not at all convinced they've died off completely.

Evolutionists have put the cart before the horse. They start out with a theory, then ignore all the facts that contradict the theory. Any observation that might call into question their assumptions is discounted, ridiculed and covered up. That's not science.

How could all the thousands of historical records of dragons and behemoths throughout mankind's time on earth be ignored? Let's admit it. At least some of these observations and records indicate dinosaurs were walking the earth fairly recently ? if not still walking it today.

If I'm right about that ? which I am ? then the whole evolutionary house of cards comes tumbling down.

This is the evidence about which the evolutionists dare not speak


Yes indeed, evilutionists dare not speak of all that evidence of sea serpants living amongst us, and say nothing about all that evidence of pterodactyls in Asia and Africa currently flying about the treetops, and of course NOTHING in the bible is wrong.  Nothing at all.  

If evilutionists began admitting they've been hiding all the dinosaurs all these years (in their basements no less!) their little charade would crumble faster than the Berlin wall!

And these guys wonder why they're ridiculed. Kevin wonders why he and Ben are ridiculed.  What a bunch of complete tards.

Um, Joeseph (and Ben and Kevin Miller XI), believing the bible is correct because it tells you to is not science.  Complaining that your ideas are ridiculed when you make fantastic claims (dinosaurs currently flying around Asia/Africa) without providing a shred of evidence is not science and it begs ridicule.

Seeing who enjoys this movie is so freaking hilarious to me.  Nothing but flat earther and wingnuts.  Nice job Ben!  I wonde rhow long it will be before Ben Stein starts marketing healing magnets and power crystals and subsequently starts whining because he's ridiculed for it.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,16:45   

I've mostly sworn off subjecting myself to Expelled's censorious blog, but couldn't resist trying to get one of the first posts in jeering at their triumph in fooling a carefully-picked audience of fools.  Since I don't trust them, though, I'm cross-posting to here:

Quote
Blast, let’s try that again [mistake made in first attempt]:

So, you kept competent critics (scientists, etc.) out of the preview, stacked the audience with religiously-biased poorly educated sorts, and played your Godwin’s Law-evoking, science-avoiding, and ignorant-of-scientific-methods diatribe. And wow, you were cheered by the ignorant folk whom you intend to bamboozle with your snake-oil.

You must be so proud.

You can manipulate the ignorant and the prejudiced by displaying ignorance and prejudice. It’s one of those Kodak moments.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,21:02   

Likely my last post on that particular blog topic is in response to an egregious, stupid, and ignorant concern troll who doesn't mind that IDists haven't had the decency to engage our points, yet whines when we call them the ignorant clotheads that they are:

Quote
<blockquote>Belittling your opponents, and using crude colloquialisms to insult them results in nothing. If you wish to change hearts, use the balm of charity, not the flamethrower of outrage and disgust.

Honestly, please debate courteously. Yelling down opponents, no matter how idiotic you think they are, is never the right thing to do. Listen, and respond intelligently to your opponents.</blockquote>

Dear Geoffrey, try to learn something before you go off accusing falsely as you did.  

We have answered Ben and the rest copiously and well.  They have not had, choose one or more:  the courtesy, decency, intelligence, knowledge, or the evidence, to give us a decent and intelligent response.

The fact is that the audience is as tilted, biased, and ignorant as I wrote.  You only complain because you don't like the truth.  

If you wish to actually debate something, look at my past posts, tell me how ID accounts for the fact that all vertebrate wings happened to be modified legs of their apparent ancestors, why taxonomy closely fits the predictions of (non-teleological) evolutionary theory, and why it is that the macroevolutionary patterns of prokaryotes and of eukaryotes look so different, as would be expected of a combination of clonal/conjugating evolutionary processes in the first case, and as expected of sexual processes in the second case.

I have asked that repeatedly here, and the IDists/creationists have been too rude, too ignorant, or most likely, far too fundamentally wrong, to give me a fair and honest answer to those questions.  

You, too, have failed to engage with me properly, or to fault the endlessly dishonest prattle of the IDists on these forums.  Not that I'm surprised, since I have yet to meet an IDist who will engage with the issues in an intellectually honest fashion.

And I'm already probably out of this thread (not a promise, a present intention).  The fact is that I have properly characterized the dishonesty of the blog article posted here, the evidence that supports this fact has been presented copiously by myself and others on these forums, and the mere fact that you prefer not to engage the substantive posts does not give you warrant to complain when I simply repeat the judgment that has been rendered in so minute detail in former posts.  

I really lack the patience to deal with someone who won't engage with the many issues I and others have brought up, but only faults us for dealing with IDists/creationists as they have exhibited themselves to be, at least on this blog.

Glen D


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,21:23   

Every time he had a chance to back up his lies and false accusations, brave Sir Kevin courageously ran away.  The moment that some mindless concern troll (perhaps Kevin) decided to show how partial and stupid he was, Kevin came back to scold (on TalkOrigins):

 
Quote



Here's a good word for good old Glen D. taken from today's Expelled
blog. Just in case you missed it there, Glen!

Dear Glen Davidson,


Belittling your opponents, and using crude colloquialisms to insult
them results in nothing. If you wish to change hearts, use the balm of
charity, not the flamethrower of outrage and disgust.


Honestly, please debate courteously. Yelling down opponents, no matter
how idiotic you think they are, is never the right thing to do.
Listen, and respond intelligently to your opponents.


And no, just in case anyone has the idea in mind, mentioning that
idiotic, childish, annoying, and downright stupid "spaghetti monster"
is not an intelligent response. It doesn't do anything. It's like a
kid sticking his tongue out and saying, "you're stupid!" There are
more charitable and effective ways to communicate a point.


Don't be mean, don't be nasty. Okay? Now, play nice.


It's official, he's incapable of doing anything but faulting others while he turns a blind eye to the colossal dishonesty of the movie he helped to write, and his failure to engage the issues.

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,22:14   

I ran across a review of  Expelled that tells us a bit more about it.  Here's what I posted at Pharyngula:

Quote
This seems something like an open thread, and I think I have something good for a bit of bar talk.  It has some of the specifics of the Expelled film, and the ignorant blather of an engineer who thinks it's a "revealing" movie:

Quote
I attended a screening of EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED yesterday in Dallas.  We got struck in traffic, and arrived about twenty minutes into the picture.  It was still wonderful.  My son Joshua, a business major at Baylor, and Charley, my long time retired air force father in law, came too.  On about three hours each of sleep the previous night, we watched the movie with unwavering interest.  Wow. I want everybody to see this important film.  I now know where I will do my Christmas shopping.
 
 John Sullivan, one of the movie’s producers, said EXPELLED will open on about a thousand screens in February.  This is about the same number of screens for Michael Moore’s last documentary.There is sooooo much great stuff in this movie.  Here are some bullets.
 
 Like many great movies do, EXPELLED takes you on a roller coaster from belly laughs about some of the ridiculousness of Scientism, to anger at the manner Scientism treats good people, to alarm that atheism is being forced down our throats by the Academy, to hope that this problem can be corrected, and back to a belly laugh at one of Ben Stein’s quips.
 
 The identity of Scientism as atheism dressed in a cheap tuxedo (my words) came across strongly in the movie – especially in the interviews with atheists Richard Dawkins,  PZ Meyers, and Michael Ruse.  These men may have to change their occupation descriptions in 2008 to “Punch line for EXPELLED.”  
 
 There are great animations of the inside workings of a cell.  I’m not a biologist, but seeing this as an engineer invariably causes my jaw to drop.
 
 The contribution of  Darwinism to Nazi atrocities was addressed.  This could have been over the top – but came off well.   Parallel quotes from Hitler and Darwin were appropriately tempered by Berlinski saying something like “Of course Darwinism does not always lead to Nazism.  It is, though, a necessary albeit not sufficient component.”  There was a chilling visit to a Nazi “hospital” where the “unfit” were gassed by Hitler’s cult.  The contribution of the euthanasia movement to the founding of  Planned Parenthood was identified.
 
 Old B&W movie clips were sprinkled throughout the film.  One showed a 1950’s middle school bully (Big Science) sitting on the stomach of a victim (ID proponent) pinning his arms back.  The bully boy keeps saying “OK.  Now you’re on our side.  Say you’re on our side!”  It was hilarious.  
 
 There are also a bunch of short custom animated cartoons.  One is an animation of Richard Dawkins frustrated at the low probabilities emanating from a bank of slot machines.  The audience roared.
 
 There is plenty for the cerebral from both the scientific and political perspective.   Dr. Richard von Sternberg, Dr. Doug Axe, Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, Dr. William Dembski, Dr. Jonathan Wells, Dr. Walter Bradley, Dr. Alister McGrath, Dr. Stephen Myer, Dr. Carolyn Crocker, Dr. David Berlinski, Dr. John Polkinghorn and yours truly were on screen.  (I KNOW I’m missing some. Sorry.)   Doug Axe and Stephen Myer did a lot of the heavy lifting concerning biology.
 
 Here’s a teaser.  How do Michael Ruse and Richard Dawkins explain the origin of life?  Be prepared to grin.  I am reminded of Richard Feynman’s explanation of all that is bogus:  The closer you look, the more it goes away.  
 
 The Berlin wall is used as a metaphor for the divide between ID and the Academy.  On one side of the wall are researchers who are required to conform to an ideology in order to get funding and tenure.   Near the end of the movie, there is a back and forth between Reagan’s “tear down this wall” speech and Ben Stein giving an speech on academic freedom.  (a part of Ben Stein’s speech is in the EXPELLED Teaser Trailer.)  I admit getting a wonderful shiver.
 
 This is the ice berg tip.  There is so much wonderful stuff in the movie.  Co-Producer Mark Mathis said there are a lot of fantastic scenes that could not be included in the movie.  When the EXPELLED DVD is released, there will be a second DVD with these extras. This takes care of my Christmas shopping for next year.

 
The wisdom of an engineer brought to bear on biology

There you are, Berlinski saying what he doesn't know, the old bugabear of atheism, a bunch of cheesy animations to get around the fact that they can't make a case out of their sad little morons.

Glen D


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 06 2008,22:34   

Sorry for the repetition, but after posting the last comments I decided to go ahead and try to post at Expelled, since the idea of anyone on the side of that bit of dishonest maligning of what they don't know telling somebody else to "play nice" is the height of hypocrisy:

Quote
Oh yeah, intentions change, things are found, and I decided I'd point out how <em>Expelled</em> fits Geoffrey's prejudicial "concerns" to a T, you know, "Belittling your opponents, and using crude colloquialisms to insult them results in nothing."

Here, it's should be interesting both to those who like the belittling that <em>Expelled</em> engages in (but doesn't trouble the hypocritical Geoffrey), and those who do not:

Quote
I attended a screening of EXPELLED: NO INTELLIGENCE ALLOWED yesterday in Dallas. We got struck in traffic, and arrived about twenty minutes into the picture. It was still wonderful. My son Joshua, a business major at Baylor, and Charley, my long time retired air force father in law, came too. On about three hours each of sleep the previous night, we watched the movie with unwavering interest. Wow. I want everybody to see this important film. I now know where I will do my Christmas shopping. John Sullivan, one of the movie's producers, said EXPELLED will open on about a thousand screens in February. This is about the same number of screens for Michael Moore's last documentary.There is sooooo much great stuff in this movie. Here are some bullets.

Like many great movies do, EXPELLED takes you on a roller coaster from belly laughs about some of the ridiculousness of Scientism, to anger at the manner Scientism treats good people, to alarm that atheism is being forced down our throats by the Academy, to hope that this problem can be corrected, and back to a belly laugh at one of Ben Stein's quips.

The identity of Scientism as atheism dressed in a cheap tuxedo (my words) came across strongly in the movie - especially in the interviews with atheists Richard Dawkins, PZ Meyers, and Michael Ruse. These men may have to change their occupation descriptions in 2008 to "Punch line for EXPELLED."

There are great animations of the inside workings of a cell. I'm not a biologist, but seeing this as an engineer invariably causes my jaw to drop.

The contribution of Darwinism to Nazi atrocities was addressed. This could have been over the top - but came off well. Parallel quotes from Hitler and Darwin were appropriately tempered by Berlinski saying something like "Of course Darwinism does not always lead to Nazism. It is, though, a necessary albeit not sufficient component." There was a chilling visit to a Nazi "hospital" where the "unfit" were gassed by Hitler's cult. The contribution of the euthanasia movement to the founding of Planned Parenthood was identified.

Old B&W movie clips were sprinkled throughout the film. One showed a 1950's middle school bully (Big Science) sitting on the stomach of a victim (ID proponent) pinning his arms back. The bully boy keeps saying "OK. Now you're on our side. Say you're on our side!" It was hilarious.

There are also a bunch of short custom animated cartoons. One is an animation of Richard Dawkins frustrated at the low probabilities emanating from a bank of slot machines. The audience roared.

There is plenty for the cerebral from both the scientific and political perspective. Dr. Richard von Sternberg, Dr. Doug Axe, Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez, Dr. William Dembski, Dr. Jonathan Wells, Dr. Walter Bradley, Dr. Alister McGrath, Dr. Stephen Myer, Dr. Carolyn Crocker, Dr. David Berlinski, Dr. John Polkinghorn and yours truly were on screen. (I KNOW I'm missing some. Sorry.) Doug Axe and Stephen Myer did a lot of the heavy lifting concerning biology.

Here's a teaser. How do Michael Ruse and Richard Dawkins explain the origin of life? Be prepared to grin. I am reminded of Richard Feynman's explanation of all that is bogus: The closer you look, the more it goes away.

The Berlin wall is used as a metaphor for the divide between ID and the Academy. On one side of the wall are researchers who are required to conform to an ideology in order to get funding and tenure. Near the end of the movie, there is a back and forth between Reagan's "tear down this wall" speech and Ben Stein giving an speech on academic freedom. (a part of Ben Stein's speech is in the EXPELLED Teaser Trailer.) I admit getting a wonderful shiver.

This is the ice berg tip. There is so much wonderful stuff in the movie. Co-Producer Mark Mathis said there are a lot of fantastic scenes that could not be included in the movie. When the EXPELLED DVD is released, there will be a second DVD with these extras. This takes care of my Christmas shopping for next year.

<a href="http://www.interstructure.ca/pipermail/truth/2007-December/000296.html">An account how "Expelled" attempts to make fun of scientists and of science</a>


Well, there you are, Kevin Miller, Ben Stein, and the rest spend a great deal of time simply trying to belittle and make fun of scientists and what they have done.  IDists, on the other hand, are empty-handed on the science front.  

Still, Kevin Miller tried to shame me with Geoffrey's concern troll post on the TalkOrigins forum, after he has participated in a film which is little more than a nasty attempt to belittle science.  

The hypocrisy is astonishing, but not unusual for ID.

And yes, I expect that I'll most likely be out of here, since I have yet to have an intellectually honest engagement with an IDist.  But this was just too much to pass up, imagine Kevin Miller and Geoffrey telling others to "play nice," when <em>Expelled</em> does quite the opposite, and did so well before we noted what a mean little bunch of dishonesty it turns out to be.

Glen D


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,10:16   

You're in the heart of the beast, Glen.

Ben Stein says give Exxon a hug!
Quote
Exxon Mobil, in fact, is owned mostly by ordinary Americans. Mutual funds, index funds and pension funds (including union pension funds) own about 52 percent of Exxon Mobil’s shares. Individual shareholders, about two million or so, own almost all the rest. The pooh-bahs who run Exxon own less than 1 percent of the company.

When Exxon Mobil earns almost $12 billion in a quarter, or $41 billion in a year, as it did in 2007, that money does not go into the coffers of a few billionaire executives quaffing Champagne in Texas. It goes into the pension and retirement accounts of ordinary citizens. When Exxon pays a dividend, that money goes to pay for the mortgages and oxygen tanks and in-home care of lots of elderly Americans.

So, Mr. Obama, which union pension plans — and which blue-collar workers who benefit from them — will be among the first you would like to deprive of the income that flows from Exxon’s rich dividends?

When Mr. Obama or his Democratic rival, my fellow Yale Law School graduate Hillary Rodham Clinton, go after the oil companies and want to take away their profits, they are basically seeking to lower the income of the ordinary American. Why do that? It’s just cutting off one end of a blanket and sewing it to the other.

Notice how he always gets “and by the way, I went to Yale” in there?

At this point, his "opinions" are buckshot - still aimed, but flailing. Stein is not so much expressing opinions as shoring up his various justifications for a NY Times column and other innoculations against obscurity. That’s the real Brownshirt stomping across his American dream – obscurity. He, like Ann Coulter, are trying desperately to be known for being known. That’s what I’ve concluded about Ben Stein thus far.

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’ll go annoint my arms in petroleum to give that hug. ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,13:01   

That reminds me, Kristine, that I was flipping through news channels last night and on Glenn Beck (change your first name from Glenn, buffoon) was Ben Stein.  So I thought I'd watch a bit, and yes, I heard that we're all just Exxon, and we ought to love it.

The rationale was more interesting, I thought.  A lot of his point (which I've heard previously) was that oil companies are not conspirators jacking up the price of oil.  I do actually agree with that (OPEC took over from the Texas rail commission, or something like that), but it struck me as odd that someone who thinks there's an overwhelming and comprehensive conspiracy to prevent any questioning of "Darwinism" disagrees with those who think oil companies are conspiring against us (which they have at times, occasionally being caught at it).

One other "idea" from Ben's lips--capitalism has made us the richest and most free nation on earth.  Um, what did you say Ben?  Supposedly the Marxists of academia prevent anyone from asking the most fundamental questions of life (as Ben so ignorantly construes a mere scientific theory), and yet we're the most free nation on earth?  Did Hitler win, that other nations are even less free than the one in which, "Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator"?

The guy makes no sense in his own mind, holding incompatible beliefs on the same subjects.  How could he possibly make sense in his blogs, in Expelled, in his columns, or anywhere else?

He didn't talk about Expelled while I was watching, only Glenn Beck mentioned it in passing.  And "Expelled:  No Intelligence Allowed" was displayed under the identifier "Ben Stein".

An intelligent interviewer would have pointed out what an incoherent mess Stein's claims are.  Unfortunately, the interviewer was Beck, one of the least competent talking heads on television.

Glen D

--------------
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Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



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Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,16:39   

I have seen April 11 as the debut date for Expelled previously, but it seemed not to be the prevailing wisdom, and no certain authority seemed known.  A recent source makes April 11, rather than April 18, seem more likely:

 
Quote
April 11

"Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" (PG) -- Comedian/pundit Ben Stein hosts this pot-stirring documentary that questions science and evolutionary theory.

"Prom Night" (PG-13) -- Hello, "Carrie"? We need to borrow some of your pig's blood for this high-school horror flick. But not too much -- this is PG-13, after all.

"College" ® -- Hello, "Animal House"? We need to borrow some of your raunch for this comedy about high-school kids visiting a college campus. We need all the help we can get -- Drake Bell is the only recognizable person in the production.

"Street Kings" ® -- Gritty drama stars Keanu Reeves as a cop facing all sorts of tangled conspiracies after being accused of killing a co-worker. Also stars Forest Whitaker and Chris Evans.


Grand Rapids Press movie release schedule

I'm sure some people are planning to see it as soon as possible (I might wait until TBN runs it), so be advised that it may very well be a week earlier than it has been expected.

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
rpenner



Posts: 10
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,16:54   

Maybe it is just "premiering" in Grand Rapids, with official opening in the rest of the country the next week. They clearly have spared no expense: I had no idea that forcing academics to compete in a meritocracy required documentary footage of Nazi Germany.

Anyway, more Expelled Blog fun is coming up on March 8 from "Guest Lecturer" -- no idea who it is -- their site seems sticky and broken right now.

  
rpenner



Posts: 10
Joined: Feb. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,16:56   

Sorry - it looks like it's dated March 6, not 8. 23 comments filed but I can't read the post "Ben Stein Smart Bombs Darwinian Bunker" yet.

  
Assassinator



Posts: 479
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 07 2008,17:25   

It's actually pretty funny to see how people follow a comedian/actor on a subject like this. I still wonder how those minds work, makes me want to study psychology.

  
J-Dog



Posts: 4402
Joined: Dec. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2008,14:32   

Thanks to the link catch from John Lynch, we can all look forward to this new site dedicated to exposing the lies of expelled, the movie:

http://expelledexposed.com/

--------------
Come on Tough Guy, do the little dance of ID impotence you do so well. - Louis to Joe G 2/10

Gullibility is not a virtue - Quidam on Dembski's belief in the Bible Code Faith Healers & ID 7/08

UD is an Unnatural Douchemagnet. - richardthughes 7/11

  
bystander



Posts: 301
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 08 2008,16:29   

All those with websites and blogs will have to make sure they link to it so it goes up the google charts.

  
Jason Spaceman



Posts: 163
Joined: Nov. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,08:49   

Yet another WingNutDaily columnist reviews Expelled:

Quote
Atheists are enraged. The politically correct academic nomenclature is upset. A reporter in Florida even posed as a minister to sneak into a church screening to stop actor, pundit and financial guru Ben Stein's new movie about the totalitarian attempts by Darwinian scientists to suppress dissent, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed."

The totalitarian left should be upset because "Expelled" is a wry, funny, well-crafted documentary. The juxtaposition of popular music, dramatic vignettes, documentary footage and Ben Stein's quest for truth is often laugh-out-loud funny. At the same time, it is heart-rending, convincing and transformational. Like any documentary, of course, there are a few moments when the tension relaxes, but most of the movie, especially the last third, is captivating because Ben Stein takes on atheists and Darwinian evolutionists like Richard Dawkins and exposes the fact that they are logically challenged.

Ben Stein starts out talking about the fact that the United States was built on freedom. He quotes the Founding Fathers and juxtaposes the freedom of the United States with the Communist Berlin Wall in Germany. Meanwhile, Pink Floyd is singing about the "crack" in the wall.

Carefully, Stein makes the case that the academic community has become as oppressive of freedom as that same community oppressed freedom in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. He interviews professor Richard Sternberg, who lost his long-term job at the Smithsonian Institute because he dared to publish a peer-reviewed article with two or three references to intelligent design. The article did not endorse intelligent design, but the very mention of intelligent design brings severe repression from the pseudo-scientific academic community. He then talks to Dr. Caroline Crocker, who lost her professorship at George Mason for having one reference to ID.

One by one, Stein introduces us to prestigious scientists at major universities who were expelled because they dared to mention intelligent design and open up the academic discussion to non-Darwinian viewpoints. He moves from there to questioning the institutions and the administrators who expelled these academics. The administrators squirm under his interrogation but eventually admit that the academic community has no room for freedom and honest intellectual inquiry.

   
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,09:40   

Atheists are enraged.

How quick they are to conflate evolution with Atheism, agnosticism, immorality, dogma, faith, Hitler, Stalin...

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,09:43   

Quote (Richardthughes @ Mar. 10 2008,08:40)
Atheists are enraged.

How quick they are to conflate evolution with Atheism, agnosticism, immorality, dogma, faith, Hitler, Stalin...

I hereby suggest that we all stay on message and burst into hysterical laughter whenever anyone mentions Expelled. :) *expel*

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Glen Davidson



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(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,10:30   

There's a bit more regarding the Roger Moore invite/disinvite/accusation story, plus some transparent lies ("not polished enough") for why critics are carefully kept from seeing their dishonest production.  NYT:

Quote
The film, which takes a position on intelligent design shared by President Bush, has also been shown at California Baptist University and the Dallas Theological Seminary. Glowing reviews have popped up on AnswersInGenesis.org, whose co-chief executive, Ken Ham, founded the Creation Museum, and in The American Spectator, whose senior editor, Tom Bethell, said that the movie evoked “tears of joy.”

Mr. Lauer said the marketing strategy was “about finding and serving people with deep-seated motivations” and then hoping those people would talk up the movie to their friends. The general media will be invited to screenings in early April, he said.

Logan Craft, executive producer of “Expelled” and chief of Premise Media, said he thought Mr. Moore had been wrong to attend the screening after being disinvited, but both he and Mr. Lauer denied any involvement in an online “media alert” that purported to be from a backer of the film. The alert accused Mr. Moore of posing as a minister to gain admission, calling his actions a “security breach.” Mr. Moore said he never represented himself as other than a reporter.

After Mr. Moore’s review, Mr. Stein commented, “Oh well. This will probably happen a lot more times.”

New York Times


Moore's take:

Quote
My position on this is that I am not going to let Lauer and company sneak another movie out with lots of like-minded preachers and lay-people "reviewing" it before I do, aka The Passion of the Christ. A whole lot of conservative Christians endorsed that movie prior to its release and apparently didn't recognize its anti-Semitism. They praised Mel Gibson to the high heavens (sorry) until he was outed as the raving anti-Semite that he actually is. Real critics, even non-Jews (like myself) spotted the film's hateful caricatures of Jews right off.

On another note, it is odd that, by strange coincidence, much of the anti-Golden Compass mass-emailing that I wrote about back last fall, some of it very nasty, with return-email addresses from Nashville churches, comes from the same town as Lauer's company. Is Motive behind these nasty astro-turf "grass-roots" chain letters? If so, who paid them? Bill Donohue and the Catholic League? Just wondering.

Roger Moore


Yeah, it just wasn't polished enough.  How the hell did all that stuff about Nazis and the Berlin wall get in there?  They should be given enough time to clear out what those vile hackers did, putting in all that nasty defamation that no Christian would stoop to commit, before the critics see it.

Or, uh, were the problems Moore addressed possibly deliberate?

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,10:53   

On Mar 10, 6:38 am, jspace...@linuxquestions.net wrote:
> From the article:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Posted: March 10, 2008
> 1:00 am Eastern
>
> © 2008
>
> Atheists are enraged. The politically correct academic nomenclature is
> upset. A reporter in Florida even posed as a minister to sneak into a
> church screening to stop actor, pundit and financial guru Ben Stein's
> new movie about the totalitarian attempts by Darwinian scientists to
> suppress dissent, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed."
>
> The totalitarian left should be upset because "Expelled" is a wry,
> funny, well-crafted documentary. The juxtaposition of popular music,
> dramatic vignettes, documentary footage and Ben Stein's quest for
> truth is often laugh-out-loud funny. At the same time, it is heart-
> rending, convincing and transformational. Like any documentary, of
> course, there are a few moments when the tension relaxes, but most of
> the movie, especially the last third, is captivating because Ben Stein
> takes on atheists and Darwinian evolutionists like Richard Dawkins and
> exposes the fact that they are logically challenged.
>
> Ben Stein starts out talking about the fact that the United States was
> built on freedom. He quotes the Founding Fathers and juxtaposes the
> freedom of the United States with the Communist Berlin Wall in
> Germany. Meanwhile, Pink Floyd is singing about the "crack" in the
> wall.
>
> Carefully, Stein makes the case that the academic community has become
> as oppressive of freedom as that same community oppressed freedom in
> Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. He interviews professor Richard
> Sternberg, who lost his long-term job at the Smithsonian Institute
> because he dared to publish a peer-reviewed article with two or three
> references to intelligent design. The article did not endorse
> intelligent design, but the very mention of intelligent design brings
> severe repression from the pseudo-scientific academic community. He
> then talks to Dr. Caroline Crocker, who lost her professorship at
> George Mason for having one reference to ID.
>
> One by one, Stein introduces us to prestigious scientists at major
> universities who were expelled because they dared to mention
> intelligent design and open up the academic discussion to non-
> Darwinian viewpoints. He moves from there to questioning the
> institutions and the administrators who expelled these academics. The
> administrators squirm under his interrogation but eventually admit
> that the academic community has no room for freedom and honest
> intellectual inquiry.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------
>
> Read it athttp://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58473
>
> J. Spaceman

"Even so, however, this movie proves the truth of what the Psalmist says in the Bible, "Only a fool says in his heart there is no God" (Psalm 14:1)."

So, let's see, ID is kept out of the science journals because "Big Science" (and anyone who can think) considers it to be religion.  The point of these liars is that, well, ID is religion and irreligion is simply wrong and the viewpoint of a fool.

Damn we're evil.  We said that ID was religion when the IDists were lying and saying that it wasn't, and that religion shouldn't be taught as science.  Now they're pointing out that ID is religion and that we prevented it from being taught as science, and, of course, we're evil for being correct about what ID was and because we agreed with the IDists' claims that religion shouldn't be taught as science.

There's one consistancy running through the IDiots' jumble of inconsistent claims:  We're wrong because we want science to be taught as science, not religion being taught as science.

Glen D

--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,11:09   

Quote (Glen Davidson @ Mar. 10 2008,09:30)
Yeah, it just wasn't polished enough.  

There's another meaning to such unending "polishing" of one's product, if you get me. :p Poor Ben. And in front of all those pretty girls, too.
Quote
Ben Stein is a publicity hound with a taste for girls younger than George Soros's. His intellect is lighter than yogurt and just as uninformative.
:D

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Glen Davidson



Posts: 1045
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,16:43   

This is OT, but as it comes from the Expelled thread, I'll still archive it here:

Quote
<blockquote>Hey Glen Davidson, I read your book. IT SUCKS!</blockquote>

I doubt that you did read it, buffoon.

Anyway, it's not for the stupid.  And apparently you are far too stupid to do anything but write "IT SUCKS."  I have yet to receive a single competent criticism of my book, though dumb hatred such as yours is something I've encountered previously.

You see, it is actually true that science could be a lot more open than it is at present.  That is not a problem with respect to evolution, which is a very well established theory whose primary detractors are religious bigots who have no alternative science at all.

But stupidity will do what it must, hate the intelligence it lacks.  And so it goes with stupid little Ralphie.

Glen D


--------------
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p....p

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of coincidence---ID philosophy

   
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 10 2008,17:21   

A "George Lange" popped up in comments on PT, my blog, and Jim Lippard's blog claiming that everything on "Expelled Exposed" was wrong. I went through the current set of links at "Expelled Exposed" and showed how the specifics of what was being said was verifiable stuff. Lange hasn't shown up again at my blog.

There's obviously some touchiness when it comes to criticism over on the antievolution side.

--------------
"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: Mar. 11 2008,10:32   

All conspiracies, all the time.
Quote
The New York Times is working on it's THIRD negative story covering this independent film.
Doesn't that seem even a little bit ODD to anyone?
What is going ON???
Anyone? Anyone?
geo
Posted by: george lange | March 10, 2008 at 02:58 PM

Somebody page Flaubert. We have someone who needs a couch on which to faint. :)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
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