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Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:09   

FTK + Ned Flanders + 2 years film school = Kevin Miller


I CAN HAZ MATHS?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
BopDiddy



Posts: 71
Joined: Nov. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:11   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:10)
Here's my response, Arden: I was involved in writing the film, not marketing it. The decisions about who does and who doesn't get to see a pre-screening of the film are entirely in the hands of our producers and our marketing team. If you sincerely want an answer to your question, I suggest you contact Motive Marketing or Premise Media.

The Producers?



Code Sample

GOEBBELS ENTERS LAUGHING.

                        GOEBBELS
           Heil, baby!  I just finished the
           morning propaganda broadcasts.

                        LSD
           What did you tell the people?

                        GOEBBELS
           I told them we were launching to
           a thousand theaters!

                        LSD
           Hey, baby, that's good!  How'd we
           come out?

                        GOEBBELS
           We won the Oscar, the Emmy, the
           Tony and the Templeton!

                        LSD
           Groovy!  Darwin's the real tyrant, baby!

THEY SMACK HANDS.

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:13   

Just an aside: It's interesting that on the right wing there is a parallel conversation going on about how much Adolf Hitler supposedly admired and drew inspiration from Islam. I have heard this claim before, mostly from the white supremacist groups that are being tracked and reported on by the SPLC (of which I am a member).

That is not something that I got from Mein Kampf (which I read for college, long, long ago), so I don't know how to assess the validity of this argument, but it is apparently an urban legend among many who are fundy Muslims because it appeals to their particular anti-Semitism, and therefore makes them claim to admire Hitler, which is worrisome. (Relationships between Jews and Arabs, particularly Palestianians, are complicated, however. The Intelligence Report, an SPLC publication, in 2002 reported on a neo-Nazi rally in America in which the Palestinian flag was waved; a counter-protest of Palestinians formed telling the neo-Nazis where to stick it - both groups naturally claimed to hate Israel.)

My personal opinion of Adolf Hitler is that he admired and worshipped Adolf Hitler above all others. At any rate, there is a relationship between current neo-Nazi thought and radical Islamist thought: more on these ties here. This and the rise (once again) of anti-Semitism is a real problem - all this BS about "dangerous Darwinism" is not.

In fact I would assert that for the right wing to pretend that the left is not patriotic, are Nazis/fascists and thus divide this nation as they have, and for Stein to alienate a whole group of people (including secular Israelis - Israel is a center for culture and science) at this crucial time in the history of the Middle East and at a turning point for Israel (with the growth of settlements along with an Arab-Israeli constituency that may soon outnumber Jews in Israel, resulting in perhaps an apartheid system, or universal suffrage that would render Israel a divided nation itself) is outright foolish, short-sightened, and unbelievably self-indulgent.

*edit - corrected spelling*

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Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:16   

Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Can we have Hitler wanted gay marriage / gun control?

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
Kristine



Posts: 3061
Joined: Sep. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:19   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,15:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Can we have Hitler wanted gay marriage / gun control?

Well, he was also a vegetarian... ;)

--------------
Which came first: the shimmy, or the hip?

AtBC Poet Laureate

"I happen to think that this prerequisite criterion of empirical evidence is itself not empirical." - Clive

"Damn you. This means a trip to the library. Again." -- fnxtr

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:30   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Yes. Christianity.
:angry:

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
carlsonjok



Posts: 3324
Joined: May 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:31   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Can we have Hitler wanted gay marriage / gun control?

I am in the midst of watching Ken Burn's WWII documentary and Hitler actually sent many homosexuals to their death in the concentration camps.  Isn't it just like the Darwinists to hate Teh Gayz?  Thank goodness we have religious conservatives as a bulwark against this mindless persecution.

Oh, wait........

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It's natural to be curious about our world, but the scientific method is just one theory about how to best understand it. We live in a democracy, which means we should treat every theory equally. - Steven Colbert, I Am America (and So Can You!)

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:34   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,16:30)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Yes. Christianity.
:angry:

It's like the more you write about it .... the less it effects you.

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"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
silverspoon



Posts: 123
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:34   

In the sequel to EXPELLED Kevin will explore Gregory Mendel's laws of heredity, and how Mendelian Genetic thinking propagated Nazi thinking. Kevin will interview well known theologians of today. Pay no attention when these interviews are interspersed with footage of Nazis goose-stepping, and bodies of dead Jews. And the name of this sequel is-----

From Mendel to the Wannsee Conference.

You値l laugh, you値l cry. But most of all you値l tell Kevin to go pound sand.



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Grand Poobah of the nuclear mafia

  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:46   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:34)
 
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,16:30)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Yes. Christianity.
:angry:

It's like the more you write about it .... the less it effects you.

The way I see it, it's VERY suspicious that Hitler never once mentioned Darwin or evolution. I mean -- what was he trying to hide?

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,16:54   

According to an interview with famed scientist and intellectual, R.C. Sproul,  Ben Stein discloses that our Kevin had nothing to do at all with the film "Expelled."

Nothing at all.

Ben claims that "Expelled" was put together by "very smart people," unlike himself (nice admission, there, Ben), yes, very smart people.

That category, VSP, would exclude our Kevin, who no can haz teh smartz.

Kevin claims to have written part of "Expelled," yet he has not demonstrated that he has the foggiest clue what the film is about.  Who was expelled? Kevin doesn't know.  What's with the Nazis?  Kevin doesn't know?  Were the Nazis expelled?  Kevin doesn't know.

But, I will give Kevin credit for at least having the cahonies to show up on this site and engage people who have teh smartz.  Where's Behe?  Where's Dembski?  Where's Wells?  Cowards all.

Yes, our Kevin is a regular Paul Nelson.  Cut from the same cloth, or Shroud of Turin, as the case may be.

  
Albatrossity2



Posts: 2780
Joined: Mar. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,17:11   

I see that kevineleven is still here    
Quote
kevinmillerxi   Viewing a topic in: After the Bar Closes...   April 07 2008,16:58

Hopefully he is going to provide evidence for his assertion that the scientists mentioned in this comment actually said that "science explains everything".

I'm pretty sure he has that backwards - his compatriots in the bible biz are the ones who think that their book explains everything, and somehow project that evidence-free attitude to those of us in the reality-based world.

[chirp chirp]

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Flesh of the sky, child of the sky, the mind
Has been obligated from the beginning
To create an ordered universe
As the only possible proof of its own inheritance.
- Pattiann Rogers

   
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,17:22   

Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,16:46)
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:34)
Quote (Arden Chatfield @ April 07 2008,16:30)
 
Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,16:16)
Wow.. is there anything that didn't influence Hitler?

Yes. Christianity.
:angry:

It's like the more you write about it .... the less it effects you.

The way I see it, it's VERY suspicious that Hitler never once mentioned Darwin or evolution. I mean -- what was he trying to hide?

Has it been mentioned yet that Darwin's books were banned (and burned) by the Nazis?  Oh it has?  Sorry for the duplication.

Well no doubt Kevin11 went out of his way to make sure this important fact is made in the movie so as not to give the viewer the wrong impression.

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Mr_Christopher



Posts: 1238
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,17:29   

Oh, I forgot to ask...Kevin since you're the resident expert on the relationship between Darwinism and Hitler, could you shed some light on what specific part of Darwin's theory of evolution did the Nazis take and run with?  I ask this because I don't recall Darwin ever writing that blonde hair blued eyed people had the right or obligation to murder everyone else.  I also seem to have missed the part where Jews were respondible for all of Germany's problems.  

Maybe you could provide some quotes by Hitler on the subject or at least the evidence that you and Stein used to concluded Darwin's theory lead to Nazism?

What specific books or other study did you use to come to your Darwinism = Nazism conclusion.  If you will provide the same evidence you used in your research we could go read the same and no doubt come to the same conclusions.

Thanks!

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Uncommon Descent is a moral cesspool, a festering intellectual ghetto that intoxicates and degrades its inhabitants - Stephen Matheson

  
Thought Provoker



Posts: 530
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,18:57   

Hi Mr. Christopher,

You got my attention with banned/burnt Darwin books.

I made the effort to find Nick's Panda's Thumb post on this.

It provides evidence Darwin's ideas were banned by Nazis (which is telling enough).

Do you have any further evidence that Darwin's books were actually burnt?

The irony in the ID/Darwin wars never ceases to amaze me, not matter which side you look at it from.

  
Richardthughes



Posts: 10762
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,19:14   

Ooooh. Origin.. banned. Anything anti-Christian... banned. Hitler sure loved atheism and Darwin..

--------------
"Richardthughes, you magnificent bastard, I stand in awe of you..." : Arden Chatfield
"You magnificent bastard! " : Louis
"ATBC poster child", "I have to agree with Rich.." : DaveTard
"I bow to your superior skills" : deadman_932
"...it was Richardthughes making me lie in bed.." : Kristine

  
khan



Posts: 1528
Joined: May 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,19:33   

Quote (Cheezits @ April 07 2008,16:44)
Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:43)
Louis said, "I wonder if Kevin knows how much Hitler was influenced by christianity, and just how irrelevant to the factual accuracy of either evolutionary biology or christianity such "arguments" are."

I'm fully aware of how Hitler was influenced by christianity, enough to know that he fully rejected Christian ethics as weak and unnatural. His overriding ethic was that only the strongest should be allowed to survive. That was the rule of nature, so we should do everything possible to help evolution along. How does this bear on the factual accuracy of evolutionary biology? Not at all. But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it? All scientific theories and philosophies have consequences, intended or otherwise. So you can't just pretend like the connection doesn't exist. Hitler isn't the only one to pick up on the ethical implications of Darwinism. They were evident to Darwin himself and everyone else who initially heard his theory.

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,14:43)
But evolutionary biology has never been just about the science. Why else would there be such a heated debate over it?


Because scientifically illiterate fundies can't understand it and can't cope with the truth.  They've had it drummed into them by their pastors that if evolution is true then God can't exist and their lives have no meaning.  Don't blame biologists for making fundies believe they can't live without their fairy tale version of God!

It is very common for cranks/loons to accuse rational folks of being unreasonable/emotional when they point out factual/logical errors.

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"It's as if all those words, in their hurry to escape from the loony, have fallen over each other, forming scrambled heaps of meaninglessness." -damitall

That's so fucking stupid it merits a wing in the museum of stupid. -midwifetoad

Frequency is just the plural of wavelength...
-JoeG

  
melatonin



Posts: 8
Joined: Sep. 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,20:16   

Quote (Mr_Christopher @ April 07 2008,17:29)
I ask this because I don't recall Darwin ever writing that blonde hair blued eyed people had the right or obligation to murder everyone else.

Arthur de Gobineau was big on blue-eyed aryan hunks. They were descended from Adam, don't ya know?

Unsurprisingly, Hitler liked this dude a lot.

  
steve_h



Posts: 535
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,20:19   

Quote (silverspoon @ April 07 2008,22:34)
In the sequel to EXPELLED Kevin will explore Gregory Mendel's laws of heredity, and how Mendelian Genetic thinking propagated Nazi thinking. Kevin will interview well known theologians of today. Pay no attention when these interviews are interspersed with footage of Nazis goose-stepping, and bodies of dead Jews. And the name of this sequel is-----

From Mendel to the Wannsee Conference.

You値l laugh, you値l cry. But most of all you値l tell Kevin to go pound sand.


I was just thinking that "Expelled 2: A different viewpoint" - coming to lots of theaters near you for a very short time - would show a clip of Dembski; A monotone narrator would point out that Demsbki was a Christianist and an Intelligent Designist and they would suddenly cut to:

A concentration camp (not any of the ones used in the first film). Ben Stein is looking very, very sad because he has just learned that Jews (Nooooh, not again!) were exterminated there as well. Furthermore it turns out that most of the people who carried out the orders were Christianists (cut back to Dembski smiling, then cut back to the CC again) by people using principles of intelligent (human) selection to intelligently weed out the poorer races (cut back to smiling Dembski again, then back to the CC) and direct the human species to a Christianist Ideal (Adam, Noah, whatever) (cut back to extremely smug looking Demsbki who thinks he's in a film called "Heroes of Intelligent Design", then back to the CC again).

Ben Stein explains how Christianism leads to "Christianist Language" leads to genocide - or Kevin Miller does it for him, doesn't matter really so long as everyone sticks to strictly documentarian standards.

  
Wesley R. Elsberry



Posts: 4902
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:25   

Kevin Miller:

Quote

I think something that all of you--and Mr. Elsberry--are missing here is that there's a big difference between experimental science, which tends more toward empircism, and historical science, which tends more toward rationalism. So of course, it's ridiculous to say that if there is a scientific consensus that 2+2=4, we should immediately hold such an equation suspect. That's because this is an empirical statement. No interpretation required. Worldview doesn't play a role. But when we're talking about an historical science, such as paleontology, it's all about interpretation of evidence. And in such cases, our presuppositions going into the investigation will have a significant effect on the conclusions we come out with.

Posted by: Kevin Miller | April 07, 2008 at 09:20 AM


I heard YEC Norm Geisler in 1987 saying much the same thing. It doesn't seem to have improved since then; not making sense doesn't usually get better on its own.

Back in 1987, I was Mr. Elsberry. Now, though, I'm either Wesley or I'm Dr. Elsberry.

Now, this part is really interesting:

Quote

But when we're talking about an historical science, such as paleontology, it's all about interpretation of evidence. And in such cases, our presuppositions going into the investigation will have a significant effect on the conclusions we come out with.


I take it that Kevin hasn't yet bothered to get and read the reference I've been asking him to expound upon:

Quote

Pearson, P.N.; Shackleton, N.J.; and Hall, M.A., 1997. Stable isotopic evidence for the sympatric divergence of _Globigerinoides_trilobus_ and _Orbulina_universa_ (planktonic foraminifera). Journal of the Geological Society, London, v.154, p.295-302.


This is a paleontological research paper. In it, there is a test of a hypothesis that I think one would have to strain quite a bit to come up with excuses not to call it an experiment. But Kevin apparently knows as little about this paleontologic research as he does about pre-screening decisions for the movie he wrote.

Concerning (1), part of the paradigm-describing business is pretty much that one only sees it in retrospect. I already addressed this, though; look for "Kuhn".

Concerning (2), I take it Kevin is unfamiliar with discussion of primary and secondary causes and the work of theologians such as John Haught. I don't recall having requested an Inquisitorial house call.

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"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." - Dorothy Parker

    
don_quixote



Posts: 110
Joined: Aug. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:34   

Hi Kevin! As you will probably want to publish a book to accompany the film, I took the liberty of doing the front cover for you. From what I've heard of the movie so far, I think it should be eminently suitable...




  
Arden Chatfield



Posts: 6657
Joined: Jan. 2006

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:35   

Quote (Richardthughes @ April 07 2008,19:14)
Ooooh. Origin.. banned. Anything anti-Christian... banned. Hitler sure loved atheism and Darwin..

Hitler was very clever, you see: he only banned books on atheism and evolution to trick future generations into thinking that the holocaust wasn't based on atheistic Darwinism. That's also why he invoked God and Jesus so much in Mein Kampf -- to put future researchers off the scent. That devious bastard!

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"Rich is just mad because he thought all titties had fur on them until last week when a shorn transvestite ruined his childhood dreams by jumping out of a spider man cake and man boobing him in the face lips." - Erasmus

  
Henry J



Posts: 4788
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:44   

Has anybody mentioned that eugenics is closer to artificial selection than to natural selection?

Not to mention also that if evolution teaches anything, it teaches that more variety = better chance of surviving a disaster that wipes out 1 or 2 of the current varieties. Otoh, less variety = the next disaster might wipe out the 1 variety that the eugenics program left intact (i.e., oops).

Henry

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:48   

Quote (Henry J @ April 07 2008,19:44)
Has anybody mentioned that eugenics is closer to artificial selection than to natural selection?

Not to mention also that if evolution teaches anything, it teaches that more variety = better chance of surviving a disaster that wipes out 1 or 2 of the current varieties. Otoh, less variety = the next disaster might wipe out the 1 variety that the eugenics program left intact (i.e., oops).

Henry

Even if they have, it bears repeating.  Kevin probably needs to hear this several times.

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"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,21:53   

In 1938 the Nazi "Office of Racial Policy" publication Inromationsdienst Martin Luther痴 advice on the 菟roper treatment of Jews was given prominent display:

Quote
... to put their synagogues and schools to fire, and what will not burn, to cover with earth and rubble so that no-one will ever again see anything there but cinders ... Second, one should tear down and destroy their houses, for they do also in there what they do in their schools and synagogues ... And third, one should confiscate their prayer books and Talmud, in which idolatry and lies, slander and blasphemy is taught From Proctor 1988: 88.


The founder of Protestant Christianity was a greater inspiration to the Nazis than any scientist.  Science, politicized by the same conditions that radicalized both Left, and Right, was used as justification for actions long advocated as 鼎hristian.  The political philosophy that was called Social Darwinism only in the 1940s was infuential in the organization of the Society for Racial Hygiene (Gesellschaft fr Rassenhygiene) through the efforts of Alfred Poletz and to a lesser degree Ernst Haeckel and others.  Poletz was a believer in Nordic superiority, and he quickly formed a secret group of racists active within the Society who were strongly influenced by the racial theories of Arthur Comte de Gobineau published in the early 1850s (well before Darwin's books).  This followed the creationist theories of the "pre-Adamites" who went so far as to claim that Negroes had been created on the Genesis fifth day with "other beasts of the field."

Finding 19th century American racists is not hard.  Finding American fascists is not hard, even today.  Showing that they owe their bigotry to evolutionary biology is a fallacy.  For example, as Kehl himself observed, the 1936 Nazi Party recommended reading list on human heredity, (Rassenkunde: Eine Auswahl des wichtigsten Scrifttums aus dem Gebit der Rassenkunde, Vererbungslehre, Rassenpflege und Bevlkerunspolitik) mentioned only two non-German authors: American Madison Grant's Passing of the Great Race (translated into German in 1925, and French Arthur Comte de Gobineau's The inequality of Human Races (1853-1855).  

Gobineau had a strong influence on Grant's work and was very influencial with German,  American, and British racists for that matter, and published his book well before Darwin's works became public.  

Robert N. Proctor's 1988  book Racial Hygene:Medicine Under the Nazis (Boston: Harvard University Press) has a much better analysis of not only the connections between international racists, but the intellectual associations of the Nazi death machine than the miserable crap by Weikart.

There is an excellent passage in Evans pg. 92-93:

Quote
"The minutes [taken by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt] for the second day's meeting, on 17 April 1943, recorded a statement by Ribbentrop, in Hitler's presence, to a point made by Horthy: "On Horthy's retort, what should he do with the Jews then, after he had pretty well taken all means of living from them-- he surely couldn't beat them to death-- the Reich Foreign Minister [Ribbentrop] replied that the Jews must either be annihilated or taken to concentration camps. There is no other way."

Hitler almost immediately confirmed Ribbentrop's explicitly murderous statement at some length: Hitler: "Where the Jews were left to themselves, as for example in Poland, gruesome poverty and degeneracy had ruled. They were just pure parasites. One had fundamentally cleared up this state of affairs in Poland. If the Jews there didn't want to work [in Third Reich concentration camps], they were shot. If they couldn't work they had to perish. They had to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli, from which a healthy body could be infected. That was not cruel, if one remembered that even innocent natural creatures like hares and deer had to be killed so that no harm was caused. Why should one spare the beasts who wanted to bring us Bolshevism more? Nations who did not rid themselves of Jews perished." (references and footnotes are found in Evans, 2001:92-93)


Here we have Hitler, in his argument to Hungary's Admiral Horthy, invoking not an bermench racist position, but an anti-Bolshevik, and nationalist one.  If Hitler tried to draw rhetorical support from Social Darwinism arguing in Mein Kampf, it is not evident anywhere from the text, and in any event was at most merely a twig on the trunk of his anti-Semitism. His opposition is to what he considered a Marxist threat, not drawn from Darwin, which was at most a rationalization of his hatred than its origin.  Further, the theoretical models and dominant metaphors Hitler drew from did  not include evolution at any event, but the Germ Theory of Disease, and Christianity.

Edited by Dr.GH on April 07 2008,20:00

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
Henry J



Posts: 4788
Joined: Mar. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,22:40   

Quote
They were descended from Adam, don't ya know?


Wasn't everybody? ;)

Quote
Quote
So of course, it's ridiculous to say that if there is a scientific consensus that 2+2=4, we should immediately hold such an equation suspect. That's because this is an empirical statement. No interpretation required. Worldview doesn't play a role.


Empirical statement? No, 2+2=4 is a logical deduction from the axioms and definitions of the integer number system (or from axiomatic set theory if one starts at the beginning). The next two statements are actually correct - no interpretation of evidence is involved, and no role for worldview.

Henry

  
godsilove



Posts: 36
Joined: Mar. 2008

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,22:49   

Quote (kevinmillerxi @ April 07 2008,13:48)
JohnW: I understand your skepticism re: Weikart. I was skeptical when I picked up the book as well. And Weikart, himself, was skeptical when he started down the road to researching the topic. And in no way does he draw a direct line from Darwin to Hitler or say that Darwinian science was the defining influence on Hitler's ethics. Hitler's influences are complicated and difficult to trace, but there's no doubt that Darwinian science was a significant factor. Just where or how he imbibed these ideas is still not quite clear. The book is well researched and well substantiated by quotes from original sources as well as other scholarly works on the topic. This is not a shrill tome that's bent on proving Wiekart's thesis no matter what. I do believe it is a fair and balanced treatment of the evidence.

Kevin, I think the key issue is why you decided to put the Reductio ad Hitlerum in Expelled, to begin with.  It's clear that a variety of different influences, including Nietzsche and Luther, contributed to Nazism.  Does the film mention them?  Remember, you're marketing this film to schoolchildren as well.  Don't you think the way the film handles the issue gives the false impression that Darwin was responsible for Hitler?  

What is it meant to accomplish?  Even IF Darwin was responsible for Hitler, an appeal to consequences is a fallacious way to try to disprove something.  If good science is the ultimate goal of the film (and I really doubt that it is), then the film is giving viewers a terrible science lesson.

   
Doc Bill



Posts: 1039
Joined: April 2007

(Permalink) Posted: April 07 2008,23:24   

Once again our Kevin expounds on that about which he knows nothing: paleontology!

Not empirical, eh?  So, I guess paleontologists don't measure bone lengths and widths.  Yeah, someone else must do that.  I guess paleontologists don't make any measurements at all.  Nope, someone else must do that like chemists and physicists.  I guess paleontologists spend their time walking around the Badlands with their picks and shovels, contemplating their worldview.

Yeah, Kevin, that's what paleontologists do.

  
Dr.GH



Posts: 2137
Joined: May 2002

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,00:10   

Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 07 2008,16:57)
Hi Mr. Christopher,

You got my attention with banned/burnt Darwin books.

I made the effort to find Nick's Panda's Thumb post on this.

It provides evidence Darwin's ideas were banned by Nazis (which is telling enough).

Do you have any further evidence that Darwin's books were actually burnt?

The irony in the ID/Darwin wars never ceases to amaze me, not matter which side you look at it from.

Guidelines from Die Bcherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279  

Die Bucherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, published these collection evaluation "guidelines" during the second round of "purifications" (saberung).
 
6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufkl舐ung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (H臘kel).

Guidelines from Die Bcherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279
6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (H臘kel)

"Purified" was by fire, just like the Christian Neo-fascist Christian Reconstruction followers of Rushdoony, and his Chalcedon Institute would do to non-christians today.  Oh, and it just happens that the Discovery Institute's initial funding came from the Chalcedon Institute's "angel," Howard Ahmanson Jr.

--------------
"Science is the horse that pulls the cart of philosophy."

L. Susskind, 2004 "SMOLIN VS. SUSSKIND: THE ANTHROPIC PRINCIPLE"

   
stevestory



Posts: 10393
Joined: Oct. 2005

(Permalink) Posted: April 08 2008,00:27   

Quote (Dr.GH @ April 08 2008,01:10)
Quote (Thought Provoker @ April 07 2008,16:57)
Hi Mr. Christopher,

You got my attention with banned/burnt Darwin books.

I made the effort to find Nick's Panda's Thumb post on this.

It provides evidence Darwin's ideas were banned by Nazis (which is telling enough).

Do you have any further evidence that Darwin's books were actually burnt?

The irony in the ID/Darwin wars never ceases to amaze me, not matter which side you look at it from.

Guidelines from Die Bcherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279  

Die Bucherei, the official Nazi journal for lending libraries, published these collection evaluation "guidelines" during the second round of "purifications" (saberung).
 
6. Schriften weltanschaulichen und lebenskundlichen Charakters, deren Inhalt die falsche naturwissenschaftliche Aufkl舐ung eines primitiven Darwinismus und Monismus ist (H臘kel).

Guidelines from Die Bcherei 2:6 (1935), p. 279
6. Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (H臘kel)

"Purified" was by fire, just like the Christian Neo-fascist Christian Reconstruction followers of Rushdoony, and his Chalcedon Institute would do to non-christians today.  Oh, and it just happens that the Discovery Institute's initial funding came from the Chalcedon Institute's "angel," Howard Ahmanson Jr.

Instead of selectively banning people like PZ, Kevin should be selecting for his target audience. He could just have a little question like

"Do you know anything whatsoever about the history of Europe over the last 1,000 years?
_yes
_no"

anybody who checked no has a chance of falling for Kev's BS and they could admit that person.

Edited by stevestory on April 08 2008,01:28

   
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